Print Page - 60% Keyboard PCB

geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: cpeterson19 on Mon, 16 May 2016, 10:52:41

Title: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Mon, 16 May 2016, 10:52:41

Im looking into building a 60% keyboard and im just curious what the best PCB is. Is it NerD, FaceW, GH60, etc.

Any input is appreciated, thanks!

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SKD on Mon, 16 May 2016, 11:22:09

I just posted a similar thread about building a 60% board too lol. What requirements do you need for your board? For me the 2 main features I wanted were backlighting and programmable layers and so far I've gone with the Gh60 Satan as the official Satan doesn't support backlighting.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Mon, 16 May 2016, 14:30:17

Quote from: SKD on Mon, 16 May 2016, 11:22:09

I just posted a similar thread about building a 60% board too lol. What requirements do you need for your board? For me the 2 main features I wanted were backlighting and programmable layers and so far I've gone with the Gh60 Satan as the official Satan doesn't support backlighting.

I dont need backlit keys, i just would like the underneath and sides of the PCB to glow, and i just ordered zealio switches for it but yea! and where did you order the GH60?
Why didnt you choose the NerD or the FaceW?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: i3oilermaker on Tue, 17 May 2016, 08:21:34

GH60 available here: http://techkeys.us/collections/accessories/products/gh60

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SKD on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:10:30

Quote from: cpeterson19 on Mon, 16 May 2016, 14:30:17

Quote from: SKD on Mon, 16 May 2016, 11:22:09
I just posted a similar thread about building a 60% board too lol. What requirements do you need for your board? For me the 2 main features I wanted were backlighting and programmable layers and so far I've gone with the Gh60 Satan as the official Satan doesn't support backlighting.

I dont need backlit keys, i just would like the underneath and sides of the PCB to glow, and i just ordered zealio switches for it but yea! and where did you order the GH60?
Why didnt you choose the NerD or the FaceW?

I ordered a Satan Gh60 off aliexpress. The main reason I got the Satan is the price, I ordered the pcb with diodes and resistors already soldered, 70 cherry red switches, 70 LEDs, stabilisers and the plate for $88 shipped to me from aliexpress. The FaceW and NerD pcbs are about $55-60 on their own, add the cost of the plate, switches and everything else they will be way over $88! Them 2 pcbs are probably better quality but for my first build I don't plan on spending a lot and I'm sure the Satan pcb will be just fine for my needs. Oh and apparently they don't do some led customisation I need where the Satan can. Will see how it turns out.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:14:30

Quote from: SKD on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:10:30

Quote from: cpeterson19 on Mon, 16 May 2016, 14:30:17
Quote from: SKD on Mon, 16 May 2016, 11:22:09
I just posted a similar thread about building a 60% board too lol. What requirements do you need for your board? For me the 2 main features I wanted were backlighting and programmable layers and so far I've gone with the Gh60 Satan as the official Satan doesn't support backlighting.

I dont need backlit keys, i just would like the underneath and sides of the PCB to glow, and i just ordered zealio switches for it but yea! and where did you order the GH60?
Why didnt you choose the NerD or the FaceW?

I ordered a Satan Gh60 off aliexpress. The main reason I got the Satan is the price, I ordered the pcb with diodes and resistors already soldered, 70 cherry red switches, 70 LEDs, stabilisers and the plate for $88 shipped to me from aliexpress. The FaceW and NerD pcbs are about $55-60 on their own, add the cost of the plate, switches and everything else they will be way over $88! Them 2 pcbs are probably better quality but for my first build I don't plan on spending a lot and I'm sure the Satan pcb will be just fine for my needs. Oh and apparently they don't do some led customisation I need where the Satan can. Will see how it turns out.

Thanks that's a lot of help I just wish the gh60 wasn't green!

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SKD on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:19:18

I really would have liked an 'official' GH60 but it lacks full backlighting without some extras AND the fact that it was green as well lol. But if you are using a plate I guess you can't really see the green pcb.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:16:57

Quote from: SKD on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:19:18

I really would have liked an 'official' GH60 but it lacks full backlighting without some extras AND the fact that it was green as well lol. But if you are using a plate I guess you can't really see the green pcb.

Why did the official gh60 stop? Also is programming on it easy?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:19:59

Quote from: cpeterson19 on Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:16:57

Quote from: SKD on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:19:18
I really would have liked an 'official' GH60 but it lacks full backlighting without some extras AND the fact that it was green as well lol. But if you are using a plate I guess you can't really see the green pcb.

Why did the official gh60 stop? Also is programming on it easy?

The official GH60 was developed years ago so at the time it had the features people wanted. The official group buy stalled for a long time and is currently in recovery mode.

All these other PCBs are much newer thus having the 'fancier' things people look for now.

Many developments have been made in the way of mechanical keyboards in the last 3 years.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:21:34

So if I order the gh60 from tech keys that's a fine pcb? Also are the resisters and diodes pre soldered? And does the gh60 support LEDs underneath the pcb?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 17 May 2016, 12:32:29

The GH60 was originally designed as a group buy started in March 2013(!) but the guy who started it disappeared. A rescue effort was launched last year and is ongoing, so they are finally appearing in the wild. It never really stopped so much as didn't start...

For firmware you can use TMK or EasyAVR (both have threads in this subforum, EasyAVR is a gui so very easy) and it's about as hard as any other board to actually flash, that is to say easy enough that anyone can do it.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Tue, 17 May 2016, 13:14:47

Awesome thank you! Does the gh60 support LEDs underneath the pcb like the nerd 60 does? Also are the resistors and diodes already soldered?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: i3oilermaker on Tue, 17 May 2016, 14:17:53

It does not have on-board support for under-mounted LEDs

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 17 May 2016, 14:25:20

You could use some of the switch LED pads if you don't use them for backlighting, a couple of resistors on the expansion header would be enough for that :thumb:

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 12:33:37

As a crazy 60% guy I can say that I have tested almost all 60% PCB's (except for the insane expensive 356 and KMAC , and Duck Viper/Eagle) . I use keyboards as tools so stability and compatibility with any operating system, BIOS etc... is very important, also build quality, fluff comes on the last place.
So my top is:
1. NerD60 - great hardware, original firmware is quite buggy for my taste but you can convert it to TMK and that makes it the best 60% ever, you have also backlight and underlight.
2. GH60 (the original not Satan clones) - the PCB's from the original GB are OK'ish, decent hardware quality. Runs TMK, Easy AVR, easy to program, good stability, great tool :) The PCB's from techkeys.us are way better from the quality point of view, I like them a lot! No fluff for GH60, if you want LED's this is not the board :) You can put just a few (WASD, Esc, Caps, Fn)
3. faceW - very good hardware, backlight support, can be programmed with just a text editor, you have also a GUI but I hate it. The keyboard ia pretty much useless under BIOS.
4. winkeyless.kr boards (B.face, X2 and co) - very good hardware, only GUI for programming and only from Windows or Mac (if you use Linux you are dead), backlight, underlight, rgb in word fluff :P same problems in BIOS as faceW. It's on 4th place because faceW can be programmed on any OS with just a text editor.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Wed, 18 May 2016, 12:56:48

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 12:33:37

As a crazy 60% guy I can say that I have tested almost all 60% PCB's (except for the insane expensive 356 and KMAC , and Duck Viper/Eagle) . I use keyboards as tools so stability and compatibility with any operating system, BIOS etc... is very important, also build quality, fluff comes on the last place.
So my top is:
1. NerD60 - great hardware, original firmware is quite buggy for my taste but you can convert it to TMK and that makes it the best 60% ever, you have also backlight and underlight.
2. GH60 (the original not Satan clones) - the PCB's from the original GB are OK'ish, decent hardware quality. Runs TMK, Easy AVR, easy to program, good stability, great tool :) The PCB's from techkeys.us are way better from the quality point of view, I like them a lot! No fluff for GH60, if you want LED's this is not the board :) You can put just a few (WASD, Esc, Caps, Fn)
3. faceW - very good hardware, backlight support, can be programmed with just a text editor, you have also a GUI but I hate it. The keyboard ia pretty much useless under BIOS.
4. winkeyless.kr boards (B.face, X2 and co) - very good hardware, only GUI for programming and only from Windows or Mac (if you use Linux you are dead), backlight, underlight, rgb in word fluff :P same problems in BIOS as faceW. It's on 4th place because faceW can be programmed on any OS with just a text editor.

Thank you that is very helpful i actually ordered the satan gh60 pcb due to its price and also that it is my first keyboard build. have you played around at all with the satan?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:07:27

No, I have never worked on a Satan PCB. I don't care about LED's so I'd rather get a GH60 :)

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: cpeterson19 on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:12:07

Fair enough! ^-^

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: need on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:16:56

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:07:27

No, I have never worked on a Satan PCB. I don't care about LED's so I'd rather get a GH60 :)

People always say GON PCBs are exceedingly good quality, does it deserve its status in your opinion?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 15:42:28

Quote from: need on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:16:56

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 18 May 2016, 14:07:27
No, I have never worked on a Satan PCB. I don't care about LED's so I'd rather get a GH60 :)
People always say GON PCBs are exceedingly good quality, does it deserve its status in your opinion?

I have 3 of them so I'd say : Yes!

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Wed, 18 May 2016, 16:14:13

So Gon > GH60 from Techkeys > GH60 from GB in terms of build quality? I've given my GB board some abuse (repeated desoldering of a couple of the switches) and the pads are still perfect so the only improvement I can see would be a through hole mounted USB port so it's a bit tougher.

Another consideration when chosing a PCB is the layout - Gon and Winkeyless don't support 1-1.75 split shift which is a deal breaker for me, a big FN and a 1.5-1-1-1.5 bottom row means I instantly forgot about needing dedicated arrow keys.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MediocreBadGuy23 on Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:14:18

So where does the KC60 stand with all these other PCBs. I have the choice between the KC60 and GH60 and I think I read somewhere that they're the same except the GH60 has ISO support (which I don't need)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Thu, 19 May 2016, 23:50:19

KC60 is another low-end PCB, not saying it's bad, it will do the job and it's OK for a first project. I would take an original GH60, but that's me.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 02:37:46

@DanielT, just out of curiosity, what do means when you say high quality hardware? The components used (Most important being MCU, which is almost always Atmel), PCB quality, etc?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: need on Fri, 20 May 2016, 04:55:55

@MOZ that's what I'm confused about too, hence my question above.

I smell BS with this quality thing.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 05:40:22

Quote from: need on Fri, 20 May 2016, 04:55:55

@MOZ that's what I'm confused about too, hence my question above.

I smell BS with this quality thing.

Hahaha, not saying it's BS, but maybe some placebo (More expensive = better). Just want to know what are the signs of a quality GON vs cheap KC60/Satan, PCB thickness, alignment of holes, finish of the solder mask, or something else?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Fri, 20 May 2016, 06:36:33

I know the compenents are the same, that is not an issue, but the PCB quality is the problem. The cheap PCB's have a lot of flex, you see part of the material comming off on the edges, the edges are not smooth, the solder pads are thin and you end up very easy with lifted pads. The material used for the traces and pads is of lower quality. If the PCB comes presoldered the components are sdered like ****, cold joints. You want me to go on?
I'm not a snob that shells out $$$ on a board only because is a ****ing 356 or made by Angels, but I do want quality. And I'm talking from experience, at least in the 60% keyboard area I've had a lot of experience, I have built almost 20 boards and my current collection consists in 3 NerD60, 2 GH60, 1 faceW, 1 B.face and Alps64 prototype, all built by me with different setups (thick alu plate, 1.5mm alu plate, acrylic plate, PCB mount, steel plate, heavy alu case, light alu case, stock plastic case) . I have compared a lot of designs and I stick to my opinion.
For example a PCB mount NerD60 feels like typing on the softest surface, the density of the PCB material is just right, you don't feel flex.

But I understand why cheap board appeal to people, many of them change the boards like socks and lose interest in this hobby after a year (saw that so often...) , I consider keyboards tools, and I need good tools because I use them for my work. Sometimes I sell one of my boards only to get something better (and no, not for fluff like RGB and pulsating lights or futuristic cases but for better layouts, firmware or PCB quality).
But I'm an old fart, I have other priorities :))

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:08:56

I know I may sound like an arrogant know it all,
- Cheap assembly and PCB flex is definitely worrying
- Residual flux and unclean edges can be attributed to cheap assembly houses, they don't make a difference in terms of functionality or quality of PCB, however I can understand why you'd want a nice clean PCB, we are all KB enthusiasts here.
- Regarding the quality of traces/pads - almost all PCBs will use copper, I think the issues with lifting pads and harder to solder are because the quality Korean PCBs have HASL finish, the GH60 and Satan PCBs use ENIG. HASL has lead, so easy to solder, the process involves dipping the whole PCB with exposed copper in a solder bath and then using hot air to level and remove excess solder. So the pads on a HASL board are already tinned. Pads are thicker but no levelled correctly, this doesn't really make a difference for keyboard PCBs as we aren't using BGA chips. ENIG has no lead, rather it has a thin layer of immersion gold. That is why the pads are thin but all level. ENIG finish doesn't involve dipping a solder bath. No lead means higher temperatures are required. ENIG is ROHS compliant.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:29:36

That is some very interesting information :)
I know that basically the technology is the same with some variations, but the small details make all the difference. When you touch a good quality PCB if feels smooth and solid, soldering is a pleasure and you can make clean soldering joints without any effort, and when you have to solder SMD it makes all the difference.
With a cheap PCB, well it does the same job but it's not the same.

What I don't get is this, people complain that a good PCB is too expensive but never have a problem to shell out insane ammounts of cash for artisan caps and expensive keysets and fancy cases, they should know that the end product is as good as the worst component they have used... And I don't want to go in the Gateron land, that is another story I don't get...

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:37:18

Don't ask me about Artisans and chunks of aluminum slabs.

As I said, HASL has the effect that it is higher quality due to ease of soldering and reworkability. ENIG is generally considered more superior but for keyboards it provide no advantage over HASL, and is less friendly for new builders.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:45:10

Thanks for the info :) I have learned something very interesting today :)

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: need on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:56:14

Alu slaps are like monuments.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:58:14

Quote from: need on Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:56:14

Alu slaps are like monuments.

Yeah aluminium slaps take all the fun out of everything.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 09:15:05

Monument, reminds me, we are yet to see a ceramic/marble/glass keyboard case, right?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 20 May 2016, 09:16:49

Quote from: MOZ on Fri, 20 May 2016, 09:15:05

Monument, reminds me, we are yet to see a ceramic/marble/glass keyboard case, right?

I've seen marble wrist supports and discussions on glass keycaps but that is about it.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MediocreBadGuy23 on Sat, 21 May 2016, 15:35:50

Quote from: DanielT on Thu, 19 May 2016, 23:50:19

KC60 is another low-end PCB, not saying it's bad, it will do the job and it's OK for a first project. I would take an original GH60, but that's me.

What's the difference between the two? The GH60 is better quality? I thought the GH60 was better for backlighting and RGB and it can do ISO. But that the KC60 could do all that too except the ISO.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:46:11

Since there's good discussion going on here I think a comparison table would be good - corrections, blank fills and missing PCBs appreciated. Might make a good sticky?

PCB	Backlighting	Firmware	Underglow	ISO	Right shift options	RoHS

B.face (Winkeyless)	Single colour	ps2avrU	1 colour top, RGB bottom	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1
B.face X2 (Winkeyless)	Single colour	ps2avrU	RGB top & bottom	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1
FaceW (Sprit)	Single colour	ps2avrU	Yes (unknown)	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1
GH60 (GB)	Not yet	EasyAVR / TMK	No	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75	Yes
GH60 (Techkeys)	Not yet	EasyAVR / TMK	No	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75	Yes
GH60 Satan	Single colour	EasyAVR / TMK	No	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75	Yes
KC60	Single colour	EasyAVR / TMK	No	No	2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75
NerD60 ver2.0 (Gon)	Single colour	NerDy GUI	Single colour on sides	Yes	2.75, 1.75-1

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: kiwi99 on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:58:54

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:46:11

Since there's good discussion going on here I think a comparison table would be good - corrections, blank fills and missing PCBs appreciated. Might make a good sticky?

PCB Backlighting Firmware Underglow ISO Right shift options RoHS
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU 1 colour top, RGB bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU RGB top & bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
FaceW (Sprit) Single colour ps2avrU Yes (unknown) Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
GH60 (GB) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 (Techkeys) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 Satan Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
KC60 Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No No 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75
NerD60 ver2.0 (Gon) Single colour NerDy GUI Single colour on sides Yes 2.75, 1.75-1

maybe change Right shift options to supported layouts to cover some other distinctions, I would do it just don't know how to do the fancy tables and have a legend, i.e. WKL - 1.5-1-1.5 bottom row, HHKB - split r-shift + 2x1u backspace, STP - stepped caps lock support

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: MediocreBadGuy23 on Sat, 21 May 2016, 17:23:32

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:46:11

Since there's good discussion going on here I think a comparison table would be good - corrections, blank fills and missing PCBs appreciated. Might make a good sticky?

PCB Backlighting Firmware Underglow ISO Right shift options RoHS
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU 1 colour top, RGB bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU RGB top & bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
FaceW (Sprit) Single colour ps2avrU Yes (unknown) Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
GH60 (GB) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 (Techkeys) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 Satan Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
KC60 Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No No 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75
NerD60 ver2.0 (Gon) Single colour NerDy GUI Single colour on sides Yes 2.75, 1.75-1

Thanks so much for this info.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 17:48:29

Quote from: kiwi99 on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:58:54

maybe change Right shift options to supported layouts to cover some other distinctions, I would do it just don't know how to do the fancy tables and have a legend, i.e. WKL - 1.5-1-1.5 bottom row, HHKB - split r-shift + 2x1u backspace, STP - stepped caps lock support

I thought about caps lock but they all do both so I didn't add it. Just looked and they all support split backspace too, so unless I'm missing some boards there's no point adding that either.

Bottom row would be good to add, can you think of any options that can't be made by looking at these? Might need to split them up more if the left side works but the right doesn't...

(http://i.imgur.com/AsNJDPH.png)

Raw keyboard-layout-editor code below for portability.

[{a:6,w:0.5},"1",{x:0.5,a:7,w:1.25},"1.25",{w:1.25},"1.25",{w:1.25},"1.25",{w:6.25},"6.25",{w:1.25},"1.25",{w:1.25},"1.25",{w:1.25},"1.25",{w:1.25},"1.25"],
[{a:6,w:0.5},"2",{x:0.5,a:7,w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1},"1",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:6},"6",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1},"1",{w:1},"1",{w:1.5},"1.5"],
[{a:6,w:0.5},"3",{x:0.5,a:7,w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:7},"7",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1},"1",{w:1},"1",{w:1.5},"1.5"],
[{a:6,w:0.5},"4",{x:0.5,a:7,w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1},"1",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:7},"7",{w:1.5},"1.5",{w:1},"1",{w:1.5},"1.5"]

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Sun, 22 May 2016, 12:32:46

Very good idea to make an inventory with all the PCB's. You can add for NerD60 for firmware also TMK and in the future maybe also Easy AVR. For more details take a look here https://deskthority.net/wiki/Converting_NerD60_to_TMK

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 22 May 2016, 19:29:47

Nice! Anywhere TMK can go EasyAVR can, they will have to be italic or something though - if you need this list you probably shouldn't be playing with the bootloader...

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Mon, 23 May 2016, 02:15:10

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 22 May 2016, 19:29:47

Nice! Anywhere TMK can go EasyAVR can, they will have to be italic or something though - if you need this list you probably shouldn't be playing with the bootloader...

Yep, that is true :)) If you don't have experience with these kind of things you can break your board, in reality it is little you can do to make an atmega32u4 unusable but if you are inexperienced you will have a hard time to bring it back to life.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 09:26:40

I am trying to decide on either the GH60 at techkeys or its fork at eBay, I would appreciate a lot your feedback on them regarding the layout at the bottom, that I think either can take and considering I do not need backlighting and working with it at the BIOS level is a priority.

The bottom row I need is 1.25-1.25-1.5-7-1.5-1.25-1.25

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48

I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:36:58

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48

I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

I am totally positive about the support for ISO, splitted right shift in 1+1.75, central 7u space bar with 1.5u mods at both sides; but, the only part I am not that sure is the two 1.25u mods at each side; however, that is an standard distribution of modifiers, therefore it is very likely that can be fit. I will try it with my GON this weekend, I suppose the arrangement at the bottom is pretty close to the GH60, but the Nerd60 has some issues with my BIOS.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:00:49

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:36:58

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48
I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

I am totally positive about the support for ISO, splitted right shift in 1+1.75, central 7u space bar with 1.5u mods at both sides; but, the only part I am not that sure is the two 1.25u mods at each side; however, that is an standard distribution of modifiers, therefore it is very likely that can be fit. I will try it with my GON this weekend, I suppose the arrangement at the bottom is pretty close to the GH60, but the Nerd60 has some issues with my BIOS.

Why don't you comvert your NerD to TMK? I did that on 3 boards and never regreted it a moment.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:09:16

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48

I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

GH60 should support that layout -- it uses the two outermost key positions from the 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25 bottom row, and the innermost key positions from the 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row. 1.5-1 takes up the same physical space as 1.25-1.25, and I believe the logical key positions of the two outermost modifiers are the same regardless of which of those two configurations is used. It's not common, so it's not listed explicitly, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:18:51

Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:09:16

Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48
I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

GH60 should support that layout -- it uses the two outermost key positions from the 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25 bottom row, and the innermost key positions from the 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row. 1.5-1 takes up the same physical space as 1.25-1.25, and I believe the logical key positions of the two outermost modifiers are the same regardless of which of those two configurations is used. It's not common, so it's not listed explicitly, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I will give it a try with a GH60 from techkeys, I do not need backlighting and I want my board to be fully compatible with my BIOS, so I will explore that option. One last question: Does the GH60 have support for in switch LEDs? I may want at least the Caps Lock.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:20:38

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:18:51

Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:09:16
Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48
I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

GH60 should support that layout -- it uses the two outermost key positions from the 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25 bottom row, and the innermost key positions from the 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row. 1.5-1 takes up the same physical space as 1.25-1.25, and I believe the logical key positions of the two outermost modifiers are the same regardless of which of those two configurations is used. It's not common, so it's not listed explicitly, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I will give it a try with a GH60 from techkeys, I do not need backlighting and I want my board to be fully compatible with my BIOS, so I will explore that option. One last question: Does the GH60 have support for in switch LEDs? I may want at least the Caps Lock.

It has pads for LEDs. I'm not sure exactly how they are wired up, but if you only want caps lock it should be possible to make things work. I'd need to take a look at the electrical layout of the board to be certain though.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:21:57

Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:20:38

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:18:51
Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:09:16
Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48
I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

GH60 should support that layout -- it uses the two outermost key positions from the 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25 bottom row, and the innermost key positions from the 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row. 1.5-1 takes up the same physical space as 1.25-1.25, and I believe the logical key positions of the two outermost modifiers are the same regardless of which of those two configurations is used. It's not common, so it's not listed explicitly, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I will give it a try with a GH60 from techkeys, I do not need backlighting and I want my board to be fully compatible with my BIOS, so I will explore that option. One last question: Does the GH60 have support for in switch LEDs? I may want at least the Caps Lock.

It has pads for LEDs. I'm not sure exactly how they are wired up, but if you only want caps lock it should be possible to make things work. I'd need to take a look at the electrical layout of the board to be certain though.

Thank you, your feedback is well appreciated.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:36:16

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:21:57

Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:20:38
Quote from: ideus on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:18:51
Quote from: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:09:16
Quote from: DanielT on Wed, 08 June 2016, 14:28:48
I don't think the original GH60 has support for that layout https://geekhack.org/?topic=34959.0 .
Now that I see it it's very interesting.

For BIOS support you don't have to worry, it works. I have it with TMK and no problems

GH60 should support that layout -- it uses the two outermost key positions from the 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25 bottom row, and the innermost key positions from the 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row. 1.5-1 takes up the same physical space as 1.25-1.25, and I believe the logical key positions of the two outermost modifiers are the same regardless of which of those two configurations is used. It's not common, so it's not listed explicitly, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I will give it a try with a GH60 from techkeys, I do not need backlighting and I want my board to be fully compatible with my BIOS, so I will explore that option. One last question: Does the GH60 have support for in switch LEDs? I may want at least the Caps Lock.

It has pads for LEDs. I'm not sure exactly how they are wired up, but if you only want caps lock it should be possible to make things work. I'd need to take a look at the electrical layout of the board to be certain though.

Thank you, your feedback is well appreciated.

Just took a quick glance at the layout: the LED pads are intended for use as full matrix backlighting through the use of an expansion module. My best guess is that if you're only wiring a single LED into the matrix (eg. to act as a caps lock indicator), you can just solder a current-limiting resistor between one of the pins on the expansion header and the matrix input. You could also repurpose the WASD backlighting zone that does not require the use of the expansion header, and reposition the LED using jumper wires, either into the caps lock switch or elsewhere on your case.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: DanielT on Thu, 09 June 2016, 01:59:54

GH60 supports LED on Caps, WASD, Poker Arrows and Fn, you just have to solder the resistors, there are pads on the PCB for the resistors. These are the normal type 470ohm resistors :
(http://img.f-alpha.net/electronics/electronics_lab/electronic_components/resistor_470ohm_portrait_web.jpg)

If you look in this picture you can see the resistor pads (for example on WASD they are marked W,A,S,D):
(https://644db4de3505c40a0444-327723bce298e3ff5813fb42baeefbaa.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/uploads/project/bottom_image/tH85WHtP/i.png)

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: hexmonkey on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:05:44

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:46:11

Since there's good discussion going on here I think a comparison table would be good - corrections, blank fills and missing PCBs appreciated. Might make a good sticky?

PCB Backlighting Firmware Underglow ISO Right shift options RoHS
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU 1 colour top, RGB bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
B.face X2 (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU RGB top & bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
FaceW (Sprit) Single colour ps2avrU Yes (unknown) Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
GH60 (GB) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 (Techkeys) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 Satan Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
KC60 Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No No 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75
NerD60 ver2.0 (Gon) Single colour NerDy GUI Single colour on sides Yes 2.75, 1.75-1

QMK supports underglow on KC60:

https://github.com/jackhumbert/qmk_firmware

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:13:48

It is really hard for me to understand why under lighting could be that important for some, what is the functionality of lighting in a board? besides some visual clues for lock functions?

(http://i.imgur.com/vRCblg5.jpg)

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: hexmonkey on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:32:33

Quote from: ideus on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:13:48

It is really hard for me to understand why under lighting could be that important for some, what is the functionality of lighting in a board? besides some visual clues for lock functions?

"Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful." - William Morris

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: suicidal_orange on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:38:19

Quote from: hexmonkey on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:05:44

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:46:11
Since there's good discussion going on here I think a comparison table would be good - corrections, blank fills and missing PCBs appreciated. Might make a good sticky?

PCB Backlighting Firmware Underglow ISO Right shift options RoHS
B.face (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU 1 colour top, RGB bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
B.face X2 (Winkeyless) Single colour ps2avrU RGB top & bottom Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
FaceW (Sprit) Single colour ps2avrU Yes (unknown) Yes 2.75, 1.75-1
GH60 (GB) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 (Techkeys) Not yet EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
GH60 Satan Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No Yes 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75 Yes
KC60 Single colour EasyAVR / TMK No No 2.75, 1.75-1, 1-1.75
NerD60 ver2.0 (Gon) Single colour NerDy GUI Single colour on sides Yes 2.75, 1.75-1

QMK supports underglow on KC60:

https://github.com/jackhumbert/qmk_firmware

Thanks, I'll fix that :)

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: eksuen on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:57:57

Quote from: ideus on Thu, 09 June 2016, 11:13:48

It is really hard for me to understand why under lighting could be that important for some, what is the functionality of lighting in a board? besides some visual clues for lock functions?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/vRCblg5.jpg)

Why isn't every outfit in my closet the same? Why isn't every shirt I own plain and white? What is the functionality of having different colored/patterned shirts or graphic tees? For looks. For fun. It makes life interesting.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: RominRonin on Wed, 15 March 2017, 12:36:09

Where does the zeal60 pcb fit in this picture?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:05:31

Quote from: RominRonin on Wed, 15 March 2017, 12:36:09

Where does the zeal60 pcb fit in this picture?

Premium quality pcb, fully programmable with QMK, is only PCB with per-switch RGB LED's at the moment*, ISO compatible,Split backspace compatible, Short R-Shift compatible.

Not sure if it has underglow rgb as well.

*There is some taobao PCBs with RGB per switch but they are not fully programmable and there is lots of unknowns about them at the moment which is why I say this

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:16:40

Quote from: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:05:31

Quote from: RominRonin on Wed, 15 March 2017, 12:36:09
Where does the zeal60 pcb fit in this picture?

Premium quality pcb, fully programmable with QMK, is only PCB with per-switch RGB LED's at the moment*, ISO compatible,Split backspace compatible, Short R-Shift compatible.

Not sure if it has underglow rgb as well.

*There is some taobao PCBs with RGB per switch but they are not fully programmable and there is lots of unknowns about them at the moment which is why I say this

Does the support for per-switch RGB LEDs worth doubling the price for an sixty PCB?

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:20:59

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:16:40

Quote from: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:05:31
Quote from: RominRonin on Wed, 15 March 2017, 12:36:09
Where does the zeal60 pcb fit in this picture?

Premium quality pcb, fully programmable with QMK, is only PCB with per-switch RGB LED's at the moment*, ISO compatible,Split backspace compatible, Short R-Shift compatible.

Not sure if it has underglow rgb as well.

*There is some taobao PCBs with RGB per switch but they are not fully programmable and there is lots of unknowns about them at the moment which is why I say this

Does the support for per-switch RGB LEDs worth doubling the price for an sixty PCB?

All based on the end users opinion I guess.

As someone who doesn't really care for rgb that much I wouldn't be able to justify it, but for some I get it.

Also have to keep in mind it's the first 60 with this feature, anything with new tech in it always has a markup like that associated with it.

Title: Re: 60% Keyboard PCB
Post by: ideus on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:38:34

Quote from: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:20:59

Quote from: ideus on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:16:40
Quote from: kiwi99 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 13:05:31
Quote from: RominRonin on Wed, 15 March 2017, 12:36:09
Where does the zeal60 pcb fit in this picture?

Premium quality pcb, fully programmable with QMK, is only PCB with per-switch RGB LED's at the moment*, ISO compatible,Split backspace compatible, Short R-Shift compatible.

Not sure if it has underglow rgb as well.

*There is some taobao PCBs with RGB per switch but they are not fully programmable and there is lots of unknowns about them at the moment which is why I say this

Does the support for per-switch RGB LEDs worth doubling the price for an sixty PCB?
All based on the end users opinion I guess.

As someone who doesn't really care for rgb that much I wouldn't be able to justify it, but for some I get it.

Also have to keep in mind it's the first 60 with this feature, anything with new tech in it always has a markup like that associated with it.

I concur with your point of view. Personally, I do not use LEDs, so those features are not relevant for my decisions for purchasing boards nor parts. Extremely high prices are more related with a marketing strategy to send a message of exclusivity, which seems to be the case with Z's products.