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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: alipstadt on Thu, 28 January 2010, 20:09:29

Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Thu, 28 January 2010, 20:09:29: Continued from http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8513.

So, my Model F AT showed up. Not my first, but I lost mine some 15 years ago, which originally came to me complete with a PC/AT and an EGA screen as an IT castoff from the firm where my Dad was then working. It has been some time - but they were good times before, the hassle of cleaning Stoned off my machine and all the 5.25s - except for one which then reinfected me, BBSing with Qmodem, using a "borrowed" dialup shell account to a local university, irc, gopher, ftp, and later, for a while, lynx. Oh, and Borland's DOS IDEs.

I had totally forgotten about the layout "problems" that many people complain about now - frankly, they were never much of an issue for me as switching to the numpad is a deliberate act, so hitting the button seems much the same as modal changes in vi. Backspace and escape where just where and what they were - I had used too many computer layouts (Apples, IBM clones, and the occasional Sun) to care by then.

This ebay find ($56 shipped!) however, had an extra solution for that: a "Keypatch AT" (also described as a Keypatch 10 on the reverse side). In the ebay finds thread, speculation was that it was a rubber dome pad with a parallel interface. Neither is correct - and the keycaps were a suprise:

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Logo_Keycap.JPG)

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Keypatch10_Label_Reverse.JPG)

The interface is clean and simple actually. The Keypatch's straight cable is threaded down the center of the Model F's coils. It terminates in a female AT connector for the Model F and a male AT connector for the computer.

Now, I don't have an AT computer anymore, but my Core i7 does have a single PS/2 port which usually is home to the keyboard part of my M13. After some false starts with some sort of custom adapter that *looks* just like an AT/PS2 adapter (should have used the multimeter the first time I had problems, not 45 minutes in, ugh), I managed to find a local repair firm a few blocks away that would sell me one for $10. Yay.

I guessed that hotswapping wouldn't work, (and Win7 was not happy with me for trying) but even off a cold boot, there was nothing. Next I went to my crappy Belkin KVM switch, which is fine with hotswapping, but still, nothing. Finally, USB. I have a few adapters, both K+M and single PS/2, but the only one that worked was a piece I picked up from J&R a couple of weeks ago. I went there specifically to buy a Belkin one that came recommended, but I picked up a second one because it was advertised as working with Apple and Sun as well (http://www.jr.com/qvs/pe/QVS_USB_hy_PS2Y/), which, aside from covering my other computers, indicated to me that they designed this for people to do stupid things.

Only problem was, all the keypatch status lights were on - it wasn't functioning. The Model F, however, worked just fine. It occured to me that some older hardware was in order, so I pulled out the Airlink luggable. I disconnected the loopback PS/2 cable (Blue Cherry lid keyboard to case mounted RJ-11, to internal PS/2, which then pops out of the case through a hole near the ISA cards, where it plugs into a -suprise- ISA I/O card. Shrug.) and plugged the F+Keypatch in. Lo, and behold:

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/It_Works.JPG)

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Oreo.JPG)

Even more interesting:

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Blue_White.JPG)

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Transplant.JPG)

Yeah, someone needs to tell me what these switches are [EDIT:Apparently, Cherry M84 linears]. In a word, they suck. They seem roughly linear, with a roughly MX like stem. Cherry caps interchange just fine, though the stem fins are not equal in horizontal and vertical length. There is a foam layer over the PCB which provides extra spring back. It just may be the worst keypress I have ever experienced - very heavy and very mushy.

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Switch_AT.JPG)

More stupid switching:

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Ebony_Ivory.JPG)

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/Black_Board_White_Cap.JPG)

(http://www.lipstadt.com/pub/ModelF/White_Board_Black_Cap.JPG)

Sorry if I went overboard with the pictures; I'm away from my apartment for the next few days, so I figured more is better cause I wont be able to add new shots to answer any questions.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: cchan on Thu, 28 January 2010, 20:34:38: Looks similar to these:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/hc20.htm

cited in http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards#Older+Cherry+keyboard+switches as being a Cherry M81/M84.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Thu, 28 January 2010, 20:41:14: Similar, but has Cherry ever made a stem so... thin looking? I'm used to equal sized fins; even the Japanese page on the old Epson has roughly equal sized fins on the stem.

EDIT: Ah, saw the M84 PDF. Looks like that's it.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: didjamatic on Thu, 28 January 2010, 22:07:23: Great post, glad someone on here got it.

Does this thing really work converting ADB keyboards to USB? This could be my ticket for my M0115 Apple Extended ADB keyboard. $11 is a heck of a lot better than $50 for a Griffin iMate and since it works with PS/2 it's much more useful.

(http://images.jr.com/productimages/QVSUSBPS2Y.PNG?CELL=380,380&QLT=67&FTR=3&BGCOLOR=FFFFFF&CVT=jpeg)

EDIT: Wait, that photo doesn't look like it will work with ADB, maybe the illustration is wrong?
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Thu, 28 January 2010, 22:31:05: Yeah, I wondered about the ADB thing myself when I picked it up. Truth is, the Belkin and the QVS were in entirely different places (two floors apart) and the store was closing. I had the QVS in hand by the time I found the Belkin, and realized I could always use more, so I bought both.

No, it doesn't do ADB; I think the point was to connect PS/2 devices to Apple or Sun USB ports. I haven't tried it for that, nor do I really need that. As a PS/2 to USB adapter, however, it is pretty good; I have three different dual models here and a radio shack single for my M13's Trackpoint, and it was the only one that worked on the Model F. I need to get some better USB adapters (though the Radio Shack one - a loaned piece - was a nice surprise, and of course, now discontinued), ones that are known to work with Model Fs and might handle the extra draw.

Would love to take this out to a cafe with my Fujitsu U820 :-)
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Thu, 28 January 2010, 23:21:00: FWIW, it is nice to know that that fairly cheap QVS adapter can handle a Model F, even if it couldn't handle the add on Keypatch, which seems somewhat rare.

Especially nice to know if you are in the NYC area and don't want to wait on shipping. Probably should be added to that list of USB adapters.

BTW, I forgot how much better the Model F is. Yes, I know I only list a M13 in my sig, but I've used various models over the years, and this is so much better. I just wish the Keypatch weren't so bad. When I have a chance, I'm going to try removing the foam layer on the PCB.

Regardless, (and especially after losing that auction last month by a dollar (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8116)) I am very, very happy.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: trievalot on Fri, 29 January 2010, 05:34:51: This is what i use with my Ms and F :)

They work great!!!!!

Quote from: didjamatic;154479
Great post, glad someone on here got it.

Does this thing really work converting ADB keyboards to USB? This could be my ticket for my M0115 Apple Extended ADB keyboard. $11 is a heck of a lot better than $50 for a Griffin iMate and since it works with PS/2 it's much more useful.

Show Image
(http://images.jr.com/productimages/QVSUSBPS2Y.PNG?CELL=380,380&QLT=67&FTR=3&BGCOLOR=FFFFFF&CVT=jpeg)

EDIT: Wait, that photo doesn't look like it will work with ADB, maybe the illustration is wrong?
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 29 January 2010, 06:40:09: Your Model F with the Keypatch is having some trouble because the computer does not have enough power in the PS/2 port to power both if them. Try plugging one of them and it should work.

Some solutions people have told me about are getting a USB converter. Clickykeyboards.com has some for about 20USD and they told me those adapters solve the power issues. My M5-2 does that sometimes; I have to start up my computer a couple of times every once in a while to get it to work.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 29 January 2010, 06:43:34: You can get those "Blue Cubes" for much cheaper elsewhere.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 29 January 2010, 07:50:21: Quote from: cchan;154473
Looks similar to these:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/hc20.htm

cited in http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards#Older+Cherry+keyboard+switches as being a Cherry M81/M84.

Tales! Where have you been? We haven't seen you around in awhile.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 11:04:50: @MS Windows-

I know, but everything did work over PS/2 - on the Dolch/Airlink. Quick run down summary:

Core i7 Desktop, via PS/2= Model F ok, keypatch not working with all status lights lit.
Core i7 Desktop, via QVS USB= Model F ok, keypatch not working with all status lights lit.
Belkin PS/2 KVM=Nothing
Dolch AMD luggable, via PS/2=Model F ok, Keypatch ok.

Stupid that I did not try the Core i7 PS/2 port with just the Keypatch. I might have a chance later today.

From here, I will try other single port USB adapters for both. Failing that, I hack a PS/2 cable to draw 5V from a USB port in parallel, but that doesn't help me for my one port laptop :-\
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 29 January 2010, 13:18:50: I think your old luggable computer supplies more power to its PS/2 port than your I7 computer. This has been known to happen.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 15:04:21: I'm sure the older PS/2 port does supply more power, coming from a time and and an industrial market where higher draw keyboards were more common. That's why I pulled it out :-)

I just hope that I can get away with 500ma@5v for the whole thing, I would hate to have to use a dual USB Y cable, or the aforementioned PS/2+USB power hack. I'm dying to use this with my Fujitsu U820.

(From experience, the *single* USB port on the Fujitsu will supply over 500ma, but Windows will ***** and not negotiate, probably due to the ma spike in USB negotiation)
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 29 January 2010, 15:07:50: One of those Blue Cube adapters will sort you out fine. Ripster - where do you get them for cheap in the US again?
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 15:14:19: Yeah, ordering some Blue Cubes is on the to do list for today. So is fixing/testing a wonky G84, but that's for another thread.

Incidentally, has anyone seen this Keypatch before? The internet is silent other than the Infoworld article about a related, but dumber model - Parallel Port+DOS "driver," ugh. Glad I didn't actually *have* to use my oscope.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 29 January 2010, 18:14:33: I should get some blue cubes too. Then my keyboards would be more reliable at startup.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 18:15:19: Ok, so the Keypatch without the AT keyboard doesn't work via USB, which I suspected (it had enough power to light all three status lights at the same time before, so it couldn't be a simple power problem).

Blue Cubes before I go any further.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: cchan on Fri, 29 January 2010, 19:19:17: Quote from: itlnstln;154538
Tales! Where have you been? We haven't seen you around in awhile.

I was ashamed. I got rid of all my computers with PS/2 ports so I couldn't use my old keyboards anymore. Now I have a Blue Cube in the mail (:
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 29 January 2010, 19:34:28: Quote from: microsoft windows;154675
I should get some blue cubes too. Then my keyboards would be more reliable at startup.

On old computers, USB keyboards don't work on computers before the OS boots.
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 21:57:05: Public service post: better pricing on cubes (http://www.universalpart.com/product.aspx?ProductIDX=4995).
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 29 January 2010, 22:17:35: Quote from: alipstadt;154740
Public service post: better pricing on cubes (http://www.universalpart.com/product.aspx?ProductIDX=4995).

Looks like minimum order is 2 of them, about $20 dollars shipped for 2
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Fri, 29 January 2010, 22:26:16: I needed a bunch of things :-)
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: kishy on Fri, 29 January 2010, 22:29:33: Am I the only one getting "Access Denied" on that link?
Title: IBM Personal Computer AT Clicky W/Keypatch AT
Post by: alipstadt on Sat, 30 January 2010, 00:36:07: Checkout was with Google, I'm ok with that, but to each their own.