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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: mrbishop on Fri, 17 June 2016, 11:44:10

Title: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Fri, 17 June 2016, 11:44:10
Many of us have felt the joy and pain of hand wiring a custom keyboard. wires everywhere teensy controller spider web. but its not built expressly for that. it works and works well. i'm using several on my boards including the one i'm typing this on, so no love lost on the teensy. But what if there was a controller designed expressly for hand wired keyboards.... Logical pin hole layouts making things more straight forward, software designed around the pin layout making programming more streamlined. One controller to rule them all so to speak. from a keyboard as small as a number pad to one as large as some of the IBM boards.

i started with the teensy 2++, why? because it has 45 GPIO pins. allowing for a really huge key layout AND room for other fun things to be added like Bluetooth etc using the extra pins. A "hacker space" to steal the term. using this model it would be naively compatible with TMK which already has a developed community of support.

I wanted to design it small but with a logical "L" shape. this makes wiring a "no brainier". I also wanted to include a USB remote header so the USB port could be located somewhere else on the board.

this would also allow for a jumping off point for a full keyboard PCB to be designed using the sketch and components just adding the switches and resistors.

this will be GPL3 open source. make it sell it change it.
if you want to contribute please let me know and i'll add you to the github

i'm a novice electrical engineer so bare with me.
i plan on getting some prototypes made as soon as the design evolves alittle. there is alot of wasted un used space that i want to clean up.

there is no real name for it at the moment. so any help with that is welcome.

here is the idea so far. and its very much still an idea.
[attach=1]

over all goal is to be able to have these manufactured for around the price of a teensy2++ 30$ price point.
TMK software bundle would have direct notations that reference the simplified nomenclature on the silk screens (R1,R2,C1,C2 etc (Row, Col)) making it novice friendly.

as always your thoughts are appreciated.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: joey on Sat, 18 June 2016, 03:35:32
I'm not sure I understand how this helps with hand wiring. To me the process looks exactly the same, apart from the controller is L-shaped not rectangular.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 18 June 2016, 04:01:28
First I have to say I love this idea - a standardised handwire setup would reduce the confusion when it came to firmware, but what I'm struggling with is why you've chosen this shape.

I guess you were thinking lots of columns across the bottom and six rows up the L as this is most newbie friendly?   That would mean for a super tidy build with no overlapping wires the controller would have to be in the corner of the board.  That got me thinking where it could go but in a 60% there is nowhere, unless you use a tall case and put it below some switches but then how could you secure it...

Just thinking out loud, please excuse the negativity :))
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: ProCarpet on Sun, 19 June 2016, 10:19:43
I love the idea of standartising this. The mounting points are pretty cool and usefull. But with this L-shape will it fit in spaces where the teensy 2.0 fits? like above the arow keys. Seperated usb plug is awesome.

Just a though wouldnt a connector / interface be usefull for something like further expansions ( like a rgb led contorller)?
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 00:05:33
Quote from: ProCarpet on Sun, 19 June 2016, 10:19:43
I love the idea of standartising this. The mounting points are pretty cool and usefull. But with this L-shape will it fit in spaces where the teensy 2.0 fits? like above the arow keys. Seperated usb plug is awesome.

Just a though wouldnt a connector / interface be usefull for something like further expansions ( like a rgb led contorller)?
There are a ton of gpio left over after the pinout for the rows and columns. The plan is for the remaining connections to have pinholes created for them. As for the L shape I have some ideas that may resolve this. It's a work in progress. All ideas are very welcome.

Long term goals would include making this available on oshpark as well as having fully assembled and tested boards available at reasonable prices if not near cost. Open source is desire here. The more involvement. Backing. And help in development the faster it all comes to reality.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 12:27:36
ive been doing alot of thinking. and as a rev 1 i think simplifying the teensy situation may be a good place to begin.

instead of re-inventing the wheel. why not make the teensy hand wiring solution abit more noob friendly. what i'm proposing is a standardized pin out that marries with the TMK back end. all nice and notated etc etc.
teensys are already in production so no mess there. just an off the shelf part. easy. the pic below is what i'm referring too. not a final product but the unfolding on the idea on paper.

[attach=1]

keep the comments coming. thank you all for your input.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:16:26
That could work too, but we need to make sure the PWM pins are not used in the matrix as they're better for LEDs, I2C are used for I/O expanders for split boards, serial(?) for bluetooth...

I quite liked the idea of a custom PCB though, I was thinking whether it could be made to fit under a 2.75 cap with a switch hole in it so it could be attached to the spacebar switch even on a split spacebar build, but didn't get round to trying it.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:26:09
Quote from: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:16:26
That could work too, but we need to make sure the PWM pins are not used in the matrix as they're better for LEDs, I2C are used for I/O expanders for split boards, serial(?) for bluetooth...

I quite liked the idea of a custom PCB though, I was thinking whether it could be made to fit under a 2.75 cap with a switch hole in it so it could be attached to the spacebar switch even on a split spacebar build, but didn't get round to trying it.

i was looking at it and if we use the AT90usb1286 it wont fit between keys even if turned 45 degrees. trying to take a step back and regroup on this. i think getting the pinouts sorted then moving towards a custom PCB may be a better starting point. as the plan is for the same logic controller so the pins would be the same.

i'd like a custom PCB too just want to make sure everything happens in order.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:38:46
Fair enough, my thinkig was it wouldn't have fo fit neatly under the 2.75, could be 1.5u tall in the middle and 0.5u towards the edges to avoid other switches...

If you've tried similar I won't have to :)
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:59:22
Quote from: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:38:46
Fair enough, my thinkig was it wouldn't have fo fit neatly under the 2.75, could be 1.5u tall in the middle and 0.5u towards the edges to avoid other switches...

If you've tried similar I won't have to :)

the only way i got it to fit would require modifying some of the key switch pins. removing the PCB mount plastic switch posts. then it will barely fit not sure about traces tho. never got that far. took one look and wasn't happy.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:01:21
Quote from: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:59:22
Quote from: suicidal_orange on Mon, 20 June 2016, 13:38:46
Fair enough, my thinkig was it wouldn't have fo fit neatly under the 2.75, could be 1.5u tall in the middle and 0.5u towards the edges to avoid other switches...

If you've tried similar I won't have to :)

the only way i got it to fit would require modifying some of the key switch pins. removing the PCB mount plastic switch posts. then it will barely fit not sure about traces tho. never got that far. took one look and wasn't happy.

this was with the larger AT90 which would be preferred but the ATMEGA32u may fit altho it wouldn't work on larger 104 keyboards or anything that really wanted RGB
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:28:54
I think a simple kit including the teensy, some hardware to fix it to cases, a pack of diodes, a cd or a link to access files with codes for the more common layouts and detailed step by step instructions may help a lot; because, now each person interested in hand wiring should google and read more than one source to get examples of codes, links to buy the teensy, the diodes, the cables and should have to figure out how to put everything together.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:44:49
Quote from: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:28:54
I think a simple kit including the teensy, some hardware to fix it to cases, a pack of diodes, a cd or a link to access files with codes for the more common layouts and detailed step by step instructions may help a lot; because, now each person interested in hand wiring should google and read more than one source to get examples of codes, links to buy the teensy, the diodes, the cables and should have to figure out how to put everything together.

i'd agree. i just think it could all be alittle more straight forward. streamlined if you will.

the community does an amazing job helping people out dont get me wrong. ive been on the receiving end several times. but i think there is plenty of opportunity for it to be made more noob friendly out of the box.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:52:31
Quote from: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:44:49
Quote from: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:28:54
I think a simple kit including the teensy, some hardware to fix it to cases, a pack of diodes, a cd or a link to access files with codes for the more common layouts and detailed step by step instructions may help a lot; because, now each person interested in hand wiring should google and read more than one source to get examples of codes, links to buy the teensy, the diodes, the cables and should have to figure out how to put everything together.

i'd agree. i just think it could all be alittle more straight forward. streamlined if you will.

the community does an amazing job helping people out dont get me wrong. ive been on the receiving end several times. but i think there is plenty of opportunity for it to be made more noob friendly out of the box.

I agree; also, you could implement a service where the customer could send you a layout using the keyboard layout editor and you could provide a preconfigured code for it, plus detailed instructions on the teensy model, the wiring scheme and the instructions to put together everything. I am sure, more than one could pay for it, for some others that want the full DIY experience maybe the kit could be more appropriate.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:58:54
Quote from: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:52:31
Quote from: mrbishop on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:44:49
Quote from: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 14:28:54
I think a simple kit including the teensy, some hardware to fix it to cases, a pack of diodes, a cd or a link to access files with codes for the more common layouts and detailed step by step instructions may help a lot; because, now each person interested in hand wiring should google and read more than one source to get examples of codes, links to buy the teensy, the diodes, the cables and should have to figure out how to put everything together.

i'd agree. i just think it could all be alittle more straight forward. streamlined if you will.

the community does an amazing job helping people out dont get me wrong. ive been on the receiving end several times. but i think there is plenty of opportunity for it to be made more noob friendly out of the box.

I agree; also, you could implement a service where the customer could send you a layout using the keyboard layout editor and you could provide a preconfigured code for it, plus detailed instructions on the teensy model, the wiring scheme and the instructions to put together everything. I am sure, more than one could pay for it, for some others that want the full DIY experience maybe the kit could be more appropriate.

i have something in the works. standardizing the pin outs is step one.  ;)
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: MajorKoos on Mon, 20 June 2016, 18:23:02
I definitely think you're onto something here, and the breakout for relocating the USB plug is the key.

TechKeys stocks this item called the enabler:
    http://techkeys.us/collections/accessories/products/the-enabler

There is a 6.25u version designed to fit under the spacebar.
There should be lots of room there to break out all the pins.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 18:53:24
Quote from: MajorKoos on Mon, 20 June 2016, 18:23:02
I definitely think you're onto something here, and the breakout for relocating the USB plug is the key.

TechKeys stocks this item called the enabler:
    http://techkeys.us/collections/accessories/products/the-enabler

There is a 6.25u version designed to fit under the spacebar.
There should be lots of room there to break out all the pins.

The enabler is a nice idea, but it is even more expensive than a PCB, that defeats the entire concept of low cost hand wired solutions.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: KitWasHere on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:11:32
I think this a really great idea and could make things much easier. I was following a thread on Deskthority on this (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html)) and a user "pomk" posted (https://deskthority.net/resources/image/30098)
which I think is probably the best way to go about this. Mounting to a key or two directly lets you forget about screw holes and lets the end user's case be thinner. Pads for an off board USB like in the OP I think would make this layout even better
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 22:32:52
Quote from: KitWasHere on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:11:32
I think this a really great idea and could make things much easier. I was following a thread on Deskthority on this (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html)) and a user posted
Show Image
(https://deskthority.net/resources/image/30098)

which I think is probably the best way to go about this. Mounting to a key or two directly lets you forget about screw holes and lets the end user's case be thinner. Pads for an off board USB like in the OP I think would make this layout even better

Thank you for sharing, this is really a great idea. I made a quick reading on that thread, but it was not clear to me if there is some sort of timeline to have it actually made, having Matt involved it seems that it may reach production through MD at some point, any ideas on timing?
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 04:37:38
I was about to link to the deskthority thread, although we've sort of slowed down in the past month or so.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: MajorKoos on Tue, 21 June 2016, 06:25:01
Quote from: ideus on Mon, 20 June 2016, 18:53:24
Quote from: MajorKoos on Mon, 20 June 2016, 18:23:02
I definitely think you're onto something here, and the breakout for relocating the USB plug is the key.

TechKeys stocks this item called the enabler:
    http://techkeys.us/collections/accessories/products/the-enabler

There is a 6.25u version designed to fit under the spacebar.
There should be lots of room there to break out all the pins.

The enabler is a nice idea, but it is even more expensive than a PCB, that defeats the entire concept of low cost hand wired solutions.

I meant building the controller the OP suggested in the form of a 6.25u enabler so it can get stuck under the key and save some space, not wiring up a whole board with the things.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 21 June 2016, 06:29:55
Following this thread as I've got a few projects I'd like to handwire.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:13:36
excellent ideas and suggestions all of you. i think the biggest challenge is that the controller i'm proposing is the AT90USB which is almost twice as big as the ATMega32 which is alot of the issue here. its size makes it really annoying to place anywhere altho i have another idea i'm going to explore today. i like the space bar idea but alot of users are starting to enjoy split space bars so having it small enough to fit in a 3u or 2u would be optimal. tinkering continues. thank you all for your suggestions.

anyone who wants to become more involved in the process please IM me. i love the brain storming!
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: joey on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:29:49
What's special about the AT90USB? Is it just more pins?
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:39:56
Quote from: joey on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:29:49
What's special about the AT90USB? Is it just more pins?

correct. more pins. the first idea was "one controller to rule them all" but i'm quickly finding out that this wont work due to size restrictions as you will see in the picture below.

AT90 on the Left ATMega32 on the right.
caps size i'm testing with are [1.25][2][1.25]

i think like the teensy 2 this project will require 2 pcb's to handle different users requirements for pins.

the AT90 is just to big to put on a 60% board much less anything smaller at least not in a universal configuration. custom boards for custom keyboards perhaps thats just the natural way. altho part of this project is to provide a schematic made avaliable for users to create their own custom controller based around, well now, two chips. one for smaller boards 60% or less and one for larger boards or boards requireing more than 23 pins to work (row+col+led)
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 11:16:10
I know this would sound discouraging, but what is your project trying to do differently as compared to the project on DT. I ask this because we also faced similar issue with size, pins, etc and thus decided on the ARM solution.

Sorry, I couldn't word this without sounding rude.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: mrbishop on Tue, 21 June 2016, 11:44:52
Quote from: MOZ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 11:16:10
I know this would sound discouraging, but what is your project trying to do differently as compared to the project on DT. I ask this because we also faced similar issue with size, pins, etc and thus decided on the ARM solution.

Sorry, I couldn't word this without sounding rude.

perhaps it ruffly has the same end goal. i haddnt seen any movement on the thread in afew weeks so i wasn't sure if it had gone cold.

as for the wording, i do not take offence that easily MOZ ;) i'd rather have someone tell me the truth than to sugar coat something. at any rate since the development of a dedicated PCB controller is already in the works i will shift gears to the had wired Teensy solution. as it is an off the shelf part that can be purchased easily. building documentation and notating firmware files for a more noob-friendly off-the-shelf solution.

i need to get better at EDC design anyway so i'll keep tinkering.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: pomk on Tue, 21 June 2016, 17:32:40
Quote from: KitWasHere on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:11:32
I think this a really great idea and could make things much easier. I was following a thread on Deskthority on this (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html (https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/can-we-design-the-teensy-alternative-for-keyboards-t13662.html)) and a user posted
Show Image
(https://deskthority.net/resources/image/30098)

which I think is probably the best way to go about this. Mounting to a key or two directly lets you forget about screw holes and lets the end user's case be thinner. Pads for an off board USB like in the OP I think would make this layout even better

Please quote / crosspost keeping usernames in the loop, it's quite rude to omit them.
Title: Re: Building a better handwired solution
Post by: KitWasHere on Tue, 21 June 2016, 20:31:30
fair enough, added