Post by: jaczac on Mon, 05 September 2016, 17:28:46
Post by: mike52787 on Mon, 05 September 2016, 17:33:38
I picked up a model f awhile back and while its amazingly satisfying to type on, the spacebar is insanely heavy(ie, i ran out of quarters testing the actuation force). Is there any way to make it much lighter? Is it a problem with the stabilizers?Never did it to mine, but you need to bend the stab wire a bit, dont remember how. The XT is a pain in the ass to get back together due to the spacebar as well.
Post by: jaczac on Mon, 05 September 2016, 17:42:30
Post by: y11971alex on Mon, 05 September 2016, 23:01:31
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 06 September 2016, 07:15:52
I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
It is the smaller models with mile-long space bars that are so heavy.
Post by: chyros on Tue, 06 September 2016, 07:31:42
The ****ing stab clips though xD . Oh well, fortunately mine are now fixed :) .I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
In truth, the F122 is near-perfect, it's an absolutely stunning board in every way.
Post by: mike52787 on Tue, 06 September 2016, 13:53:40
except for the fact that mine doesnt work even with an xwhatsitThe ****ing stab clips though xD . Oh well, fortunately mine are now fixed :) .I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
In truth, the F122 is near-perfect, it's an absolutely stunning board in every way.
Post by: chyros on Tue, 06 September 2016, 14:22:45
Why not just use an Orihalcon cable? Ooexcept for the fact that mine doesnt work even with an xwhatsitThe ****ing stab clips though xD . Oh well, fortunately mine are now fixed :) .I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
In truth, the F122 is near-perfect, it's an absolutely stunning board in every way.
Post by: mike52787 on Tue, 06 September 2016, 14:24:17
The controller in mine was ****ed. plus the xwhatsit is cheaper and outputs scancodes from the functioncluster on the leftWhy not just use an Orihalcon cable? Ooexcept for the fact that mine doesnt work even with an xwhatsitThe ****ing stab clips though xD . Oh well, fortunately mine are now fixed :) .I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
In truth, the F122 is near-perfect, it's an absolutely stunning board in every way.
Post by: chyros on Tue, 06 September 2016, 16:12:18
Ah! Yes, that would explain it xD . I'm really not sure why mine doesn't detect all the keys or how to do anything about it Oo .The controller in mine was ****ed. plus the xwhatsit is cheaper and outputs scancodes from the functioncluster on the leftWhy not just use an Orihalcon cable? Ooexcept for the fact that mine doesnt work even with an xwhatsitThe ****ing stab clips though xD . Oh well, fortunately mine are now fixed :) .I measured the Model F spacebar at around 140 to 150 grams. :D
The 122-key terminal is very nice and perhaps even marginally lighter than the Model M space bar.
In truth, the F122 is near-perfect, it's an absolutely stunning board in every way.
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 06 September 2016, 16:54:28
I'm really not sure why mine doesn't detect all the keys or how to do anything about it.
In the main Soarer thread, reply #560 (I memorized it because I have referred people to it so often) wcass gives a clean and simple way to re-program a Soarer's/Teensy. Orihalcon's cables don't have a reset button like a real Teensy, but I think that this may work on them, too.
You can find the complete code list in Soarer's ".docs" (use index.html).
Post by: chyros on Tue, 06 September 2016, 19:38:16
I wouldn't even know where to begin though, they don't even send scancodes Oo .
I'm really not sure why mine doesn't detect all the keys or how to do anything about it.
In the main Soarer thread, reply #560 (I memorized it because I have referred people to it so often) wcass gives a clean and simple way to re-program a Soarer's/Teensy. Orihalcon's cables don't have a reset button like a real Teensy, but I think that this may work on them, too.
You can find the complete code list in Soarer's ".docs" (use index.html).
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 06 September 2016, 21:15:40
I wouldn't even know where to begin though, they don't even send scancodes Oo .
Really? Did you use hid_listen? (also in Soarer's stuff)
Maybe you have some broken traces.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 September 2016, 23:48:32
Post by: mike52787 on Wed, 07 September 2016, 06:09:26
Have you tried a different xwhatsit? I have gotten a bad one. The utility wouldn't even see it. Replaced it, worked like a champ.the utility detects it just fine, but I get no scancodes from the board, and it doesnt even show the keypresses on the matrix in the utility. strange.
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:06:49
Have you tried a different xwhatsit? I have gotten a bad one. The utility wouldn't even see it. Replaced it, worked like a champ.
the utility detects it just fine, but I get no scancodes from the board,
hid_listen sees the Teensy, xwhatsit, whatever, not the keyboard itself. If it sees the controller but no scan codes, then the problem is probably behind the xwhatsit.
I have never soldered in an xwhatsit myself (although I have 2 laying around that are going into projects whenever I get around to them) but I would look at the connections as the first order of business.
Post by: Tangtawan on Wed, 07 September 2016, 14:01:47
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 08 September 2016, 00:35:39
There are youtube videos on how to re assemble it easy, but it requires the use of a thin string or fishing line to hold the space bar flipper in place to reassemble because you have to hook the wire back up to the space bar before assembling the plates.
Post by: ekeppel on Wed, 07 December 2016, 09:39:39
On my XT, I was able to just straighten one of the bends slightly as referred to in previous posts, and it lightened the key right up without any other issues.
However, my AT was a different story for some reason. It seemed that no matter how I tried to bend the wire, it wasn't working for me. When I got the wire bent enough to lighten the feel, then the center portion under the flipper would tend to hold the flipper up cause continuous false triggering - not good. There were probably lots of small bends in the wire from my many previous attempts, which made it hard to get the angles just right.
What I finally ended up doing was widening the two little center wire holders / channels by about 1mm. Just cut off a tiny nibble of each so that the stabilizer doesn't need to bend so much. Then after straightening the stabilizer wire completely straight, reassemble everything. I know that many people use fishing line or similar to hold the flipper while reassembling, but I have found it much simpler to just use a small plastic spudger to hold it in place while installing the pcb.
The photo below is from JBert's spacebar mod post on DT with added highlighting of the little pieces to be removed.
[attach=1]
With the wire allowed to pass nearly straight through from one side of the barrel holder to the other without as much bend, the excessive tension on the key was relieved and the flipper also could lie flat over it as originally designed, i.e. no more false triggering. I was surprised how much difference removing just 1mm of material and straightening the wire made. It's made this keyboard a lot more comfortable for me, that's for sure. Hopefully this post proves useful to someone else who is struggling with a similar situation. :-)
Eric
Post by: need on Thu, 08 December 2016, 12:21:01
I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to share what I did to lighten the spring on my Model F AT recently, since I have not read of anyone else doing this particular mod.that seems so much work :confused:
On my XT, I was able to just straighten one of the bends slightly as referred to in previous posts, and it lightened the key right up without any other issues.
However, my AT was a different story for some reason. It seemed that no matter how I tried to bend the wire, it wasn't working for me. When I got the wire bent enough to lighten the feel, then the center portion under the flipper would tend to hold the flipper up cause continuous false triggering - not good. There were probably lots of small bends in the wire from my many previous attempts, which made it hard to get the angles just right.
What I finally ended up doing was widening the two little center wire holders / channels by about 1mm. Just cut off a tiny nibble of each so that the stabilizer doesn't need to bend so much. Then after straightening the stabilizer wire completely straight, reassemble everything. I know that many people use fishing line or similar to hold the flipper while reassembling, but I have found it much simpler to just use a small plastic spudger to hold it in place while installing the pcb.
The photo below is from JBert's spacebar mod post on DT with added highlighting of the little pieces to be removed.
(Attachment Link)
With the wire allowed to pass nearly straight through from one side of the barrel holder to the other without as much bend, the excessive tension on the key was relieved and the flipper also could lie flat over it as originally designed, i.e. no more false triggering. I was surprised how much difference removing just 1mm of material and straightening the wire made. It's made this keyboard a lot more comfortable for me, that's for sure. Hopefully this post proves useful to someone else who is struggling with a similar situation. :-)
Eric
Post by: ekeppel on Thu, 08 December 2016, 12:27:12
I haven't had an F122 open yet, but hopefully I won't need to, lol. :-X
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 08 December 2016, 12:38:28
I haven't had an F122 open yet, but hopefully I won't need to, lol. :-X
The space bar on the 122-key terminal is standard, same size and shape as the M but with a thinner wire.
Post by: need on Thu, 08 December 2016, 12:39:56
On either the XT or AT, it took me about 30 minutes to pull all the keycaps, open the board up, make adjustments, and then reassemble. I'm not very experienced at it, so I'm sure others can do it a lot faster. Even if it were to take someone a couple of hours, it's worth the effort in my opinon.Back plate needs to be separated right?
I haven't had an F122 open yet, but hopefully I won't need to, lol. :-X
I'm afraid of separating the plates as the foam is starting to disintegrate...
I also saw somewhere said that you need some clamps to hold them together while assembling.
It sounds like a tough process, I'm surprised you can do it in 30minutes. :-\
Post by: ekeppel on Thu, 08 December 2016, 13:37:30
The space bar on the 122-key terminal is standard, same size and shape as the M but with a thinner wire.
Yeah, I'm glad about the F122 space bar, but replacing the foam on one looks like it would be a chore. That thing is such a beast! :eek:
Back plate needs to be separated right?
I'm afraid of separating the plates as the foam is starting to disintegrate...
I also saw somewhere said that you need some clamps to hold them together while assembling.
It sounds like a tough process, I'm surprised you can do it in 30minutes. :-\
Yes, unfortunately, whenever replacing foam on a Model F, the keycaps need to come off, the plates need to be separated, the barrels/flippers are removed, etc. If you use a plastic spudger, you can slide under each barrel and lift them out pretty quickly, setting them in order on your work space, with the flippers still in them. They go back in really quickly that way also - two at a time if you want to use both hands and have some manual dexterity, lol. I think it took maybe 5 minutes to pull all the barrels and flippers in the AT I was working on the other day, and a little less time to put them back in.
For the XT/AT back plate removal, just get 5 or 6 little C-clamps and protect the clamp surfaces with electrical tape so you don't scratch up the top/bottom plates. You don't need much pressure at all on the clamps. After clamping around the edges, bend the single locking tab back a little so that the top plate will be free to slide out of the holding tabs. Put the keyboard on end with the top plate in position to slide down, then placing a wooden block on the end of the top plate, give it a few good taps and it will move down and be released from the holding tabs. From there, it's easy to lay it down and carefully support the assembly with a thick book on each end (or a nice wooden jig as some folks have). Now remove the clamps, and lift off the back plate. If you are just adjusting the space bar, you can leave the barrels and everything in place, being careful not to disturb anything, and just use a thin tool like a credit card or spudger to hold the space bar flipper in place initially while installing the back plate.
I made my own replacement foam out of kitchen shelf liner and a 1/2" hole saw bit that I sharpened into a hollow punch on a grinder, lol. I think the shelf liner was about 1mm thick or so. If I were to do it over again, I would buy a cheap punch set at Harbor Freight and use a slightly smaller punch so that the barrels fit more snugly in the holes to begin with.
It could be that my AT had a poorly bent top plate, but no matter what I did, a single or double layer of foam over the entire board didn't make the center rows of barrels as tight as the top and bottom. Even with two layers of foam, the top and bottom rows would be nice and tight, but the rows to the center would be slightly loose. Looking at the side profile of the top plate attached to the bottom plate, it was obvious on that the gap increased toward the center of the board, being the biggest right about where the center row of keys would lie.
To combat this, I put a single layer of shelf liner over the entire board, another layer over just the middle three rows, and then a third layer over the center row only. It worked beautifully and the entire keyboard has a nice solid barrels with nice tight keys. The pitch is now the same from the top of the keyboard to the bottom as well.
In addition, building up layers on only those rows that needed it made reassembly easier. In fact it was much easier than when I had tried just two layers on the entire board. This makes sense due to a smaller gap at the top and bottom, so adding thickness there was counterproductive and only made it harder to clamp and reassemble.
There are already numerous tutorials and threads about how to work on the F, but that's how I've been doing it thus far. Your mileage may vary. ;D
Post by: need on Thu, 08 December 2016, 13:57:23
Quote
Yes, unfortunately, whenever replacing foam on a Model F, the keycaps need to come off, the plates need to be separated, the barrels/flippers are removed, etc. If you use a plastic spudger, you can slide under each barrel and lift them out pretty quickly, setting them in order on your work space, with the flippers still in them. They go back in really quickly that way also - two at a time if you want to use both hands and have some manual dexterity, lol. I think it took maybe 5 minutes to pull all the barrels and flippers in the AT I was working on the other day, and a little less time to put them back in.
For the XT/AT back plate removal, just get 5 or 6 little C-clamps and protect the clamp surfaces with electrical tape so you don't scratch up the top/bottom plates. You don't need much pressure at all on the clamps. After clamping around the edges, bend the single locking tab back a little so that the top plate will be free to slide out of the holding tabs. Put the keyboard on end with the top plate in position to slide down, then placing a wooden block on the end of the top plate, give it a few good taps and it will move down and be released from the holding tabs. From there, it's easy to lay it down and carefully support the assembly with a thick book on each end (or a nice wooden jig as some folks have). Now remove the clamps, and lift off the back plate. If you are just adjusting the space bar, you can leave the barrels and everything in place, being careful not to disturb anything, and just use a thin tool like a credit card or spudger to hold the space bar flipper in place initially while installing the back plate.
I made my own replacement foam out of kitchen shelf liner and a 1/2" hole saw bit that I sharpened into a hollow punch on a grinder, lol. I think the shelf liner was about 1mm thick or so. If I were to do it over again, I would buy a cheap punch set at Harbor Freight and use a slightly smaller punch so that the barrels fit more snugly in the holes to begin with.
It could be that my AT had a poorly bent top plate, but no matter what I did, a single or double layer of foam over the entire board didn't make the center rows of barrels as tight as the top and bottom. Even with two layers of foam, the top and bottom rows would be nice and tight, but the rows to the center would be slightly loose. Looking at the side profile of the top plate attached to the bottom plate, it was obvious on that the gap increased toward the center of the board, being the biggest right about where the center row of keys would lie.
To combat this, I put a single layer of shelf liner over the entire board, another layer over just the middle three rows, and then a third layer over the center row only. It worked beautifully and the entire keyboard has a nice solid barrels with nice tight keys. The pitch is now the same from the top of the keyboard to the bottom as well.
In addition, building up layers on only those rows that needed it made reassembly easier. In fact it was much easier than when I had tried just two layers on the entire board. This makes sense due to a smaller gap at the top and bottom, so adding thickness there was counterproductive and only made it harder to clamp and reassemble.
There are already numerous tutorials and threads about how to work on the F, but that's how I've been doing it thus far. Your mileage may vary. ;D
Thanks a lot for sharing your method. Right now I'm too lazy to do that much work for just the spacebar, but I'll eventually get to it... ^-^
I'm wondering why IBM made it that heavy at the first place, especially for a button to be clicked so often. It just doesn't make much sense to me.
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 08 December 2016, 14:13:12
I'm wondering why IBM made it that heavy at the first place, especially for a button to be clicked so often. It just doesn't make much sense to me.
The mile-long space bar on the small Fs is ridiculous. The refurb project is tedious but if you have moderate skills you can do it.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948)