geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Buckling_Summer on Mon, 04 January 2010, 04:00:31
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I am very angry and very sad.
I have just received an IBM Model F, PC-AT keyboard (supposed refurbished but fully functional).
4 crucial keys are not clicky and NOT WORKING at all.
" [ "
" TAB "
" D "
" K "
I cannot describe with words how bad I am feeling right now!
****.. This new year starts with grief.
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Where did you get this from? If you got it off Ebay, let us know which seller.
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4 crucial keys are not clicky and NOT WORKING at all.
" [ "
" TAB "
" D "
" K "
Once pull out those keys and reseat them back properly.
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Sandy's advice should work, although I'd add to it by pointing out that you should hold the keyboard up, and keep it upside-down while you reinsert the key. This ensures the spring lines up with the notch inside the keycap correctly.
My Model F did at one point have a dodgy Y key. Every once in a while it would jam up so that it didn't click and you'd have to press it a few times to get it clicking again. This issue went away when I disassembled it completely.
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I'd try rebuilding the keyswitches to the maximum extent that does not require removing the metal plate. Take out the key and the spring and make sure it looks like the others.
I'd give the guy on ebay a nice low rating. He sold you something he said worked and it doesn't.
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I'd try rebuilding the keyswitches to the maximum extent that does not require removing the metal plate. Take out the key and the spring and make sure it looks like the others.
I'd give the guy on ebay a nice low rating. He sold you something he said worked and it doesn't.
As I've said, buckling springs don't travel well. There seems to be a lot of people who require the keycaps to be reseated when they've got a Model M from eBay, or a Unicomp. People who've had them shipped overseas seem to be the worst affected.
Also, opening the plate on a Model F is a trivial job because the top plate is also made of metal, and therefore they just slide into eachother. You can break down and reassemble a Model F within a half hour.
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So they don't have the rivets of a Model M? This makes me want to get a Model F terminal keyboard even more.
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Guys, i did not buy from eBay!
And that's the shocking thing.
Thanks a lot for the technical details but I have never opened a keyboard before.
I am not paid for fixing keyboards. I pay for good working keyboards.
In times of financial crisis, for me to have given lots of money for something broken is tragic.
Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).
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No need to open your F, just pull out 4 keys and put them back according to ch_123's advice. If a key buckles and clicks it will register a symbol assigned. if it doesn't buckle, it won't register anything ( or may register randomly ).
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Guys, i did not buy from eBay!
And that's the shocking thing.
Thanks a lot for the technical details but I have never opened a keyboard before.
The disassembly was something that would only happen in very extreme cases. The keycap removal will take all of ten seconds and should fix your issues.
I am not paid for fixing keyboards. I pay for good working keyboards.
In times of financial crisis, for me to have given lots of money for something broken is tragic.
When you are dealing with 25 year old electronics, you need to be prepared to deal with at least some issues.
Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).
Probably an issue with your motherboard. Ironically, a USB adapter would probably solve your problems here.
So they don't have the rivets of a Model M? This makes me want to get a Model F terminal keyboard even more.
No, and the PCB slots into the back plate. See this. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6580)
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Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).
This is an issue I have heard of. Apparently some computers do not provide enough power from their PS/2 port to allow a Model M to be used, and I suppose this would also apply to a Model F.
Early third-party PC keyboards also had an XT/AT switch, because the original IBM PC was built before the AT introduced Scan Code Set 2, and would therefore not handle a newer keyboard properly. I suppose it might also be possible, although I have not heard of it happening, that a computer might have a BIOS issue preventing it from working with a Scan Code Set 1 - only keyboard as well.
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This is an issue I have heard of. Apparently some computers do not provide enough power from their PS/2 port to allow a Model M to be used, and I suppose this would also apply to a Model F.
Early third-party PC keyboards also had an XT/AT switch, because the original IBM PC was built before the AT introduced Scan Code Set 2, and would therefore not handle a newer keyboard properly. I suppose it might also be possible, although I have not heard of it happening, that a computer might have a BIOS issue preventing it from working with a Scan Code Set 1 - only keyboard as well.
My model M works fine though in the new PC.
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When you are dealing with 25 year old electronics, you need to be prepared to deal with at least some issues.
Yes you are right from your point of view. But they advertise 100% functionality. When you have paid 185 dollars you are prepared to get a decent working model F. Used keyboard but working keyboard for god's sake.
More to say later about them.
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No need to open your F, just pull out 4 keys and put them back according to ch_123's advice. If a key buckles and clicks it will register a symbol assigned. if it doesn't buckle, it won't register anything ( or may register randomly ).
Thanks brothers for all the support.
How am i supposed to pull the keys out?
By what means of an instrument? A Screwdriver, a knife or with pliers?
Any post with photo-instructions? I know it is easy but just to be sure.
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Thanks brothers for all the support.
How am i supposed to pull the keys out?
By what means of an instrument? A Screwdriver, a knife or with pliers?
Any post with photo-instructions? I know it is easy but just to be sure.
The keys come off of buckling springs really easily. A butter knife is as easy as anything.
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Use a flathead screwdriver. Just stick it under the cap and yank upwards. Unlike with other mechanisms, the keycaps for buckling springs are very hard to damage so you don't have to worry about breaking it.
I'd take a pic, but I don't have access to any of my buckling spring keyboards at the moment.
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I fixed it! This is probably my first geekhack operation..
I used a flat head screwdriver with careful movements.
I repositioned all the keycaps by pushing down them and tilting forward the keyboard. Not necessary upside down. Phew! Now I can sleep OK.
All springs in place.. Now I am giving it a test -type..
The SPACE key feels much more hard than my Model M. Is it normal?
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Yeah, the space bar is usually about 50% more stiff than the rest of the keys. You get used to it after a little while.
It isn't absolutely necessary to hold it upside-down. Tilting it forward would have the same effect, but upside-down is just the way I do it.
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I am happy. Thanks to you all guys.
And the seller contact me ASAP to tell me not to worry. It is caused from the transport overseas.
Now I must search for a PS2-to-USB adaptor that works fine with the model F as well as with the sweet Lexmarkian model M 82G2383 I've got.
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Check this out. (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-A-Male-to-PS-2-Female-PS2-Active-Keyboard-Adapter_W0QQitemZ390134508024QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item5ad5d429f8)
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Depends on where the key is. If it's in amongst other keys, I use the screwdriver. If it's on the periphery, I can usually take it out with my fingers.
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The space bar on my Model F XT isn't too bad, but the AT version I have is incredibly stiff... to the point where I don't particularly enjoy using it. It really doesn't feel as nice as the XT, which is a shame because I can actually tolerate the AT's layout.
Like others have noted, depending on various factors, such as the phase of the moon or how many dogs are barking when you open the box, one or more keys on a model M keyboard may be befunged upon receipt. Usually a good reseating will fix the problem. On rare occasions multiple reseatings may be necessary. One of the M2s I bought last year had a problem with the enter key on the keypad sticking (and not clicking, either). After about eight or nine reseatings it finally started behaving properly.
My Model F XT arrived with about twenty keys knocked clean off. I was pretty concerned at first, but there was no actual damage... just a rough transit!
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Congratulations on your first fix, 'Summer. We'll have you deep in the electronics in no time!:evil:
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Glad it's working. That spacebar is 90g. Not a keyboard for girlyman thumbs.
Another reason to buy NIB, the foam keeps the keys from popping off.
It makes sense to have your two strongest "fingers" get the most load, though, doesn't it?
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Glad it's working. That spacebar is 90g. Not a keyboard for girlyman thumbs.
Another reason to buy NIB, the foam keeps the keys from popping off.
Is there actually foam covering the top plate on your Model F?
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Is there actually foam covering the top plate on your Model F?
Ripster! This is a NIB!!! New Baby.
Is this the last aprox. $450 model F NIB I saw in clickykeyboards?
By the way: IBM Model F PC-AT 84 keys => First Impressions.
Sound-Clickiness: I think that sounds completely different than my Model-M. It is not louder, but it is definetely crispier, sweeter and high pitched!
Performance- Tactile Feeling: Perfect, great tactile feedback. I am typing faster on my Model-F already. Ideal distance, bouncing back, better springs. I do not know. I feel that when the Model-F spring buckles, the key bottoms out in less time than the Model-M.
Video- Appearance: Vintage dream, you know this nice old-school feeling. I love the 80s.
Endurance in time: Seems like a Soviet tank. Don't know, even not a NIB I hope it lasts. What do you think about the springs?
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Endurance in time: Seems like a Soviet tank. Don't know, even not a NIB I hope it lasts. What do you think about the springs?
Well, according to Unicomp, the Model M buckling springs last just about forever, so I would think that the Model F springs would last just about as long, if not longer.
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MaxLugar said that the worse of his 8 Model Fs was better than his best Model M, and that his NIB one wasn't that much better than some of the used ones he had.
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That's incredible.. That's why they call it the king of keyboards!
Now my Model-M seems to be softer.
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This is one of those posts where you wish Vbulletin would allow the OP to change Post Titles.
I wonder why that is (the ability to change the title, that is). It would prevent a lot of the duplicate posts (especially in the Marketplace).
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Guess vB doesn't have a very good database design, then.
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Something to do with referential integrity in the database (basically, all the references to the title on the site would need to be altered, and though that's not really a big job, there must be concerns about the software reliably doing it or they'd allow it).
Wow, I actually did learn something in Intro to Databases.
Good to hear the OP's big clicky disappointment turned into a big clicky success though!
I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!
The geekhack community forum should dedicate 100% all its threads to the history, performance, troubleshooting and revival of the legendary model-F and all the imaginary clones of it. Viva the capacitative buckling springs*
General Ban in all the other switches. For the benefit of Mankind.
* or beam springs i have never felt on my fingertips?
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I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!
As you note, there are still the beam springs to consider.
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UPDATE THREAD_ID_TABLE
SET THREAD_TITLE = 'Something'
WHERE THREAD_ID = 1234
If it isn't any easier than this, I would question the vB database structure. If the reference for any other table is the thread name, that would be crappy.
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Yes you are right from your point of view. But they advertise 100% functionality. When you have paid 185 dollars you are prepared to get a decent working model F. Used keyboard but working keyboard for god's sake.
More to say later about them.
$185? wow. shoulda spent a little more to get a Realforce.
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revival of the legendary model-F
i vote YES
:thumb:
now, who has injection-molding and spring-winding equipment? :)
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That mod of yours DOES seem to be taking a while.
told u ;)
I don't think there any inactive switch pads (like the 4 or 5 on a Model M) I could access on this are there?
here are the pads in the main block. there are quite a few in the Enter area, but only a couple extras in the bottom row:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7006&stc=1&d=1262635729)
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Just pry 'em off. I do that to my IBM all the time!
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I found a site where I can buy a Model F 122-key terminal board. If I get it I'll take it apart for the Kishy mod and report to you guys whether or not there are any empty contacts.
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Been there, done that.
Oddly enough, some of the contacts didn't pick up anything. The one between L-Shift and Z worked fine though.
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If you've got the money, go for it. Your contribution to the terminal keyboard information collection would be greatly appreciated :)
And you know I'm currently selling a Model M version, right? I'm sure the Fs are more entertaining though.
I already have a Model M (an M5-2 that is) and have wanted to have a Model F since they feel different. I might get an M terminal keyboard later though.
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My Model F XT arrived with about twenty keys knocked clean off. I was pretty concerned at first, but there was no actual damage... just a rough transit!
When I got my model F AT, one of the function keys was missing, either from overseas shipment or because the customs agency was a bit rough when they opened the heavy box. I started panicking at first because I couldn't find the keycap in that box full of styrofoam chips, thinking it might have fallen out.
Turned out it was just hiding somewhere in a corner behind a heap of the pink stuff. Now I know why some of the best sellers wrap their keyboards in plastic foil before stuffing it into those chips...
Somebody was going to post a spacebar mod.
Yeah, that's me. I'm just lazy and haven't got around to typing it out completely. The spacebar spring is actually easy to mod, but I wanted to add a complete tutorial on (dis-)assembly of a model F because it turns out that is the hardest part.
Basically, you take the spacebar spring, hold it above your thigh in the same fashion it would sit in the keyboard when it is wholly assembled and push down the ends for about 3-5 cm.
Where a normal spring is about 5-6mm high, the bent spring should be about 3mm. This way, I got a comfortable 60g. You can go lower, but this means that the spacebar won't have enough upforce to properly debuckle all the time.
You can see it needs some pictures though - pure text-form can be somewhat cryptic.
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I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use. Anyone have any recommendations for replacement cables for it for PC usage?
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The cable from an AT Model F is probably the best, but you can easily make a suitable cable from a standard PS/2 cable. There's a pinout for the board somewhere or other, I'll post it if I find it.
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I'm not sure if I can find one of those, but I have an old SDL cable that came from an M5-2. I'll see if I can use the keyboard part of that.
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Wouldn't bother wasting a good SDL cable on it. Dig an old keyboard out of skip, steal it's PS/2 cable and wire it up to the Berg connector inside the Model F.
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I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use.
Is that 122 keys one? I read IBM wiki but still confusing. and to convert it requires just rewiring, right?
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Sorry about that, the IBM Wiki doesn't have an awful lot of info on the terminal keyboards at the moment. Yeah, they would be similar to the PC 3270 Model F keyboard you can see in the IBM Wiki.
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I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use. Anyone have any recommendations for replacement cables for it for PC usage?
See this. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=112131&postcount=118)
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I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!
The geekhack community forum should dedicate 100% all its threads to the history, performance, troubleshooting and revival of the legendary model-F and all the imaginary clones of it. Viva the capacitative buckling springs*
General Ban in all the other switches. For the benefit of Mankind.
* or beam springs i have never felt on my fingertips?
Congratulations and well said. I'm pleased you're enjoying your "new" 84-key PC AT keyboard!
I've tried many keyboards and like a lot of different key switches, but the the 84-key PC AT Model F is as good as it gets. Regardless of it's detractors, it truly is the KING of keyboards.
My NIB is not that different from my used 84-keys so don't worry about it wearing out or even the feel of the springs significantly changing over time.
Beam spring keyboards sound great in theory, but have you ever typed on one? I haven't. Can they even be converted to work with a modern PC?
You will probably try many different keyboards, but if you are like me, you will always return to your 84-key PC AT keyboard.
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All this model F talk has me jonesing to dig mine out of storage at my parents house. I made them SWEAR not to do anything with it or the vintage IBM PC that it came with, but I have this sinking feeling it might not be there... I need to call them and remind them how much their son loves them and appreciates them. And perhaps in passing bring up that old computer in storage and see if they sound guilty or play it cool.
Congrats on the Model F and I'm glad you got the switches all settled in and working!
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Hmm.... Looks to me it's a candidate for Model M International style mod. Pop an extra switch module above that Enter key and hope a unique scan code pops up.
Someone else go first.
We're still talking about the 84-key Model F, right?
http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_6450225.html (http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_6450225.html)
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All this model F talk has me jonesing to dig mine out of storage at my parents house. I made them SWEAR not to do anything with it or the vintage IBM PC that it came with, but I have this sinking feeling it might not be there... I need to call them and remind them how much their son loves them and appreciates them. And perhaps in passing bring up that old computer in storage and see if they sound guilty or play it cool.
Congrats on the Model F and I'm glad you got the switches all settled in and working!
Thank you Oksy. I hope you find your F.
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I must inform you that I am typing this message on my "new" Model-F. My system is a Pentium 3 @ 1 Ghz running Win98 SE.
I have just tested the rollover effect.
This very keyboard has unlimited potential.
I can score easily over 30. I cannot press more keys to test for more.
So IBM Model F PC-AT has True N-Key Roll-Over !!!
The question is: If I get the PS2-USB adaptor will it affect this NKRO?
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Yes, but you'd have to go out of your way to make it fail.
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Yes, but you'd have to go out of your way to make it fail.
Please give us an example..
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USB is limited to six normal keys, and four modifiers. Since most people only have five fingers, USB's limitation isn't really that limiting.
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I must inform you that I am typing this message on my "new" Model-F. My system is a Pentium 3 @ 1 Ghz running Win98 SE.
You should upgrade to Windows XP on that machine. A 1ghz Pentium III can easily handle it. Pop in 512MB of RAM and you've got an OK computer there.
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tested the rollover effect.... score easily over 30.
Ripster will correct me if I'm mis-typing, but the n-key test is what's the small number, not what's the large number. If your model F always gets a minimum of 4, or if your F gets a minimum of 5, that's the true rollover number.
For example, my SPOS gives me 2 keys when I type slowly. My G86-8995HLUC gives me 5 no matter what the combination is.
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The F is NKRO (assuming PS/2).
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You should upgrade to Windows XP on that machine. A 1ghz Pentium III can easily handle it. Pop in 512MB of RAM and you've got an OK computer there.
There is no reason to upgrade. Win98 has been running for 8 years straight without format/ virus-free. There are some applications i want that require win9x/DOS and I do not want to use VMWare or DOS emulation, I am just using my old PC. It is running smoothly and from these days and on, it can handle my Model F too :-)
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There is no reason to upgrade. Win98 has been running for 8 years straight without format/ virus-free. There are some applications i want that require win9x/DOS and I do not want to use VMWare or DOS emulation, I am just using my old PC. It is runs smoothly and from these days and on it can handle my Model F too :-)
If you decide to use your 84-key Model F with a newer OS or laptop, the infamous "blue cube" ps/2 to USB adapters will make it work seamlessly with any modern PC. They work so well, you can even use your Model F at the boot level directory. Brandon at Clickykeyboards.com has them for sale and ripster has also posted alternate web sources.
I have so many "vintage" keyboards, I buy those blue cube adapters by the dozen!
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If you decide to use your 84-key Model F with a newer OS or laptop, the infamous "blue cube" ps/2 to USB adapters will make it work seamlessly with any modern PC. They work so well, you can even use your Model F at the boot level directory. Brandon at Clickykeyboards.com has them for sale and ripster has also posted alternate web sources.
I have so many "vintage" keyboards, I buy those blue cube adapters by the dozen!
I must have strange luck with PS/2->USB adapters... I have three different types, and they all work flawlessly.
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If you decide to use your 84-key Model F with a newer OS or laptop, the infamous "blue cube" ps/2 to USB adapters will make it work seamlessly with any modern PC. They work so well, you can even use your Model F at the boot level directory. Brandon at Clickykeyboards.com has them for sale and ripster has also posted alternate web sources.
I have so many "vintage" keyboards, I buy those blue cube adapters by the dozen!
You convinced me! I am ordering the adapters.
Maxlugar you must be an adepter*. Aren't you?
* A portmanteau word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau)made especially for you...
adapter + adept ==> adepter: an adept in adapters
Hope you like it. ;-)
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That's funny, I thought I linked a link to those a few pages back, and at a much cheaper price than Brandon sells them for...
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They work so well, you can even use your Model F at the boot level directory.
Huh? What's a boot level directory?
Do you mean, perhaps, that you can use the model F for interacting with the BIOS screen on startup? (That is: that blue screen where you press Del [or some other secret key on many brand name computers] at the beginning of bootup to get a screen where you can see how many CD-ROM drives and hard disks you have, and tell it to shave off some wait cycles for handling memory, and so on.)
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Slightly off-topic to the off-topic adapter issue, does anyone have a recommendation for an adapter Legacy Joystick DB15 to USB?
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Huh? What's a boot level directory?
Do you mean, perhaps, that you can use the model F for interacting with the BIOS screen on startup? (That is: that blue screen where you press Del [or some other secret key on many brand name computers] at the beginning of bootup to get a screen where you can see how many CD-ROM drives and hard disks you have, and tell it to shave off some wait cycles for handling memory, and so on.)
Given the amount of motherboards that use F11 or F12 to access the BIOS or boot menu, the F is eminently unsuitable for that task.
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Given the amount of motherboards that use F11 or F12 to access the BIOS or boot menu, the F is eminently unsuitable for that task.
Strange, I don't think I've ever seen a mother board that required F11 or F12 to enter the bios.
Most commonly, it seems to be F1, F2, or Del
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My Gigabyte ones use F12. F11 is very common for boot menus on a lot of OEM systems.
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When my son and I did mass Linux box builds as charity work we were taught to just run our fingers along the Fcn row at boot.
Became a badge of honor if you could guess the correct one just looking at a generic case.
Like a NKRO test? Heh, that's funny.
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Slightly off-topic to the off-topic adapter issue, does anyone have a recommendation for an adapter Legacy Joystick DB15 to USB?
RM-203 ROCKFIRE USB GAMEPORT CONVERTER USB JOYSTICK ADAPTER (http://cablegear.com/productdetails1.cfm?cats=626&sku=ijoy1)
Manhattan-Joystick-Adapter (http://sewelldirect.com/Manhattan-Joystick-Adapter-DB15-USB.asp)
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Became a badge of honor if you could guess the correct one just looking at a generic case.
Reminds me of my days in tech support ...
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Reminds me of my days in tech support ...
Indeed. Worked Tech support for a shop that could have anything through the door. Huge fun. honestly...
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Well, according to Unicomp, the Model M buckling springs last just about forever, so I would think that the Model F springs would last just about as long, if not longer.
Dia-M-onds are forever !
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Well, according to Unicomp, the Model M buckling springs last just about forever
Or for 25 million cycles, whichever comes sooner.
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You should upgrade to Windows XP on that machine. A 1ghz Pentium III can easily handle it. Pop in 512MB of RAM and you've got an OK computer there.
While it's true that XP can run on a Pentium III at 1 GHz, upgrading a computer is a big expense (and, of course, Windows XP is not actually currently available as a choice; Windows 7 won't upgrade from anything earlier than Vista; so her only choice is Vista) with a risk of breaking some programs. Why take such a risk when the computer already works?
If you buy a new application program, you've added the ability to do something; if you upgrade your operating system, your computer still has an operating system, but you've given Microsoft money, and the main result is that it runs slower.
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MS Windows suggested that someone upgrade their computer to something newer than Windows 2000?!