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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Ranma13 on Sun, 10 January 2010, 19:52:22
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Compared to the Filco Majestouch Brown Cherry and Topre Realforce 87U all 55g, the variable-weight Topre feels really mushy (and the spacebar requires significant force to use). Is this normal? I don't think I have a defective keyboard but this thing feels significantly different than the 87U 55g. I was expecting a 55g, but with lighter touch.
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What makes the 55g non-mushy by comparison? Does it have a more distinct feedback?
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The space bar will lighten up some with use. But the issue you are feeling is that the 45g domes collapse faster than the 55g domes (at least they do when compared to my short throw 55g Topre board). The 55g Topre I have requires considerably more force to actuate the key where as the 45g 87U/86U/89 feel much lighter in comparison and require a much lighter touch. As ripster stated give it some time and your fingers will develop the lighter touch required for the 45g keys then they will feel better. I personally prefer the light touch of the 45g keys and think the short throw board I do have might be better with 45g keys verses the 55g keys it has but the short throw may make them a little to light.
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Well, I did a more extended test with both keyboards. The spacebar on the variable-weight seems to require more pressure than the 55g one, which is weird considering that it's supposed to be 45g. I pulled it out and took a look underneath, but nothing looked out of place. The rest of the keys though felt about the same, just that the 45g version is noticeably lighter. The spacebar is still an oddity though.
I think the reason why I thought it was really mushy at first was cuz I went straight form the Filco browns to the Realforce. I gotta say, I really prefer the clickiness of the Filco keys over the Realforce and I can't wait for the blue Otaku to come back in stock.
Oh, I also compared it to the HHKB. The spacebar on the Realforce is definitely stiffer than the HHKB's one, even though both are supposed to be 45g.
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What makes the 55g non-mushy by comparison? Does it have a more distinct feedback?
All I have to compare with is a short throw 3.5mm verses 4mm Topre but:
1) The 55g board is considerably stiffer than the 45g board and makes my 30g board feel liner. I was actually surprised by how much stiffer they are compared to the 45g keys. This is the main reason I have not purchased one of the 55g boards yet. I really like the light touch of the 45's. Also the difference if feel is significant. Going from my 45 to the uniform 30 is not a big deal the keys are just slightly lighter and the key feel is very similar but going from the 45 to the 55 there is a much bigger jump in how much stiffer they feel to me and I have to keep reminding myself to hit the keys harder.
2) The stiffness translates into a more pronounced tactile bump as well but that should be expected.
3) The 45g board really requires a lighter touch and the 30g board I have really requires a light touch to feel the bump. Again this should be expected just because of the way the switch works. Or really how the dome collapses.
I personally would not say that the 45g keys are mushy but then again they do feel so much lighter than my short through board that I can see how someone would feel that way. I mean the 55g keys feel almost as stiff as a Model M so when you type on them you develop a pretty heavy hand where on the 45g keys you really need a light tough. I also think that the 45g on the normal 87U is about perfect once you adjust to the lighter touch required for them. I mean you can really fly on them for me at least I have to think about it when I'm on the 55g board like now (hit the key harder darn it) you would think that the small 10g difference would not make that big of a difference in subjective feel of the board and it doesn't when I compare my 30g board to the 45g board but when you compare the 45g to the 55g board though they are night and day. I really think someone that really loves the Model M would like the 55g board because the 45g board may be to light for them. But for me I really like the lighter switch because for me they are just easer to type on.
I'm starting to ramble so time to stop this post....
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Oh, I also compared it to the HHKB. The spacebar on the Realforce is definitely stiffer than the HHKB's one, even though both are supposed to be 45g.
give the grease a chance to work in and it will loosen up. The dome under the space bar is a 45g dome so what is causing the stiffness is the stabiliser under the plate which should have grease on it but it may need a bit of working in before it loosens up.
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I just tried Ripster's nickel test on each of the spacebars on the keyboards I own. I placed the coins directly in the middle of the space bar, where the activation switches are. Here's what it came out to:
HHKB: 50g
Topre variable: 70g
Topre 55g: 70g
Filco Brown: 45g
Zboard Merc (for fun): 60g
So at least for now, it seems that the spacebars on both the Topre's require the same amount of force.
Ultimately I think I'll stick with the Filco though. I really like how light these keys are, and the feeling is more tactile than the Topre is, which feels more mushy by comparison.
And wow, I just tried typing on my old Zboard. I can't believe how mushy it is!
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I wouldn't describe Topres as mushy. They have a soft feeling compared with the Cherry switches, but I find it better in some ways.
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A few people in the past have commented that the variable weight Topres feel more mushy. Rdjack explained the reasons quite well. For those people that though the variable weight keys were too mushy, those same people thought that the all-45g HHKB was the sweet-spot, still light, but with good tactility. YMMV, though.
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There are plenty of other, more-fitting adjectives for John Denver and his music. "Dead" would be inappropriate but accurate.
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Topres are definitely not mushy. I can confirm the spacebar on my variable board is stiffer than my all 55g. I'm using them both side-by-side today. I seriously love these boards.
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Topres are definitely not mushy. I can confirm the spacebar on my variable board is stiffer than my all 55g. I'm using them both side-by-side today. I seriously love these boards.
Hmm interesting. I guess I need to break some nickels out and test all of mine and see what the fuss is about. Weather they are stiffer or not they have never bothered me so haven't tested them.
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Neither of the spacebars bother me either. Both boards are equally fun to type on, I can't choose a favorite yet.
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Neither of the spacebars bother me either. Both boards are equally fun to type on, I can't choose a favorite yet.
Hmm maybe after I get a μTRON I will have to get a 55g board if for no other reason than to see for myself if I will like it or not.
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Well, I'm gonna try out the variable-weight for a few days as my main keyboard and see how the spacebar does. This darned spacebar just feels so stiff!
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How did you actually break that space bar? I had no problems removing mine using the instructions that come with the extra set of keys. Pop off one side at a time but you have to hold the other side down while doing it but I have to admit while doing it I was very nervous about potentially breaking it like you did.
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So Topre rubber domes feel mushy? Interesting...
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So Topre rubber domes feel mushy? Interesting...
Yeah, I guess you were right all along.
Too bad I wasted my money on two Topre key switch boards...it must be pure coincidence that they just happen to be two of the best keyboards I've ever used and the ones I prefer when I have to type for hours at a time.
Perhaps good keyboards are not limited to overtly lound tactile "in-your-face" keyboards like the classic buckling springs that most of us love so much. Well engineered keyboards with superior build quality are also quite nice to type on...even with those GD rubber domes.
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Now that's worthy of a QFT...
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Now that's worthy of a QFT...
Perhaps your BFF Microsoft Windows will post a QFT...nah :)
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To be fair, some people just don't like Topre's. I'm starting to become one of them after getting the Filco Brown. I like the non-sharp spacebar and more tactile feel of the keys, although I wish that the texture was rough like that on the Topre. I find my fingers slipping around more than I'd like.
Does anybody know how the blank replacement keycaps for the Filco at EliteKeyboards feel like? If they're more textured than the default ones that come with the Filco, I might pick up a set.
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I thought the Filco blanks felt the same.
They feel the same to me. They're the same caps as the ones that come on the 'boards but without the coating. The coating makes no difference in the way the keys feel, and they get shiny just as fast.
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To be fair, some people just don't like Topre's. I'm starting to become one of them after getting the Filco Brown. I like the non-sharp spacebar and more tactile feel of the keys, although I wish that the texture was rough like that on the Topre. I find my fingers slipping around more than I'd like.
Does anybody know how the blank replacement keycaps for the Filco at EliteKeyboards feel like? If they're more textured than the default ones that come with the Filco, I might pick up a set.
I have to admit the Brown Cherries are growing on me. I didn't think too much of them initially, but I used my PINK Filco 104-key for a few hours last night and started to enjoy the feel of the Brown Cherries.
Overall, I still prefer the Topre key switches. The "snap of the cup rubber" provides more of a tactile response to me than the Cherry Browns and the soft landing is better. The texture of the Topre key caps is also hard to match.
I can't comment on whether or not the blank Filco key caps feel any different than the lettered caps. I am a touch typist but I still need to occasionally look at the keys for special characters - especially since I switch out keyboards on an almost daily basis. I personally would never buy an Otaku keyboard.
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To be fair, some people just don't like Topre's. I'm starting to become one of them after getting the Filco Brown. I like the non-sharp spacebar and more tactile feel of the keys
The Topre is less tactile than Filco Brown? On my Filco brown, I can hardly even feel the tactile bump. Only when the key is pressed very slowly do I feel it, even then, it's the tiniest of bumps.
I'm still interested in trying a topre, but I think my ideal switch is the Filco brown(with the quietness) , but with a bit more tactility.
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Maybe I'm using the term 'tactile' wrong, but I define it how the keys feel like as it travels down. The Filco feels like you're actually pushing down a switch, there's a smooth motion all the way down. The Topre has a lot of initial resistance at first, then collapses and feels like you're pushing against a spring, so it gets a bit mushy towards the end. Maybe someone can describe it better than I can.
There's nothing wrong with the way Topre keys feel, but it's pretty different than most keyboards (the key activates the moment the key starts to travel, not halfway through). My only complaint is the spacebar because of it sharp edge and how it's overly stiff on the variable-weight version, although I'm using it now to try and 'wear it in'.
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Maybe I'm using the term 'tactile' wrong, but I define it how the keys feel like as it travels down. The Filco feels like you're actually pushing down a switch, there's a smooth motion all the way down. The Topre has a lot of initial resistance at first, then collapses and feels like you're pushing against a spring, so it gets a bit mushy towards the end. Maybe someone can describe it better than I can.
There's nothing wrong with the way Topre keys feel, but it's pretty different than most keyboards (the key activates the moment the key starts to travel, not halfway through). My only complaint is the spacebar because of it sharp edge and how it's overly stiff on the variable-weight version, although I'm using it now to try and 'wear it in'.
I think you've got it reversed. You make it sound like the Topre is MORE tactile because you can feel when it gets over the hump and activates. It lets you know through feel rather than a click, or just seeing the character pop up on you screen.
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I tried reversing the spacebar. It feels too awkward in that position, like i have to press it down and up at the same time.
The sharp edge has been bothering me especially badly lately because I cut my nails too short and each time I press it, it digs into the side of my finger. So lesson learned: if you own a Topre, don't cut your nails too short!
snerd: Ohh ok, that makes sense. In that case, the Filco has less tactile feel, but more of a solid 'I pressed this key down' feeling.
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The sharp edge has been bothering me especially badly lately because I cut my nails too short and each time I press it, it digs into the side of my finger. So lesson learned: if you own a Topre, don't cut your nails too short!
Hmm, how do you normally press the space bar? The way I catch the space bar with the side of my thumb, nail length wouldn't have much influence. Then again, I don't use that many boards with edgy space bars these days, both Ms and 3000 series Cherry boards are quite uncritical.
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The Topre is less tactile than Filco Brown? On my Filco brown, I can hardly even feel the tactile bump. Only when the key is pressed very slowly do I feel it, even then, it's the tiniest of bumps.
I'm still interested in trying a topre, but I think my ideal switch is the Filco brown(with the quietness) , but with a bit more tactility.
I feel the Topre is more tactile than the Cherry Brown. The tactile bump of the Cherry Brown switch is very subtle, even more subtle than than the Black ALPS on my Dell AT101W.
Cherry Browns are nice for typing - very comfortable, but I personally like the Topre key switches better overall.
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The Topres have a greater dip in force as the tactile indicator, but the Cherry browns have their dip at a more specific point.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4595&d=1253159601)
The Topres drop about 16g over 2mm of travel.
The browns drop about 14g over 1mm of travel.
So the force is actually pretty close, but they feel very different.
Is is easier to miss the bump on the browns - maybe they are less consistent? But very nice once you adjust to them.
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I press it exclusively with my right thumb, but the same way that I gather most people press it (how many different ways are there to push a spacebar?). Although trying it out just now, I think I gravitate towards the bottom of the spacebar for more leverage. I push it against the part where the nail meets the skin (where hang nails usually form).
Yeah, that chart's pretty indicative of how it feels to me. The browns do have a slightly dip, but it's barely noticeable, whereas the Topre has an initial hump you get over before it's smooth sailing all the way until near the end. I love how the black is just a straight line.
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The tactile bump of the Cherry Brown switch is very subtle, even more subtle than than the Black ALPS on my Dell AT101W.
I wouldn't call ALPS blacks' tactile point subtle (esp. simplified; i.e. ABS M1). It practically pulls the chair out from under your fingers.
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Your Topres sound so much like my old Quietkey. The keys have that kind-of "mushy" feel to them, but all have equal resistance to them in addition to a light touch. In addition, the space bar feels more stiff, but that's because of the spring underneath it which is easy to remove if wanted. I'll have to do the nickel test some time so measure the exact resistance.
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I wouldn't call ALPS blacks' tactile point subtle (esp. simplified; i.e. ABS M1). It practically pulls the chair out from under your fingers.
Initially coming off my 84-key PC AT Model F, I could not even feel the tactile point on the Dell AT 101W. It felt almost linear to me compared to the 84-key Model F. I don't believe the ALPS on the Dell AT101W are the same as the ABS M1; I think the AT101W uses complicated Black ALPS.
Since typing on a wide variety of keyboards, I've been able to better discern and appreciate the subtle differences between different key switches.
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I don't believe the ALPS on the Dell AT101W are the same as the ABS M1; I think the AT101W uses complicated Black ALPS.
This is correct. The Dell uses complicated, black ALPS. The M1 uses some variety of fakes (yeah, I said it, FAKE).
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Say it loud and proud man...
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Good news: spacebar feels MUCH better without the spring. Will measure force sometime tomorrow to see how it compares.
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Ok, tested it just now. Without the spring, the activation force went from 70g to 50g.
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But without the spring, I would think the switch will lose it's feel over time, like a regular rubber dome board.
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I think he's talking about an additional spring that the spacebars have. AFAIK, the Topres won't work without the spring underneath the dome, as this is what actuates the capacitive mechanism.
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Yes, the extra spring the spacebar has. Not the one in the dome, which would require disassembling the keyboard instead of just popping the key off.
Removing the spring makes it feel much more in-line with the force required for the other keys. On the all 55g, it wasn't so much of a deal cuz the keys were stiffer, but when you have 45g keys and a 70g spacebar, it feels really off. Now that it's 45g and 50g, it's much closer to what you'd expect.
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Haha, too funny. I didn't stop to think about how the switch worked and the fact that it couldn't work with the spring under the dome removed.
You know I never noticed the spacebar being stiff until I read it here, then I really noticed from then on.
I'll pop mine out at work on Monday and give it a whirl.
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I think he's talking about an additional spring that the spacebars have. AFAIK, the Topres won't work without the spring underneath the dome, as this is what actuates the capacitive mechanism.
that is exactly what i was thinking
until he clarified
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The Dell Quietkey works the same way. When the spring is in the space bar, it feels all mushy.