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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: TheVengeance on Sun, 29 May 2016, 02:13:14

Title: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: TheVengeance on Sun, 29 May 2016, 02:13:14
To cut a long story short, I've worn out my index knuckle from all the scrolling and have since been endlessly searching for the perfect alternative.

Right now the thumb paddle on my roccat mouse is the best alternative. I've also tries a 3d connection 3d mouse, capacitive scroll dial on trackball, numerous button combos etc.

Ideally I need something with the same control as the scroll wheel without the repetition.

Anyone else in the same boat?
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 29 May 2016, 05:04:37
what do you mean worn out index knuckle?
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: nephiel on Sun, 29 May 2016, 05:37:27
Most TrackPoints have a feature (middle button scrolling) that sends mouse scroll events when you move the pointer while holding down the middle button. That's what I use.

Other options:
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: TheVengeance on Sun, 29 May 2016, 11:02:44
what do you mean worn out index knuckle?

Quite literally I've scrolled so much in my life my knuckle has worn out and now doesn't allow the fast movement of scrolling.

I guess some kind of rsi / arthritis.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 29 May 2016, 11:20:14
well if you have a programmable keyboard, you could just bind keys to scroll up / scroll down
or have you thought about trying to use a mouse with your other hand?
there are also trackballs with thumb-operated scroll wheels.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: MrFex on Sun, 29 May 2016, 13:13:27
Perhaps an AHK script that binds mouse movements to scrolling while holding a key/button combination?

Gentleman in this thread uses a script to use rightmouse+move as scrolling. Hope it helps:

https://autohotkey.com/board/topic/42020-using-right-click-and-mouse-movement-as-a-scroll-wheel/

Good luck with your index finger, hope you marriage doesn't suffer from it ;)
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 29 May 2016, 15:17:31
i just can't imagine this happening..

Do you have some sort of degenerative connective tissue/ bone disorder ?


Also, how come you don't use autoscroll, (middle click)
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Potatoes on Sun, 29 May 2016, 19:27:42
Logitech's hyper scroll is the **** and shocking easily to control. Obviously a scroll wheel but you push that thing half way down and you're at the bottom of the page.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 29 May 2016, 20:10:45
Logitech's hyper scroll is the **** and shocking easily to control. Obviously a scroll wheel but you push that thing half way down and you're at the bottom of the page.

+1 for the mice that have this feature, it is great, unfortunately for me, the last Logitech mouse I had with that feature died on me one year ago, prices for a replacement was out of my budget by then. There is another alternative that is available for most of the mice that have a clickable wheel, in windows that click can be assigned to turn on a scroll mode that works with the normal mouse moves instead of the regular cursor moves. I am pretty sure the feature has a name, but I just cannot remember it now.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: HP_Jornada on Sun, 29 May 2016, 21:46:30
To cut a long story short, I've worn out my index knuckle from all the scrolling and have since been endlessly searching for the perfect alternative.

Right now the thumb paddle on my roccat mouse is the best alternative. I've also tries a 3d connection 3d mouse, capacitive scroll dial on trackball, numerous button combos etc.

Ideally I need something with the same control as the scroll wheel without the repetition.

Anyone else in the same boat?
Have you considered the RollerMouse?
http://ergo.contourdesign.com
Logitech's hyper scroll is the **** and shocking easily to control. Obviously a scroll wheel but you push that thing half way down and you're at the bottom of the page.

+1 for the mice that have this feature, it is great, unfortunately for me, the last Logitech mouse I had with that feature died on me one year ago, prices for a replacement was out of my budget by then. There is another alternative that is available for most of the mice that have a clickable wheel, in windows that click can be assigned to turn on a scroll mode that works with the normal mouse moves instead of the regular cursor moves. I am pretty sure the feature has a name, but I just cannot remember it now.


Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Mon, 30 May 2016, 01:06:20
If you buy a game pad like a g13 you can map the joystick to scroll up down.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Mon, 30 May 2016, 04:05:45
I have an rollermouse.
Quite nice, but it also uses an scroll wheel for scrolling. Or do you want to use the bar for scrolling?
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Mon, 30 May 2016, 12:29:07
Most TrackPoints have a feature (middle button scrolling) that sends mouse scroll events when you move the pointer while holding down the middle button. That's what I use.

At one point in my life, I actually had more experience scrolling this way than with a mouse scroll wheel (lots of years on laptops, and before that on Macs with 1-button, wheelless mice). I'm still not convinced that a mouse wheel is actually better.

On my old Omnimouse, I had one of the buttons bound to a very similar sort of scrolling gesture (tweaked, naturally, to feel exactly the way I wanted it). IIRC there's an example script that uses circular motions for scrolling without a button, but I found the IBM-style "hold button and push a little bit forward or back" worked better.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 30 May 2016, 12:55:23
I have no scroll wheel in my mouse. I use the Up, Down, Page Up and Page Down -keys ...

I wish that middle press + mouse movement scrolled in all programs. Preferably like an analogue joystick - not like a panning cursor.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: hanya on Mon, 30 May 2016, 13:07:17
Some softwares support vertical scrolling by space key and shift + space key.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: xtrafrood on Tue, 31 May 2016, 17:16:20
Perhaps an AHK script that binds mouse movements to scrolling while holding a key/button combination?

Gentleman in this thread uses a script to use rightmouse+move as scrolling. Hope it helps:

https://autohotkey.com/board/topic/42020-using-right-click-and-mouse-movement-as-a-scroll-wheel/

Good luck with your index finger, hope you marriage doesn't suffer from it ;)

I used a similar script for my trackman marble. It took me a bit longer to figure out how to do the same through Linux but there is a way in both OS's to assign a button for scrolling. There is no comparison between scrolling with a normal mouse and a trackball imo (so smoooooth). I'll probably switch to a Hyperscroll mouse once my current mouse wears out.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 01 June 2016, 17:14:25
Some amount of "repetition" here is inevitable.

The problem with mouse finger scroll wheels is that (a) the muscles used for these finger motions are all in the arm, relatively small, with tendons to the joint stretched a fair distance, (b) repeatedly flexing and extending the various finger joints is not the most natural or comfortable kind of movement, (c) the design of the mouse doesn’t really let you get any bigger muscles involved [if your mouse was glued to the table, you could keep your finger in a relaxed position and spin the wheel by moving your whole hand forward/backward]. In general precision work with the fingers alone puts the strength into flexing the biggest joint at the base of the finger (e.g. the mouse clicking motion, many musical instruments, typing, etc.) and not needing much force resetting by extending the joint. But more often, precision hand work mixes finger and thumb motions with hand, wrist, and arm movements. For instance, writing with a pen, fencing, sewing, chopping or peeling vegetables, reeling in fish, brushing your teeth, etc. involve some amount of fine finger motion, but the fingers are supported by the whole hand and arm, shock is transferred up to big muscles in the upper arm / back, and bigger muscles are used for exerting any significant amount of force.

The best scrolling device, if all you need to do is scroll, is going to be some kind of jog wheel which you can use by moving your hand in a circular motion using your arm muscles with your hand itself mostly fixed relative to the arm. The jog wheel on the original iPod was an absolutely brilliant scrolling device. Some kind of trackball that you can hold with multiple fingers with your hand not resting on any surface could also be good. You might also be able to use something like a "roller mouse" for this. A trackpad can also work well. Try to keep your whole hand/arm floating in the air, with your input device near your body, and see if you can do what you need with whole-hand movements instead of finger movements. If you need something small, finger operated, and attached to your mouse, I recommend finding a thumb wheel which you use by moving your thumb side to side.

There are jogwheels like this for sale: https://amzn.comB00ASHR4EU/
(http://i.imgur.com/pVM1qSs.jpg)

Or you could just scroll with keyboard keys.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Wed, 01 June 2016, 17:35:00
If you want to talk about jog wheels, how about the steam controller? The default mapping for desktop use is running right thumb around rim of touch pad to scroll up down
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Bucake on Wed, 01 June 2016, 20:39:38
jacobolus' post made me think of the Slimblade from Kensington.
it has you rotate the ball to scroll. clockwise = down, counter-clockwise = up: quick demonstration (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8zrGsp4i0I&t=1m20s)
maybe it's not the only trackball with the feature? might be worth looking into.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: davkol on Thu, 02 June 2016, 14:57:17
Other kensington trackballs have a hardware ring around the ball, but it's extremely gritty, thus I very much prefer the slimblade with its dual sensors and basically perfect smoothness. I hear they've fixed the scrolling mechanism on the new Bluetooth Kensington Expert Mouse though.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: xtrafrood on Thu, 02 June 2016, 15:07:35
I'd imagine the Slimblade is much more comfortable with scrolling and overall ergonomics when compared to the CST.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: davkol on Thu, 02 June 2016, 15:31:58
The current slimblade isn't sensitive enough. The sensors support resolution up to 2000 cpi IIRC, but Kensington has set it to its minimum (400 cpi). As it is, it greatly benefits from correctly configured software acceleration and scrolling acceleration would be helpful as well.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: TheVengeance on Fri, 03 June 2016, 08:48:38
Thanks guys, this has been really very helpful.

The slimblade is very expensive especially if it's not 100%.

I do like the look of a jog wheel though, all the control and not that expensive.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Fri, 03 June 2016, 08:52:27
for how much can you buy an slimblade?
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 03 June 2016, 08:58:06
for how much can you buy an slimblade?
Have you tried STFW?
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Fri, 03 June 2016, 10:49:10
No, Im just interested. I already have one. IIRC -70€. But that was a time ago
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 03 June 2016, 12:34:54
30 seconds: €94 @ Amazon.de (https://www.amazon.de/Kensington-SlimBlade-Multifunktionaler-Trackball-Media/dp/B001MTE32Y/ref=sr_1_1)

I think exchange rates have gone up a bit.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: TheVengeance on Fri, 03 June 2016, 12:48:12
for how much can you buy an slimblade?
Have you tried STFW?

LMAO
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: xtrafrood on Fri, 03 June 2016, 14:07:41
Another sensor that is unstable beyond 1600dpi? Why can't these companies use better sensors in their trackballs :'(
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Sat, 04 June 2016, 11:00:21
can please someone send me such an AHK script for scrolling? I tried the one named above, but could not get it to work.

Thanks in advice!
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: MrFex on Mon, 06 June 2016, 09:45:45
I've tested this script, and it works perfectly on my PC. I have tried Windows 8.1 and Windows 10.

Code: [Select]
#SingleInstance Force
#NoEnv
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%

wheelingSensitivity := 10 ; sensitivity to mouse movement (higher is more sensitive)
wheelingPeriod := 100 ; timer period
return


RButton & LButton:: GoSub StartWheeling
~*LButton Up:: GoSub StopWheeling
~*RButton Up:: GoSub StopWheeling

WatchCursor:
MouseGetPos, wheelingNewMouseX, wheelingNewMouseY

DeltaX := wheelingNewMouseX - wheelingMouseX
clicks := Round((wheelingNewMouseY - wheelingMouseY)/wheelingSensitivity)

MouseMove wheelingMouseX, wheelingMouseY

if clicks > 0
MouseClick WheelDown,,,abs(clicks)
else if clicks < 0
MouseClick WheelUp,,,abs(clicks)
return

StartWheeling:
SystemCursor("OFF")
MouseGetPos, wheelingMouseX, wheelingMouseY
SetTimer WatchCursor, %wheelingPeriod%
return

StopWheeling:
SetTimer WatchCursor, Off
SystemCursor("ON")
return
;===============================================================================================================================================================
; from the AHK documentation...
SystemCursor(OnOff=1)   ; INIT = "I","Init"; OFF = 0,"Off"; TOGGLE = -1,"T","Toggle"; ON = others
{
    static AndMask, XorMask, $, h_cursor
        ,c0,c1,c2,c3,c4,c5,c6,c7,c8,c9,c10,c11,c12,c13 ; system cursors
        , b1,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7,b8,b9,b10,b11,b12,b13   ; blank cursors
        , h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,h7,h8,h9,h10,h11,h12,h13   ; handles of default cursors
    if (OnOff = "Init" or OnOff = "I" or $ = "")       ; init when requested or at first call
    {
        $ = h                                          ; active default cursors
        VarSetCapacity( h_cursor,4444, 1 )
        VarSetCapacity( AndMask, 32*4, 0xFF )
        VarSetCapacity( XorMask, 32*4, 0 )
        system_cursors = 32512,32513,32514,32515,32516,32642,32643,32644,32645,32646,32648,32649,32650
        StringSplit c, system_cursors, `,
        Loop %c0%
        {
            h_cursor   := DllCall( "LoadCursor", "uint",0, "uint",c%A_Index% )
            h%A_Index% := DllCall( "CopyImage",  "uint",h_cursor, "uint",2, "int",0, "int",0, "uint",0 )
            b%A_Index% := DllCall("CreateCursor","uint",0, "int",0, "int",0
                , "int",32, "int",32, "uint",&AndMask, "uint",&XorMask )
        }
    }
    if (OnOff = 0 or OnOff = "Off" or $ = "h" and (OnOff < 0 or OnOff = "Toggle" or OnOff = "T"))
        $ = b  ; use blank cursors
    else
        $ = h  ; use the saved cursors

    Loop %c0%
    {
        h_cursor := DllCall( "CopyImage", "uint",%$%%A_Index%, "uint",2, "int",0, "int",0, "uint",0 )
        DllCall( "SetSystemCursor", "uint",h_cursor, "uint",c%A_Index% )
    }
}
;===============================================================================================================================================================

What are you difficulties? Are you getting error messages?

This script hides the cursor when you rightclick followed by a leftclick. When the cursor is hidden you can scroll up and down by moving the mouse forward and backwards.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Tue, 07 June 2016, 07:19:22
Im on Win7 64bit.

Problem is with R & LButton it does previous page
and with L & RButton it does next page
(I don't know whats causing this, using Firefox+an Roccat Kone).

It worked one time with R & LButton, but then it marked parts of the text ;/
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: MrFex on Tue, 07 June 2016, 08:16:37
Strange. Perhaps try it with Word or notepad or perhaps IE! I have a feeling you are using some Firefox mouse gesture features that I might be interfering with AHK.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: Phenix on Tue, 07 June 2016, 15:37:38
Thanks for that script, now it works (more or less).
Keeps selecting. Is it possible to place an LClick at the start? This should stop the problem
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: MrFex on Tue, 07 June 2016, 17:35:21

Sure, all you need to do is find this line:

Quote
RButton & LButton:: GoSub StartWheeling

and change it to

Quote
LButton & RButton:: GoSub StartWheeling

AHK is a great little tool. Be sure to read up on it, you can do amazing things with it and more importantly get the most out of your keyboard. E.g. start by adding a few hotstrings. Something like:

Quote
:*:firstname@::firstname@youremail.com

Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: MrFex on Tue, 07 June 2016, 17:36:19
.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: ImO on Wed, 08 June 2016, 07:25:37
I saw that someone mentioned rollermouse, but from what I saw didn't anyone mention MouseTrapper. I don't know if they are a global company or not so I can't say how easy it is to get hold of outside of Sweden.
Anywho, this is mainly a replacement for your mouse but dose also come with a few programable buttons. As default the buttons are scroll up / down, zoom in / out, rightklick, doubleklick, copy, paste.
So instead of moving your finger all the time you just press the buttom for whatever duration you need to get down / up the pages. The default layout makes it so that you use your thumbs for this.
Worth to mention is that it also serves as a wrist rest.

It might not be exactly what you are looking for but thought I might mention it for someone else that might be looking for another replacement for the scroll.

I think it's worth to mention that to use the lowest keys on the Mousetrapper, scroll by default, you need to move your hand from the home row.
But you can just remap them to the default zoom in / out which is at the top and don't have this problem at all.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: ArchieTect on Sat, 11 June 2016, 15:18:31
If you are not concerned about price, consider a 3dspacenavigator.

Typically this device is marketed to CAD operators but it can be used to scroll. Mine is on my desk here and all it takes is a nudge to make a page scroll. you can use 2 fingers, a whole hand, doesn't matter.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 12 June 2016, 00:26:06
I recommend against using a CAD spaceball thing as a basic scrolling device. It’s essentially a 6DOF trackpoint, measuring force/torque rather than movement. A smooth-spinning jog wheel is a dramatically more precise and convenient device if all you need is scrolling.

If you need to move around and spin in 3 dimensions, then a spaceball can be nice.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: lee+ on Fri, 24 June 2016, 19:04:07
jacobolus' post made me think of the Slimblade from Kensington.
it has you rotate the ball to scroll. clockwise = down, counter-clockwise = up: quick demonstration (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8zrGsp4i0I&t=1m20s)
maybe it's not the only trackball with the feature? might be worth looking into.

I got one of those when the buttons on my Logitech Marble FX were worn out too much after over 20 years of use.  Kensington Slimblades are poor quality.  It didn't last two years before one of the buttons didn't work anymore, and I had to get out the Logitech again.  I never was entirely happy with the Kensington, either.

I finally manged to replace it with a CST L-Trac when they became available here.  The quality is great and it works very well; it's a more than worthy replacement for the Marble and will probably last at least as long.  It's worth the money.

I use them with my left hand.  The Kensington and the CST are the only ones I could find that would work for that.  Do not buy Kensington, it's a waste of money.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: lee+ on Fri, 24 June 2016, 19:12:22
I'd imagine the Slimblade is much more comfortable with scrolling and overall ergonomics when compared to the CST.

That would depend on the preference of the user if the Kensington was anywhere near the quality of the CST, which it isn't.

I greatly prefer the CST.  Turning the ball is somewhat weird to begin with, and I find it much more straining and far less precise and smooth than the wheel on the CST.

The CST is a real joy to use, the Kensington is barely half-assed.
Title: Re: What's the ultimate page scroll device that you use that isn't a mouse wheel.
Post by: xtrafrood on Fri, 24 June 2016, 19:23:32
I'd imagine the Slimblade is much more comfortable with scrolling and overall ergonomics when compared to the CST.

That would depend on the preference of the user if the Kensington was anywhere near the quality of the CST, which it isn't.

I greatly prefer the CST.  Turning the ball is somewhat weird to begin with, and I find it much more straining and far less precise and smooth than the wheel on the CST.

The CST is a real joy to use, the Kensington is barely half-assed.

Are you able to use the L-Trac without straining your wrist? I only made that comment because the Slimblade is a much more of a low profile device when compared to the L-Trac and one doesn't have to reach far to use the scrolling feature. I guess the L-Trac wouldn't be much of a problem for people with large hands; my issue is I've never held one and the price is so damn steep. I'll probably break down and but one--one of these days. Free spinning would certainly be a plus while scrolling through long documents