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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: les_garten on Fri, 10 June 2016, 12:55:54
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Will RealForce adopt the Cherry MX Compatible Stems for all their keyboards?
Woudn't that be awesome!
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No not really. Stock topre PBT are great and add a lot of value when considering the initial price of realforce and hhkb boards.
It might be great though to give people the option and sell MX compatible boards at a lower price.
And a board like the type heaven would be OK with MX compatible stems.
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I just saw that they RealForce is releasing a board with MX compatible stems and was wishing they would just convert all stems to them. It would seem a smart move on Topre and Realforces part.
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I would think the decision would be with the manufactures not Topre.
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Yeah, I really meant to say RealForce
Fixed it
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No not really. Stock topre PBT are great and add a lot of value when considering the initial price of realforce and hhkb boards.
Sure, but Topre will have to put something on these MX-stemmed RealForce board as stock keycaps. I'm sure they are capable of deploying the same calibre PBT keycaps they currently use, but with MX stems.
Consequently, there is virtually no benefit to sticking with the old stem style going forward, is there?
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No not really. Stock topre PBT are great and add a lot of value when considering the initial price of realforce and hhkb boards.
Sure, but Topre will have to put something on these MX-stemmed RealForce board as stock keycaps. I'm sure they are capable of deploying the same calibre PBT keycaps they currently use, but with MX stems.
Consequently, there is virtually no benefit to sticking with the old stem style going forward, is there?
As long as they will be able to modify the stems for type s keyboards then it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
One more thing to note is that caps fit better on MX stems as topre caps have some wiggle room when they click on giving a less solid feeling.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this with the MX stems since I haven't seen anyone comment on it yet.
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Silencing a Topre switch is purely and internal issue, is it not? The shape of the stem tip shouldn't play a role. I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be able to make MX-stemmed Topre switches "S"ilent as well.
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No not really. Stock topre PBT are great and add a lot of value when considering the initial price of realforce and hhkb boards.
Sure, but Topre will have to put something on these MX-stemmed RealForce board as stock keycaps. I'm sure they are capable of deploying the same calibre PBT keycaps they currently use, but with MX stems.
Consequently, there is virtually no benefit to sticking with the old stem style going forward, is there?
As long as they will be able to modify the stems for type s keyboards then it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
One more thing to note is that caps fit better on MX stems as topre caps have some wiggle room when they click on giving a less solid feeling.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this with the MX stems since I haven't seen anyone comment on it yet.
It's quite an indexing system...
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i went to Realforce booth at computex 2016 last week, they have their new Realforce RGB keyboard with Cherry MX sliders and adjustable activation point on show, I also heard that it will be on sale soon. So i guess they will go with MX compatible stem from now on..
But I have to admit that I kinda like the original realforce more; the new Realforce RGB one went with ABS doubleshot and the board quality feels a lot cheaper compared to the original 104U & 87U
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i went to Realforce booth at computex 2016 last week, they have their new Realforce RGB keyboard with Cherry MX sliders and adjustable activation, and i think that it will be on sale soon. So i guess they will go with MX compatible stem from now on..
But I have to admit that I kinda like the original realforce more.
Is there a significant difference in feel even if you don't change the activation point?
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i went to Realforce booth at computex 2016 last week, they have their new Realforce RGB keyboard with Cherry MX sliders and adjustable activation, and i think that it will be on sale soon. So i guess they will go with MX compatible stem from now on..
But I have to admit that I kinda like the original realforce more.
Is there a significant difference in feel even if you don't change the activation point?
I'd say that it no longer feels premium like the original Realforce 87U & 104U, since its RGB board they are switching from PBT keycaps to ABS Doubleshot, the chassis is similar to those Ducky One or KBTalking108 boards. Typing on it feels more like the original novatouch (ABS keycaps), just overall build quality and ABS keycaps causing it to be less enjoyable to type on- the switch itself feels exactly the same, and that tactile bump only happens at one spot regardless of your activation point setting.
I do have a short video of the staff demonstrating the adjustable activation point recorded with my phone, will upload soon.
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That all makes sense to me.
I guess the trade off for RGB backlighting is ABS instead of PBT in order to get the double-shot legends? They could have gone with "Vortex" translucent double-shots in PBT but I guess they chose not to. Oh well. I wouldn't be keeping the stock keycaps on regardless of what they were.
This new keyboard will be in ANSI 108 layout, correct?
Do we know what case colors will be available?
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
Agreed.
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Will RealForce adopt the Cherry MX Compatible Stems for all their keyboards?
Woudn't that be awesome!
Speaking as an owner of a Realforce and a Novatouch, in my opinion: no, they won't. And no, it wouldn't be awesome.
The custom keycaps are fine on a Novatouch (or indeed Topre's newest venture into the Cherry compatible stem market). But I'm not convinced of the appeal on Realforce boards.
I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.
I'd also be worried that what has happened on the Novatouch (I'm referring to the clack of the slider hitting the top of the housing, which has created a dental band aftermarket for this board), would carry over to Topre boards.
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
MX ain't the only switch that uses mx-spec cruciform (marquardt and futaba... and of course the heavenly MY)
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I see that realforce is making a new realforce RGB board that uses cherry mx stem so yeah
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Silencing a Topre switch is purely and internal issue, is it not? The shape of the stem tip shouldn't play a role. I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be able to make MX-stemmed Topre switches "S"ilent as well.
In order to account for the increase of material with the o rings the base of the stems have to be thinned out so as to not affect the travel.
This means that the moulds for MX compatible silent sliders will have to be different.
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No not really. Stock topre PBT are great and add a lot of value when considering the initial price of realforce and hhkb boards.
It might be great though to give people the option and sell MX compatible boards at a lower price.
And a board like the type heaven would be OK with MX compatible stems.
Topre PBT keycaps are great - but they needs to makes more of them!
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I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Nearly the entire appeal of a RealForce comes from its Topre switches and its build quality. The stock keycaps are entirely besides the point.
If you look at the history of custom keycap group buys, you will find that 99% of them have MX stems. That means that virtually the entire custom keycap community needs/uses boards with MX stems. The NovaTouch is the only Topre-like keyboard that can take all those millions of custom keycaps, and it only comes in TKL format and only in black. Moreover, there is little evidence that Cooler Master has any interest in continuing the product line, much expanding it into other layouts.
That means RealForce is poised to take the entire Topre+MX market for themselves. This is fantastic news for everyone who owns any of the many fantastic keycap sets that have come out these last several years and also want that Topre experience.
For many of us, typing nirvana will only come when we can put SA keycaps onto genuine Topre switches. The stock PBT caps that come on any board are eBay fodder and nothing more, and contribute zero "charm" to a board whose primary value lies in its switches.
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I really hope they go MX. There is no reason to have two different, incompatible systems for attaching keycaps. Surely Realforce PBT caps could be made exactly the same but with a different stem.
Topre switches are great but the limited options in keyboards are a bit annoying.
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I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Nearly the entire appeal of a RealForce comes from its Topre switches and its build quality. The stock keycaps are entirely besides the point.
If you look at the history of custom keycap group buys, you will find that 99% of them have MX stems. That means that virtually the entire custom keycap community needs/uses boards with MX stems. The NovaTouch is the only Topre-like keyboard that can take all those millions of custom keycaps, and it only comes in TKL format and only in black. Moreover, there is little evidence that Cooler Master has any interest in continuing the product line, much expanding it into other layouts.
That means RealForce is poised to take the entire Topre+MX market for themselves. This is fantastic news for everyone who owns any of the many fantastic keycap sets that have come out these last several years and also want that Topre experience.
For many of us, typing nirvana will only come when we can put SA keycaps onto genuine Topre switches. The stock PBT caps that come on any board are eBay fodder and nothing more, and contribute zero "charm" to a board whose primary value lies in its switches.
Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.
They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.
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Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.
They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.
Soooo... About that ABS spacebar....
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Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.
They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.
Soooo... About that ABS spacebar....
Does it really NEED replacement
Sent from my local payphone
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
A SA space cadet swap is completely different than swapping a black abs bar for a black pbt bar lol XD
Sent from my local payphone
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Does it really NEED replacement
Sent from my local payphone
Do we really NEED to spend this much on keyboards?
Seriously though, I dislike ABS keycaps and it is a shame to have a spacebar made of an inferior polymer (in terms of wear resistance) in relation to the rest of the keycaps on these boards; it bothers me to know it will degrade sooner rather than later. If it does not bother you, then more power to ya.
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Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.
They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.
Soooo... About that ABS spacebar....
Oh they would definitely benefit from using the pbt spacebars that matt3o had made.
I didn't believe in them until I tried them.
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
A SA space cadet swap is completely different than swapping a black abs bar for a black pbt bar lol XD
Sent from my local payphone
Apologies for the confusion. I was responding to Spamray, not you. I should have quoted his post, but I didn't realize folks were replying so fast and furious and that my post wouldn't immediately follow his (for proper context).
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
A SA space cadet swap is completely different than swapping a black abs bar for a black pbt bar lol XD
Sent from my local payphone
Apologies for the confusion. I was responding to Spamray, not you. I should have quoted his post, but I didn't realize folks were replying so fast and furious and that my post wouldn't immediately follow his (for proper context).
Its a good point nevertheless in regards to the thread
Sent from my local payphone
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
I think it's great if realforce provides the MX compatible stems as an alternative for those desiring to use MX compatible caps but I don't think there should be a complete swap over.
I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
The point I'm making is the stock topre pbt caps are much better than what you will find on other stock keyboards and are actually worth using.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I do agree most stock MX caps are garbage.
And no keyboard comes stock with 7bit's SA caps :P
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
For example, there isn't a Topre keyboard in existance that comes with 7bit's SA Space Cadet set as stock keycaps. Consequently, any RealForce board I might buy would need its stock keycaps replaced. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who feel similarly (albeit about some other custom keycap set).
I think it's great if realforce provides the MX compatible stems as an alternative for those desiring to use MX compatible caps but I don't think there should be a complete swap over.
I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
The point I'm making is the stock topre pbt caps are much better than what you will find on other stock keyboards and are actually worth using.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I do agree most stock MX caps are garbage.
And no keyboard comes stock with 7bit's SA caps :P
There are choices with the MX stems. Some Not so good, some great.
Not many choices with the Topre stems as we know.
I would suspect that the MX compatable stems could be more solid.
I don't see how going MX compatible would be a bad thing.
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I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I confess I don't understand why they wouldn't (or couldn't) offer quality stock caps with MX stems. Could you explain this to me?
As for those making an argument that the Topre stems feel different, I'm not sure I understand that either. What are they comparing it with? A NovaTouch? Is that really a valid comparison in this case? I mean, it's not like the NovaTouch switch is a Topre switch with an MX stem. It is a Topre-like switch (a clone, if you will) with an MX stem. The stem type isn't the only thing that makes them different from each other...
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I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I confess I don't understand why they wouldn't (or couldn't) offer quality stock caps with MX stems. Could you explain this to me?
As for those making an argument that the Topre stems feel different, I'm not sure I understand that either. What are they comparing it with? A NovaTouch? Is that really a valid comparison in this case? I mean, it's not like the NovaTouch switch is a Topre switch with an MX stem. It is a Topre-like switch (a clone, if you will) with an MX stem. The stem type isn't the only thing that makes them different from each other...
I don't doubt they could make mx compatible caps of the same quality as their current stock caps I just don't think they will.
Also the novatouch is topre with mx compatible stems just in a coolermaster case with crappy stock keycaps, the PCB says topre on it, sure the springs aren't gold they are silver and the sliders are mx compatible but the internals are topre.
The point being the way the keycaps will physically attach to the stem will be different therefore the feel will be different.
Now boards like the royal kludge and noppo I would call a topre clone as they came up with their own pcb, different stem mechanism, different domes etc.
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I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I confess I don't understand why they wouldn't (or couldn't) offer quality stock caps with MX stems. Could you explain this to me?
As for those making an argument that the Topre stems feel different, I'm not sure I understand that either. What are they comparing it with? A NovaTouch? Is that really a valid comparison in this case? I mean, it's not like the NovaTouch switch is a Topre switch with an MX stem. It is a Topre-like switch (a clone, if you will) with an MX stem. The stem type isn't the only thing that makes them different from each other...
Every review I read about the Novatouch said that the Novatouch has a genuine Topre switch.
Realforce just put the same hybrid switch on a RealForce didn't they? The RGB one
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I don't think they will still offer quality stock caps with MX stems.
I also think you will find those making an argument that stock topre stems provide a different feeling.
I confess I don't understand why they wouldn't (or couldn't) offer quality stock caps with MX stems. Could you explain this to me?
As for those making an argument that the Topre stems feel different, I'm not sure I understand that either. What are they comparing it with? A NovaTouch? Is that really a valid comparison in this case? I mean, it's not like the NovaTouch switch is a Topre switch with an MX stem. It is a Topre-like switch (a clone, if you will) with an MX stem. The stem type isn't the only thing that makes them different from each other...
Every review I read about the Novatouch said that the Novatouch has a genuine Topre switch.
Realforce just put the same hybrid switch on a RealForce didn't they? The RGB one
I wanted to point out the topre mechanism isn't a discrete switch like mx switches just so that is clear as not everyone realizes that.
It is a sandwiched mechanism of pcb, spring, rubber domes and switch stem with a plate mounted housing or in the case of the hhkb the top case is the stem housing.
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I don't doubt they could make mx compatible caps of the same quality as their current stock caps I just don't think they will.
Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
Also the novatouch is topre with mx compatible stems just in a coolermaster case with crappy stock keycaps, the PCB says topre on it, sure the springs aren't gold they are silver and the sliders are mx compatible but the internals are topre.
The point being the way the keycaps will physically attach to the stem will be different therefore the feel will be different.
Gotcha.
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It's strange, wasn't everybody wishing for this?
Who hasn't seen one of those awesome, well made, and expensive quality sets that they wish could be added to a Topre?
Looks like a win-win situation if they would adopt that stem universally.
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It's strange, wasn't everybody wishing for this?
I certainly was!
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It's strange, wasn't everybody wishing for this?
Who hasn't seen one of those awesome, well made, and expensive quality sets that they wish could be added to a Topre?
Looks like a win-win situation if they would adopt that stem universally.
I think it comes down to this. If you buy a stock MX keyboard you most often need to replace the caps because the stock keycaps are garbage however when buying a stock topre keyboard you don't have to buy new keycaps because the stock keycaps are great.
Just wanting to intermix mx caps and topre to have a pretty keyboard is fine but shouldn't be the default answer.
Again if I buy a topre keyboard its good right out of the box whereas most mx keyboards will automatically need better caps.
Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
I'm not sure but as the board shown was backlit they'll be backlit compatible which normally means they aren't quality caps to begin with. Now that isn't saying they couldn't be but unless they actually release it we won't know.
Last year they advertised a type heaven with the same stems and it was backlit but it never came to market.
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It's strange, wasn't everybody wishing for this?
Who hasn't seen one of those awesome, well made, and expensive quality sets that they wish could be added to a Topre?
Looks like a win-win situation if they would adopt that stem universally.
I think it comes down to this. If you buy a stock MX keyboard you most often need to replace the caps because the stock keycaps are garbage however when buying a stock topre keyboard you don't have to buy new keycaps because the stock keycaps are great.
Just wanting to intermix mx caps and topre to have a pretty keyboard is fine but shouldn't be the default answer.
Again if I buy a topre keyboard its good right out of the box whereas most mx keyboards will automatically need better caps.
Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
I'm not sure but as the board shown was backlit they'll be backlit compatible which normally means they aren't quality caps to begin with. Now that isn't saying they couldn't be but unless they actually release it we won't know.
Last year they advertised a type heaven with the same stems and it was backlit but it never came to market.
It seems that the majority of modding is modding for modding's sake.
Will that sound better if I throw in two more instances of the word modding?
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It's strange, wasn't everybody wishing for this?
Who hasn't seen one of those awesome, well made, and expensive quality sets that they wish could be added to a Topre?
Looks like a win-win situation if they would adopt that stem universally.
I think it comes down to this. If you buy a stock MX keyboard you most often need to replace the caps because the stock keycaps are garbage however when buying a stock topre keyboard you don't have to buy new keycaps because the stock keycaps are great.
Just wanting to intermix mx caps and topre to have a pretty keyboard is fine but shouldn't be the default answer.
Again if I buy a topre keyboard its good right out of the box whereas most mx keyboards will automatically need better caps.
Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
I'm not sure but as the board shown was backlit they'll be backlit compatible which normally means they aren't quality caps to begin with. Now that isn't saying they couldn't be but unless they actually release it we won't know.
Last year they advertised a type heaven with the same stems and it was backlit but it never came to market.
It seems that the majority of modding is modding for modding's sake.
Will that sound better if I throw in two more instances of the word modding?
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Double post
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
MX ain't the only switch that uses mx-spec cruciform (marquardt and futaba... and of course the heavenly MY)
but it's the most popular.
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A strength of the original design is that the keycaps integrate perfectly with the Topre switches, completing the functional unit. Given the variability of keycaps in the Cherry mx world, mixing these with Topre switches will likely result in some functional mismatches.
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Just wanting to intermix mx caps and topre to have a pretty keyboard is fine but shouldn't be the default answer.
Well let's be honest, having a pretty keyboard is pretty much the only reason to intermix MX caps with Topre switches. And apparently it is a pretty popular notion, otherwise Topre wouldn't bother with this.
It will be interesting to see how sales of the MX-stemmed RealForce compare to the original-stemmed RealForce in the years ahead. The old stems could end up going the way of the vinyl record...
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I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Nearly the entire appeal of a RealForce comes from its Topre switches and its build quality.
I don't think it's entirely besides the point... because if you change the caps to cherry compatible, then you change the sliders. You change the sliders, you change the tooling. They're going to end up using the tooling they had for the Novatouch... the board that created its own aftermarket in dental bands.
Anyway, weren't Topre bringing out a new keyboard with MX sliders this year? It'll be interesting to see how the reviews for that one stack up against the Novatouch.
I'm just playing devil's advocate to a certain extent, but I'm not all that convinced about the build quality of the Realforce... it's all of 4 plastic latching tabs that hold together a keyboard with a metal plate in it. No joke, I had to send mine back once because some of the catches opposite the latching tabs had snapped off in transit. I would tentatively suggest that the Leopold is the best of the builds for this one. I'm typing this post on a Dell AT102W and it feels like I can throw it down the stairs with more confidence than I could throw a Realforce down the stairs.
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
honestly I expect them to offer both. Granted theres other options for true keyboards, unicomps exist still
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
honestly I expect them to offer both. Granted theres other options for true keyboards, unicomps exist still
Unicomp may be making an effort to keep the dream alive, but some would contend that their products are a pale imitation of the real thing.
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I trust RealForce to do whatever sells the greatest number of keyboards. My gut tells me that means more MX stem compatibility.
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I trust RealForce to do whatever sells the greatest number of keyboards. My gut tells me that means more MX stem compatibility.
Let's hope your gut is correct and it's not just some indigestion!
:)
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Seeing this and the iRocks switches being MX-mount makes me feel weird. On one hand, it'll mean some nicer feeling switches for the same caps, but on the other that means less interest in Alps mount and Topre mount(but at least they'll be available with MX mount). But then again, Matias killed it's caps relevancy by making them Assdrop-only, and vintages are hard to get here so "iRocks switches + MX caps" may very well be my best shot at an Alps custom.
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MX stems will give users more freedom.
How come there are so many Conservatives in here?
I know the quality of the caps is second to few but would you really be unable to find an MX equivalent?
Moving towards a single standard for keycap mounting should be a desire for everyone.
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I just ordered my first Realforce board and would love the option for more customization if I find that Topres are indeed right for me.
Am I the only one who is reminded of phone charging cables by the controversy about the stems? It was really sucky to have all sorts of different connectors and when the manufacturers settled on microUSB it was awesome! For me, more compatible stems means more awesome custom caps for everyone to enjoy :D
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.
My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards. The keyboard I am using now has UK layout and I have been using German layout on other boards for years.
My keyboard for work has blank caps only because of the scarcity of high-quality caps in Swedish layout.
Only a couple keycap group buys here have ever offered Swedish legends, and at a very high cost. And the people behind those were themselves European. Nobody based in the US who has done a colorway has offered European legends besides UK layout.
The "Nordic" set on my Novatouch is crap. Thin pad-printed ABS, and horribly aligned. A couple of keys are practically unintelligible. And I can't use Cherry profile on Novatouch without O-rings.
Why not? What caps are on the prototype they showed recently?
"A Taiwanese OEM". Double-shot ABS in OEM profile for backlighting.
The caps for the four keys above the numpad were noticeably different - painted and lasered.
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Rant 13: Cherry MX mount is sub-optimal for keyboards, and I hope that it in time is replaced with something better.
The availability of replacement keycap sets it the only thing it has going for it.
1. Profile (This does not apply to Topre)
In general, better-feeling mechanical switches have longer coiled springs. But longer springs means that the keyboard needs to have a higher profile. In a Cherry MX switch, there is a long stem above the spring, which wastes height.
In comparison, IBM Buckling Spring and Hi-Tek "Space Invader" switches have longer springs in switches about the same size because the springs are in the stems and the height is not wasted.
There are switches, such as "Ericsson switches" and "Rafi switches" that also have the spring inside the switch stem, allowing full travel in much smaller profile.
2. Backlighting.
Cherry MX switches were not made for backlighting. The LED position was meant for indicator lights, for Caps Lock, etc.
Therefore, backlit legends are either at the top or the bottom and there is a lot of light bleed onto the mounting plate and other keys. Backlighting is also often not very well diffused over the legends, with a noticeable bright spot in the centres. On some keys the alternative legends are crowded together with the primary legends or not backlit at all.
Backlighting should be in the centre, or at the corners -- which are the two prevailing conventions for keyboard legends. Omron Romer-G, Kailh/Steelseries QS1 and many rubber dome keyboards have got this right.
Topre is basically a rubber dome keyboard, so if they kept refining the existing switch and mount with a translucent dome and hole or light guide in the centre of the stem, I think that Topre could achieve centred backlighting without lightbleed.
3. Stabilisers.
Both Cherry stabilisers, "Costar" stabilisers and Topre-Cherry MX mount stabilisers have holes in the plate which allow dust and liquids to get into the keyboard and onto the circuit board.
In comparison, Alps stabiliser mounts are snapped into small holes and cover the mounting holes completely, but the stabiliser bars are still exposed to dust.
Topre Realforce/HHKB keys have the most elegant stabilisers: the stabiliser bars are integrated into the switch, located below the switch, and there are no separate stabiliser stems for any keys except for the Space Bar.
The stabilised keys on the Novatouch are louder than on Topre Realforce -- although the Realforce's 2.75 right Shift is somewhat more wobbly although not less smooth or louder than a 1u key.
Unlike the Novatouch (and HHKB) Realforce also has the 1.75 u keys Caps Lock and right JIS Shift key stabilised.
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well, i'll just drop this here.
Re*lamdba*lforce RGB is coming, with MX stem as well.
(https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13413570_10209984121228410_8440631138246698381_n.jpg?oh=cb455cfbf58a0ba056a4e4163d040750&oe=58020667)
(https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13406861_10209984146629045_2274220832359789239_n.jpg?oh=353534da89e499a30314e0f8153c8f3a&oe=57CD1D45)
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"A Taiwanese OEM". Double-shot ABS in OEM profile for backlighting.
The caps for the four keys above the numpad were noticeably different - painted and lasered.
I'm pretty sure it's Ducky making the keycaps for them; observe the font on the Shine 5 and compare it to the pictures of the Realforce RGB:
(http://reho.st/preview/self/6eba1e4fefd54bfacb13e7079eb88884c97bf607.jpg) (http://reho.st/self/6eba1e4fefd54bfacb13e7079eb88884c97bf607.jpg)
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I think that part of the charm of the Realforce boards is that you either use their naff legends and their nice PBT caps, or you don't use them at all. It's part of what makes them a little weird and appealing.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Nearly the entire appeal of a RealForce comes from its Topre switches and its build quality. The stock keycaps are entirely besides the point.
If you look at the history of custom keycap group buys, you will find that 99% of them have MX stems. That means that virtually the entire custom keycap community needs/uses boards with MX stems. The NovaTouch is the only Topre-like keyboard that can take all those millions of custom keycaps, and it only comes in TKL format and only in black. Moreover, there is little evidence that Cooler Master has any interest in continuing the product line, much expanding it into other layouts.
That means RealForce is poised to take the entire Topre+MX market for themselves. This is fantastic news for everyone who owns any of the many fantastic keycap sets that have come out these last several years and also want that Topre experience.
For many of us, typing nirvana will only come when we can put SA keycaps onto genuine Topre switches. The stock PBT caps that come on any board are eBay fodder and nothing more, and contribute zero "charm" to a board whose primary value lies in its switches.
Stock topre pbt caps are premium quality caps and that is part of the appeal.
They don't need to be replaced like almost all stock MX caps.
They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.
My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards.
Well, judging from the numbers, I'm speaking for many more people than just myself. The ANSI tribe is big and strong.
Users who need very nation-specific ISO keycaps are always screwed by their own tiny market size. That's not really the fault of the stem format, but of the realities of the keycap marketplace in general.
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True, they don't need to be replaced. But most custom keycap buyers don't buy sets because the stock caps on their boards are bad. They buy them because they offer colorways, novelties, and profiles (spherical in particular) that stock keycaps don't.
Speak for yourself.
My Realforce has Swedish legends from the start because Realforce made them that way.
It took me several years to collect various Cherry keycaps from multiple keyboards before I could get good Swedish caps for my Cherry MX boards.
Well, judging from the numbers, I'm speaking for many more people than just myself. The ANSI tribe is big and strong.
Users who need very nation-specific ISO keycaps are always screwed by their own tiny market size. That's not really the fault of the stem format, but of the realities of the keycap marketplace in general.
Swedish, ya gotta be kiddin' me...
You Swedish guys kill me. Always tryin' to jump places in line.
When I get my Sanskrit and Cuneiform keysets then you guys can whine, but not one second before...
:cool:
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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.
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Cherry-stem versions of RF keyboards will satisfy a potentially relatively large market segment. However, I certainly hope that Topre/RF will also maintain its standard tried-and-true switch/stem design.
Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.
In contrast, Topre keycaps made for standard Topre switches snap neatly into place within the switch stem at a defined vertical distance and lateral clearance. The cap and switch form an integral functional unit in a similar way to the union of cap and switch barrel in IBM buckling spring keyboards.
While I welcome the variety afforded by some models of Topre-switch keyboards with Cherry mx-compatible stems, it would be a great pity if Topre were to abandon the original design that works so beautifully.
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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.
I don't think that "that could be a possibility". If keycaps from the same production line go into both Realforces and HHKBs, then both would be getting the result of the switch.
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Let's hope not.
HHKB will be the last true keyboard if RF betrays the keyboard gods and puts cherry **** from now on.
honestly I expect them to offer both. Granted theres other options for true keyboards, unicomps exist still
Unicomp may be making an effort to keep the dream alive, but some would contend that their products are a pale imitation of the real thing.
and unless they are talking about model fs I would say they are 100% wrong. They use the same tools as lexmark did at the end but offer better quality boards than did lexmark including a case less prone to breaking. Now if you wanna say lexmark did a number on the model m and unicomp has to live with it and therefore makes worse boards than ibm in say 85 I'd agree
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Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.
We won't know until we get our hands on one, but in theory Topre could make (or have sourced to their specifications) MX-stemmed keycaps that fit perfectly onto their new switches. Just as perfectly as the current stock keycaps on the current switch stems. The method of attachment will be different, sure, but all this business about varying dimensions and friction fit could (and should) be moot if Topre assumes (design/quality) control over whatever MX-stemmed stock keycaps they put on the new model.
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Keycaps for Cherry mx stems come in many varieties of materials and profiles. In addition, there are variable dimensions with respect to the relative length of stem and the skirt of the cap, as well as variable friction fit of the cap stem receptacle to the cruciform switch stem.
We won't know until we get our hands on one, but in theory Topre could make (or have sourced to their specifications) MX-stemmed keycaps that fit perfectly onto their new switches. Just as perfectly as the current stock keycaps on the current switch stems. The method of attachment will be different, sure, but all this business about varying dimensions and friction fit could (and should) be moot if Topre assumes (design/quality) control over whatever MX-stemmed stock keycaps they put on the new model.
It would be great if Topre were to do this. However, it appears that their first model has DS caps with translucent plastic for the legends illuminated with LEDs; I would assume that the surrounding plastic is ABS, but I do not know. I also do not know how well these caps are engineered. It will be interesting to see what they do with their first model and subsequently.
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They could update their cap production to include MX stem compatible PBT caps.
MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
I was referring to PBT caps for the new MX-compatible RealForce keyboards but, sure, that could be a possibility as well.
I don't think that "that could be a possibility". If keycaps from the same production line go into both Realforces and HHKBs, then both would be getting the result of the switch.
If. I haven't seen anything indicating the HHKB will receive MX compatible stems.
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We haven't seen anything indicating the non-backlit realforces will receive MX compatible stems.
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MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
HHKB ≠ Topre.
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MX-compatible stems on HHKB…?
HHKB ≠ Topre.
Sure, the first generation was made by Fujitsu AFAIK, the OEM for Lite is Chicony and only Pro is related to Topre at all. I guess it's obvious, that the talk is about Pro in this context.
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Sure, the first generation was made by Fujitsu AFAIK, the OEM for Lite is Chicony and only Pro is related to Topre at all. I guess it's obvious, that the talk is about Pro in this context.
That is not what I meant. Regardless of the HHKB's use of their switches, Topre do not support the HHKB Pro in that it is not their product. This was discussed in Matt3o's thread when he was designing a new keyset for them. Don't get me wrong though, I'd love to see it happen, given the oneness with cup rubber feeling is not altered.
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If the manufacturer changes their molds, the product will change, regardless of its brand.
If Topre stops producing Topre-mount sliders and keycaps, PFU can (a) accept the change or (b) find some other manufacturer.
OP asks, if Topre will abandon Topre mount on their keyboards. The obvious question arises: if they do, will they keep the production of Topre-mount switches/caps for PFU's HHKB?
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My hope is that Topre will choose to diversify rather than transform. That is, I would like to see the standard Topre switch maintained in parallel with the Cherry-stem Topre switch. This would enable PFU to continue making the HHKB Pro 2 with standard Topre switches, and if they were to choose to do so, to introduce in parallel an additional HHKB Pro 2 model with Cherry stem Topre switches. The same would apply to the Topre Realforce models.
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It seems most likely, to me anyway, that Topre (along with interested third party vendors who source their switches) will provide MX- and traditional Topre mounts in parallel product lines for a while. But as with all things, ultimately the marketplace will vote with its wallet and one or the other may die on the vine due to lack of sufficient demand. Only time will tell.
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My hope is that Topre will choose to diversify rather than transform. That is, I would like to see the standard Topre switch maintained in parallel with the Cherry-stem Topre switch. This would enable PFU to continue making the HHKB Pro 2 with standard Topre switches, and if they were to choose to do so, to introduce in parallel an additional HHKB Pro 2 model with Cherry stem Topre switches. The same would apply to the Topre Realforce models.
You could only hope but I feel like they might just stick with whatever grabs the most money.