Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 27 July 2016, 10:00:49
DSA and SA are very disappointing. Nothing has come close to my beloved Gaterons / EnjoyPBT sets.
Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.
Aside from this forum's community, and organizing a group buy, are we basically out of luck?
Post by: xondat on Wed, 27 July 2016, 10:02:48
Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.
There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 July 2016, 13:22:35
Post by: bloorocket on Wed, 27 July 2016, 21:49:08
Hence GH does IC to make sure Supply-Demand-Profit chain is not disrupted.
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Fri, 29 July 2016, 00:34:39
I like PBT as well, but it seems more utilitarian and less "fashionable". Maybe if they were both equally easy to produce you would see more PBT sets since they resist wear better. I know I feel like I barely want to use my GMK set because it was pricey and I don't want to make them look unevenly shiny.
That being said, Varmilo seems to make some more colored sets to mix and match with. Mechanical Keyboards.com is about to get some sets in. I have a Varmilo TKL with Grey PBT that looks really good (a nice bright, clean looking hue) and I am thinking about getting some more colors to mix in.
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 29 July 2016, 01:19:08
Post by: zslane on Fri, 29 July 2016, 15:40:10
Post by: Sneaky Potato on Fri, 29 July 2016, 15:46:44
Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.
There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.
I think you nailed it. I mean signature plastics barely has enough demand for a lot of their stuff to even make it worth their while to keep stock. It comes down to a business decision IMO.
Post by: Photekq on Fri, 29 July 2016, 17:01:44
BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.BSP do produce keycaps; they just don't dyesub them anymore.
There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.
There is a market for $100+ keysets though, as Massdrop just proved with GMK Carbon (not even PBT), and enjoypbt sets are always priced lower than $100.
Post by: SKD on Sat, 30 July 2016, 03:03:04
Post by: Waateva on Sat, 30 July 2016, 10:35:33
BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.BSP do produce keycaps; they just don't dyesub them anymore.
There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.
There is a market for $100+ keysets though, as Massdrop just proved with GMK Carbon (not even PBT), and enjoypbt sets are always priced lower than $100.
Is it true BSP doesn't produce spacebars as well?
Post by: zslane on Sat, 30 July 2016, 10:46:25
I don't get the fuss about them really.
They are spherical. That is the fuss.
If you don't hunger for spherical keycaps, then you'll never "get" the appeal of SP's keycaps. Yes, I know they have their DCS profile, but nobody designs custom keysets in DCS now that SA has a complete set of profile molds.
Post by: bmilcs on Sat, 30 July 2016, 11:19:32
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 30 July 2016, 15:53:40
Many dye-jobs are comical, they are disproportional, childish etc.
I like IMSTO produced keycaps, comparing them to GMK's, the top row was aligned top, while on GMK keycaps, they are not aligned exactly to the top, both are ok. tho
I liked the Vortex molds for bumped F/J's, they are the best bumped F/J's I've used, however the keycaps themselves are sub-par, as the stem part is visible from the top - Gateron doesn't have this issue, yet they have the scooped+bumped F/J's, which most people like, but I would rather have flat bumped F/J's
There's also the warping, I've heard people complain of warped EnjoyPBT spacebars
When you consider all these, it's just simpler to go with GMK ABS's - but I do agree that PBT feels much better
Dream: Gateron extending their blank keycap collection + IMSTO doing custom dye-jobs, so we can have the best keycaps with whatever written on them, for all absurd layouts
Post by: zslane on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:36:57
Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.
And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... :thumb:
Post by: bmilcs on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:44:08
Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.
And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... :thumb:
I'm actually making a spreadsheet of original costs right now. Planning on selling Pulse for sure... and upcoming Nantucket Selectric :D...
DSA isn't so bad. I'm not going to lie... DSA has the best key texture/feel of any keycap I've tried... but I like Cherry Profile the most.
What I want is DSA texture, BSP GMK quality/thickness, with GMK/SP colors, in PBT.
Post by: bmilcs on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:45:20
Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.
And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... :thumb:
I'm actually making a spreadsheet of original costs right now. Planning on selling Pulse for sure... and upcoming Nantucket Selectric :D...
DSA isn't so bad. I'm not going to lie... DSA has the best key texture/feel of any keycap I've tried... but I like Cherry Profile the most.
What I want is DSA texture, BSP GMK quality/thickness, with GMK/SP colors, in PBT.
My Pok3r has to go. I think I'm going to splurge after selling and build a godly Phantom TKL with Silver TEX. Full programmability :D
Post by: SBJ on Sun, 31 July 2016, 01:56:45
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.
Post by: zslane on Sun, 31 July 2016, 10:59:13
Not exactly blown away by the sets I've got from Signature Plastics either.
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.
Do you anticipate disappointment when Amazing Chocolatier arrives?
Post by: SBJ on Sun, 31 July 2016, 11:05:35
It's possible. I'm still probably getting it though.Not exactly blown away by the sets I've got from Signature Plastics either.
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.
Do you anticipate disappointment when Amazing Chocolatier arrives?
Post by: Khers on Sun, 31 July 2016, 13:16:19
Post by: zslane on Sun, 31 July 2016, 19:57:10
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 31 July 2016, 20:09:08
I think the limitations of the dyesub process tend to channel keysets into bland gray territory (and we can think of biege as a sort of "warm gray" for all intents and purposes). It's rare that you see dyesub PBT sets like Galaxy Class. Plus, I kinda get the feeling that the "thick PBT" crowd is rather conservative in their colorway palette preferences and elect to stay firmly out of unicorn vomit territory.
There are exceptions too: https://www.originativeco.com/products/pbt-valentine
I kind of fancy the alphas, could make an interesting combo with GMK Bluegaloo's
Post by: Adgar on Sun, 31 July 2016, 20:43:58
Post by: bmilcs on Mon, 01 August 2016, 09:19:57
To be honest,I don't like the DSA Keycap which make my fingers feel uncomfortable.
Is the surface of the keys or the DSA profile responsible?
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 02 August 2016, 13:18:05
Post by: LiquidEvilGaming on Tue, 02 August 2016, 16:41:52
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 02 August 2016, 17:46:45
I'd say it's outside of the affordability for many people honestly, if you look at the percentage of cheap mechanicals sold versus higher end ones in the market i doubt too many people as a whole within this niche of a niche are willing to shellout that sort of coin for keycaps outside of folks like us here. And as much as i have spent on the hobby honestly had i not acquired my BSP set via trade i would have not spent that much cash on them personally. (Though i say this having bought a Midnight DCS set with no review discount)
How does DCS compare?
Post by: LiquidEvilGaming on Tue, 02 August 2016, 19:22:29
The profile is nice being similar to Cherry profile and the midnight set is gorgeous IMO but for doubleshot ABS the plastic is disappointingly verh thin sadly.I'd say it's outside of the affordability for many people honestly, if you look at the percentage of cheap mechanicals sold versus higher end ones in the market i doubt too many people as a whole within this niche of a niche are willing to shellout that sort of coin for keycaps outside of folks like us here. And as much as i have spent on the hobby honestly had i not acquired my BSP set via trade i would have not spent that much cash on them personally. (Though i say this having bought a Midnight DCS set with no review discount)
How does DCS compare?
Post by: xtrafrood on Tue, 02 August 2016, 20:15:32
Post by: zslane on Tue, 02 August 2016, 20:17:50
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 02 August 2016, 20:30:11
I wouldn't use it as a daily/regular driver, yet I just want to experience it
Post by: zslane on Tue, 02 August 2016, 22:27:34
[attach=1]
Post by: zephyr11 on Tue, 02 August 2016, 22:52:26
Post by: clappingcactus on Tue, 02 August 2016, 23:51:01
Post by: Data on Wed, 03 August 2016, 09:01:09
(http://i.imgur.com/lon0B64.jpg)
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 03 August 2016, 11:15:37
I have the 104UK Hi-Pro, and it is a really cool keyboard. I don't use it as my daily driver, for various reasons, but I still think highly of it.
(Attachment Link)
That's some nice keycaps, thanks for sharing
Yeah, I'd kill for some pretty colour SA PBT blanks. I'm probably going to have to custom order a set at some point given how impossible it is to get momentum going on group buys for this sort of stuff from what I've seen.
Did you ask for a quote, it might be super affordable, if they are willing to make them - they also update their pricing post-jobs, so PBT blanks might be cheap, you might get a custom set made cheap, they would realise the potential and increase the prices later on
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 03 August 2016, 12:15:55
That would have been nice. I prefer their surface texture with coarser grit than the norm on Cherry and OEM profile keys, as well as their more acute angle on the ZXCVB row. I don't find the thickness of the side walls to be important at all.
Cherry profile is nice though in that different manufacturers' keys are very much the same so you could mix and match keys on the same board. I would not want to mix DCS and Cherry profile.
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 03 August 2016, 12:23:34
How can you not like SA?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/lon0B64.jpg)
1. Ergonomics... Far too tall. OEM & DSA are decent, Cherry is just right
2. Too sculpted. I find it awkward when typing and prone to errors. I don't want keys to hug my fingers, resisting lateral and horizontal movement.
3. Cheap feeling. Maybe it's just me. Compared to my Enjoypbt / Gateron PBT which feel substantial and perfectly contoured.
I have almost completely sworn off ABS, but giving it one more shot via the GMK bandwagon. Cherry profile and thick sounds nice.
I should note that I work on the computer for a living and average ~120-125 wpm.
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 03 August 2016, 12:25:48
Post by: LiquidEvilGaming on Wed, 03 August 2016, 13:49:44
How can you not like SA?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/lon0B64.jpg)
1. Ergonomics... Far too tall. OEM & DSA are decent, Cherry is just right
2. Too sculpted. I find it awkward when typing and prone to errors. I don't want keys to hug my fingers, resisting lateral and horizontal movement.
3. Cheap feeling. Maybe it's just me. Compared to my Enjoypbt / Gateron PBT which feel substantial and perfectly contoured.
I have almost completely sworn off ABS, but giving it one more shot via the GMK bandwagon. Cherry profile and thick sounds nice.
I should note that I work on the computer for a living and average ~120-125 wpm.
I think we have similar thoughts on SA, i don't use my computer as my living but i type 90-100 WPM and i can't stand SA, it LOOKS gorgeous but to actually use is another story.
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 03 August 2016, 14:18:03
I think we have similar thoughts on SA, i don't use my computer as my living but i type 90-100 WPM and i can't stand SA, it LOOKS gorgeous but to actually use is another story.
I roughly agree
bmilcs, I don't think the feeling is cheap tho, far from it, it makes me cry that the keycaps are so extremely high, as the keycaps themselves feel awesome, I just wish I could use them, but like you guys, I can't, they just look good and that's it
The main reason I don't like them is their stem, it's not recessed like OEM/Cherry, all SP keycaps, DSA, SA, DCS have flat stems, so you lose from the height
It's a huge waste if you are using Cherry stabilisers for example
The main reason is probably SP not wanting to deal with issues of a recessed stem, kind of makes sense, I drill my Cherry profile keycaps for Costar stabs for example, I don't need to do it with OEM/DSA/SA
While typing, my wrists touch the desk, that's how low I type, with SA I'm forced to change my typing
Anyway, without further blabbering, if there was a readily available decent SA set, I would buy it in an instant + If I had a month of hobby time on my hands, I might manually shorten their stems
Post by: clappingcactus on Wed, 03 August 2016, 16:37:26
Did you ask for a quote, it might be super affordable, if they are willing to make them - they also update their pricing post-jobs, so PBT blanks might be cheap, you might get a custom set made cheap, they would realise the potential and increase the prices later on
Just sent the e-mail. I asked for the price of 20x four different colored blank 1X SA PBT caps. It'd go on my VE.A at some point, and I'd probably grab the mods from the upcoming Penumbra group buys/drops anyway. If the price isn't exorbitant, I'll ask for how much the mods would cost. I know one off ABS custom sets are around $700, which is why I'm hesitant to ask them for the price on the PBTs for a one off.
The price they give me should be telling though, considering I'm asking for a single shot, and the order size is not very big,
Post by: zslane on Wed, 03 August 2016, 16:42:37
Post by: clappingcactus on Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:14:01
Nobody makes high-profile spherical keycaps in PBT except Topre. Is that who you are trying to get a quote from?
Maybe I misunderstood something because I'm relatively new, but Signature Plastics is who I contacted. I thought the SA profile is owned by them?
Post by: zslane on Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:18:34
Post by: clappingcactus on Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:24:16
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:41:15
As a tip, when asking for a quote, ask for a broad one, like how much does it cost to manufacture one 1u keycap based on the quantity, so they might tell you that 1-10 costs this much, 10-100, 1000+ etc. - better for both sides - otherwise you are missing out the sweet spot in pricing, you can even pay the same amount for less keycaps
Post by: clappingcactus on Thu, 04 August 2016, 20:29:29
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 05 August 2016, 00:02:07
zslane turned out to be correct as expected. Looks like matt3o on DT is working on something, though. Here's to hoping.
Yup. Right now the goal is for dyesub. Doubleshot might be attempted later if money allows but that's a big "if" currently.
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 05 August 2016, 00:15:58
Edit: WOW, Here's to hoping they go the irregular route and go for a stepped return, I hate pressing "' instead of Return
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 05 August 2016, 12:46:14
Stepped return? I think that might drive me batty given I hit Enter at the far left of the key with my pinky.
Post by: Lepidus on Fri, 05 August 2016, 13:06:46
(http://i.imgur.com/9QYrEsL.jpg)
Btw, are you guys sure SP dont do PBT Blanks? I also thought they just couldnt do doubleshots because of the shinking issue, but not blanks. If they just pour some PBT on SA molds, what could happen?
If I recal correctly, they used to sell PBT SA blanks back when they had that huge spreadsheet of extras on their website. Even now if you go to their keyshop, on SA blanks option, WAN (a PBT color) is listed among the options:
http://pimpmykeyboard.com/sa-1-space-pack-of-10/
Post by: unoab on Fri, 05 August 2016, 14:40:04
Btw, are you guys sure SP dont do PBT Blanks? I also thought they just couldnt do doubleshots because of the shinking issue, but not blanks. If they just pour some PBT on SA molds, what could happen?
If I recal correctly, they used to sell PBT SA blanks back when they had that huge spreadsheet of extras on their website. Even now if you go to their keyshop, on SA blanks option, WAN (a PBT color) is listed among the options:
they sell the leftovers of what they have, I have some of those PBT caps, and there was some discussion of it on a few threads, here is an excerpt from the classic space discussion:
...
It turns out SP can make 1x and 1.5x PBT SA profile Row 3 caps. You can even buy some right now on the PMK store....
However, they're left overs from a short one-off run made for a client. They cannot be doubleshot and SP doesn't have the holders to dyesub them either. So those few blanks are all you're going to be able to get from them in terms of SA PBT. Sorry.
...