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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: djones on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:23:01

Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: djones on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:23:01: As anyone who knows 67+ keyboards knows, the brown cherries on the MX11800 are not like brown cherries on the filcos-- the filcos seem a bit stiffer at both the initial pressdown and at the "bump-point". And IIRC the kinesis ergo felt more like the filcos than the mx11800's cherries. Is this simply because of the age of the MX11800? Or were brown cherries manufactured differently back then?

I ask because I've tried maybe a half-dozen brown cherries and the only one I've felt comfortable for an extended period of time is the mx11800's (which I now own 8 of). I'd like to find a smaller (tenkeyless) board with similar feel but cannot find one.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:30:50: I think it has to do a lot with the keycaps and switch mounting. Cherry-made 'boards have PCB-mounted switches and PBT or POM keycaps. Filcos have plate-mounted switches and (probably) PVC caps. The combination of all this changes the feel of the switch. Personally, I find Cherry-made 'boards to be more tactile and a little lighter. For the record, all of my Cherry brown 'boards were made in the last two years.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:31:37: I have gone through a similar experience. Most people will tell you that it probably has to do with the difference between PCB and plate mounting. I generally prefer the PCB mounted ones too compared to the Filcos.

On the other hand there is also a rumor that the brown and black MX switches were slightly changed __somehow__ in the 90s. There are a few Korean posts on kbdmania or otd discussing this. Personally I am not sure if this is true, but I also feel a difference between old and new Cherry blacks.

I believe Sandy also has a picture comparing two slightly different brown MX stems. One looks like Caramel and one like chocolate. Confusing, confusing! But nowhere near as confusing as ALPS business.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:40:01: I think that's just part evolution. They might use a slightly different plastic composition now than back then, maybe they use a little more dye, etc. That kind of stuff happens. I don't think they fundamentally changed the switch, though. XsPhat had talked to a rep from Cherry one time, and they had told him that that the switches they used for the Cherry-made 'boards were made in a different factory than the switches that are sold to third parties (like Filco). That's probably a bunch of crap, though. It doesn't really make any sense.

I will say this, though. The Cherry browns in my Filcos feel almost linear compared to the SPOS Cherry 'board sitting right next to it.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: sixty on Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:57:12: Quote from: itlnstln;150104

I will say this, though. The Cherry browns in my Filcos feel almost linear compared to the SPOS Cherry 'board sitting right next to it.

Exactly!
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: spolia optima on Mon, 11 January 2010, 16:09:05: Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry

1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.

1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.

Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm

It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.

edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: spolia optima on Mon, 11 January 2010, 16:18:54: I'd also like to add that I'm a big fan of the "tea axis" name. It sounds a lot more attractive and inviting than "brown cherry".
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 11 January 2010, 16:23:59: Quote from: spolia optima;150114
Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry

1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.

1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.

Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm

It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.

edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.

For the record, there is no difference in color of the stem between my Filco and the Cherry SPOS. As far as color of the stem goes, I am leaning to simple evolution of the switch through slight changes in materials and dye amounts/materials.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 11 January 2010, 16:28:04: Perhaps ripster would be kind enough to take a picture of the keystems from his SPOS and one he got from DataCal (it would be better if he had one from a Filco, but no need to tear apart one just for this) to see if there is any difference in molding. I suspect not, though. I would imagine the mounting and keycap materials provide all the difference in feel.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: spolia optima on Mon, 11 January 2010, 17:21:21: Quote from: itlnstln;150119
For the record, there is no difference in color of the stem between my Filco and the Cherry SPOS. As far as color of the stem goes, I am leaning to simple evolution of the switch through slight changes in materials and dye amounts/materials.

But there is a difference in feeling, you say?
My ignorance of Cherry's manufacturing history is almost 100%. All I know about the company is that they make a variety of keyswitches, and that their logo is super cute.

That said, I realize that the tea switches in my Compaq 11800 are noticeably lighter (in color) than in my G86 SPOS. Since both boards are made by Cherry, the difference probably lies in the generation/factory/production run- rather than separate switches for OEM/3rd party.

One might say that the tea axis debate is ad nauseam around here. There are also n00bz like me, who haven't heard enough of this discussion and must be educated! It would be nice to sit down and interview someone with the company- a frank discussion about the MX. Just the facts, ma'am.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 11 January 2010, 17:38:49: Quote from: spolia optima;150114
Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry

1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.

1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.

Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm

It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.

edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.

I was about to point this out. Back in Geekhack's early days, xsphat made a thread about a conversation he had with a Cherry employee who told him that Cherry used different switches compared with the ones that they sold to other people. I don't think he found out the specifics though.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:54:49: Tea stems? Looks more like coffee nubs or choco-pluses to me.

I don't know if this means that the mounting plays a big role in how a switch feels, but I've noticed that my Choco-Plus Filco feels and sounds different after I switched keyboard trays. I just replaced my old keyboard tray with something much sturdier. I was expecting the keyboard to feel a little different since it'd be more stable, but I was surprised at how it actually sounds different now.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: majestouch on Mon, 11 January 2010, 21:09:30: The color of Cherry stems varies quite a bit from lot to lot, regardless of who they're making them for. The level of quality control required to keep the dye consistent between lots is apparently not of concern to Cherry. Any perceived differences in Cherry switches of the same model could be due to all sorts of variables mentioned by other folks here, but the color hasn't anything to do with it as far as I'm aware.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: SCTony on Mon, 11 January 2010, 22:35:00
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 12 January 2010, 01:22:29: Quote from: ripster;150202
Two Filco keys. If you can't detect a difference your monitor is crap.

I see a difference. They misspelled Esc on the one on the left.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 12 January 2010, 02:05:00: I was feeling inadequate until SCTony posted his pic. Inadequacy is a double whammy when it's instigated by ripster.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 12 January 2010, 03:27:09: Quote from: ripster;150174
I'd rather spread rumors. I think the BEST Cherry Browns are sold to the Germans. Just like the Germans like to steal the best beach spots at International Resorts. This is why they will never sell Cherry Reds to Americans.

Rubbish.

Browns are sold exclusively to those wimps overseas. Germans get clears instead. Experience gained in the daily fight with stiff keyboard switch resistance gives Germans that decisive edge in brawls over the best beach spots at international resorts.

German, US vacationer discussing beach towel placement.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 12 January 2010, 05:30:22: The big guy there needs to slow down on the twinkies.

(http://3putt.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/twinkie.jpg)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: djones on Tue, 12 January 2010, 06:22:17: So, what I've learned from this thread is:
1) The switches are the same, but their mounting is different.
a) The different in color is natural variance in the manufacturing process.
b) No it isn't, legos!
c) Your monitor sucks.
2) Their mounting are the same, but the switches are slightly different
a) And the better ones are sold to germans (never mind which one is 'better')
b) No they aren't.
c) Yes they are.

I am so glad we settled all this once and for all.:party:

Quote from: hyperlinked;150232
I see a difference. They misspelled Esc on the one on the left.

rofl
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: meltie on Tue, 12 January 2010, 08:28:24: @MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES. That is, in addition to my Compaq MX11802 that I bought on ebay Germany. I will compare them as soon as the Filco arrives, to see if I agree on the theory of switch deviance.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 09:36:06: Quote from: meltie;150280
@MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES. That is, in addition to my Compaq MX11802 that I bought on ebay Germany. I will compare them as soon as the Filco arrives, to see if I agree on the theory of switch deviance.

You couldn't get a Filco from The Keyboard Company in the UK? It's still not Germany, but at least they're in Europe.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 12 January 2010, 09:47:04: Quote from: meltie;150280
@MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES.

Buy a Cherry-made keyboard instead?
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:00:21: I guess that's real point. It's not the switch, specifically, you're buying, it's the keyboard. The keyboard is made in Taiwan even though the switch is made in Germany. Hell, even with Cherry-made 'boards, there's no guarantee that it'll be made in Germany. I have one made in the Czech Republic and one made in the US.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:16:35: Quote from: itlnstln;150292
You couldn't get a Filco from The Keyboard Company in the UK? It's still not Germany, but at least they're in Europe.

After shipping, taxes, fees and whatnot, it's about the same (obscene) price. But Elite has them in stock most of the time, Keyboardco doesn't.

I'm in the same boat as Meltie, been waiting for a Filco with browns for weeks. Apparently USPS' carrier pidgeons could use some workout on blacks.

Quote from: ch_123;150293
Buy a Cherry-made keyboard instead?

You can't get ANY board with browns in Germany, probably all Europe even. Cherry boards here have blues, blacks or clears.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:17:58: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;150300
You can't get ANY board with browns in Germany, probably all Europe even. Cherry boards here have blues, blacks or clears.

It's nearly impossible to find keyboards with Cherry clears in the US, so there seems to be some region-specific switches. (Excepting the Deck, of course).
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:26:51: Obviously they feel supersoft browns are only suitable for those degenerated wimps in the U.S. and Japan, while Europeans can deal with some resistance.

German geekhackers should gang together and raid the Cherry factory!
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:31:52: MX11800 vs. current Filcos is a difference of several years. Tooling for the switches might have been replaced somewhen. Like new injection molds and new spring fabrication. Cherry is constantly working on cutting costs. Also, the tolerances in the switch specificationes are rather high.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:41:37: In the disc golf world, as molds for discs break, wear out, etc. and those molds are replaced, discs of the same type will fly slightly differently due to the slight variations in replacement molds (or even different plastic mixes). I think this might be the case with Cherry (and pretty much anything made out of molded plastic). Even though the design is essentially the same, slight variations in additional/replacement molds or the blend of plastic that they use, while undectable to the eye, could make a detectable difference in feel or sound. I don't think they actively make different switches, but I do think there might be slight variances in switches made at different times.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: meltie on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:49:41: Actually, Elitekeyboards is even cheaper, especially since I also wanted to buy a HHKB Pro 2, a Fukka and some accessories.

I even mailed Cherry about purchasing a board with browns in Germany, they referred me to their distributor keybo.de. I contacted keybo, and they told me all I could get was clears.

Also waiting for a black US-layout USB G80-3000 with blues to be available in Germany, though. I think the way they make products available in one market and hardly obtainable in the other is irrational.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 10:51:09: Quote from: ripster;150312
Faulty logic runs rampant here.

Not to say that I'm not personally guilty of it, but this is exactly the problem. Logic and business don't mix. I see it everyday.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 12 January 2010, 11:14:22: Quote from: kishy;150322
eBay seller says keyboard clicks.

K: "is it loud?"
Seller: "oh no, it's nearly silent."

;D
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:03:55: Quote from: ripster;150197
Conspiracy!
Show Image
(http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/173856/87_20fat_20guy_20in_20a_20little_20beach.jpg)

Note that every single Lego I own is precisely color matched. For Majestouch to be correct that implies the Danish are more precise than Germans. This we know is not true. Therefore the Germans vary the color only for their best Cherry keys. Which they reserve for themselves the greedy bastards.

the first thing I thought of was the Boomer from L4D
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:10:40: I can't decide if the guy on the beach is him:

(http://www.sloshspot.com/photos/blog/full/photo_1242617851.jpg)

or him:

(http://www.vosibilities.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/beer_belly.jpg)

Either way, all of these guys are about to give birth to triplets.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:56:14: He doesn't count; he doesn't have a beer gut.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 16:45:18: Quote from: ripster;150387
So.... using DEDUCTIVE reasoning the colors are different but I can't see anything that could be causing the switch to feel any different.

You had better look at the tactile bumps on the stems again. I can see a difference that is almost as obvious as the color that would explain why the Cherry-made 'board is more tactile.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 12 January 2010, 16:48:25: Those 2 came from completely different molds. Check the notch on the stems, one is on top, one on bottom. Also the the dark brown (Cherry board) stems are much sharper on the edges.

Those springs are slightly different.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 12 January 2010, 16:54:48: Your Filco right arrow key should have less than 1% of it's useful life gone, so I think the wear from use isn't the difference. And you can see sharp edges on areas that will never have any wear such as where the key seats on the stem, that's a sharp edge on the Cherry board switch and a dull one on the Filco.

Maybe one batch was made during Oktoberfest.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/fastestsquirrel/Oktoberfest.jpg)

OH and great find BTW Ripster, nice work!
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 12 January 2010, 17:00:40: Quote from: ripster;150387
There IS a difference. See it?
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7290&stc=1&d=1263335214)
It would seem Filcos use old stock then, as the upper one is what Cherry switch stems traditionally looked like. Apparently they had to redo the entire stem at some point - I wouldn't even be sure whether it still is the same material. The seams are much more obvious, too.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 12 January 2010, 17:04:19: Well, there are at least 3 variations of Cherry browns.

The Filco with the notch on the top of the stem
The Cherry SPOS with the notch on the bottom of the stem
The Compaq MX11800 has no notch in the stem
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 12 January 2010, 17:26:32: Oh dear god, this is worse than Alps...

Do you know what are simple? Buckling Springs.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 12 January 2010, 17:30:40: I mean in terms of construction. The subtle differences between the different part numbers is something of an arcane art, but the actual buckling spring mechanism itself has remained entirely unchanged since 1985.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: djones on Tue, 12 January 2010, 20:54:28: uuuh, am I the only one who thinks the springs look different?
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 12 January 2010, 21:40:08: Quote from: djones;150435
uuuh, am I the only one who thinks the springs look different?

Dude, you gotta let me know what you're smoking. Its definitely working a lot better than anything I'm using :P.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 12 January 2010, 23:18:42: Quote from: ripster;150387

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7290&stc=1&d=1263335214)

Is there any chance that the top stem is just well-used? This comparison reminds me of fjord that I once saw, then saw again 25,000 years later.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 13 January 2010, 03:36:19: MX8100 board has notch at the bottom of the key, just like the G86 SPOS board.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:07:05: Quote from: spolia optima;150447
Is there any chance that the top stem is just well-used? This comparison reminds me of fjord that I once saw, then saw again 25,000 years later.

No. If you look closely, the structure is different. The top edge of the tactile bump is shorter than the Filco switch. Wearing down the bump is one thing, but the top edge wouldn't get longer, only shorter. The dark brown switch is a little closer to the clears than the light brown switch.

Damnit! I knew I was wasn't just imagining a difference between the Filco and the Cherry.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:08:51: Quote from: ripster;150415
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7293&stc=1&d=1263342556)

Spoila, the differences I was speaking of are a little more obvious in this pic.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: sandy55 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:17:59: Quote from: ripster;150443
12 windings - standard for Blues and Browns.

Don't know exact method counting windings.

few examples of springs of Blues on different boards )
(http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/cherry_mx_blue/sei-maple_spring2.jpg)
(http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/cherry_mx_blue/sp_ls_oths.jpg)
(http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/cherry_mx_blue/t-s-m-hf_1.jpg)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:24:28: Quote from: elbowglue;150466
MX8100 board has notch at the bottom of the key, just like the G86 SPOS board.

My board has many nothches - the head board on my bed that is!

I guess that explains why my bed springs are also quite worn. :)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:25:40: Quote from: ripster;150506
Keyboards are different. Switch is essentially the same within manufacturing tolerances.

Yeah, but those tolerances are enough to give one run of switches a noticably bigger tactile bump than another. Looking at the pics, it looks like they changed several things in the stem mold. For one, they added/removed (depending on which one is newer) an extra "lip" at the top of the tactile part on the switch from the Cherry 'board.

BTW, thanks for taking those pics, ripster.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:26:12: Quote from: maxlugar;150510
My board has many nothches (the head board on my bed that is!)

Strong work, but blow up dolls don't count.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:28:57: Quote from: itlnstln;150512
Strong work, but blow up dolls don't count.

Mostly from Cherries (blue, brown, pink, whatever) :)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:31:57: Quote from: maxlugar;150513
Mostly from Cherries (blue, brown, pink, whatever) :)

LOL. I'm glad you don't discriminate.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: spolia optima on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:34:35: Well I'll be damned.
What should they be called?
how about "Original Cherry Brown (Type A)" for the light brown one
and "Genuine Cherry Brown (Type 1)" for the dark one.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:42:45: Quote from: spolia optima;150516
Well I'll be damned.
What should they be called?
how about "Original Cherry Brown (Type A)" for the light brown one
and "Genuine Cherry Brown (Type 1)" for the dark one.

Let's just keep it simple and call them "Cherry browns." We don't need any ALPS-like confusion.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:53:10: Quote from: ripster;150520
BTW - somebody should pull a key on their 2009 Cherry Corp keyboard and see what's shipping now. Wouldn't surprise me if it's the light brown one.

This. I might do this when I go home tonight. Either way, it's minor mold changes due to replacement, wearing out of the molds, etc. I am sure you can find these differences in almost any switch if you compare two that were made, say, five years apart.

Basically, what I have learned from this is that its probably not Cherry keyboards feeling more tactile because of some magic manufacturing practice, but due to switches from a different molding run. Therefore, any Cherry-based keyboard could have different feeling switches from another simply based on what run of swithces they were sold at the time of manufacture. That said, there could be a run of Filcos in the future that might feel more/less tactile than Cherry-made 'boards, and more/less tactile than a Filco of the same model made a year or two later.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Wed, 13 January 2010, 11:24:32: Studied all Cherry catalogs I could find online today, both English and German. Blacks, blues, clears, but not a bit of browns. Looks like they consider browns some strange stepkind they'd rather hide.

Or they've been discontinued long ago. So Filco most likely purchases clears from Cherry and ships them to a secret camp, where a thousand Chinese slave workers paint stems brown, file off the tactile nipple a bit and squeeze springs till they're worn.
Yes, that must be it.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:08:56: Funny thing is, if you download the MX keyswitch datasheet, there's a force displacement graph for browns but not clears.

Interestingly, while all the G80 POS boards use browns, they keep very quiet about that and don't state it anywhere. Makes sense, yeah.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:20:35: Figuring out Cherry is an excercise in futility. Between the incomprehensible keyboard model numbers and what switches are still in production and which one aren't, who knows what the Hell they are doing over there?
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:29:43: Quote from: spolia optima;150516
Well I'll be damned.
What should they be called?
how about "Original Cherry Brown (Type A)" for the light brown one
and "Genuine Cherry Brown (Type 1)" for the dark one.

Just one more observation:

The light brown Cherries seem to have a different accent, more like White ALPS, er, um... I mean "sound" than the dark brown Cherries (unless they choose to sound different)

At least that's my understanding as quoted from a reliable Democrat member of the US Congress :)

P.S. Just to be clear I like em all, White ALPS, Black ALPS, well worn Model Ms, but especially Brand New Pink Cherries - they're the most fun to break in! You know what I mean Sly??? :)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 13:02:20: I love brand new, pink Cherries. Keep 'em cu... err... coming, max!
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 13:09:54: Quote from: itlnstln;150578
I love brand new, pink Cherries. Keep 'em cu... err... coming, max!

Sadly, I am forced to pass the torch to you Sly.

I'm a married man!
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 13:35:02: Quote from: ripster;150589
Just to keep beating this into the ground for all you conspiracy theorists.

You keep beating this into the ground rip and me and Sly will continue to pound on our never-before-used "virgin" Cherries (keyboards) until they're sufficiently broken in.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 13:38:36: Quote from: spolia optima;150516
Well I'll be damned.
What should they be called?
how about "Original Cherry Brown (Type A)" for the light brown one
and "Genuine Cherry Brown (Type 1)" for the dark one.

Don't make me reach for my shotgun...
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 13 January 2010, 14:08:34: Quote from: ch_123;150595
Don't make me reach for my shotgun...

You Europeans are allowed to legally own firearms? :)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Wed, 13 January 2010, 14:15:01: Not that anybody would care... but my Filco with browns (genuine, type 1, hand-painted stems) arrived today. Sadly I don't have any type A switches for comparison, but I can tell mine feel smooth as butter. :becky:
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: djones on Wed, 13 January 2010, 15:10:50: I'm going to try transplanting the clearly weaker springs from the Type A Tea Switches (TM) specifically manufactured for german markets, in one of my mx11800's to a filco to see if makes a difference.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 15:33:04: Adventurous. I like that. Defintely report back on that.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 13 January 2010, 16:06:05: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;150534
Studied all Cherry catalogs I could find online today, both English and German. Blacks, blues, clears, but not a bit of browns. Looks like they consider browns some strange stepkind they'd rather hide.
Doesn't mean much. Cherry reds are also not in the .pdfs but are a current product.

Quote from: ripster;150589
For you Vintage folks I recommend the 3-0.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7307&stc=1&d=1263410682)
Those numbers are most likely injection mold numbers identifying the chamber the part was made in. Multiple stems are shot in a single mold. When a mold gets old faulty chambers can be closed, for ex.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 16:17:07: Looking at QWERTERs Clinic (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm), I think, like ripster, that the light brown one is a newer revision (assuming he pulled the stems from the older Cherry 'boards at the top of the page; at the very least, this page has been up for some time and these are certainly older stems). The one's on QWERTER's Clinic look like the darker one. That said, one might also deduct the following:

- There are multiple molds for the same color switch. It has nothing to do with age, per se, but where/what mold the part was made in.

- Cherry, in fact, does make some switches from a certain factory/mold that it uses internally, and another factory/mold that uses to make switches to sell to third parties.

- There is one part (which would have to include the switch case) that might be better for PCB mounting and one for plate mounting, even though they are interchagable (this is probably not the case but just some conspiracy-theory BS I came up with)

In either case, I don't think any spec differences were necessarily intentional, even though there are some notable differences in design. While not necessarily verifiable, it does make the sales persons explaination given to XsPhat some time ago seem at least somewhat reasonable.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Wed, 13 January 2010, 16:33:31: Quote from: itlnstln;150642

- Cherry, in fact, does make some switches from a certain factory/mold that it uses internally, and another factory/mold that uses to make switches to sell to third parties.

Maybe one type is made by Cherry Europe, the other by Cherry USA. Then it would make sense.

Quote from: itlnstln;150642

- There is one part (which would have to include the switch case) that might be better for PCB mounting and one for plate mounting, even though they are interchagable (this is probably not the case but just some conspiracy-theory BS I came up with)

As far as I know, switch cases for PCB mounting have two additional fixation pins.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 16:45:34: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;150649
As far as I know, switch cases for PCB mounting have two additional fixation pins.

That's true, I forgot about that.
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 16:47:11: Quote from: ripster;150650
Using your guys reasoning this could imply anything but smells like a Asian conspiracy.

I guess that's pretty much the point. You can pretty much come up with all types of bull**** if you really want, but what fun would it be otherwise?
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 17:28:35: Quote from: maxlugar;150602
You Europeans are allowed to legally own firearms? :)

I think shotguns are the only thing we're allowed to own, and even at that, you really don't want to be seen around with one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carthy)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: SCTony on Wed, 13 January 2010, 22:26:29: Quote from: ricercar;150238
Inadequacy is a double whammy when it's instigated by ripster.
Man! Why you want to pick on eggster...er, ripster? (:lol: i forgot to put the smiley)
Title: Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 14 January 2010, 14:44:17: Quote from: SCTony;150726
Man! Why you want to pick on eggster...er, ripster?

ripster and I are dude-mates. He's special... of like a .38 special ... made of Lego (http://www.geekologie.com/2009/12/man_gets_swatteamed_over_lego.php).