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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: vaLk on Mon, 18 January 2010, 22:30:37

Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Topre Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Mon, 18 January 2010, 22:30:37
Ya'know, this beauty? (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce&pid=rf_se02b0)

I have a Unicomp Customizer (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html), and I was wondering if a spray paint of some sort existed that could sorta emulate the look of the Realforce's keys (ie. the key would be very dark, but not quite black, and the labels of the keys would stand out in a noticeably darker black).

Quick question if such a thing could happen...if so, I'd totally do it :nerd:
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 18 January 2010, 22:49:58
most people use rit-dye for this kind of thing, and yields excellent results
not sure how a dark gray would turn out, but check the mods section out
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: maxlugar on Mon, 18 January 2010, 23:00:42
Quote from: vaLk;151923
Ya'know, this beauty? (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce&pid=rf_se02b0)

I have a Unicomp Customizer (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html), and I was wondering if a spray paint of some sort existed that could sorta emulate the look of the Realforce's keys (ie. the key would be very dark, but not quite black, and the labels of the keys would stand out in a noticeably darker black).

Quick question if such a thing could happen...if so, I'd totally do it :nerd:


Are you asking if it is possible to paint the keys of a Unicomp Customizer to replicate the keys of a Topre Realforce (I presume you really meant Topre Realforce, not Filco since the Realforce keyboards are made by Topre)

From my perspective, the answer is probably not.  The Topre Realforce key caps use dye sublimation for the labeling and have a very unique texture.  I prefer the feel of the Topre keycaps to just about any other key switch.  Spray painting or coating the Topre keycaps would change the feel of the keys, not in a good way.

I know some geekhackers have successfully dyed their Topre keycaps which probabaly had minmal impact on the texturized feel.

Just my two cents.  I'm sure there are other opinions out there.  By coincidence, I pulled out my Realforce 87U and 23UB keypad to use this evening.  I love the form factor of my HHKB Pro 2 and use it with my Dell D430 when I'm on the road.  The Topre keycaps are the same on both the HHKB and the 87U, but the 87U feels slightly more comfortable than the HHKB Pro 2 - perhaps it's due to the layout or maybe the different key weightings???
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: ocdonkb on Mon, 18 January 2010, 23:07:22
Just in terms of replicating the look of it... sure, you can paint/dye the key cap, but how would you go about coloring the lettering?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Mon, 18 January 2010, 23:15:57
Quote from: AndrewZorn;151927
most people use rit-dye for this kind of thing, and yields excellent results
not sure how a dark gray would turn out, but check the mods section out
Alright, thanks man.
Quote from: maxlugar;151929
Are you asking if it is possible to paint the keys of a Unicomp Customizer to replicate the keys of a Topre Realforce (I presume you really meant Topre Realforce, not Filco since the Realforce keyboards are made by Topre)

From my perspective, the answer is probably not.  The Topre Realforce key caps are use dye sublimation for the labeling and have a very unique texture.  I prefer the feel of the Topre keycaps to just about any other key switch.  Spray painting or coating the Topre keycaps would change the feel of the keys, and not in a good way.

I know some geekhackers have successfully dyed their Topre keycaps which probabaly had minmal impact on the texturized feel.

Just my two cents.  I'm sure there are other opinions out there.  By coincidence, I pulled out my Realforce 87U and 23UB keypad to use this evening.
Crap, I meant Topre >.> ...my bad.  And I'm talking only about replicating the look, not the feel.
Quote from: ocdonkb;151930
Just in terms of replicating the look of it... sure, you can paint/dye the key cap, but how would you go about coloring the lettering?
That what I was wondering...since the labeling on the Customizer is black, I was wondering if I were to dye the key a dark grey, if the black labeling would still stand out.

Does that make it any more clear?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:19:46
Quote from: ripster;151932
See the Rit Dye mod.  This guy's teal came close to the Topre look.  I'd start with a Pearl Gray and see what happens.  Dark blue got so dark according to RicerCar he couldn't see the legend.



Link (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=111455&postcount=302)
Show Image
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz245/iwait4umysweet/VID00011.jpg)
Thanks man :)
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:25:27
Here's a whole thread on the topic: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4962.  It seems that Topre keys work better than others.  The plastic type seems to make a difference as well as the base color of the keys themselves, so YMMV.  The color on the Topres seem to come out more even and richer in the pics I have seen.  Read the thread, and check out some of the results and failures (melted keys, poor color absorbtion, etc.).  If you botch some on accident, you can always buy replacement keys from Unicomp.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: pfink on Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:41:18
Quote from: vaLk;151923
Ya'know, this beauty? (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce&pid=rf_se02b0)

I have a Unicomp Customizer (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html), and I was wondering if a spray paint of some sort existed that could sorta emulate the look of the Realforce's keys (ie. the key would be very dark, but not quite black, and the labels of the keys would stand out in a noticeably darker black).

Quick question if such a thing could happen...if so, I'd totally do it :nerd:

I've used the Charcoal Grey formula from the RIT Dye color mixing chart (1 part Royal Blue + 1 part Black) found here:

http://www.ritdye.com/Create+Custom+Color.9.lasso (http://www.ritdye.com/Create+Custom+Color.9.lasso)

It looks similar to the black on grey of the Topres to me, however I'm not sure how close it actually is because I've only ever seen the Topres in online photos.

I'll post some pictures tonight.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:44:26
I don't think you can melt a Model M key. Those keyboards are tough as nails.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: InSanCen on Tue, 19 January 2010, 16:14:38
Quote from: microsoft windows;152135
I don't think you can melt a Model M key. Those keyboards are tough as nails.


I wonder if ripster is going to sacrifice some vintage IBM plastic in the name of GeekHack science?

Once I get some spares built up, I'll be sure to do a boiling water test on it. I suspect you may be surprised.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 January 2010, 16:18:15
Ripster already did a melt test on a variety of keys.  I couldn't find it off-hand, but the IBM keys could take a lot of heat without melting.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 19 January 2010, 17:32:21
Ripster did boil a Model M key and it made it without a scratch. Filco keys, on the other hand; well those are another story...
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 19 January 2010, 18:45:27
Why couldn't you just stick with beige keys?  I don't need any fancy colors for my keyboards.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: pfink on Tue, 19 January 2010, 19:10:11
Quote from: pfink;152131
I've used the Charcoal Grey formula from the RIT Dye color mixing chart (1 part Royal Blue + 1 part Black) found here:

http://www.ritdye.com/Create+Custom+Color.9.lasso (http://www.ritdye.com/Create+Custom+Color.9.lasso)

It looks similar to the black on grey of the Topres to me, however I'm not sure how close it actually is because I've only ever seen the Topres in online photos.

I'll post some pictures tonight.

OK, here's a pic (sorry, my photography skills aren't very good):

(http://www.soybomb.com/ratpfink/keyboards/GreyOnBlackKeys.jpg)

This was done using the Unicomp sparkly grey keys, you can still see some of the sparkle. I just did the numpad keys using this color when I was experimenting with RIT dye. You might get better results using beige Model M keys.

Now that I'm looking at it it's actually quite a bit lighter than the Topre keys. You can probably get closer to the Topre look by keeping the keys in the dye mix longer, as the longer you keep the keys in the hot dye, the darker they get. Be careful with the timing, though. If you keep them in too long you probably won't be able to see the lettering at all and you'll end up with blank looking keys.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 19 January 2010, 20:35:56
I thought people here liked blank keyboards.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: Santa on Tue, 19 January 2010, 20:36:29
Would dying the keys on a model m with rit dye and then spray painting the case work well?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Tue, 19 January 2010, 20:39:47
Quote from: pfink;152205
OK, here's a pic (sorry, my photography skills aren't very good):


Show Image
(http://www.soybomb.com/ratpfink/keyboards/GreyOnBlackKeys.jpg)



This was done using the Unicomp sparkly grey keys, you can still see some of the sparkle. I just did the numpad keys using this color when I was experimenting with RIT dye. You might get better results using beige Model M keys.

Now that I'm looking at it it's actually quite a bit lighter than the Topre keys. You can probably get closer to the Topre look by keeping the keys in the dye mix longer, as the longer you keep the keys in the hot dye, the darker they get. Be careful with the timing, though. If you keep them in too long you probably won't be able to see the lettering at all and you'll end up with blank looking keys.
Hmmm, that looks like pretty much what I want.  How difficult was this?  And how exactly does this process go?  Do you mix the dye, put it in a boiling water, then sink the keys in it for x amount of time?  I'm very foreign to this, so a simple explanation or if you could link me to a tutorial of some sorts would be great :)
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: Santa on Tue, 19 January 2010, 20:53:35
Quote from: ripster;152222
On a Model M the Rit dye works well for the keys but not the case.

Painting a case with Vinyl Dye Paint (essentially paint with extra acetone to soften the plastic) has been reported to work well for some.  Others report that the paint eventually flakes off (iMav didn't like it).  I think it's a combination of technique and finding the proper paint.  As well as how you treat your keyboard.


hmm well thanks :)

can you find rit dye and vinyl paint in a hardware store?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: pfink on Tue, 19 January 2010, 21:48:42
Quote from: Santa;152223
hmm well thanks :)

can you find rit dye and vinyl paint in a hardware store?


I usually get RIT dye at the drug store and vinyl dye at auto parts stores (I'm in the U.S.)
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: pfink on Tue, 19 January 2010, 21:57:17
Quote from: vaLk;152221
Hmmm, that looks like pretty much what I want.  How difficult was this?  And how exactly does this process go?  Do you mix the dye, put it in a boiling water, then sink the keys in it for x amount of time?  I'm very foreign to this, so a simple explanation or if you could link me to a tutorial of some sorts would be great :)


I used the powder RIT dye and just followed the directions on the box but used half the amount of water that was called for. I was just experimenting on some spare Model M and Unicomp keys using different colors and times after reading about RIT dyeing keys on here. The only ones I'm actually using on any boards are the batch of red Esc keys I did with RIT Crimson liquid dye.

There's a long thread on RIT dyeing keys here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4962&&highlight=rit+dye (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4962&&highlight=rit+dye)
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: pfink on Tue, 19 January 2010, 22:04:50
Quote from: ripster;152222
On a Model M the Rit dye works well for the keys but not the case.

Painting a case with Vinyl Dye Paint (essentially paint with extra acetone to soften the plastic) has been reported to work well for some.  Others report that the paint eventually flakes off (iMav didn't like it).  I think it's a combination of technique and finding the proper paint.  As well as how you treat your keyboard.


The black Dupli-Color vinyl spray that I used on my Space Saver back in August is holding up great, no chipping at all.

The Krylon Fusion for Plastic spray paint that I used on the camouflage Space Saver is starting to flake off in a couple places but I'm not sure if that's because it's inferior paint or because I did four different layers of paint on that board so there's a lot of paint-on-paint rather than paint-on-plastic, which may affect adhesion.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Tue, 19 January 2010, 23:24:45
Quote from: pfink;152232
I used the powder RIT dye and just followed the directions on the box but used half the amount of water that was called for. I was just experimenting on some spare Model M and Unicomp keys using different colors and times after reading about RIT dyeing keys on here. The only ones I'm actually using on any boards are the batch of red Esc keys I did with RIT Crimson liquid dye.

There's a long thread on RIT dyeing keys here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4962&&highlight=rit+dye (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4962&&highlight=rit+dye)
Thanks again, and that brings up a good idea...I should buy some other colors to paint my ESC and WASD keys :P
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: Oqsy on Wed, 20 January 2010, 00:05:03
*FYI, do NOT use the black RIT dye if you want to see the letter labels.  Black dye will very effectively blank your keys.*  

I dyed my model m keys using rit dye, and i promise you that you won't melt the keys as long as you stir the mixture constantly.  Don't be afraid to let the water temp reach and stay at boiling (my dye made NO progress until the mix reached a rolling boil), add some salt to the mix to help colorfastness, and rinse with  CLEAN COLD water when finished.  

Be CERTAIN that your keys are completely clean of any skin oils, dirt, etc. Dirty keys = crappy dye job.  I soaked mine in a mixture of hot water and simple green for 10 mins, rubbed them thoroughly with a cloth, and then soaked them again in a 20:1 water/bleach solution, rinsed, and only handled with rubber gloves until the dying was complete.

As for paint, I used Krylon Fusion Satin White for the outer case, and Rustoleum Industrial Machine Gray for the inner case (the area immediately surrounding the keys that is recessed at the bottom and sticks out from the case at the top).  I prepped thoroughly with the same simple green / scrub / rinse / bleach / rinse regimen mentioned above.  Neither paint has peeled, chipped, or even shown the slightest signs of wear.  My only regret is that the simple green or bleach solution caused my Lock Leds label to begin to peel, so I'm now without a label in that position (I thoroughly removed all adhesive and painted it along with the rest of the case, so it's at least a nice clean look)

I apologize for the novella, but having experienced this recently, I thought I could share some of my experience in this area :D

edit: adding a pic of my keyboard for reference
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/Oqsy/flat_white.jpg)
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Wed, 20 January 2010, 00:22:53
Quote from: Oqsy;152243
I apologize for the novella, but having experienced this recently, I thought I could share some of my experience in this area :D
I really appreciate it :D

And I was also wondering: has anyone here purchased keys from Unicomp?  And if so, what's their rates?  The rates on the keyboards themselves aren't bad ($69 for this keyboard isn't bad at all!), so I don't think just the keys would be too pricey :P
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Wed, 20 January 2010, 00:32:54
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=109506&postcount=274

Hmm...looks like that guy got the affect I'm looking for :D

edit: dang, this guy too! http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=110016&postcount=282
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 20 January 2010, 04:10:28
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;152197
Why couldn't you just stick with beige keys?  I don't need any fancy colors for my keyboards.

(http://annehutchinson.net/images/puritans12.png)

No Christmas you say?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Wed, 20 January 2010, 10:47:00
Quote from: ripster;152248
Well, last year it was $20 for a 104 blank key set.  Pretty reasonable compared to the $30 for Filco and the $68 for Topre (only 60 keys).
Yeah, that sounds just about right.  Now all I need to do is call the guy up :D
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 20 January 2010, 10:50:18
I would use the beige keys over the grey, sparkly ones. You'll probably get a better finish. Oqsy's looks good, but I think the beige ones will turn out a little better. The red keys on pfink's look very well done.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 20 January 2010, 11:00:19
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;152197
Why couldn't you just stick with beige keys?  I don't need any fancy colors for my keyboards.


Such a logicial comment from a sensible young lad.  You keep them coming son...
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Wed, 20 January 2010, 11:16:08
Quote from: itlnstln;152304
I would use the beige keys over the grey, sparkly ones. You'll probably get a better finish. Oqsy's looks good, but I think the beige ones will turn out a little better. The red keys on pfink's look very well done.
Can I buy beige keys from Unicomp?  And if not, where can I acquire some?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Wed, 20 January 2010, 16:10:37
Quote from: ripster;152314
Unicomp has the beige or blacks.
Sweet, thanks.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: InSanCen on Thu, 21 January 2010, 06:24:38
As I have said in another thread, I am getting a set from Unicomp. $20+Shipping.

They are confirmed as PBT by chuck. According to various sources (I always doublecheck wikipedia entries), the melting point is 260°C.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Thu, 21 January 2010, 17:54:42
Hmm, what's "PBT"?  Also:
Quote from: 'InSanCen'
the melting point is 260°C.
Good to know :P
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 21 January 2010, 18:57:34
Quote from: InSanCen;152622
Unicomp [...] are confirmed as PBT by chuck


excellent!
great find :D
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 22 January 2010, 07:26:05
Quote from: vaLk;152859
Hmm, what's "PBT"? Also:Good to know :P

A type of plastic just like PVC or ABS.  The different formulations give the plastic different properties.  A lot of folks around here like PBT and POM (Delrin) becaulse they are harder and more resillient, thus resist wear and "shiny" keys.  The ones we have seen around here, too, are also made a little thicker and heavier which makes the sound lower pitched, in general, and many people find that more pleasant.  The thicker, heavier keys also are better quality.  This is the complaint on Filco keys.  They are thin and made of ABS.  Because of this, they go shiny very quickly and they make a higher-pitched sound when typing.  If you compare a Filco cap to a Cherry cap the quality differences are apparent.
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 22 January 2010, 10:05:07
I wonder how much good caps made of thick ABS would increase manufacturing cost per board. One dollar? More? Less?
Title: Would it be possible to paint keys like the Filco Realforce?
Post by: vaLk on Fri, 22 January 2010, 10:55:16
Quote from: itlnstln;152948
A type of plastic just like PVC or ABS.  The different formulations give the plastic different properties.  A lot of folks around here like PBT and POM (Delrin) becaulse they are harder and more resillient, thus resist wear and "shiny" keys.  The ones we have seen around here, too, are also made a little thicker and heavier which makes the sound lower pitched, in general, and many people find that more pleasant.  The thicker, heavier keys also are better quality.  This is the complaint on Filco keys.  They are thin and made of ABS.  Because of this, they go shiny very quickly and they make a higher-pitched sound when typing.  If you compare a Filco cap to a Cherry cap the quality differences are apparent.
Ah ok, interesting...thanks :)