2-has half the keys, 60 switches instead of 104, they can make 2 keyboards for the price of oneShould have gone to Specsavers. (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless)
...
5-alternate layout for arrows, end and page up keys, someone coded
autohotkey for free(give him and script contributors a medal of honor) it might not be embedded in the board, but those keys are the last ones that could benefit from a 1 microsecond improvement.
I think the Canadian Customs officials confiscated the Vestal Virgins under each key.
Although everybody has different opinions on the HHKB2 I tend to think it's really meant for programmers because it's appeal is more the layout than the switch.
Should have gone to Specsavers. (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless)
Now that I think of it, no one outside of the British Isles will get that one...
yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything, very likely the price was set by someone typing on a HHKB Pro2, and typed 250$ instead of 25$
first impressions,
1-double the price of the best mechanical boards. And 10 to 20 times! the price of it's close cousin rubber dome boards
2-has half the keys, 60 switches instead of 104, they can make 2 keyboards for the price of one
3-dip switches that allow you to reassign 3 pre-detemined keys(can't assign fn the right alt and right meta key only?), out of your 60 keys... 3 keys only? using dip switches? give that engineer a noble prize.
4-no tactile feedback what soever, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered, it has all the flaws of a rubber dome, any of my buckling spring board will register every time, the tactile bump, the click sound, the key registering, all the at the exact same time. The HHKB Pro 2 is not a board i would rely my or someone's money on(missing a zero, or adding an extra one in data entry), setting an administrator password, wouldn't trust this in any medical or aeronautical application, so what's left, I wouldn't trust it for anything, maybe hobby computing, if it's not anything close to serious, which leaves good for writing forum posts, emails and chat.
5-alternate layout for arrows, end and page up keys,
someone coded autohotkey for free(give him and script contributors a medal of honor) it might not be embedded in the board, but those keys are the last ones that could benefit from a 1 microsecond improvement.
I'm coming from a model M, very slightly greased, it's accurate, a click is a key code sent instantly, never misses, no way to make it miss even on purpose, it's a 23 years old keyboard and been heavily used. Having added it an almost microscopic coat of grease inside each key stem dampens it enough to allow me to use this Model M at 2am knowing my neighbor sleeps about 10 feet right above my computer desk, impossible to do with a default Unicomp Customizer, the
customizer i constantly had to hold back, or even stop typing and working, it was a problem. In terms of sound, my Model M(it's not the typical cacophonic M) and the HHKB Pro2 are in the same noise bracket except the HHKB Pro2's space bar is noisier. My model M has almost no grease, nearly invisible, if i wanted to dampen it more, there is still alot of room left, but it's already as quiet as the HHKB Pro2.
This is an early review,
at this point i'm not sure i would return it(not like I can anyway) but Filco blue might be a better choice, regardless of the price, considering the other arguments above, id give this board no more than a 5/10, now factor in the cost arguments above, this would drop more.
From the current point, it's likely it will it might rank a bit higher if I keep using it, the only way it could get lower is if it breaks, actually i would probably be less disappointed and have more hope if it had came in broke.
Isn't there a show for these kind of things? mythbuster or something?
On a side note, very happy with the Filco wrist rest that came with it
Sorry Ripster, but if I wasn't a programmer, there wouldn't be much left of me
hopefully it will pass, if things do turn out better, like it did for many, be assured I will post the good sides as well
I'll buy it for $5.
Guess you outbid me. Oh, well. I bet those Topres don't feel much different than my old Dell keyboard from 1995.
Guess you outbid me.
Oh, well. I bet those Topres don't feel much different than my old Dell keyboard from 1995.
Well, different keyboards are right for different people.
Well, different keyboards are right for different people.
you can take a model m for 0$ here..Show Image(http://www.araman-consulting.co.uk/blogimages/Keyboardsforthedump_141DB/KeyboardMoutain.jpg)
and here ...http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html) but you do not find a single HHKB. Now we know also why the HHKB is so expensive.
i think to recycle the model m do not cost more then 1 dollar
and i think you lose the bet
I don't see the comparison to the el cheapo rubber dome keyboard at all.
Yeah, I love how that one is espoused by people who have never tried a Topre board, and have seemingly no interest in doing so.
So, in the two-three weeks that I have left -
JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME.
I take it that one is on the way? cool. I am still debating whether or not to spring for one. Its hard to be resolute after reading these threads though.
never mind, its in your sig. I should read those more often : )
I was very lucky to get a little used (or so the seller claimed) HHKB Pro with blank keys for $165, including shipping across the pond.
a colleague has one, maybe i should have tried it before answering :-)
man, was that you on ebay? I topped out at 151.50. I thought I had it too.
it was the version without the USB ports, right?
Spacesaver? minis cost always more then a usual 104/105 layout keyboardNot true, they cost less to make in every situation (less keys and less switches and less plastic = cheaper), and the filco tenkeyless are cheaper (unless you get a full size one without nkro, with nkro full size is more expensive)
I said it in another thread, a click+pronounced tactile point combination is the best combination for typing accurately. This is why I'm fastest and most accurate on my blue Cherries keyboard. I have become very fast on my Topre, but not as accurate as I were on my blue Cherries.
That being said, I was not disappointed like you were. First, I could get my keys to fire half-way all the time, and second, once I discovered the "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber," typing on the Topre became addictive. And third, I had gradually moved to lighter and lighter switches before I tried the Topre. Moving from a Model M to a HHKB can require a fair amount of time to get used to. Use it for a month and then evaluate it. You may well still don't like it then. After all, we are all different. Some like it, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with that.
This is your opinion. I think the same about Ibm Model M
Spacesaver? minis cost always more then a usual 104/105 layout keyboard
what did you expect? minimalist is the right word.
Maybe take a faulty HHKB?
and i assume you have spent too much work time on a buckling spring keyboard. Work first with the HHKB for a week and make a new review.
here you lie
Yes it is.
Just i say your opinion. Take time and you see lot of positive aspects like,
lighter keystroke, farting!!, if you press more then one keys the feeling is heavier, topre sound, spacesaver and a layout that work.
Do you have an old Quietkey (One of the originals)? They are the best rubber domes I have ever used. Each key has a slider and has extremely smooth action, and when you press a key down hard, it bottoms out and just stops (I'm sure you guys have seen many rubber dome keyboards where they feel "creaky" after you bottom out on them and press more). In addition, there's a spring-loaded space bar and all large keys have stablizers. I can press any key in any corner of the keycap and it'll move down nice and smoothly. In addition, each key requires very little pressure compared to an IBM or an ALPS. Next time you see an old Quietkey in your workplace's trash, take a look at it and see if it's a good one (Later models feel terrible).
I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.
while its been awhile since I typed on an HHKB; I do remember it being the smoothest feeling key I have ever used. I don't see the comparison to the el cheapo rubber dome keyboard at all.
IIRC,it didn't take me long to get used to it either, the layout was different but after a bit it made total sense.
I think a big part of it is the reality of paying close to 300 dollars for a keyboard. I don't think it lives up to the price, at all. For 300 dollars I expect dinner and a reach around.
you can take a model m for 0$ here..Show Image(http://www.araman-consulting.co.uk/blogimages/Keyboardsforthedump_141DB/KeyboardMoutain.jpg)
and here ...http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html) but you do not find a single HHKB. Now we know also why the HHKB is so expensive.
unfortunately it comes down to "we wont sell 5x as many if we cut the profit down by 5x"
I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it releasing the key, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different, probably it was just me adapting to it.
fair, but how about 2 for 2?
after 10+ years, i'd think R&D was paid long time ago, they probably pay more for the switches because it's the only thing they OEM on the board, and with 43-44 keys less per board, that's enough keys to make 3 more keyboards each time they sell 4. Add a brand name that's already investited in it and could distribute it as one of their products, Fujitsu right? there is a good share of profit in making one of those, cut the profit by half and remove middleman or two, the price might attract twice more people, and a distributor like fujitsu would provide much credibility and visibility, double would sell, not considering the 'carry factor' not sure how to translate this one but basicly, more people having it is more people seeing it, i'm not trying to convince people to invest in it, but saying the people currently making this keyboard are ****ers
With typical rubber dome + membrane switch cheap keyboards, you have to jam your fingers to the bottom to register a keystroke.
If you have some Alps switches, you may notice that you can make them "click" without registering a keystroke (can't do that with Cherry's).
Regardless, in real world typing scenarios, you won't run into an issue (and, as others have said, those springs do need some wearing in).
If you don't like it, post it for sale here. LOTS of geekhackers (myself included) absolutely love them.
fair, but how about 2 for 2?
after 10+ years, i'd think R&D was paid long time ago, they probably pay more for the switches because it's the only thing they OEM on the board, and with 43-44 keys less per board, that's enough keys to make 3 more keyboards each time they sell 4. Add a brand name that's already investited in it and could distribute it as one of their products, Fujitsu right? there is a good share of profit in making one of those, cut the profit by half and remove middleman or two, the price might attract twice more people, and a distributor like fujitsu would provide much credibility and visibility, double would sell, not considering the 'carry factor' not sure how to translate this one but basicly, more people having it is more people seeing it, i'm not trying to convince people to invest in it, but saying the people currently making this keyboard are ****ers
im not going to get in to all this. i feel the same as you... it should not cost that much. there is no reason. just like how the 87u costs more than the 103u. it makes no sense at all.
but you are forgetting that profit is not the same as total cost.
heres an example: if it cost $100, including all costs (marketing, etc) to make a HHKB... cutting profit in half would make it $170 instead of $240. do you think TWICE as many people would buy it just because it cost $170? i dont... maybe 25% more.
but yeah, sell it if you dont want it. think of it economically: if something is worth X to someone else, but you wouldnt pay X for it, it is in your best interest to sell it. there is a guy on candlepowerforums that said he would buy one in an instant for $150 like mine was, and desperately wants to try one out. ask me if you would be interested. depending on the color you got it in, i might even want yours, and sell him mine.
...
Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's havin' them dreams.
...
Half the people can be part right all of the time, an'
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
...
It is not so much the domes that need a little break in. It is the springs because the HHKB Pro is a capacitive keyboard the key will not register until the spring creates the correct capacitance for the key to register. I have seen behaviour similar to this on new Topre boards as well. But after a break in period (the amount varies) they no longer have this problem. Also the activation point on all of my Topre boards is slightly higher than the dome collapse point not by much but definitely before dome collapse. If you stick with it and get to the point where you finally get to the point of "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" you will understand why this board cost so much. Also you will really only get that feeling after using the board for a while and then you most likely will only get it when in the grove at first later as your fingers really adjust to it you can get it allot more. But be warned to get there you really should only type on the Topre until your fingers adjust. Later you can switch between boards and your fingers will remember what to do after a short readjustment (for me a couple of hours).
When I moved off my Model M to my 87U it took me about a month to fully adjust to the Topre switch and during that time I did not type on the Model M at all. Today I still like my Model M but I would not want to type on it all day any more. Once I adjusted it took another week or so before I had the "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" and ever since that happened my Topre boards have been my goto boards ever since.
I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.
I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it registering the key press, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different(great), probably it was just me adapting to it.
4-no tactile feedback what soever, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered
This is a valuable post because in my following of the "OMG I JUST GOT A TOPRE" threads the people whose favorite keyboard in their sig was an ALPS or a Buckling Spring often are disappointed with Topres.
I mean, there's no law saying you have to try EVERY switch. Well, maybe it was in the Geekhack forum registration agreement.
You could well have a defective unit. Though this is rare in the Topre/HHKB world, it's not impossible. I sure hope it's not a defective unit. You'll be able to tell after a month with the keyboard for sure.
Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.
Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.
I recall reading that in Japan many companies strive to have a good reputation by making good quality products. This is true in some ways throughout the entire region with members of a Chinese milk company being sentenced to death for letting contaminated milk get by. While the consequences might not be as high, companies in the region tend to strive to maintain a good reputation amongst the people.
How is you post relevant to this thread.
It's an MS Windows post! Relevance is irrelevant!
yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything
it's just something I will get use to, but I was disapointed at how customizable the dip switches were, it allows to assign fn to left alt and/or left windows key, but the right alt and right windows key are just hardcoded there
Any follow up thoughts GenEric?
Not on my one!
Because there's a dedicated Fn above the right Alt?
The HHKB function key layout is designed for "clawing". Move your index finger to a cursor key, and your pinky hovers over the Fn key. If you want to touch type, you need to assign the second Fn key left of the space bar. I have that, and use both Fn's. FWIIW, some ergo "experts" say clawing is bad because there's more stress to the hand. I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row (example: you want Colemak back space instead of Ctrl, even if you move Ctrl to the bottom row with software, you need to give up another important key). Apart from that the layout is a winner.
EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.
I just got my filco cherry brown tenkeyless, I almost ordered a hhkb pro instead, but I'm glad I didn't because this filco is everything I could have hoped for of the hhkb :D - and much cheaper
How do you know that unless you've tried it?
How do you know that unless you've tried it?
- no arrow keys, no arrow keys, no arrow keys. Unless you're Japanese. Clear roundeye discrimination.
Switches: capacitative is cool. Patent leads to higher prices.
They're manufactured by the people who own the patent, so it's really combination high build quality, limited numbers and just being priced high.
Yay, my first-ever anti-Topre comment!
Edit:
It's not MY belief that you're a sucker if you pay for Topre. It's my belief that the manufacturer thinks you are...not quite the same.
LOL I guess I one of the biggest suckers out there then because I have quite a few of them :) And intend to get a few more :)
You forgot, "the company thinks people are big enough suckers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for something that costs a fraction of the price to build".
Wow, you're right. I better stop buying... everything?
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly. Asking maybe up to 100 bucks for a Topre because of hq materials, rigid quality control and a personal prayer for each board leaving the factory might be acceptable. But three times that much is simply obscene.
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view. As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.
Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......
VGA??? Sheeeeeeeit, only mono dumb terminals here. The graphics department uses CGA.
See.
But at least I got you up from $5 to $30 :wink:.
This still works in my favour.
$30 GeForce 7600GS 512MB AGP8x
And yes, that has DVI.
eeeeeewwww 7600gs ...vomit
*runs*
I can't afford a HHKB,
so it is obscene,
Topre sucks
and the users are idiots.
So I'm superior after all,
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view. As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view. As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.
Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......
back on topic though im still wants me a topre!! however im a bit torn as to whether to try the HHKB or the realforce..
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.
I went with the Realforce, just didn't think the HHKB layout would work for me. And I'm not convinced with the whole "it's good for coding" argument.
I can't afford a HHKB, so it is obscene, Topre sucks and the users are idiots. So I'm superior after all, and it was a choice. This really says a lot about those people! Or about me..
Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers? Cherry G80, Filco Zero, ABS M1, Scorpius M10, Unicomp. They all sell for 50 to 100 bucks *today*. Topre is a mass producer, too. If you want to tell me that producing a Topre board is more expensive than buying and soldering hundred individual switch modules then I'm out of the discussion immediately.
Topres are special in many different ways. And if you want that and are willing to spend 300 bucks for it, that's totally okay. Your decision, and if it's it worth it for you, fine. Nevertheless the price is really exorbitant compared with the rest of the market. No?
So what's a $250 Topre when a $40 Model M's a Cadillac of keyboards?
Can't we have a topic especially for people who don't own a Topre keyboard, yet want to post "expert" reviews of it,
Because if you can't have one, no one may enjoy one, right?
That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?
I'm strongly inclined to believe that their profit margin is HUGE, however. Although they don't move a particularly large volume, I'd be astounded if the manufacturing costs were beyond 20 dollars per board.
The main accusation being levelled at the Topre in this thread seems to be that putting a spring under each dome, and using capacitative electronics, ought not to increase its marginal cost of manufacture all that much over that of a regular rubber dome... so it ought to be possible to buy a Realforce for less than a Unicomp.
For that matter, haven't the Model M patents run out by now? Or at least the Model F patents, or the beam spring ones for the 3278 keyboard? Anyone out there making life tough for Unicomp? (Well, there was the infamous Mechanical Touch keyboard... but as the result achieved was apparently not a success, difficulties in execution may have been what kept that sort of competition at bay...)
I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become
You know that small plastic ring you bought off Unicomp for $5... Do you think that even cost them 1c to make?
Bare in mind that an XT Model F was anywhere from $350-400. A Model M when it came out was $250 and dropped to about $100 over time. I think that the circuitry involved with a capacitive switch keyboard is far more elaborate and therefore expensive than it might appear superficially.
Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?
I think the DIP switches are pretty silly - SW3 disables numeric keypad? - isn't that what NumLock is for?
Computers back then costed thousands upon thousands of dollars. And making circutry boards wasn't nearly as cheap as today. But that doesn't mean that it took $300 to produce each Model F...
Which one do you think it is?
I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become, it's like listening to the arguments on French vs American wine. The market is there to allow those products worthy of consumer appreciation to flourish, while other products, regardless of quality or innovation, stagnate and die.
Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?
That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?
I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row
Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?