geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ander on Wed, 04 January 2017, 05:33:03
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Yo guys,
I've always wondered: What's the deal with Japanese layouts? For example, this Realforce.
(http://www.vshopu.com/item/0348-0401/DSCF0010.jpg)
They look very cool to me, and obviously they're handy for people in Japan. But does anyone use them to type in English?
Yeah, there's the ISO Enter key. (That wouldn't bother me, personally; I have no trouble going back n' forth between a regular Model M and a 122-key terminal version.) But what do you do with all those bottom keys? Is a spacebar that small really practical? You could map the four middle keys (including the spacebar) to generate a space, but I wondered if anyone used them in other ways.
Surprisingly, I haven't seen this discussed here (or maybe I just couldn't find it).
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I have an maximized japanese spacebar
(so2x2u, 2x 1. 5)
its great!
Have space, enter, and layer keys there
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Ooh, photo, photo!
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The Japanese don't really use the spacebar much though, right? Oo
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I have a Phantom w/ 7bit's layout and want a JIS keyboard. Why?
- Backspace is hard to reach in an upper corner. Using a part of the split spacebar is much better for this. Then, a 2u key in the corner is a waste. Instead, it can accommodate, say, Delete and tilda (hence Esc can be in the main section just like on the Sun ANSI unix layout).
- "Wide mod" is a great way to get at least some hand separation on a standard keyboard. It essentially means shifting right-hand-side symbols one column to the right. It also brings right-hand-side modifiers (Shift, AltGr, Ctrl, Super) more accessible. Where does JIS come into play here? The split right Shift effectively enables *two-column* hand separation.
- Extra thumb keys may serve as extra modifiers.
(https://i.imgur.com/exxzMWK.png)
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I (somewhat regrettably) ordered my last MacBook with a JIS keyboard. It's maddening when I go to program (a lot of the symbols I need are in different places). While my space bar is a bit bigger than that of the RealForce you posted, I have the same additional keys on either side of it (mostly). Two of the additional keys (that you likely don't recognize due to the Japanese legends) allow for changing input mode from English to Japanese and back.
That being said-- I do obviously type English on mine. I also actually type Japanese using the romaji input method, which doesn't even utilize the special hiragana legends on the board (I think this is common amongst Japanese natives too, who appear to often buy English layout keyboards). So, in hindsight, I had no business getting the JIS. hah. But that's why I'm here researching these lovely mechanical boards.
I think the control/caps lock reversal on my JIS board has prepped me for many of the boards I am considering buying. :p
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I (somewhat regrettably) ordered my last MacBook with a JIS keyboard.
At least, Apple tends to give JIS keyboards a properly sized vertical Return key, and not a half-width one like they give to ISO layouts.
One or two of the keys on the bottom row are also for selecting how to convert Hiragana to Kanji, are they not?
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I like the bottom row for the jap layout, but would prefer to have the spacebar moved under 'NM'
Bottom row jap and the rest HHKB-ish would be najs
just can't do ISO enter, too awkward for me to use for some reason, plus it's ugo
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I (somewhat regrettably) ordered my last MacBook with a JIS keyboard.
At least, Apple tends to give JIS keyboards a properly sized vertical Return key, and not a half-width one like they give to ISO layouts.
One or two of the keys on the bottom row are also for selecting how to convert Hiragana to Kanji, are they not?
Yes, in the case of the RealForce above, it looks like the key layout is:
[Ctrl][Win][Alt][English Mode][Space][Kanji Selector][Kana Mode][Alt][Menu][Ctrl]
EDIT:
[Ctrl][Win][Alt][English Mode][Space][Kana Mode][Hiragana/Katakana Toggle][Alt][Menu][Ctrl]
In the case of the MacBook JIS layout, the [Kanji Selector] key is missing (amongst others). On the MB, kanji variants are chosen by hitting the space bar to tab through available options, and hitting the enter key to select the desired choice. I like this, as it affords me a larger space bar, and conveniently moves the functionality of the missing key to the space bar.
EDIT: As stated above, I have never owned a JIS keyboard with the exact layout of the RealForce posted above... after further investigation, I think the key to the immediate right of the Space is actually the [Kana Mode] button (Japanese Mode), and the button to the right of the simply chooses *which* kana mode, Hiragana or Katakana. As such, the method of browsing and selection of kanji options is likely completely identical to my MacBook. I however also have to choose Hiragana/Katakana via the kanji selector method, since I do not have a hard-coded button to convert. Hiragana is the default, and words commonly written in katakana typically auto-convert, so it is a decent system that only requires intermittent manual conversion to katakana.
In any event, I think those buttons are a waste of space for people that aren't inputting Japanese. I'm sure that could be remedied by remapping and recapping the keys. I would just give a warning to programmers and the like-- the symbol keys are all over the place. It is a hard adjustment to make, and is inefficient at best when trying to bang out some code.
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I would just give a warning to programmers and the like-- the symbol keys are all over the place. It is a hard adjustment to make, and is inefficient at best when trying to bang out some code.
Or, y'know, learn to touch type.
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Or, y'know, learn to touch type.
Of course I touch type; my whole day is on played out on a keyboard... The symbol keys are just so scattered and inconvenient on the JIS layout. The @ is to the right of the P (as the primary key to boot), the + is on the ; key (which of course means the : is elsewhere), the backslash is only accessible via a key combo which requires both hands (at least on Apple's JIS layout), the = requires a shift to access, the parenthesis are on 8/9 vs 9/0, the underscore is a dedicated key to the left of the right-shift, etc. It is just not as fluid as when I type code on a US/English layout keyboard, and I'd imagine anyone would agree. Perhaps if I used JIS at work too, I wouldn't be making these complaints...
I'll reiterate, I would not recommend the JIS layout to a programmer... touch-typist or otherwise.
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Or, y'know, learn to touch type.
Of course I touch type; my whole day is on played out on a keyboard... The symbol keys are just so scattered and inconvenient on the JIS layout.
/me shakes head
What does the Japanese *keymap* have to do with the physical layout? You know that you can use the US QWERTY on a Japanese keyboard…?
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What does the Japanese *keymap* have to do with the physical layout? You know that you can use the US QWERTY on a Japanese keyboard…?
You are absolutely right, and I will have plead ignorance on this. I'm only just scratching the surface on this keyboard stuff, and the modding of keyboards/keymaps. I have historically used every keyboard with it's default mappings (aside from my WoW days perhaps)... but that obviously can be changed via software/settings. Legends would be somewhat inaccurate at that point, but I would be touch-typing so that would be a non-issue. I will have to look into this, thanks for the idea!
Sorry for derailing the thread a little. I suppose this discussion is truly about the JIS physical layout, and not the JIS keymap... :-X
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two 46 letter alphabets have a hard time fitting on a typical ANSI keyboard
now that most japanese know english (and computers are smarter) it's a bit different, but that's the most condensed layout
look at some REALLY old chinese printing gear to get an idea of where it's come from
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There's a lot of love for JIS HHKBs on reddit, but I don't really get it.
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two 46 letter alphabets have a hard time fitting on a typical ANSI keyboard
now that most japanese know english (and computers are smarter) it's a bit different, but that's the most condensed layout
look at some REALLY old chinese printing gear to get an idea of where it's come from
I can't speak about Chinese-- but Japanese typewriters are *so* cool looking, if not super inefficient... They had to have some way to print 2000+ different Chinese characters. I recommend looking them up. For a while I wanted one as a display piece, but gave up the hunt.
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I will make an photo soon..
An 7BIT Phantom is something really really nice, but so far I couldnt grab an pcb+plate combo - so I went with an pcb mount 66% clueboard for which I made an custom wood case.
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This seems an interesting resource.
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb02.htm
I get quite confused by the layouts used in Eastern Asia. I can see the reason you might like one if you were a learner of the language and you were writing Kanji every day or something.
The only JIS layout I would get would be the keyboard made by Topre for Nissho electronics. In general I find the single unit backspace quite off-putting. I do, however, have a Space Invaders board with a single unit backspace that I use from time to time.
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I have difficulties with the small right shift being one space further over than normal, enter is not great but not terrible, but I love the small space bar. I only use one thumb for space and it's exactly where the JIS layout one sits.
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[IMG]https://www.dropbox.com/s/amij1ccptq5a8x3/20161215_194329.jpg?dl=0/IMG]
the layout is
1.25=x 1=y z=2u
xyxxzzxxyxyyy
(Im on my phone, excuse the variables)
with these tweaks
capslock=backspace
ISOkey next to lshift=layer1
y1=layer3
z1=enter, layer2
z2=space
y2='switch to last program'
i have to admit:
y1 is not often used.
the FN and Menu keycaps are also for layers, to get home and pg keys
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(http://i.imgur.com/43cDJrZ.jpg)
Here's my only JIS layout keyboard. :P Except it's for an antiquated way of typing out Chinese characters that was stylized after the JIS format I guess. At least that's what I hear. I don't see Chinese keyboards with these layouts these days, so I'd assume so.
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The Japanese don't really use the spacebar much though, right? Oo
Yup there is very little use for it.
Don't get a Japanese keyboard to type in any western language on. You will only be causing yourself suffering and pain. For typing in Japanese if you know what you're doing then you can crank out text fast as hell. But Jesus Christ don't buy one if you're not gonna type in Japanese! I switch to Japanese input a fair amount and I still prefer to continue to use the USA layout and type in whatever I want. The space bar is more for scrolling thru different characters you can write if you need to do that, and honestly all I would want is some keycaps with Japanese on them as well as English, but they are too hard to find.
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There are a few different more types of pretty unusual Japanese layouts for older Japanese machines, for instance the columnar M-Shiki, FM-Towns with what looks like a split space and a pair of keys in front of them.
There is also, I think an input system with only three rows of keys with spaces between them that I think is chorded.
Very little about them have been translated to English so I don't know much. I think it is quite refreshing to learn about keyboards input systems that are different from the norm, though.
One cool keyboard system I admire is the Tron. Instead of using Shift, Alt Gr and Shift-Alt Gr for symbols, the left and right Shift keys are different.
Each pair of for instance ( and ), [ and ], < and > etc. are on the same key but you got the left or the right by whether you used the left or the right Shift key to produce it.
The symbol keys are just so scattered and inconvenient on the JIS layout. The @ is to the right of the P (as the primary key to boot), the + is on the ; key (which of course means the : is elsewhere), the backslash is only accessible via a key combo which requires both hands (at least on Apple's JIS layout), the = requires a shift to access, the parenthesis are on 8/9 vs 9/0, the underscore is a dedicated key to the left of the right-shift, etc. It is just not as fluid as when I type code on a US/English layout keyboard, and I'd imagine anyone would agree. Perhaps if I used JIS at work too, I wouldn't be making these complaints...
Yes, well, programming languages made in USA fit US layout the best, of course.. ;)
There are some similar idiosyncrasies in European layouts as well, but I have become accustomed to them.
= is on Shift-0, The key between . and right Shift has - and _.
In German layout @ is on Alt Gr-Q, which kind of makes sense only because of how they look similar to one-another. Having to type Alt Gr + 7 8 9 0 for { [ ] } is a bit of a chore though ...
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for European layouts one can use CTRL+ALT to produce eg {[]}
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for European layouts one can use CTRL+ALT to produce eg {[]}
Yeah, in MS-DOS and later in Windows, you have been able to get right Alt (Alt Gr) by pressing Ctrl+Alt. Older keyboards with the Model F layout had only the left Alt Key so there was a need to be able to simulate the right key somehow.
On modern keyboards though with a right Alt key, I can type {[]} with only one hand.
But really, I think the separation of left and right Alt keys should be deprecated. It was silly from the beginning. The left Alt should also be usable for symbols on the PC, like it was on Mac and the Amiga.
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davkol has the right idea. e.g. on an apple laptop with Karabiner-Elements or the like to change key function can very easily pull hands apart without affecting US-ANSI muscle memory much at all:
(https://i.imgur.com/5YvQbF2.png)
His full 2 key move of the right hand is probably even better, though it takes a bit more retraining. If willing to do that can also e.g. throw in an easier to reach shift:
(https://i.imgur.com/BYOVeXP.png)
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I forgot that I spent some time on making this pretty a few years ago. Here’s a basic ANSI-like layout
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d98183094f9cb9b022350185b7f425e3
(https://i.imgur.com/xiirIRV.png)
Or one more like davkol’s proposal:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/7fbe6a4cc565b86cac725ec3d82a2ff7
(https://i.imgur.com/eSDl7aF.png)
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ISO/JIS enter key is my least favorite thing. Also, smart people map backspace onto backslash.
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I have a Filco Majestouch 2 Japanese, and with a custom controller board you can remap the thumb keys to do whatever you want, which is pretty cool.