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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: HaaTa on Sat, 03 December 2016, 23:49:09
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I'm going to leave the analysis to the readers. But really, Cherry, you were so. damn. good. at linear switches.
(https://plot.ly/~haata/266.png) (https://plot.ly/~haata/266/)
This is what we have now for MX Black switches. Notice how it's a bit different. Perhaps this is enough to convince everyone that there really is a difference between older and newer MX Black switches.
(https://plot.ly/~haata/72.png) (https://plot.ly/~haata/72/cherry-mx-black/)
But that's not what this post is about. Take a look, this is a NIB Cherry MX Red RGB switch.
(https://plot.ly/~haata/268.png) (https://plot.ly/~haata/268/cherry-mx-red-rgb/)
What's going on in Cherry's factories?
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Here's a NIB standard Cherry MX Red for comparison.
(https://plot.ly/~haata/88.png) (https://plot.ly/~haata/88/cherry-mx-red/)
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The graph's are really telling. The bar/standards are much lower now since mechanical keyboards aren't the norm and competition is extremely low. Gamer's don't care, they can put out crap and no one bat's an eye. Or maybe it's something to do with their QA or machinery. Besides the well-known material change, but I think it is unlikely that material is the only factor.
How does something like Alps SKCL Green compare graph wise?
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I'm working on measuring some Alps switches, should be ready in the next day or so.
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How does a Gateron or Zealios switch look in comparison? I'm guessing the "jaggies" are artifacts of roughness in the plastic/friction.
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Also, for those not aware, the force curves are sorted.
Gateron (https://plot.ly/~haata/97)
Zealios (https://plot.ly/~haata/146)
All (https://plot.ly/~haata)
Still need to measure more though.
(https://plot.ly/~haata/147.png) (https://plot.ly/~haata/147)
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What's going on in Cherry's factories?
They started focusing on gamer boards, which always prioritize flashy over quality. As such they went from THE company for linear switches to the bottom of the barrel just barely above dell pack in keyboards. They are one of the main reasons even on my custom gaming pcs I never buy gaming branded stuff, been burned before, not again.
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A little discussion of methodology would help. Is this a single press? Are you measuring a statistically significant population or just a single switch? How well used is the vintage switch or is it NIB?
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This has nothing to do with quality control.
They probably just made the stem slightly thinner because that makes the travel feel smoother out of the box. having less contact with the slide housing.
Actuation and release point does NOT have to be together, this has never affected the realistic use case of the switches..
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This has nothing to do with quality control.
I gotta go with tp here. Vintage blacks have had years and years for the places where the plastic parts touch to wear down super smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the "new" cherry switches end up having a graph much like the first after a few decades.
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This has nothing to do with quality control.
I gotta go with tp here. Vintage blacks have had years and years for the places where the plastic parts touch to wear down super smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the "new" cherry switches end up having a graph much like the first after a few decades.
People have reported the same thing with unused vintage black keyboards. That said, it might be interesting to compare with this machine.
I guess this is one of the great keyboard mysteries, like the Alps lubricant xD .
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This has nothing to do with quality control.
I gotta go with tp here. Vintage blacks have had years and years for the places where the plastic parts touch to wear down super smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the "new" cherry switches end up having a graph much like the first after a few decades.
People have reported the same thing with unused vintage black keyboards. That said, it might be interesting to compare with this machine.
I guess this is one of the great keyboard mysteries, like the Alps lubricant xD .
Dont even get me started on alps lube... I dont get it but it works.
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I have a couple questions.
1. What is the difference between a Cherry Red and a Cherry Red RGB? I thought they were the same switch simply with multicolor lights. The RGBs seem to be stiffer and the standard Reds have a much higher actuation point.
2. This is probably for the OP HaaTa- I read your posing about the building of your machine to get these force curves. How do you simulate an actual keystroke? How hard and fast (or slow) the stroke is will affect the measurements. Some people type kind of softly and kind of float the strokes like me (cant stand the clacking sound) and others like to slam the keys down and bottom out. This also subjectively changes the feel as well.
3. Is there any switch with which you found unacceptable variance?
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I guess this is one of the great keyboard mysteries, like the Alps lubricant xD .
Dont even get me started on alps lube... I dont get it but it works.
Would be great if you guys could educate me on this xD.
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1. What is the difference between a Cherry Red and a Cherry Red RGB? I thought they were the same switch simply with multicolor lights. The RGBs seem to be stiffer and the standard Reds have a much higher actuation point.
Top housing plastic is clear (probably polycarbonate, which is a rougher plastic). The bottom housing is this sort of translucent plastic, looks similar to some Gateron switches (pretty sure this is where all the friction is coming from).
2. This is probably for the OP HaaTa- I read your posing about the building of your machine to get these force curves. How do you simulate an actual keystroke? How hard and fast (or slow) the stroke is will affect the measurements. Some people type kind of softly and kind of float the strokes like me (cant stand the clacking sound) and others like to slam the keys down and bottom out. This also subjectively changes the feel as well.
It's a motor that moves at a constant rate. I can't move it that quickly or I risk the machine destroying itself every time bottom out is detected (it's a very strong motor with a smooth screw drive). I agree, speed will affect things like friction, but what you notice at high speed are the larger events (e.g. tactile point, bottom out) rather than this bumpiness. There's also more data for your brain to process more quickly when typing fast, so you might just be subconsciously throwing that information away while trying to figure out what to type next.
This also poses the question, "Do you have to type fast for you keyboard to feel good?".
3. Is there any switch with which you found unacceptable variance?
Hmm, I don't really have a large enough sample size to answer this question. I do make sure each switch feels like it's supposed to before making measurements (i.e. trying a bunch of them, choosing one that feels the most similar across all the switches). I don't want to choose one that's broken or damaged because I'm not keyboard switch quality control. I'm trying to provide the community with characteristic force curves that they can compare with other switches.
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So are there more versions of "vintage blacks"?
I e.g. have a little bit more than two dozens Raptor Gaming K1 (Cherry G80-1800). All but one have Cherry MX Blacks and all but one were bought in 2012. But they were produced in different years (probably 2005-2011) and I feel distinctive differences between older keyboards (2005-2008 maybe) and newer (2010-2011?). The newer ones feel kinda scratchy in comparison.
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What would also be interesting is if the same switches could be tested every say 1M actuations to see what difference there is over time.
Of course this would require some rig to perform accelerated key presses, unless someone is up for the challenge.
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Whoa?! What magic is this! Awesome!
Also, Vintage blacks are not Used blacks. There's more to them than just wear & tear. They are more stable and appear to have a tiny amount of lubricant on them.
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This has nothing to do with quality control.
I gotta go with tp here. Vintage blacks have had years and years for the places where the plastic parts touch to wear down super smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the "new" cherry switches end up having a graph much like the first after a few decades.
How about brand new vintage blacks being super smooth out of the box?
I also have modern MX Reds that went through hell and back (used by a person like me for 5 years) and they're still scratchy like a sandpaper compared to old switches, so it must be something else than just use that makes vintage blacks smooth.