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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:52:47

Title: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:52:47: It's some time now that we are designing a new high-profile (breamspring-like) keycap set. Please bear in mind that the set will be PBT/dye sub (no 2-shot, sorry).

We had a first round of prototypes and I'm looking forward to your feedback. I love them already but maybe some work is still needed.

(https://i.imgur.com/rChbHX9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7XBPtgW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dGfByjb.jpg)

Comparison with SA

(https://i.imgur.com/JMY9NWq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/seYF2YS.jpg)

This is the spacebar compared to the bottom row

(http://puu.sh/sRM1s/c86407d35f.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/0PRUgz8.jpg)

We already made some updates so the prototypes are a bit obsolete, but I'd like to know what you think since we can still make some adjustments.

The bottom row is a bit of a hot topic. Some would like it flat (ala SA row 3), some convex, some very low, some very high... thoughts?
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: dante on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:59:24: You are going the wrong way. :)) I've been patiently waiting for news on whether you will be producing a Kailh ML clone board.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:01:47: Quote from: dante on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:59:24
You are going the wrong way. :)) I've been patiently waiting for news on whether you will be producing a Kailh ML clone board.

oh don't worry, I can handle both :D
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:04:27: I would love to see what a bottom row would look like with all keycaps having the same convex shape (and height) as the new spacebar. I would give up a flat bottom row for that!
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:05:40: Quote from: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:04:27
I would love to see what a bottom row would look like with all keycaps having the same convex shape (and height) as the new spacebar. I would give up a flat bottom row for that!

me too :) but I'm afraid it wouldn't be very popular
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: gnmar2723 on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:14:09: I prefer ABS but it looks like you have no choice but to go with PBT. Regardless, I really like the beamspring like profile! Looking forward to seeing more :thumb:
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:14:29: Darn.

Okay, so is it really such a bad idea to have the bottom row and spacebar have the same shape and height, even if the other keys are concave like they are now? Why the different heights? I just don't get the appeal of that.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:26:34: Quote from: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:14:29
Darn.

Okay, so is it really such a bad idea to have the bottom row and spacebar have the same shape and height, even if the other keys are concave like they are now? Why the different heights? I just don't get the appeal of that.

no, it is not a bad idea at all, I'm afraid it would be just for few hard-core retro junkies though :)
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:43:34: This whole profile is for hardcore retro junkies. Beamspring keycaps are only known by hardcore retro junkies. Why are we pretending that conforming to the aesthetics of its primary target audience will somehow undermine its broader appeal? Anyone else who doesn't know differently will still just see a retro spherical keycap set and won't have anything but SA to compare it to anyway.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:48:33: the cost of producing an entirely new set from scratch is pretty steep, you have to appeal most of the SA-lover
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: kiwi99 on Tue, 20 December 2016, 13:08:30: I am not a fan of SA for its overall fairly high profile, this looks interesting since it seems to be more sculpted. Are the rows on average lower profile than sculpted SA?
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 13:35:54: yes, definitely lower
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 13:53:51: Quote from: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:48:33
the cost of producing an entirely new set from scratch is pretty steep, you have to appeal most of the SA-lover

Okay, well, then you should be doing an all-R3 bottom row and an un-angled spacebar. That is what most SA lovers would expect.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: scwoopz on Tue, 20 December 2016, 14:06:48: this is quite interesting. is it possible to have it run for as cheap as XDA did? that would be really nice, especially in breaking down the SP/GMK monopoly. How does it feel compared to SA? I assume you only have mods and a spacebar
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: xtrafrood on Tue, 20 December 2016, 14:44:50: Chicago deep dish? Very yum, much feel :)
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: davkol on Tue, 20 December 2016, 16:14:21: /me drools
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:11:18: I am not much of a SA fan myself, so there might be something that I don't get about them. But my two cents, while trying to be objective:

* Extra height serves no purpose other than looks. Higher keys are wobblier keys. They also bind more easily on off-centred key presses. (Some people might like high SA because they are heavier and have heaver sounds.. I dunno if that is really important)

* There have been theories about the SA profile, that it would have originally been designed for slanted key stems.
I don't have any Selectric or Selectric II, but in images (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zr9tYeHc-0I/UMJLSFSeoMI/AAAAAAAACa8/Xkj4JwTpgoE/s1600/1971seiia.jpg) it does seem to me that the rows of keys indeed were slanted forwards somewhat, more so than SA on a flat surface.

* However, it is considered more ergonomic to have less tilt, even negative tilt. A too pronounced "staircase" like an older typewriters is therefore not desirable.
In discussions about profile and tilt and contoured backplanes however, I and a few others have come to the idea that maybe the best would be to have the backplane be flatter at the back and more slanted at the front. This means that if you can't curve the backplate on the front row forward, DCS and Topre profiles with their more slanted ZXCV rows are closer to the ideal than Cherry or OEM. People don't like the sharp edge on the front of those profiles' space bars, however.

If I were to design a spherical key profile, I think I would therefore start with something close to DSA (which is relatively low) for the home row or the row above it and then adjust the slant and height of the other rows from that.

Personally, I would prefer if all keys on the front row were in Space Bar profile except for cursor keys.
On the IBM Beam Spring keyboards, keys to the left and right of the Space Bar were also convex, albeit lower. It would be nice to have short space bars (2.75 or so) for split ergonomic keyboards in convex profile also.

BTW:
* There is an old thread on Deskthority, where someone claimed to be designing a spherical profile. I don't think anything came out of it. The guy got a lot of suggestions, and there might be some gems in those.
* Take a look at the numpad-Enter key on rubber dome Macintosh keyboards right before they changed to chiclet (1999-2008). Most keys have a wide, slight spherical surface... but the bottom row is convex. The numpad-Enter is concave at the top, and convex at the bottom.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: clappingcactus on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:18:32: Quote from: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:52:47
The bottom row is a bit of a hot topic. Some would like it flat (ala SA row 3), some convex, some very low, some very high... thoughts?

This question doesn't take into account wrist orientation.

For split keyboards, flat and same height as the M3 profile's Row 3 makes the most sense. This is because as you angle the keyboard so your shoulders don't stretch from their wresting position, then your thumbs will tend to hover a little bit lower than your fingers (under ideal typing posture).

But if you're talking about a regular single piece keyboard, with a profiled keyset, then Row 5 convex at the same height as the tallest point of Row 4 makes the most sense because ergonomically your thumb will rest higher to compensate for your wrists being angled inwards from your shoulders, and your thumbs might need to alternate between reaching for VBNM buttons and the space bar.

That said, I like what you've done with the profile so far. If I had one single piece of input it would just be 'more doming, please'. The keys barely look spherical in the photos you've posted.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:27:20: Quote from: Findecanor on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:11:18
* There have been theories about the SA profile, that it would have originally been designed for slanted key stems.

It's not a theory. SA originally only had R3 molds and the other profiles were added over time. In order to achieve a sculpt originally, angled stems (and/or a curved backplate) were necessary. However, angled stems (and curved backplates) haven't been around for a long time. Therefore today, the slant is supplied by the keycaps instead.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:35:45: I think that for 99.9% of keyboard users, "typing ergonomics" are meaningless. You'd have more marketplace success designing the row profiles to optimize for "ideal gaming posture" (whatever that might be) instead.

But that's not what a beamspring-inspired keycap set is really all about. It's all about nostalgia for a tall spherical keycap design that came from IBM and would compete with SA for the hearts and minds of all the vintage keycap nutters in the community. It seems to me that the only "ergonomics" that matter are the ones that you get for free by simply copying the original beamspring keycap shapes.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: clappingcactus on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:39:43: Quote from: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 22:35:45
I think that for 99.9% of keyboard users, "typing ergonomics" are meaningless. You'd have more marketplace success designing the row profiles to optimize for "ideal gaming posture" (whatever that might be) instead.

But that's not what a beamspring-inspired keycap set is really all about. It's all about nostalgia for a tall spherical keycap design that came from IBM and would compete with SA for the hearts and minds of all the vintage keycap nutters in the community. It seems to me that the only "ergonomics" that matter are the ones that you get for free by simply copying the original beamspring keycap shapes.

I think you mis-understood the point of what I said. There's no right answer to what the bottom row should be. Even from a theoretical, clinical perspective on 'ergonomics', there is a WRONG answer either way with regards to different uses of the keycap set. But there is no wrong answer all the time. So might as well go ahead with what's already been made.

But zslane ... you glossed over the most important point. Beamsprings had more doming. Let's unite and ask for more doming.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 23:00:38: I'm all for more dishing (if that's what you mean by more doming)!
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: clappingcactus on Tue, 20 December 2016, 23:04:03: Quote from: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 23:00:38
I'm all for more dishing (if that's what you mean by more doming)!

Yeah, whoops. I brain-farted.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 03 January 2017, 19:48:01: ps. It would be nice to have 1×1.5 keys for ErgoDox. With a contoured profile like numpad-Enter.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 06:28:18: we just pushed a second round of prototypes!

more pictures soon!
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 09:13:23: Quote from: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 11:52:47
...
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/7XBPtgW.jpg)

...

Is it just I can't see it clearly?
There's no "upper and lower" edge symmetrical row like the SA R3 in this new design?
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:05:57: Quote from: Matt3o on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:05:40
Quote from: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:04:27
I would love to see what a bottom row would look like with all keycaps having the same convex shape (and height) as the new spacebar. I would give up a flat bottom row for that!

me too :) but I'm afraid it wouldn't be very popular

Sure it would!

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5578/22791889688_ca30481dba_b.jpg)
Cut down IBM japanese keyboard 6112884 by dorkvader (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85806.0)

I'm also a fan of deep-dish keycaps a la the Topre Realforce 104UG (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100)

Regardless, these would be a great set of keycaps for the GH-122.2017.

- Ron | samwisekoi
Auto-typed by my GH-122 keyboard.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: potatobot on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:13:56: And i thought "Sculpted DSA" would be the next big thing. :thumb:
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:56:44: Quote from: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 09:13:23
Is it just I can't see it clearly?
There's no "upper and lower" edge symmetrical row like the SA R3 in this new design?

we added an option for a "flat" bottom row, but no, row3 is not flat.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 13:11:06: Quote from: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:56:44
Quote from: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 09:13:23
Is it just I can't see it clearly?
There's no "upper and lower" edge symmetrical row like the SA R3 in this new design?

we added an option for a "flat" bottom row, but no, row3 is not flat.

Ah... I see! :cool: I can see where this design decision comes from: the original beam spring keyboards do not have any row above the number row (e.g. now we have our F keys row), and only have 4 rows + space bar row.
And I can see the R1 of this profile can perhaps fit in the F key row.

I really like this new high profile and with dye-sub PBT too. :p
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Thu, 05 January 2017, 13:12:59: Quote from: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:56:44
Quote from: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 09:13:23
Is it just I can't see it clearly?
There's no "upper and lower" edge symmetrical row like the SA R3 in this new design?

we added an option for a "flat" bottom row, but no, row3 is not flat.

:thumb: for the flat bottom row profile option!

...but will the flat bottom row keys be height flush with the spacebar?
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Loligagger on Thu, 05 January 2017, 16:07:53: Quote from: Findecanor on Tue, 03 January 2017, 19:48:01
ps. It would be nice to have 1×1.5 keys for ErgoDox. With a contoured profile like numpad-Enter.

I'll second this.

Lookin' forward to seeing the second prototypes.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 16:37:40: Quote from: zslane on Thu, 05 January 2017, 13:12:59
Quote from: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:56:44
Quote from: menuhin on Thu, 05 January 2017, 09:13:23
Is it just I can't see it clearly?
There's no "upper and lower" edge symmetrical row like the SA R3 in this new design?

we added an option for a "flat" bottom row, but no, row3 is not flat.

:thumb: for the flat bottom row profile option!

...but will the flat bottom row keys be height flush with the spacebar?

yes

Quote from: Loligagger on Thu, 05 January 2017, 16:07:53
Quote from: Findecanor on Tue, 03 January 2017, 19:48:01
ps. It would be nice to have 1×1.5 keys for ErgoDox. With a contoured profile like numpad-Enter.

I'll second this.

Lookin' forward to seeing the second prototypes.

Bottom row is flat so you could use 1.5x1 vertically
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: BunnyLake on Thu, 05 January 2017, 17:32:56: already looks like a huge improvement on SA

great work as always sir
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Loligagger on Thu, 05 January 2017, 17:43:36: Quote from: Matt3o on Thu, 05 January 2017, 16:37:40
Bottom row is flat so you could use 1.5x1 vertically

That works for the inner column, but what of the four 1.5u keys on each side?

Will the flat bottom row come in with the second prototypes? I'm curious as to their height.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Thu, 05 January 2017, 17:51:46: Hmm. I just realized that a flat bottom row is only meaningful if the spacebar is also flat, but it's not, right? The spacebar is angled. In which case the bottom row should just be a concave version (in terms of height and angle and edge curvature) as the spacebar.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Photekq on Thu, 05 January 2017, 18:35:19: Quote from: zslane on Thu, 05 January 2017, 17:51:46
Hmm. I just realized that a flat bottom row is only meaningful if the spacebar is also flat, but it's not, right? The spacebar is angled. In which case the bottom row should just be a concave version (in terms of height and angle and edge curvature) as the spacebar.
We made the spacebar flat to match the bottom row. It would be quite silly not to :))
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: zslane on Thu, 05 January 2017, 19:05:32: Awesome!

(And I agree with you!)
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 14 January 2017, 09:45:14: It would be great if the stems are recessed a bit, but still have enough clearance to easily clear costar stabs

I prefer flat bottom rows myself, I sand my keycaps on the bottom rows so they are comfortable on the thumbs, so even if they are not flat on the bottom row, it would be great if their edges are smooth/polished
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 05 February 2017, 15:11:32: Have been thinking about this project, and ran into the old post of IBM multistation keyboard that also has high profile keys:
It seems to also have at least 6 distinct shapes for different rows.
More
(http://i.imgur.com/6EFsCaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 05 February 2017, 16:45:12: I just received a new batch of prototypes. I will be posting more pictures soon.

now we have the option of a flat or slant bottom row. Not sure yet which one should be
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 06 February 2017, 03:52:06: My vote's for a slanted bottom row. That and enough 1.5x molds for an ergodox set.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: Matt3o on Mon, 06 February 2017, 08:31:24: Unfortunately this second batch of prototypes didn't come out as good as the first. It seems like they rushed the curing phase maybe, buy anyway the 3d models are fine and all we wanted to check was the bottom row.

This is an overview:
(https://i.imgur.com/lvowhOM.jpg)

This is the previous angled bottom row (slightly updated):
(https://i.imgur.com/42UHjCn.jpg)

This is the flat bottom row:
(https://i.imgur.com/KFJk8oU.jpg)

Spacebar flat:
(https://i.imgur.com/DtpWJZm.jpg)

Spacebar angled:
(https://i.imgur.com/lOZ8Hxo.jpg)

Comparison:
(https://i.imgur.com/m030Y3O.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XCycGCk.jpg)

Personally I still prefer the angled version, especially this new updated iteration, but I'm fine either way
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 06 February 2017, 12:09:36: I've talked about it on other threads, but there is just so much involved that effects the feel of the keycaps to make it perfect for every user (height of the desk, keycap profile, angle of the board, the user's posture, palms hovered/vs. on the desk). I think the work you are doing here is a step in the right direction toward finding a middle-ground profile that is still beautiful and curvy.

I learned to type on a typewriter, and I was taught to put the keyboard at the edge of the desk and sit up straight. With this posture you can approach the keys at various angles, and it also allows you more freedom to travel across the keys without straining. I don't have to type for hours on end, but mostly in 5 min spurts throughout the day. I usually use a chair with arm wrests that hold me in position. SA is great in this posture for me, especially with a slight incline on the board. I feel like my fingers fit perfectly into the spherical impressions of the keycaps. I don't always stay in this position, but I consider this "working" position.

Everything changes drastically for me if I scoot my keyboard towards the monitor and rest my palms on the desk. This is my relaxing/surfing/gaming position. This setup now introduces a slight wrist strain that is more pronounced on higher profile boards/caps and even more with an incline. In this position, I prefer an almost flat and very low profile board. I have a Tex aluminum low profile case with G20 caps at the moment to tackle this issue. It's perfect for long gaming sessions. In this position, G20/DSA > Cherry > DCS > SA. I feel like my fingers get trapped in the scoops of SA profile when it is flat. Also, sculpted profiles don't make sense in this position. I never noticed it until I put my alps board in a flat case why people were flipping their space bars. In this (palm on the desk) position, flipping it makes sense. This "relaxed" position requires a more particular setup and is less flexible, but also can be more comfortable for long sessions.

For me, there is no right or wrong, but there certainly are some factors that effect my choice of keycaps.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 06 February 2017, 16:05:42: As a small reminder/insight, a significant portion of mech enthusiasts flip their spacebars, which is an indication they don't like the slanted bottom row

From the pictures, the current design for the slanted bottom row is extremely fierce, it would tore apart thumbs of those who use thumbs for the bottom row keys

As a counter insight, those who don't like sculpture too much probably don't use SA, so a slanted bottom row makes sense too
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 06 February 2017, 16:22:27: Quote from: KHAANNN on Mon, 06 February 2017, 16:05:42
As a small reminder/insight, a significant portion of mech enthusiasts flip their spacebars, which is an indication they don't like the slanted bottom row...

I flipped the spacebars of my keyboards because my thumb hit the front edge of the spacebar.

However, after adjusting my seat 15-20cm (about 6-8 inches) higher, i.e. the keyboard surface lower, and hence my elbow angle 90° or larger, I found that my thumb is hitting the edge of the spacebar again, this time the top edge of spacebar after flipping. From that time onward, I flipped the spacebar back and am happy with the spacebar shape in its original orientation.

(not my hand by the way ;))
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80812.0;attach=135913;image)
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: kiwi99 on Mon, 06 February 2017, 18:55:43: Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 06 February 2017, 08:31:24
Unfortunately this second batch of prototypes didn't come out as good as the first. It seems like they rushed the curing phase maybe, buy anyway the 3d models are fine and all we wanted to check was the bottom row.

This is an overview:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/lvowhOM.jpg)

This is the previous angled bottom row (slightly updated):
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/42UHjCn.jpg)

This is the flat bottom row:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/KFJk8oU.jpg)

Spacebar flat:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/DtpWJZm.jpg)

Spacebar angled:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/lOZ8Hxo.jpg)

Comparison:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/m030Y3O.jpg)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/XCycGCk.jpg)

Personally I still prefer the angled version, especially this new updated iteration, but I'm fine either way

looks good, and with incline on a keyboard wouldn't that leave the "angled" bottom being basically flat? I think it looks better with the angled bottom.
Title: Re: Designing a new high-profile set from scratch
Post by: a_ak57 on Sat, 11 February 2017, 23:19:17: I think angled is the way to go. Though the downside is we'll have to see pics of flipped abominations. :)