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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: OldBoy on Sun, 17 January 2010, 18:55:11

Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: OldBoy on Sun, 17 January 2010, 18:55:11: I am debating whether to buy a used IBM thinkpad T42 or T43
or an HHKB Pro 2 for the same price. I realize that this
is comparing apples and oranges, but I would appreciate it
if someone who has used both on a daily basis would comment
on the qualitative aspects of the following questions:
1.) Forgetting about price and the fact that a thinkpad is a whole system, is the thinkpad keyboard comparable to
the HHKB in quality? What differences have you experienced?
2.) If not, can you comment on the qualitative difference that might make an HHKB with a high-end pointing thingy better value?
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 17 January 2010, 18:57:40: what are you going to be using these devices for?
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 17 January 2010, 19:06:23: I have both a HHKB and one of the newer Thinkpads (T61). The keyboard on my T61 is probably the one keyboard I use the most, and it does the job admirably. Supposedly the older ones were better, but I'd assume that that would be in terms of less flex and possibly somewhat sharper feel, but I wouldn't expect it to be miraculously better than what I have. HHKB is definitely much better, but it's not as if I pine for it every time I use the inbuilt Thinkpad keyboard.

I think the question here is whether you need a laptop, which is something you can only really answer yourself. If you use desktops in work/college etc, your own keyboard/mouse might be a better idea. If you don't already have a laptop, I'd probably veer towards that though.
Title: followup
Post by: OldBoy on Sun, 17 January 2010, 19:17:16: @spolia optima
...for programming, and writing stuff in *tex

I currently have a toshiba (circa 1997) and dell inspiron (circa 2005) laptop,
as well as a dell precision workstation (circa 1998), all of which might benefit from a better keyboard (except maybe the dell notebook). But I'm not adverse to getting another laptop if it also has a good keyboard and would replace the above 3 computers as my main computer.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 17 January 2010, 19:20:25: Oh, in that case I'd go for the Thinkpad. The Thinkpad's keyboard will do you fine. You can always get a HHKB sometime down the line if needs be.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: cheater1034 on Sun, 17 January 2010, 19:54:48: T42/T43 are awfully old now, idk if they'd be good replacements as an every day system anyway.

Plus the t4x is when they still had the external roll cage and i think they had some sort of problems with motherboard flex or something else dangerous because of it. (obviously if the mobo became damaged the whole thing is a brick)

But i also would have an extremely hard time picking a $250 keyboard over a $250 t series - considering the keyboard is way over-priced. (basically, i would pick t42 in good condition > hhkb without a question if someone put them on a table and said take one)

The benefits of an hhkb for programming are perhaps limited anyway, as a programmer/future sw dev myself I'd think it'd be annoying to use fn+ key combos for a bunch of stuff, and the qwerty layout is the same for the keys you use 95% of the time anyway (so it's not really that optimized for programming) - i'd say you use arrow keys a lot to scan through lines of code too (hhkb is missing dedicated arrow keys), a kb w/ arrow keys is a lot more convenient than one with arrow keys linked to some fn+ key combination (2-fingers at a time opposed to 1)

Maybe get a space saving keyboard though, maybe a filco 87-key (brown if you're going for closest to hhkb topre - since they are quiet and take the same amount of force) - plus much cheaper than a hhkb
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 17 January 2010, 20:28:28: Quote from: cheater1034;151647
i'd say you use arrow keys a lot to scan through lines of code too (hhkb is missing dedicated arrow keys), a kb w/ arrow keys is a lot more convenient than one with arrow keys linked to some fn+ key combination (2-fingers at a time opposed to 1)

Actually, I'd say the ability to not use my normal arrow keys is the single most effective time saving "HHKB shortcut." I don't actually have a HHKB, but I have keys on my Filco mapped to do something similar to the HHKB's arrow shortcuts.

It's not that it really saves you that much time in of itself, but the short amount of time it does save you helps you keep your train of thought going when you're just streaming code straight out of your head and every small distraction is another chance for you to get off track.

I'm not sure if I'd want a minified keyboard, but I do find some of the innovations in the minified keyboards very handy in my full 104-key sized one.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 17 January 2010, 20:44:54: I would get the hhkb and use it on the main machine. I say this only because you have a lot of notebooks already.
I like to have at least one desktop at home.
Using notebooks all day (without ext. monitor and keyboard) is really not ergonomic. I like to sit with my neck straight up directly in front of monitor, and my hands resting in a natural position below.
It's evident when you've spent 10 hours in front of a notebook at work/school, then switch to the desktop at home. It's always a big relief for me.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: tamasrepus on Sun, 17 January 2010, 21:53:52: I have a both a T42p (that I don't use anymore) and a HHKB Pro 2.

T40 series keyboards' quality vary depending on the manufacturer (NMB, Chicony, Alps, etc). You need to remove the keyboard, get the part number on the underside label, and look it up to see what you have. I don't recall which manufacturer's keyboards were good... you should look up threads over at forum.thinkpads.com (http://forum.thinkpads.com). I wasn't able to get one of the better ThinkPad keyboards.

The HHKB Pro 2, is, well, the HHKB Pro 2. It's overpriced, yet still completely awesome.

My opinion is that the HHKB Pro 2 is a lot better than the ThinkPad keyboard. While the ThinkPad keyboard is good, and quite likely one of the best laptop keyboards, it's still a laptop keyboard.

The problem with the T40 series is that they're very old, and upgrade options are limited (DDR1 RAM is expensive, and it's difficult to find fast PATA drives). Since they're so old, manufacturing defects have been popping up that obviously aren't covered by long-expired warranties and can be expensive/risky to fix (i.e. discrete graphics soldering problems, motherboard cracking especially w.r.t USB, etc).

If I was in your position, I'd probably save the money for a newer, faster computer.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: In Stereo! on Mon, 18 January 2010, 02:31:31: I'm pretty much in tune with the posters above. The Thinkpad keyboards (+trackpoint) are definitly the best input devices found on laptops and the reason I'd never buy non Thinkpad laptops; a trackpad is barely usable and you'll always need an external input device (goodbye portability). I think a Thinkpad laptop would be a good choice if it would replace your numerous laptops youre use now. But as said before, the T40 series is a little outdated and you must definitly go at least for a T60 or R60.

As for the HHKB: I wouldn't regard it as a smartbuy, really. Something like a Cherrry G80-1800 has a much better price/performance ratio IMO.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 18 January 2010, 07:17:45: Quote from: In Stereo!;151698
Something like a Cherrry G80-1800 has a much better price/performance ratio IMO.

A man after my own heart. Spread the word, disciple, spread the word.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 18 January 2010, 08:48:47: Quote from: ripster;151661
I was gonna say save up for a Apple Tablet.

Show Image
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/12/500x_500x_500x_apple-tablet-contest.jpg)

What a brilliant idea. A mousepad with built-in display. I'd pay $50 for that.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 18 January 2010, 09:14:51: That's funny. Speaking of mouspads... Is that a UN mousepad I spy in that pic?
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: In Stereo! on Mon, 18 January 2010, 14:09:37: Quote from: Rajagra;151768
What a brilliant idea. A mousepad with built-in display. I'd pay $50 for that.

Usually they are priced a little more than that.
http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?lang=en&pid=95
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 18 January 2010, 16:38:15: RE: G80-1800 Where does one get such a mythical beast, and how many platinum and gold pieces will it cost me? :)
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 January 2010, 08:12:47: Korea and other parts of Asia. Money won't get you one of these 'boards. It takes women. Women and your finest meats and cheeses.

Not these:
(http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo-thumbs-2/A8AXF1.jpg)

Actually, there was an eBay auction in Germany for 10 G80-1800s for 10 Euros. I would have jumped on them, but they had ISO layouts and, probably, black switches.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 20 January 2010, 12:35:22: Imagine all the dirt and grime and scratches that would get on that mousepad...
Title: Thank You!
Post by: OldBoy on Sun, 24 January 2010, 08:41:13: I want to thank everyone who responded for their expert and sage advice, as well as their good humor.
It helped me consider many things that I wouldn't have otherwise considered.
Thank you! This board is an amazing resource!
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: elservo on Tue, 26 January 2010, 02:03:32: What did you decide to get? Both? If you didn't order both, then I don't think Geekhack did their job!
Title: Thanks
Post by: OldBoy on Tue, 26 January 2010, 09:59:55: Quote from: elservo;153761
What did you decide to get? Both? If you didn't order both, then I don't think Geekhack did their job!

Thanks for asking elservo. The answer is I'm still not sure, although this thread helped a lot in organizing my thoughts.
It was only a week or so ago that I first realized that I was spending more time with my keyboard than with pencil and paper, and that there were even alternatives to the stock keyboards and mice that one gets.
Of course, I had seen "erognomic keyboards" but it seemed to me that they were not an improvement over the ones I was using, and kind of a gimmick.
So this site has opened my eyes, and there is so much to digest that I think it will take at least a little while longer before I sort it all out.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 26 January 2010, 10:09:14: Quote from: OldBoy;153804
It was only a week or so ago that I first realized that I was spending more time with my keyboard than with pencil and paper

I pretty much forgot how to write with pencil and paper.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: nvarsj on Fri, 29 January 2010, 19:52:44: Quote from: OldBoy;151631

1.) Forgetting about price and the fact that a thinkpad is a whole system, is the thinkpad keyboard comparable to
the HHKB in quality? What differences have you experienced?
2.) If not, can you comment on the qualitative difference that might make an HHKB with a high-end pointing thingy better value?

I use an hhkb2 daily and own a thinkpad x41. So I'm probably close enough... :-)

The thinkpad has the best scissor switch I've ever used. It feels great for a laptop keyboard. (On a semi-related note, I despise my macbook's keyboard.)

Topre/mechanical switches are in a whole other class, and I much prefer typing on a real keyboard. But if you need to get by on a laptop, I don't think anything beats the thinkpad.
Title: IBM ThinkPad keyboard vs. HHKB
Post by: Xuan on Sun, 31 January 2010, 10:36:55: Yesterday I slipped and fell in the stairway with my X31 in the hand, not even a scratch. They're tough.