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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: CaptainKirk on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:04:37

Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: CaptainKirk on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:04:37: I use two old 17" CRT monitors (1024x768) for my PC (Linux with Xfce). I want to upgrade to LCD. Why?

1. I think if I get good ones, they will be better on my eyes.
2. I want more screen space.

The problem is that I am used to the old style non-wide screens, i.e. 4x3 ratio. New wide screens are of course 10:16 or some 9:16 I think. I want to keep two screens, so I think two wide ones will be TOO wide. I think taller is better also because then I can see more code. Most code is not very wide. :)

Samsung does make very nice 19" LCDs that are 4x3. They are expensive (at least $200 each) but they appear to have very good specs.

I thought also perhaps of taking wide screens and turning them sideways--I have seen photos of such setups. Then perhaps I could get two 21" LCDs and have both sideways--I definitely need the two monitors to match each other. Then I can open a window "full desktop" across both or drag between and not get lost off the top of one etc. So if I had two 21" that's a lot more space than 2 19". :)

The guy at the store said that if I want a 21" that has an adjustable stand (i.e. can be vertical instead of horizontal) then for just a bit more, I could get 23" from the same company. I think, though, that a 23" screen set vertically would be too tall.

So I'm not sure what to do. Any advice for a geek like me?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:18:35: Depends what you are looking for. If you want good response time or colour and image quality (both of which favour buying another CRT) or if you are only using them for coding a widescreen LCD should suffice. However I suggest having a look at the widescreen monitors before going for a 4:3 LCD or even worse 5:4 to see if you could get used to it. I never like vertical monitors but that's just my opinion.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:28:25: I wouldn't recommend a TN panel. IPS monitors are much better on your eyes because they can accurately represent colors without being too bright. TN panels are usually far too bright and washed out. Snoop around for a deal somewhere, see if you can't pick up a 22" IPS panel under $200. That's what I did, and I couldn't be happier.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:40:51: If someone really cared about good image quality they would surely totally overlook LCDs and find a decent CRT instead.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: CaptainKirk on Tue, 05 January 2010, 03:48:38: In Israel you can't purchase a new CRT--no one sells them.

I just program, that's right. I put my code in one monitor and the browser in another (I make web sites) or I put Firefox in one and Firebug in the other. I like two full screens--one wide one is more like 1.5 than 2.

Someone did give me recently a cheap 19" LCD that he wasn't using but it's such low quality I can't even use it. With brightness on ZERO I could look at it, but a careful comparison with my (at least 7-year-old) CRT shows that the LCD is not very clear. I open a shell and examine white letters on a black background and find that the CRT seems solid white but the (cheap) LCD has tiny black lines running through the white letters.

Now it's sitting in the corner, with my old PC.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 05 January 2010, 05:15:43: At my last job I had 2 20" Dell Trinitrons and a 22" LCD (also Dell). I always had to wear shorts to work because it was 5 degrees warmer in my cubicle than anywhere else in the office.

My eyes thank me that I ditched the CRTs and went to a strictly LCD setup (low refresh rates kill my eyes, and it costs enough already for my damn prescription).

Crappy LCDs can be bad, but crappy CRTs are worse.

I also got a 20" wide screen (16:10) a while back with a monitor arm. Having it in portrait mode (vertical) is awesome.
I also thought it would've been too tall, until I started using it.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 05 January 2010, 05:55:45: These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 05 January 2010, 06:02:52: I second HaaTa. So long as you don't need to view anything at non-native resolution, if you get a good LCD monitor, you won't miss your CRT except on a really cold day when the heat might do you some good.

I wouldn't call $200 for a monitor expensive if it's a good monitor. Samsung makes some excellent inexpensive LCD monitors. I've owned two Samsungs and currently have one 23" SyncMaster next to a 23" Apple Cinema Display. I like it almost as much as my Apple monitor and it cost a fraction of what that thing cost. The only reason why my Apple monitor is still my primary monitor is because the pixel size is bigger on that monitor so it's a little easier on my eyes when I'm on my 13th hour of staring at code.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: In Stereo! on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:02:19: Quote from: timw4mail;148089
These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825

IMO this + one of the old CRTs.

You'd be passing from 768px to 1050px, so the upgrade is noticable. The portrait mode is IMO usable only if you plan to tile more monitors or use this display as the secondary with a 30'' or the like.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:04:54: Quote from: timw4mail;148089
These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825

+1

I bought two of these, and recently trimmed it down to one. Best monitor I've ever owned (I'm not the kind of guy that spends $1000+ on a monitor, but I still care about quality)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Buckling_Summer on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:08:45: I own a Samsung SyncMaster 2493 HM and I am satisfied with it.
Maybe If I had 2 x 22'' with IPS panel it would be better !!!
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:12:11: That's a 24" SPVA panel, correct?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:26:02: I remember hearing somewhere that CRTs ionize dust particles and some of them end up shooting into your eyeballs at near-light velocities (or something like that), contributing to eye fatigue. After 25+ years of staring at CRTs, I went over to LCDs and I couldn't be happier.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:30:04: Quote from: Shawn Stanford;148105
I remember hearing somewhere that CRTs ionize dust particles and some of them end up shooting into your eyeballs at near-light velocities (or something like that), contributing to eye fatigue. After 25+ years of staring at CRTs, I went over to LCDs and I couldn't be happier.

No, that's just how they electrostatically attract dust. The eyestrain is due to the refresh rate, and the inherent flashing refresh of the CRT mechanism.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:30:57: Quote from: Buckling_Summer;148102
I own a Samsung SyncMaster 2493 HM and I am satisfied with it.
Maybe If I had 2 x 22'' with IPS panel it would be better !!!

Really, as long as it isn't a TN display, it's nice. IPS is the best all around, but VA is right in the middle.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 05 January 2010, 07:49:34: Quote from: timw4mail;148107
No, that's just how they electrostatically attract dust. The eyestrain is due to the refresh rate, and the inherent flashing refresh of the CRT mechanism.

I don't care what really happens. I'll take Shawn's story. That's what it feels like. ;)

My eyes wrote me a thank you note when I moved away from CRTs.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: CaptainKirk on Tue, 05 January 2010, 09:08:14: Quote from: hyperlinked;148116
My eyes wrote me a thank you note when I moved to a CRT.

I presume you meant LCD not CRT.

I have learned a lot now about TN and IPS. Seems TN is the cheapest, IPS the most expensive yet best, and the others (MVA, PVA, ASV) are in between. Here is more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

The one cheap LCD I have indeed hurt my eyes at first because it's so bright. But it's a very cheap machine. I'm sure it's a TN however.

I found this video showing IPS vs TN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7XNwbUYEM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7XNwbUYEM)

Pretty cool :)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 05 January 2010, 09:20:56: I stuck to a CRT for years as I wanted better color reproduction and no worries about resolution scaling. About 5 years ago I switched from a 21" CRT at work to a 19" LCD and never looked back. I love using LCDs now. Since I am a data analyst and not a graphic artist, using my PC became much more comfortable. For what I do, a quality LCD has good enough color reproduction. I am much more concerned about text clarity. That said, I like glossy monitors rather than matte (although I use matte at work). I usually work in low light (not completely dark, though) for less strain and reflections.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 05 January 2010, 11:21:12: I switched to the LCD camp over 6.5 years ago now, and like itlnstln, I never looked back. Fortunately I had a good bit of co-financing from my understanding parents, as back then a good 19" still cost an arm and a leg - 866€ in this case, and this already was down from 1000+. Yours truly probably is a little more sensitive to flicker than the average person, and a flicker-free monitor was a godsend. At my average viewing distances, a *VA / IPS panel was a must, too - TN feels like looking into a tunnel of sorts. (Aside from a panel swap in warranty, the monitor has held up rather well.)

An old rule of thumb is to get the best kind of monitor you can reasonably afford. It will usually last quite a while.

I would be wary in terms of cheapo monitors. About the worst-case combo you can encounter is TN panel + fixed backlight output + shoddy build / durability issues. You can never get really good contrast if the backlight is not adjustable, and gamma will usually be way off, too. If on a budget, I'd look for used high-quality Eizos or NECs, with a bit of luck they're not too worn-down (that mainly affects the CCFL backlight, which may turn rather yellowish over time, but it takes a lot of hours at high output for that to happen).
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 05 January 2010, 12:47:41: Quote from: ripster;148154
Zooey sez. Whatever you do, calibrate the sucker.

I was very disappointed in the SRGB standard that was supposed to end the need for calibration. I can put ten monitors side-by-side, set them up using SRGB, and all ten of them will look completely different. Fortunately, I have a pretty good eye for color, but having a calibrator is nice.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 05 January 2010, 12:49:20: Quote from: ripster;148154
Zooey sez. Whatever you do, calibrate the sucker.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7013&stc=1&d=1262716186)

Required for photographers and porn perfectionists (I've heard).

I never bought one of those (or the spider things)... But it's helpful to have friends into graphic design. They're all about the calibration tools, tellin' you that your eyes are lying to you and all that. My ex-gf once got mad at me because my old uncalibrated samsung monitor was "too yellow and blurry" for her to write an exam paper on.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Buckling_Summer on Tue, 05 January 2010, 12:50:41: the 2493HM is a TN based panel (http://www.futurelooks.com/samsung-syncmaster-2493hm-24-inch-lcd-monitor-review/4/)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 05 January 2010, 12:54:37: CRT has advantages, but too few to justify almost anyone buying them. LCD now offers 120hz, high resolutions, and fast response time... each nearly as good or better than CRTs. additionally, LCDs use less power, lower eye strain, and are smaller and lighter.

i dont care if you ARE in graphic design, i could never suggest a CRT.

calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design. people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it? a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 05 January 2010, 12:58:38: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148167
calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design. people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it? a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.

Businesses regularly patent colors for their logos (we do, for sure, our logo is very specific shade of red and our shelf tags a very specific shade of yellow), so I would imagine design teams want to make sure they are looking at exact colors when designing signage, tags, etc. so that they create the best possible visuals when displaying their company's logo.

Long story short, most people may not be able to describe what they see, but enough know when something looks "off."
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 05 January 2010, 16:04:14: mechanical keyboards are nice and all, but i dont see the application with computers. people have these expensive keyboards that are buckling spring and capacitive and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the keyboard they use to type the content, why worry so much about it? a decent rubber dome should be plenty.

Ignorance of motivation isn't a very wise reason to dismiss others' needs.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 05 January 2010, 16:14:19: I don't even try to "evangelize" quality keyboards. If someone wants to check mine out, that's cool, but I don't try to convince people that one keyboard is better than another. It's all a matter of personal taste. For example, there are a lot of speed-typists that prefer scissor switches since the travel is shorter. I like Cherry browns, because the activation force is light, they're springy and they're tactile.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: exia on Tue, 05 January 2010, 18:26:15: Quote from: CaptainKirk;148072
I use two old 17" CRT monitors (1024x768) for my PC (Linux with Xfce). I want to upgrade to LCD. Why?

1. I think if I get good ones, they will be better on my eyes.
2. I want more screen space.

The problem is that I am used to the old style non-wide screens, i.e. 4x3 ratio. New wide screens are of course 10:16 or some 9:16 I think. I want to keep two screens, so I think two wide ones will be TOO wide. I think taller is better also because then I can see more code. Most code is not very wide. :)

Samsung does make very nice 19" LCDs that are 4x3. They are expensive (at least $200 each) but they appear to have very good specs.

I thought also perhaps of taking wide screens and turning them sideways--I have seen photos of such setups. Then perhaps I could get two 21" LCDs and have both sideways--I definitely need the two monitors to match each other. Then I can open a window "full desktop" across both or drag between and not get lost off the top of one etc. So if I had two 21" that's a lot more space than 2 19". :)

The guy at the store said that if I want a 21" that has an adjustable stand (i.e. can be vertical instead of horizontal) then for just a bit more, I could get 23" from the same company. I think, though, that a 23" screen set vertically would be too tall.

So I'm not sure what to do. Any advice for a geek like me?

you have suffered long enough with CRT screens

if you do get two screens to turn sideways make sure that they are the (more expensive) IPS panels. Cheap TN panels have such poor viewing angles that they look terrible when viewed sideways.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: InSanCen on Tue, 05 January 2010, 18:38:23: Here goes.

As someone who used professional CRT's for years (2x 22" Lacie Electron Blue's, £1500 each when new), and now uses LCD's.

Unless you need amazing colour reproduction, then any SIPS/PVA panel will be fine. There are good TN's out there, but for the money there are better panels. I too hated anything other than 4:3, but have grown used to 16:10.

Just bite the bullet, you won't regret it.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 05 January 2010, 18:47:47: Quote from: ricercar;148226
mechanical keyboards are nice and all, but i dont see the application with computers. people have these expensive keyboards that are buckling spring and capacitive and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the keyboard they use to type the content, why worry so much about it? a decent rubber dome should be plenty.

Ignorance of motivation isn't a very wise reason to dismiss others' needs.

i dont think that is at all like what i was saying

i wasnt talking about a company making something for a niche market, i was talking about designing something for the masses in a realistic scenario

designing a logo with your ultimate monitor so everyone else can view it on their crappy TN LCDs may not only be unnecessary, but it could be flat out wrong. it is often practice to avoid stuff that might look like crap on a junk monitor... lots of gray levels dither noticeably on a junk monitor, for instance.

i just think the positives of LCD generally outweigh the negatives. my post did not say NO ONE SHOULD USE CRT... EVER! (well, kind of) i was just saying i do not understand the appeal.

and the color patenting thing, with all my ignorance i am sure, is one of the things i lump in with other ridiculous patents. it is a color. you should not be able to patent properties of light. a paint mixture, sure. but a color is not a PRODUCT... logo design is one thing, but even it is often taken too far.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 05 January 2010, 19:37:35: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148279
designing a logo with your ultimate monitor so everyone else can view it on their crappy TN LCDs may not only be unnecessary, but it could be flat out wrong. it is often practice to avoid stuff that might look like crap on a junk monitor... lots of gray levels dither noticeably on a junk monitor, for instance....

and the color patenting thing, with all my ignorance i am sure, is one of the things i lump in with other ridiculous patents. it is a color. you should not be able to patent properties of light. a paint mixture, sure. but a color is not a PRODUCT... logo design is one thing, but even it is often taken too far.

I don't think itlnstln was saying that getting the colors perfect was needed to enforce some company's claim to be the inventor of a color scheme. I believe what he was referring to was how anal companies get with exact reproduction of their company logo and what it appears on or near so when you're design flexibility is completely killed by specifications of color choice, you need to know that what you're looking at is what will end up printed.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 05 January 2010, 19:43:33: To be effective in some countries, registration of a trademark requires a specified color for each element.

And the color is not being copyrighted, it's the use of a color in a specific deployment that can be trademarked. Registering a trademark is just like a patent and a copyright. You're not claiming ownership of the individual elements. You're claiming to own a specific deployment of the elements described in your trademarked image, patented invention, or copyrighted text.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 05 January 2010, 19:49:49: ok, well both of those make more sense
though i do feel like i have heard of companies getting mad over use of their colors
then again, lots of times patents are abused
maybe im just bitter from all the patent lawsuits in technology i read about lately
amd is getting sued over a patent on mosfet placement (or something to that effect)

but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Tue, 05 January 2010, 20:27:38: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148167
CRT has advantages, but too few to justify almost anyone buying them. LCD now offers 120hz, high resolutions, and fast response time... each nearly as good or better than CRTs. additionally, LCDs use less power, lower eye strain, and are smaller and lighter.

i dont care if you ARE in graphic design, i could never suggest a CRT.

calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design. people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it? a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.

I guess this is true, I am biased because I play a lot of multiplayer games online. At any semi-competitive level CRT is preferred due to input delay and refresh rate. Also the price is really nice considering every aspect of CRT is superior if you get a decent one. The only drawback being the huge size and the factor of wear and tear. I never get eyestrain with CRTs as I only use them at 120hz and I have an LCD for desktop use.

If you just want clear text then I guess you don't have to discriminate as much when choosing an LCD. Just find an aspect ratio you like at a price you like.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 05 January 2010, 20:48:30: Quote from: Shuki;148304
I guess this is true, I am biased because I play a lot of multiplayer games online. At any semi-competitive level CRT is preferred due to input delay and refresh rate. Also the price is really nice considering every aspect of CRT is superior if you get a decent one. The only drawback being the huge size and the factor of wear and tear. I never get eyestrain with CRTs as I only use them at 120hz and I have an LCD for desktop use.

If you just want clear text then I guess you don't have to discriminate as much when choosing an LCD. Just find an aspect ratio you like at a price you like.

I use CRT's every day. My best one is one I just got from 2002. It's a 19" and can handle 100Hz at 1152x864 resolution. It's got much better color quality than and LCD I've seen and can be looked at from any angle without any color distortion.

Color distortion is probably the thing I hate about LCD's. I work with new ones at my job, but what's always gotten on my nerves is the fact that if I look from above or below my average position, all the colors go weird. This happens on every computer LCD I've used.

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 05 January 2010, 20:53:28: Quote from: Buckling_Summer;148164
the 2493HM is a TN based panel (http://www.futurelooks.com/samsung-syncmaster-2493hm-24-inch-lcd-monitor-review/4/)

Oh yeah... I think that was the other reason why I continued to use my Apple Cinema Display as my primary monitor...

so... Samsungs are a pretty decent backup monitor... I guess I was just trying to not sound like an Apple fanboy.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Tue, 05 January 2010, 21:09:47: Quote from: microsoft windows;148313
I use CRT's every day. My best one is one I just got from 2002. It's a 19" and can handle 100Hz at 1152x864 resolution. It's got much better color quality than and LCD I've seen and can be looked at from any angle without any color distortion.

Color distortion is probably the thing I hate about LCD's. I work with new ones at my job, but what's always gotten on my nerves is the fact that if I look from above or below my average position, all the colors go weird. This happens on every computer LCD I've used.

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.

Well I have my LCD set up pretty well I would say but the colours are nowhere near as good as my CRT. I would say my CRT is superior in every way except for size.. far better in fact. However my CRT cost 10 pounds and my LCD 200 pounds :S
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 05 January 2010, 21:23:13: Quote from: microsoft windows;148313

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.

I had a 14" monitor of a similar age (can't remember the brand) but the colour was amazing on it. When I first went to pick it up, I ripped the base right off of it (the rubber stoppers had glued themselves to the table it'd been there so long).

Also for funs sake CRTs are more fun to destroy...and sometimes fail spectacularly.
Once I had a monitor (17") that went into an infinite loop of changing resolutions. Within seconds smoke filled the room. I think the screen was flashing between white and black as well, but I was too busy running to unplug the thing.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: InSanCen on Wed, 06 January 2010, 01:47:14: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148296
but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?

Let's see if GH can keep this one on track. Most times when this particular debate is done, apples are compared to oranges and pears, but there is a refreshing lack of hormonal fanboys on here.

Compare my old Lacie 22" monitors to my current home monitor. The Lacie's are leagues ahead. Compare them to standard SIPS panels, they are still ahead. Compared to my friends 24" Dell Ultrasharp and 24" BenQ (Both great monitors), and they are ahead again.

If however you compare them to another set of Lacie LCD's, aimed at professionals who work in an environment that needs accuracy with colour, then it's not really clear who's ahead. I haven't seen a difference myself, and would be happy to work with the newer LCD's, but I never had the opportunity to compare back to back.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: CaptainKirk on Wed, 06 January 2010, 03:21:44: OK, it seems that almost everyone agrees that LCDs are indeed better, and I have learned that IPN is what I should be looking for (and that it's worth the higher price). The question left is what size. I want to have two monitors, and I'm guessing that two 21" standing up will work, but I'm not sure. Obviously, it's all about personal preference but someone might be able to say "a 23" monitor mounted vertically is really very tall and I wouldn't recommend it."

I am trying to figure out what size to buy. Perhaps 22" would be doable.

PS: I have a friend who's buying four cheap 23" LCDs--he plans to mount them in a rack--two on the desk and two above--so he can day trade. Aside from the day trading foolishness, I think four 23" monitors is crazy--no one can manage that much space effectively. IMO.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Wed, 06 January 2010, 03:56:06: Just make sure to look at one in upright position before buying. Most LCDs have a very limited viewing angle from what's normally the bottom side.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 06 January 2010, 05:59:13: I recommended the cheapest (lowest cost) IPS display available, the Dell 2209WA: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=320-7825&cs=04&c=us&l=en

Definitely worth the $100 premium over my other two displays.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: CaptainKirk on Wed, 06 January 2010, 06:43:36: I poked around there at Dell and found a 20.1" IPS with 3x4 ratio: http://www1.euro.dell.com/il/en/home/monitor/monitor_2007fp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor_2007fp&s=dhs&cs=ildhs1

Only drawback is that it's more than the 22"! Go figure. Perhaps less demand for 3x4...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 07:54:14: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148296
ok, well both of those make more sense
though i do feel like i have heard of companies getting mad over use of their colors
then again, lots of times patents are abused
maybe im just bitter from all the patent lawsuits in technology i read about lately
amd is getting sued over a patent on mosfet placement (or something to that effect)

but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?

Check it (http://www.heb.com/welcome/index.jsp). The color red used in our logo is trademarked (see ricercar's explanation) for protection purposes. I actually got in trouble for using a modified version of the logo we use in Mexico (because it's much cooler (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7039&stc=1&d=1262785966)) as the logo in my e-mail signature. The reasons were two-fold: first, it didn't have the US trademarked "racetrack," and it was the wrong color. The guy explained how they have to protect it constantly, and my having the wrong logo could jeopordize litigation should it arise. He did admit that it was a better logo, though.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 09:48:10: When my sister and I were young and we would visit family in Texas before we moved here, we used to call it "itchy butt" (H-E-Butt said quickly). Who knew I would be working for them?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 09:59:09: This chairman?

(http://www.linux-france.org/prj/jargonf/fig/ROFLMAO.jpg)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 06 January 2010, 10:22:56: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;148368
Just make sure to look at one in upright position before buying. Most LCDs have a very limited viewing angle from what's normally the bottom side.
Which is precisely why he's looking for something with a S-IPS panel now. PVA would also work; historically color stability over viewing angle was better with IPS but there was this "glitter" effect, and contrast wasn't quite as high (S-IPS solved that one). I have been quite satisfied with my PVA equipped Samsung, and at my viewing distances (frequently only about 20 cm) I would definitely notice if viewing angles weren't up to par.
Quote from: CaptainKirk;148377
I poked around there at Dell and found a 20.1" IPS with 3x4 ratio: http://www1.euro.dell.com/il/en/home/monitor/monitor_2007fp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor_2007fp&s=dhs&cs=ildhs1

Only drawback is that it's more than the 22"! Go figure. Perhaps less demand for 3x4...
Seems to be a mass market thing indeed. That being said, the 2007FP still is rather inexpensive for a 20.1" UXGA.

One accessory that I can definitely recommend is a monitor arm. Gives you heaps of flexibility and desk space. Like o2dazone, I use an Ergotron LX (also comes in a dual monitor version these days, though last time I checked this was a little spendy).
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 10:28:12: I have 2 1908FPs, and they are great. I would like something with an LED backlight in the future, but for "cheap" flat panels, I couldn't ask for much more. They have decent (for what I do, anyway) color reproduction, and are quite sharp. If you are doing prgramming, writing, etc., I don't thonk you could go wrong with those. At home, I have a 22" 16x10 Acer that's pretty nice, too, but I don't think they make it anymore.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 06 January 2010, 10:28:53: Quote from: keyb_gr;148462
Seems to be a mass market thing indeed. That being said, the 2007FP still is rather inexpensive for a 20.1" UXGA.

The 2209WA is a better monitor, though, in terms of contrast and response time.

Not to mention, you don't know if you'll get an VA or IPS panel with the 2007FP
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 06 January 2010, 11:26:59: Quote from: timw4mail;148466
The 2209WA is a better monitor, though, in terms of contrast and response time.

Not to mention, you don't know if you'll get an VA or IPS panel with the 2007FP

I noticed the two versions for the 2007FP, too. It would be a good monitor either way, but not first choice for the picky customer who's settled on a particular panel type.

itlnstln's 1908FPs seem to be using a TN panel.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 11:30:44: Quote from: keyb_gr;148480
itlnstln's 1908FPs seem to be using a TN panel.

True that. Looks like a no go. It's pretty good for a TN, though. I have seen much worse. Since they're on my work computer, I didn't pay for them, nor did I get a choice.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 06 January 2010, 11:55:10: (Last checked 2004, so this may have changed)

Dell Computer and Apple are the only two tier-1 OEM LCD customers. This means every top-bin (highest quality) LCD made by Samsung and Sharp went to Apple or Dell displays (or Samsung or Sharp labeled displays). Everyone else gets bin 2 or worse. And in 2004, there weren't many other companies making OEM LCDs. I can't think of one.

I'm almost convinced Hanns G (from Germany) has secured a tier-2 position in record time. Their displays are surprisingly high quality for a 'new' company, from what I've seen personally.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 12:07:48: I am fortunate. I have never had a stuck or dead pixel on any LCD monitor I have used. I used my mom's PC, and she had a stuck pixel, but it massaged out pretty easily.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 06 January 2010, 13:53:36: Quote from: CaptainKirk;148377
I poked around there at Dell and found a 20.1" IPS with 3x4 ratio: http://www1.euro.dell.com/il/en/home/monitor/monitor_2007fp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor_2007fp&s=dhs&cs=ildhs1

Only drawback is that it's more than the 22"! Go figure. Perhaps less demand for 3x4...

Don't get a Dell monitor. Some of the computers at my workplace use Dell LCD's and they're failing left and right.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 13:58:40: I've had experience with pretty much all of Dell's flatpanel monitor lines, and they're some of the best monitors around. They also tend to win a lot of awards and recommendations for their screens. Where do you work? Are they in an environment where they are subjected to a lot of abuse?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 06 January 2010, 14:32:42: Quote from: ripster;148491
As a Geekhack service I will begin posting Monitor Checking tools.

First up. A stuck pixel test.
Show Image
(http://media.bigoo.ws/content/background/space/space_154.gif)

See any?

I use CRT's so I don't have to worry about any of that!
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 06 January 2010, 14:35:43: It's just that my workplace bought many fleets of Dell computers a few years ago. On over 100 machines, the motherboards failed soon after the warrantee expired. The laptops were poorly designed and overheated. And the LCD's gotten from Dell are failing now, just about 3 1/2 years after we bought them. They look great at first, but Dell will knowingly sell you faulty hardware. I've found that companies like Samsung, Toshiba, and Hewlett-Packard are much better.

With the Dell keyboards, they are some of the lowest quality rubber domes on the market. After a year or two, the keys stick and they feel horribly. I wouldn't recommend using one.

I have and use Dell computers, but only the ones that survived the test of time and didn't have faulty motherboards or poor fan systems. They did design some very high quality laptops. But make sure that when you buy something from them, make sure it's been out for a few years and has good reviews.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 14:45:40: Again, where are these machines used? I have Dell monitors that have been in constant regular use since 2002 and 2003. Their 24, 27 and 30 inch screens are probably the best value for money on the market at the moment. If they die after 3 or 4 years, that's fair enough as far as Im concerned. I'm not going to spend more money for a worse product so that it can last an extra year or two... I'm not that miserly.

When people say 'x' makes bad things, I'm always cynical. Dell doesn't even make the monitors. Pretty much all the monitors around come from two or three factories, irrespective of what brand ends up on them in the end. It's like when people lambasted Dell over the exploding battery thing, but failed to note that Sony, Apple and many others had the same issue because the batteries came form one source.

Laptops are more at the mercy of the whims of manufacturers because they are all proprietary designs, but the odds are the dead screens probably showed up in other laptops made by other companies. Welcome to Globalization.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 06 January 2010, 15:53:19: I would guess the monitors affected are cheap BenQ OEMs like these (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8108). Don't they also have those vertically arranged menus? Totally unintuitive.

There also were some problems with dead mo/bo electrolytics on Optiplex GX270 (I think) Pentium 4 systems.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 06 January 2010, 16:18:45: We had a whole fleet of the 270's at work, and about 40 280's, which also had faulty motherboards. We had to spend lots of money on replacing motherboards Dell knew were faulty and didn't cover.

Google the Dell Inspiron 1100 too. We had some of those at work and they're some of the lowest-quality laptops ever. They overheat and fall apart.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 16:35:47: Oooh... That's nice. Heading to PE to check that out now.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 16:40:42: Ripster, have you made anything using Dayton drivers? I have always been tempted to try one of their DIY projects, but I really haven't seen much on Dayton's products.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 06 January 2010, 16:45:27: That's what I would have figured, but the overall design has plenty to do eith the sound, so it's kinda hard to tell sometimes if it's the drivers or the enclosure. How is that sub?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 06 January 2010, 16:49:36: Monitors are lizards.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/images/2004/09/16/bosc_monitor_300x300.jpg)

Displays and speakers are equipment.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 06 January 2010, 17:04:19: Quote from: ripster;148611
When I see the post title I keep thinking I need to build this.
Show Image
(http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/blackBox/header.jpg)
Passive loudspeakers are so yesterday. All those pesky big coils and electrolytics and other highly non-ideal stuff.
Quote from: microsoft windows;148601
Google the Dell Inspiron 1100 too. We had some of those at work and they're some of the lowest-quality laptops ever. They overheat and fall apart.
I would never buy a low-end Inspiron for work, quite honestly. Latitudes exist for a reason. At least I'd stick to the Inspirons related to them.

I had a 1999 Latitude CPt C years ago and was fairly happy with it. All I had to do was tighten a screw or two once in a while. Sadly it went up in smoke (whoever wrote the instructions claiming to first apply power to the docking station and then insert the notebook clearly FAILed).
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 06 January 2010, 17:57:19: I want new monitors too. But, I survive with the good old CTR's. CRT's can be better than LCD's. If space is no issue and you have the proper hardware/software configuration, CRT's are the best kind of monitor in my opinion.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 18:00:59: Any reasons, other than the fact that they are plentiful in skips?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 06 January 2010, 19:15:45: wow, lots of posts.

color patents are still stupid to me, just now in different ways.

i think a lot of people who say LCD sucks have not used high-end LCDs, or high-end LCDs produced recently. LCD, unlike CRT, is still changing a lot. not talking about here specifically, but usually when i have this discussion, the LCD haters are talking about the newest offering from Acer or the screen on their laptops.

likewise i am sure the CRT haters might be the same way, including myself.

my personal story is going from a $250ish Samsung CRT that did 1600x1200 at 75 or 85hz to a $800 (super deal at the time) dell ultrasharp 2405fpw. better overall to me, by far. thanks to HDCP and the PS3, i had to sell it, and its replacement is NOT as good other than modern amenities like scaling options and auto brightness (not dynamic contrast) (i know it still isnt preferred by the elitists, im sure, but maybe it should be. it looks better when the sun is shining in the room. when it gets dark, it dims back down to a normal level. DUH).

i feel like even if someone could prove to me that CRT still reigns supreme in image quality, i just dont know if i could ever give up thin, low-power, quiet (no buzz, ever), and low eye-strain (no matter how high your refresh rate is)... especially if only advantage is better colors that only a calibration device can detect and a refresh rate and input speed that only a pro gaymer can claim to detect.

and then theres the whole production and cost effectiveness thing.
i plan on my next monitor being a new, 30", 2560x1600 IPS panel for around $1200. i would think that is kind of hard for CRT to beat.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 19:28:58: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148666

i think a lot of people who say LCD sucks have not used high-end LCDs, or high-end LCDs produced recently. LCD, unlike CRT, is still changing a lot. not talking about here specifically, but usually when i have this discussion, the LCD haters are talking about the newest offering from Acer or the screen on their laptops.

QFT. If memory serves me correct, a lot of the colour accuracy issues where due to poor backlighting on early monitors. Of course, as LED backlighting, and soon OLED screens become more common, the gap will narrow.

There are other issues of course, but hey, LCDs don't weight a tonne, take up a desk, and most importantly, don't burn my eyes out like CRTs do.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 06 January 2010, 19:34:14: Quote from: kishy;148667
What is this nonsense about low power? It's been proven flat panel monitors and TVs are more power-hungry than their CRT equivalents, inch-for-inch.

Google it.

LCDs are superior in many ways but I have yet to see one, in TV or monitor form, reputable brand or not which can match the colour accuracy (speaking from first impression looking at the screen, not with any sophisticated measuring tools) and warmth of a CRT.
i tried googling, couldnt find what you were talking about.
unless by flat panel you mean plasma
i even started looking up individual product power consumption rating before i wondered why. pretty sure it generally goes like LCD < CRT <= Plasma, with some exceptions and omissions at certain sizes (namely, where are all the 60" HD CRTs)

color warmth is a preference and settings
but if you prefer the color i wont say you cannot
looking at something like a 27" new imac display (only because it has a higher pixel density than the normal 30" 2560x____ IPS panels) should be hard to hate
but maybe it is just me

and everyone keeps saying that but i highly doubt 3d will catch on until it can be done without glasses
but if it were as good and widespread as they made it sound i would for sure wear the dumb glasses

EDIT one more thing i forgot to mention
geometry
i must have spent over 100hrs trying to get the geometry on my TVs and monitors absolutely perfect. never happened. lcd pretty much has that covered, and no worrying about unshielded speakers or frequency of degaussing.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 19:46:56: I tried calibrating my monitor with the software that came with it... Usually doing so caused the monitor to show everything in an exaggerated shade of blue... Went back to defaults. Funny you should mention it, I thought that the contrast was too high when I got it first, I got used to it though.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 06 January 2010, 19:53:42: i do the contrast and brightness to suggested levels, get it set to 6500k or whatever is right, and pretty much leave it alone.
if the calibration process was cheaper, id be all over it.
because trying to do it myself with my CRT didnt end well. like i said above, i kind of gave up after geometry and service menus and circuit city repairmen telling me "well it looks like a circle to me..."
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Wed, 06 January 2010, 21:59:17: Quote from: ripster;148684
Of course there ALWAYS will be some CRT holdouts. My brother in law's Sony Trinitron TV 150lb (or whatever) monster does have a nice picture and I couldn't convince him to get a new TV.

But either way, CRT or LCD, TV or PC monitor, if it is not calibrated you have no idea what you are missing. Looking at other people's TV setups usually drives me nuts because they leave it on factory showroom settings - super high brightness, cartoon contrast, and off tint.

Well he's a smart man, I have a 32" Sony CRT downstairs and the quality is superb. It's so much sharper than any high def LCD I have seen and I know people who have spent 1000's of pounds on these things. Plus it would take 5 hench burglars to steal it.

My asus LCD is so bright with factory settings it gives me eye cancer. First thing I did was calibrate it. Default was 90 brightness 80 contrast, I lowered it to 70 brightness and 60 contrast. They don't take much care over default settings.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 06 January 2010, 22:14:30: if a 32" crt (TV? non-HD!?) is sharper than "any high def LCD [you've] ever seen" you must have not seen the good stuff... or maybe it was the classic broadcast-480p-stretched-to-full.
LCD is fixed, discrete pixels. it is hard to get sharper than that by beaming electrons through glass.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 08:00:46: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148719
if a 32" crt (TV? non-HD!?) is sharper than "any high def LCD [you've] ever seen" you must have not seen the good stuff... or maybe it was the classic broadcast-480p-stretched-to-full.
LCD is fixed, discrete pixels. it is hard to get sharper than that by beaming electrons through glass.

CRT, IMO, is still the best way to watch TV (HD, of course). There is no scaling in the digital sense (as long as the tube supports the resolution), better contrast, and even illumination (although this is almost not a plus anymore with LED backlights).

The problem with LCD, Plasma, DLP, etc. for TV viewing is the fixed pixels. Unless you are watching in the native resolution of the TV, the picture has to be scaled, thus introducing artifacts into the picture. That's one problem with 1080p TVs. Other than Blu-Ray and video rips, there is hardly any content for it, so just about everything has to be scaled. CRTs, in general, don't have this problem. As long as the convergence is set properly, it will be just as sharp as any digital technology. The problem with CRTs is that it's hard to get a large format. CRT RPTVs are ginormous and heavy, and FPs are hard to come by and expensive. If I ever hit the lottery, though, my future home theater will have a CRT FP.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 09:59:43: Quote from: ripster;148813
CRTs are dead.

Pretty much. FPs are still available for the high end crowd. The digital technologies are so much cheaper these days, and scaling, contrast, backlighting, etc. are getting so much better, that the gaps are closing quickly. Digital will always win in the WAF and power consumption (for the most part) departments, too. I am thinking about a new PJ for the theater. The GF keeps begging me to put a TV in the main living room, so this might be the way to get me to do it by moving the TV in the theater to the living room. We'll see.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 07 January 2010, 10:22:53: Quote from: ripster;148821
Smell-O-Vision...

Would kill all TV crime series in an instant. Not going to happen.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 10:24:30: The only thing Smell-O-Vision would be good for is the Food Network.

... and maybe pr0n.

... maybe.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 07 January 2010, 11:08:55: What's this thing about power consumption? My 19" PVA LCD draws 35 W max, and at my normal brightness it's about 20. (Another hint that the backlight is adjustable.) The old 19" CRT clunker I had before (with a smaller viewing area and worse picture) took like 100 W. CRTs scale very badly when it comes to higher resolutions and refresh rates, as coil losses increase in a nonlinear (square law, IIRC) fashion.

Even a typical 24" won't need more than maybe 50 W, 80 max, and you can't even buy such a monitor as a CRT.

My parents have a 42" Panasonic plasma. The picture is great, power consumption middle of the road (averaging like 200-something W), but the RF radiation levels aren't funny. Several meters away I still hear more of it on the MW and lower shortwave ranges than I like. Our neighbors must have something that's yet worse though, a nice wideband QRM source.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 07 January 2010, 11:32:18: Dell's current 30" monitor, which is considered one of the best 30" ones around consumes something like 150-200W, which is almost as much as a PC I had some years ago with Pentium 4 and a GeForce 4.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Shuki on Thu, 07 January 2010, 11:55:04: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148719
if a 32" crt (TV? non-HD!?) is sharper than "any high def LCD [you've] ever seen" you must have not seen the good stuff... or maybe it was the classic broadcast-480p-stretched-to-full.
LCD is fixed, discrete pixels. it is hard to get sharper than that by beaming electrons through glass.

I don't know why I said sharper actually, what I meant it just looked better and of course did look sharper when 480p was scaled to it's native res.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 14:26:54: Dell is about to release a new "pro" monitor. It looks pretty intteresting; it's 16:10, though. Check it (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/dell-goes-pro-with-27-inch-ultrasharp-u2711-wqhd-lcd-monitor-ha/).
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:07:43: Quote from: itlnstln;148894
Dell is about to release a new "pro" monitor. It looks pretty intteresting; it's 16:10, though. Check it (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/dell-goes-pro-with-27-inch-ultrasharp-u2711-wqhd-lcd-monitor-ha/).

Wow... I don't think I've ever had the urge to spend that much on a monitor before, but 110% color gamut... If the response time is low, that would make one insane gaming monitor.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:16:01: I like the resolution, too. I could use only one of those and still have more real estate than my 2 1280x1024 monitors.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:28:14: Quote from: kishy;148667
What is this nonsense about low power? It's been proven flat panel monitors and TVs are more power-hungry than their CRT equivalents, inch-for-inch.

Google it.

LCDs are superior in many ways but I have yet to see one, in TV or monitor form, reputable brand or not which can match the colour accuracy (speaking from first impression looking at the screen, not with any sophisticated measuring tools) and warmth of a CRT.

I very much agree with this statement. That pretty much sums up my opinion.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:36:38: Can someone give me some proper sources for this claim that LCD is less power efficient than CRT?
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:48:59: Quote from: ch_123;148911
Can someone give me some proper sources for this claim that LCD is less power efficient than CRT?

Kishy made a mistake. This only applies to Plasmas and probably not new ones. Plasma is pretty much a dead technology, too. Pretty much all manufacturers are focusing on LCDs. With LED backlights, they pretty much beat Plasmas in all categories with much less power consumption. LED backlighting might even make OLED a nonstarter (if it even started to begin with). Some of the LED backlit TVs at the CES this year are about as thin as the OLEDs. The may not have the color depth, refresh rate, etc., but consumers just want thin.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 07 January 2010, 15:58:15: I found a similar claim to Kishy's in Wikipedia with a "Citation Needed" stamp beside it. Even if it was true, it sounds like a marketing play on numbers... I have an upper-midrange 20" 4:3 Samsung monitor whose manufacturer spec for power consumption is 36W. I looked up some top of the line 20" CRT monitors made a year or two before my monitor was made, and they all consumed upwards of 110-120W. Maybe it was true a long time ago, but I really doubt it's applicable nowadays, especially with the LED backlighting we have.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 07 January 2010, 16:02:08: Plasma needed quite a bit of power to activate the plasma, similar to CRT. The upside, though, was a little better reponse time, better contrast, and even lighting. Those have all been pretty much matched, or eclipsed, by LCDs. Looking at all these articles on CES lately has me pinin' for a new TV.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 07 January 2010, 16:47:06: Using TV as a source of info? Uh oh...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 07 January 2010, 19:09:01: plasma is awesome, a shame it is dying. it is only dying because of popularity. if you dont mind being worried about burn-in, which still exists but is rare, plasma beats LCD in so many ways... i would get a plasma if burn in didnt scare me so much.

and the dell monitor... GREAT! the same res as on the 30"ers i was looking at, in 27" (which i feel like i might PREFER... now that im getting a dedicated TV, i dont need a monitor that is THAT big up close, might be too hard to see the "big picture" per se...)

and the price sounds good too. hopefully it applies to the typical dell standard of always being on 'sale'.

EDIT and you guys are crazy. 2560x1440 is 16:9, just like the apple. this is probably pretty similar to the apple (as in, same panel). but you dont have to waste an extra $600 to get a subpar computer on the back.

nice to read Dell still includes color calibration reports in the box...
this might very well be something i order this month! EDIT well it isnt even out yet
but i will probably be a first-week buyer

HOLY CRAP, AND it has composite/component!? just like my late 2405!
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 08 January 2010, 07:21:01: Quote from: AndrewZorn;148991
plasma is awesome, a shame it is dying. it is only dying because of popularity. if you dont mind being worried about burn-in, which still exists but is rare, plasma beats LCD in so many ways... i would get a plasma if burn in didnt scare me so much.

and the dell monitor... GREAT! the same res as on the 30"ers i was looking at, in 27" (which i feel like i might PREFER... now that im getting a dedicated TV, i dont need a monitor that is THAT big up close, might be too hard to see the "big picture" per se...)

and the price sounds good too. hopefully it applies to the typical dell standard of always being on 'sale'.

EDIT and you guys are crazy. 2560x1440 is 16:9, just like the apple. this is probably pretty similar to the apple (as in, same panel). but you dont have to waste an extra $600 to get a subpar computer on the back.

nice to read Dell still includes color calibration reports in the box...
this might very well be something i order this month! EDIT well it isnt even out yet
but i will probably be a first-week buyer

HOLY CRAP, AND it has composite/component!? just like my late 2405!

Umm...plasma burn-in is basically the same thing as color CRT burn-in...possible, but usually requires a huge amount of hours of the same image on screen.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 08 January 2010, 09:12:30: Got the three monitor setup working. There was another PC like mine not being used, so I took the video card, and added it to my rig. I plugged in a monitor, and I was ready to go. I can still add a fourth, too, but I am not sure what I would do with it. I'll probably end up connecting one anyway. I'm thinking of putting one above my main monitor for displaying server status, stock prices, CNN, etc.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 08 January 2010, 15:33:50: Quote from: timw4mail;149098
Umm...plasma burn-in is basically the same thing as color CRT burn-in...possible, but usually requires a huge amount of hours of the same image on screen.

tell that to the guys at AVSforum, who have spent thousands on high end plasmas, to get burn in just from watching 4:3 content for a day.
id like to believe it doesnt exist, but long-time and knowledgeable owners saying it DID happen (despite what they wanted to believe too) is a problem.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 09 January 2010, 11:31:01: I have multiple monitors dedicated to a variety of purposes. However, they all have computers with them.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: D-EJ915 on Sat, 09 January 2010, 13:08:56: Quote from: itlnstln;148894
Dell is about to release a new "pro" monitor. It looks pretty intteresting; it's 16:10, though. Check it (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/dell-goes-pro-with-27-inch-ultrasharp-u2711-wqhd-lcd-monitor-ha/).
looks like the same panel as in the new imac.
Title: tasty
Post by: williamjoseph on Tue, 12 January 2010, 16:18:26: i use 2x of these (http://www.legendmicro.com/store/6108_ProductInfo.lmsp). $320ish will get you two of these. i love referbished and recertified equipment. i myself went from a vintage 1996 19"crt to these and my eyes were pleased. aaaahhhhh 20,000:1 contrast and 2 ms responce. mmmmm, tasty.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 12 January 2010, 17:53:46: FWIW you can get a ton of 4:3 and 5:4 screens on geeks.com...not sure why I didn't mention this before but they have a huge variety of refurb monitors that go through them
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 13 January 2010, 09:58:55: Quote from: williamjoseph;150381
i use 2x of these (http://www.legendmicro.com/store/6108_ProductInfo.lmsp). $320ish will get you two of these. i love referbished and recertified equipment. i myself went from a vintage 1996 19"crt to these and my eyes were pleased. aaaahhhhh 20,000:1 contrast and 2 ms responce. mmmmm, tasty.

Those are TN panels. Perhaps decent for TN panels, but TN panels nonetheless.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 13 January 2010, 18:35:14: CNET (oh well) has reviewed the U2711
http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-u2711/4505-3174_7-33913833.html

man do i hate when review sites dock the score because of high price
you are supposed to compare price to the score when trying to decide
instead they try to manage your money for you
so without reading the full review, one might apply the price a second time when trying to decide whether or not it is worth it...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 18:41:17: It also has a poor energy rating. Remember kids - every time you watch porno on one of these screens, a polar bear dies.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 13 January 2010, 19:04:13: i was going to comment on that, but left it out... really? 42-115w, ideal brightness is usually toward the low end... is 60 (maybe 80) watts so bad? OH HEAVENS, the watts! before everyone got all crazy about it, that was a normal light bulb. a lamp. that isnt very staggering.
seems pretty much exactly normal when compared to other displays like it.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 19:08:46: Their current 30" screen chews up something like 150-200W... Then again, that's probably because it doesn't use LED back lighting.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 13 January 2010, 19:11:26: neither does this one.

i thought i would only get more pumped about this monitor, but no LED backlighting, no rotating stand are both kind of a shame. that, and i probably wont get it day-one because of the way dell inflates its prices before putting everything on sale permanently: it will probably be $800 easily within a month of being released.

everyone is worried about the input lag from having so many inputs, too.

i dont like it when dynamic contrast cannot be turned off, but it isnt such a bad feature for movies and games. i especially like the light sensor option on my current monitor, gets brighter during the daytime (but more customization, like even a min/max, would be nice).
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 19:15:55: Oh, I thought it was.

I wonder why LED backlighting hasn't caught on in the desktop world in the same way it has for laptops...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 13 January 2010, 19:19:11: oh it has, im not the only one surprised that dell didnt do it this time.
i wish CCFL had an advantage, but i cant think of one. it doesnt completely ruin it, but one of those things, like the stand, that i wonder the justification.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: exia on Wed, 13 January 2010, 21:12:27: how are the prices on 30" LCD screens? everywhere i still see them at $1000+...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 13 January 2010, 21:52:14: that is pretty much normal
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 13 January 2010, 23:02:59: Quote from: AndrewZorn;150673
CNET (oh well) has reviewed the U2711
http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-u2711/4505-3174_7-33913833.html

Are you disappointed that it got 4.5 stars instead of 5? There's hardly anything on CNET that gets 4.5 stars much less 5. Anything over 4 by CNET is pretty much at the top of the food chain as they see it.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 02:19:53: just saying that their main gripe was the price
in fact, the only OTHER gripe was the stand
everything else was perfect, beyond expectations, etc
so price played into the review score, instead of highly-rated items just costing more
and as a side note, yes, i think you should give out some 5-stars here and there, especially considering how positive they were

i say oh well just because i dont like cnet
definitely a few stupid aspects of the review
the most memorable being their explanation that "old 16:10 displays were only 1680x1050, but new 16:9 displays allow full HD (1920x1080)" or something like that
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 14 January 2010, 08:03:16: Quote from: exia;150712
how are the prices on 30" LCD screens? everywhere i still see them at $1000+...

Unless you are a stickler for high resolution, you can get a bigger 1080p TV for the same price or less. It'll be big, probably have better contrast, and you can watch TV on it. Unfortunately, you'll be stuck at 1920x1080.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 12:58:14: better contrast? i thought they just used marketing tricks to get that high. there arent really IPS panels over 1000:1 last time i checked.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 14 January 2010, 13:01:18: Quote from: AndrewZorn;150871
better contrast? i thought they just used marketing tricks to get that high. there arent really IPS panels over 1000:1 last time i checked.

Not the case. You really need to see them side-by-side to see. There is more than one type of contrast measurement, as well: Full On/Off and ANSI. Niether one is definitive, and the both need to be evaluated for a true measurement of contrast.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 13:03:23: right, by marketing tricks, i mean dynamic backlighting and whatnot. the panel itself is still usually 1000:1 i believe.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 14 January 2010, 13:04:28: Quote from: itlnstln;150774
Unless you are a stickler for high resolution, you can get a bigger 1080p TV for the same price or less. It'll be big, probably have better contrast, and you can watch TV on it. Unfortunately, you'll be stuck at 1920x1080.

I was trying to think of the best way of phrasing "I think anything bigger than 30' becomes uncomfortable after a while", but I really don't think there's any good way of phrasing that...
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 14 January 2010, 13:21:47: Quote from: ch_123;150687
I wonder why LED backlighting hasn't caught on in the desktop world in the same way it has for laptops...

While it definitely has, space tends to be less and cost more of an issue when it comes to desktop monitors.
Quote from: ch_123;150876
I was trying to think of the best way of phrasing "I think anything bigger than 30' becomes uncomfortable after a while", but I really don't think there's any good way of phrasing that...

Even a 30' screen would be a little big, wouldn't it? :P

For me, a 19" is large enough. Anything much bigger, and there would only be more real estate for the mouse pointer to be hiding in.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: exia on Thu, 14 January 2010, 13:53:47: Quote from: itlnstln;150774
Unless you are a stickler for high resolution, you can get a bigger 1080p TV for the same price or less. It'll be big, probably have better contrast, and you can watch TV on it. Unfortunately, you'll be stuck at 1920x1080.

true, but i would much rather take a 30" 2560x1600 over a 50" 1920x1080 screen. i could have 2 1280 wide windows side by side

Quote from: keyb_gr;150882
While it definitely has, space tends to be less and cost more of an issue when it comes to desktop monitors.

Even a 30' screen would be a little big, wouldn't it? :P

For me, a 19" is large enough. Anything much bigger, and there would only be more real estate for the mouse pointer to be hiding in.

19" monitors don't go over 1920x1080 (unless you want to give up HD movies)

I myself don't even watch the standard definition stuff anymore, 1080p all the way (or 720p is I have to, I really wish some shows would move on up)

but then even 1080p is a low res for some of the larger LCD TVs that are coming out now, we need 2160p now
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 14:11:43: Quote from: exia;150889
we need 2160p now

...and then content to match it.
this would be easy if they adopted the same model as pirates. you get the best resolution you can.

but no, everything has to be so 'hip', "1080P, ZOMG!" "HIGH-DEF screen on my ipod" etc

because of all the marketing crap i think it is probably far away.
but it would just be nice if displays were sold in all sorts of resolutions, and there was content out there that ranged in resolution, from 640x480 to 5120x2160, or more... resolution just shouldnt MATTER so much.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 14 January 2010, 17:03:16: Clean scaling is key. Sure, up the resolution, but like AZ said, there really isn't any content for it yet. If you have to scale, the picture won't be as sharp as something in the native resolution. Blu-Ray and a little content from Sat./Cable providers is in 1080p, but the vast majority is not. Upping the resolution on a TV (or lowering the resolution) by some non-1080 factor is just going to yield a soft, and not-very-pleasant picture.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 18:03:21: dont get me wrong, my next monitor WILL be 2560x____. i am definitely not paying more to try to get more out of TV/movies, but rather the extra room and resolution in games.

also, im not sure how it would work: would a 640x480 native 27" monitor displaying 640x480 content look better than a 2560x1600 native 27" monitor showing the same thing?

i understand the 'softness', but if the display is the same size... i dont know. you are adding pixels, even if they are just interpolated. with a good algorithm, it would be like resizing a picture in photoshop compared to just zooming in on it... hard to say whether it would actually make it look WORSE. but i dont know.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 14 January 2010, 19:27:22: Quote from: keyb_gr;150882
While it definitely has, space tends to be less and cost more of an issue when it comes to desktop monitors.

I was considering buying a new monitor recently, and I couldn't find that many that used LED backlighting, let alone reasonably priced ones.

Quote
Even a 30' screen would be a little big, wouldn't it? :P

For me, a 19" is large enough. Anything much bigger, and there would only be more real estate for the mouse pointer to be hiding in.

Depends on how you use the PC, and what for. Things like games and films would reap obvious benefits. For regular computer use, you'd really need some sort of tiled window manager to reap the benefit.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 14 January 2010, 22:44:36: i would think a higher resolution should make someone LESS dependent on tiling window managers...

and i believe the joke was 30' vs 30"
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 14 January 2010, 23:48:18: Quote from: AndrewZorn;151025
i would think a higher resolution should make someone LESS dependent on tiling window managers...

Only if you like to micro manage your windows, and have a really sensitive mouse.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: williamjoseph on Sat, 16 January 2010, 19:57:58: i am exceedingly happy with them, would even get a third dedicated for my netbooks or old AMD platform. but for those of us "like me" who are not too keen of the downsides of TN moniters, please fill us in. the most i have found is that it is an established standard, but is not as energy efficient as newer, more expensive standards.

Quote from: timw4mail;150498
Those are TN panels. Perhaps decent for TN panels, but TN panels nonetheless.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 16 January 2010, 21:14:04: it isnt that TN is old, its just cheap. awful viewing angles, image quality not as good, etc.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: fireglow on Tue, 19 January 2010, 02:45:42: I've been reading a lot of good stuff about the Dell 2209WA in here, so I got one.
Now, my model has quite noticeable yellowing in the lower left corner.
It's very disturbing.
Did any of you had this problem?
If so, how have you dealt with it?
Dell offers this return service, but I heard they only rotate the returned models between customers, so I'm very inclined to just return the display to my retailer and be done with it.

(edit: and by corner I mean a 10x10 cm [~4x4 inch] rectangle, not a few pixels)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 19 January 2010, 04:47:20: dell has an excellent exchange policy... at least, they did when/with my 2405fpw. next day, new monitor at doorstep with a return packing slip inside.

i really doubt they just cycle returns as replacements.

but if you bought it "in store", definitely just go for a refund/exchange (and consider doing it anyway)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 January 2010, 08:17:17: Cycling returns would be incredibly expensive for Dell as they would just keep having to process the same return over and over. That's what refurbishing and the Dell Outlet is for.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 19 January 2010, 08:19:53: If you buy Dell, make sure you don't get a monitor that's low-priced. Chances are it'll be a piece of ****, just like all those nice low-priced Pentium 4 laptops and flat panels.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: firestorm on Sun, 24 January 2010, 15:06:45: Hi. New guy here. :)

FWIW, I recently went through the whole - I love my CRT, but want the spacing savings of an LCD - dilemma. Mostly because I loved my Samsung 900IFT (Professional 19" flat CRT) and I've gotten more into amateur photography in recent years.

I was aiming for $300.

We have a fair number of the Dell 2209WA screens at work. They are very nice and I planned on buying one. I recently discovered the NEC EA231WMi though, which is also an eIPS display. They are both very comparable.

Both have 8bit color - IIRC many TN panels are only 6 bit. This is one reason these screens look better.

The Dell is 16:10, which I prefer. The NEC is 16:9, but only .25-.5 inches shorter, plus something like an 1.5 inches wider. I did measurements last week and already forgot the actual numbers. Both have 3 year warranties; both use LG panels; both are built well. The NEC has Displayport, if you care. I didn't.

The NEC also has speakers, but they're horrible. The soundbar for Dells are great, but they're better than these "headphones in a coffee can." It's a shame, as that was one of the factors that made me choose the NEC.

The NEC also has Eco modes and auto-ambient+white-content adjustment. It's funky though. I disabled both.

Otherwise, I mostly got the NEC because I could get it for $304 shipped (at Buy.com.)

For about $380, there's the NEC P221W, which is an S-PVA screen. Better suited for photography, with 10 bit color. I can say I have a 2208WFP (S-PVA panel) next to a 2209WA on my desk at work, and the main difference that I see is color accuracy.

There's also the Dell 2007FP, which I've heard comes in S-IPS (better than eIPS, or Economy IPS) and S-PVA versions. S-IPS may be preferred, but, again, S-PVA is no slouch either. A little spendy at ~$390. There are other good 4:3 displays, but they are obviously becoming a rare breed.

This list may be helpful, 'though it doesn't spec' what is 4:3, 16:9 or 16:10:
http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/s-ips-lcd-list.php

Ironically, I had about as much trouble finding an LCD that met my needs and desires as I currently am having finding the perfect keyboard.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 18 February 2010, 06:58:43: Well, all this talk about monitors and salivating over the Dell U2711 got me to take some action and to replace my Apple Cinema Display 23" and Samsung BWX23. I've got a string of heavy projects coming up on insanely tight deadlines so it was time to buy anything that might give me a slight productivity boost.

I initially leaned toward getting a U2711, but like some people here, I really wanted a 16:10 orientation and I didn't want to get more screen space by shrinking the pixels more. My eyes get strained enough already.

That left me wading into the pool of 30" IPS monitors and man that is not a fun pool to be wading through. I really wanted to go with the Dell 3008WFP for it's sweet looks and bazillion input possibilities, but the input lag and Dell's reputation for color variance, and the 3008's questionable stand quality gave me cause to keep looking. I had a bad previous experience with HP monitors so the HP 30" was off the list. I couldn't find a lot of fans of the Gateway 30" so that's out too.

In the end, I went with something I was familiar with. I went with a 30" Apple Cinema Display. Once I realized the price had come down and that it was the same price at my local electronics store as the Dell 3008WFP it was a no brainer. Although this model is several years old, it's perfectly fine in every spec that matters to me and I didn't have to get it shipped so I could return it without a major hassle if needed.

I'd like to put this thing in the case of the Dell 3008WFP, but in the end, I spend my time looking at the center, not at the side or back. I'll get over it and I've got all the external card readers I need.

It's a brilliant monitor... expensive, but brilliant. I'm back to a one monitor setup and my neck and eyes feel better already.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 18 February 2010, 09:54:11: From an economical point of view, it would be better to buy two 24" than one 30". Personally I find twin monitors somewhat cumbersome, so I'm waiting for 30" to come down in price to somewhat more sane levels. Perhaps even 27" would be a good idea.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 18 February 2010, 10:21:00: Quote from: ripster;159119
At arms length distance to the screen does it cause neck strain looking up or down?? I'm tempted to go 30" as well but for some reason that segment of the market seems to be technologically stagnant right now.

No, neck strain isn't an issue at all. I don't find myself craning my neck any direction to adjust to the extra screen space. I have fairly decent peripheral vision (as far as I know) so it's possible the size could pose an issue if I didn't.

I actually get less neck strain because when I had a two monitor setup, I couldn't comfortably read the second monitor without keeping my head turned. With one bigger screen, I have enough prime space to work and I can see everything rather easily sitting at about an arm's length away.

Yeah, the 30" monitor space really seemed to hit a wall. I was waiting for a 30" LED monitor before I was going to finally upgrade, but I've been holding out for a long time and decided it was time enough to make a decision if nothing coming out really seemed to be moving forward in image quality, brightness, and power consumption.

Power consumption and brightness was another reason why I went back to the Apple Cinema Display. The Dell 3008WFP is less bright (370cd/m2 vs 400 cs/m2) and it's a power hog! It's rated at 163W (typical) and 250W (maximum) whereas the Apple Cinema 30 is 150W maximum.

Anyway, I'm quite enjoying my new display. I was a little worried (and still am) that my eyes would find it hard to be sitting in front of this much light coming at it, but they're doing ok so far. Keeping the brightness tuned down seems to help a lot.

One area in which I'm really loving this display is for photo editing. I can finally view my D300 RAW files in enough detail to get a good sense as whether the image is good enough to keep or not.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: hacfed on Thu, 18 February 2010, 11:12:57: So, did the original poster make a decision?

If not, then here's my 2c: I have 3 cheap Dell 22" TN panel 1920x1080 displays turned vertically. Yes, viewing angles aren't wonderful, but they aren't a problem either. There's a trick: put the outside monitors so you're looking 'down' at them -- for the Dell ones, this means that 1/3 monitors has the logo on the opposite side to the other two. This maximises effective viewing angle margins.

I have a very credible 28" 16:9 CRT for watching movies on, so for my needs, my Dells are fine. Are they too tall? Well, I have them at arm's length and a bit. I think they're just right. Sometimes I find myself leaning in a little, and then it takes some head tilting to see the extreme top and bottom... that generally happens with font size 8 or less, though. All relative, I know.

All this talk of 27" and 30" displays sounds mighty tempting. I like the idea of 'oneness' -- except that I currently have a lot more real estate for a lot less money, and because they're 3 seperate displays, I don't have to get a fancy window manager ;)

Wish there was a 30" out there with my 3240x1920 pixels. That really would be epic. Plus I could run MAME on it, fullscreen. Oh joy! (although I guess the actual pixels would have to be 20% smaller or more)
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 February 2010, 12:40:27: For me, it would depend on what I was using the monitors for. At work, I like my 3-monitor setup. I can have a Remote Desktop session on one, e-mail on another, and my main work area (Geekhack) in front on my main. It also helps with Web development as I can code in front and test the page on another monitor, or I can write queries in the main and do data analysis in Excel on another. The different "panels" provide a mental separation that makes work tasks easier for me. At home, I prefer one large monitor.
Title: I Want New Monitors
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 18 February 2010, 13:24:07: Quote from: hyperlinked;159092
replace my Apple Cinema Display 23" and Samsung BWX23

Do tell the fate of these decrepit depecated displays?