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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: tigersharkdude on Sun, 08 January 2017, 06:40:22

Title: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: tigersharkdude on Sun, 08 January 2017, 06:40:22
Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left the community. I have taken an absence for a few month, prior to leaving it heavily frowned upon to sell artisans for multiple times their new cost (especially caps that were just sold). But since my return I am seeing a lot of caps for sale at massive amounts of inflation ($400 brobots, $450 conspires, etc, etc).


It seems that this negative stigma (and banning the seller from future raffles) was a decent way to deter flippers and to allow said caps to go to the community and not someone trying to make a buck.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 08 January 2017, 08:01:04
There are still classifieds with 'not for sale at any price' and 'I reserve the right to chose who I sell/trade with/to' so price gouging and flipping are frowned upon, but increasing numbers of rich/insecure people are willing to spend silly money so others will cater to them.  Hopefully artisans are still trying to blacklist them but without requirements to enter alts will be used, and we've seen the mess caused when Bro tried to introduce requirements...

Personally I ignore anyone known for throwing money around when I'm trading and I don't approve FS threads with silly prices, there's just no point talking about it.
Title: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: Pdub on Sun, 08 January 2017, 08:31:49
It's simple economics. The higher the demand, and lower availability the higher the cost. More and more people join each day. And let's get real all these Artisans are awesome. I think it's fair to sell them at that high cost(because people can do what ever they want.), but I won't buy them at those prices.

In the past, many saw that I sold some at a profit, it was because I was in a financial hard time and sometimes people talk ALOT of **** here. So, I was sick of being in a toxic environment. GH can be one the most whiny forums I am on. I think because of the young age group. But I love seeing what other people keyboard builds are and a few people have really helped me build my own board and make Artisans. If the Artisan makers were smart they would make the same color ways that people "demand" at the high prices for and sell them on eBay. A fair fight to get them, the maker gets all the money, and it would bring the demand costs down. I won a Keywok and a Colonel in the last Booper sale. I had 15 unsolicited offers. Two were above $1,000 for both. WHO HAS THAT KIND OF MONEY TO BUY TWO PIECES OF PLASTIC. . Don't get me wrong, they are wicked cool, but still.

Remember you cannot control the actions of others. But I understand the frustration. I just want an MX 3D Clack, they are no where to be found and if you see it, it goes for $300+.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sun, 08 January 2017, 08:45:51
Quote from: tigersharkdude on Sun, 08 January 2017, 06:40:22
Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left the community. I have taken an absence for a few month, prior to leaving it heavily frowned upon to sell artisans for multiple times their new cost (especially caps that were just sold). But since my return I am seeing a lot of caps for sale at massive amounts of inflation ($400 brobots, $450 conspires, etc, etc).


It seems that this negative stigma (and banning the seller from future raffles) was a decent way to deter flippers and to allow said caps to go to the community and not someone trying to make a buck.

I think the stigma is still there, however as the community continues to increase in size there are more people willing to buy and flip than there are people morally against it.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: happylacquer on Sun, 08 January 2017, 18:47:22
Is marking up a long discontinued artisan cap from years past by less than $20 considered to be a "**** move?" I am just  curious. Its obvious selling ANY cap, unless it was made by Leonardo Da'vinci as the perfect keycap, should not be selling for museum prices (pun intended). I agree that seeing crazy posts like $100+ for a single artisan cap confuse me, but my idea was the market was there. $400 for a cap though? does anyone really do it?

conversely - If i decide to sell some of my artisan caps, i don't know who are the flippers and the hoarders and the people to avoid. How do I as a newbie to this place sell my extra caps at more or less the price I paid for them when I don't want them to be picked up by flippers? This is a legit concern of mine as I would much rather just keep all my artisans than have even one go to a flipper who is going to make 2, 5, 10x what i made, just out of greed and opportunistic behavior. i would only want to sell stuff for asking prices, maybe a teeeeeenny more if its a super are one, but i cant think of one cap worth over 100 being bought by anyone...

thanks!
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:13:16
Quote from: happylacquer on Sun, 08 January 2017, 18:47:22
Is marking up a long discontinued artisan cap from years past by less than $20 considered to be a "**** move?" I am just  curious. Its obvious selling ANY cap, unless it was made by Leonardo Da'vinci as the perfect keycap, should not be selling for museum prices (pun intended). I agree that seeing crazy posts like $100+ for a single artisan cap confuse me, but my idea was the market was there. $400 for a cap though? does anyone really do it?

conversely - If i decide to sell some of my artisan caps, i don't know who are the flippers and the hoarders and the people to avoid. How do I as a newbie to this place sell my extra caps at more or less the price I paid for them when I don't want them to be picked up by flippers? This is a legit concern of mine as I would much rather just keep all my artisans than have even one go to a flipper who is going to make 2, 5, 10x what i made, just out of greed and opportunistic behavior. i would only want to sell stuff for asking prices, maybe a teeeeeenny more if its a super are one, but i cant think of one cap worth over 100 being bought by anyone...

thanks!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clack-Factory-Red-Base-White-Skull-Cherry-MX-Keycap-RARE-/182380005829?hash=item2a76b209c5:g:H9IAAOSw-0xYR2-Q

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clack-Factory-Topre-Candy-Corn-/262734732526?hash=item3d2c35dcee:g:JlQAAOSw5cNYOMtI

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=clack%20factory&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

If you really care you can check someone's post history before selling to them. Depending on the maker, the demand is there so the prices are there too. Just because you wouldn't pay $100 for an artisan doesn't mean no one will, you also have to keep in mind some artisans retail for close to $100.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:14:51
WILL BUY ARTISANS FOR TOP $$$$
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:20:50
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:14:51
WILL BUY ARTISANS FOR TOP $$$$
$$$$ GOLD 4 CAPS $$$$

(https://i.imgur.com/j9DMRtk.jpg)
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:22:47
Quote from: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:20:50
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:14:51
WILL BUY ARTISANS FOR TOP $$$$
$$$$ GOLD 4 CAPS $$$$

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/j9DMRtk.jpg)


Hah! That's pretty good. (hands clapping emoticon)
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:31:09
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:22:47
Quote from: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:20:50
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:14:51
WILL BUY ARTISANS FOR TOP $$$$
$$$$ GOLD 4 CAPS $$$$

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/j9DMRtk.jpg)


Hah! That's pretty good. (hands clapping emoticon)
Thanks. When it comes to serious investments like artisan keycaps, I spare no expense in time or money to develop an attractive marketing plan.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:34:08
Quote from: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:31:09
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:22:47
Quote from: hking0036 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:20:50
Quote from: digi on Sun, 08 January 2017, 19:14:51
WILL BUY ARTISANS FOR TOP $$$$
$$$$ GOLD 4 CAPS $$$$

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/j9DMRtk.jpg)


Hah! That's pretty good. (hands clapping emoticon)
Thanks. When it comes to serious investments like artisan keycaps, I spare no expense in time or money to develop an attractive marketing plan.

Welcome to winners circle m8 :P
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: happylacquer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 00:34:20
Who are these f****ing idiots paying 200, 300, even 630 PLUS shipping for ONE cap? I guess if the market exists...
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: OfTheWild on Mon, 09 January 2017, 00:40:07
It seems like the value is simply based on what people are willing to pay. Sure it sucks, and believe me it sucks even more when you buy something at an inflated price and then due to over supply the prices of resale plummet. It happened to me with Hinderer knives this year where they over saturated the market and basically ruined the resale values of what used to be rare special stylings. I generally feel like its ok to price gouge on resale, its the luck of winning right? Its not up to the artist to increase their prices or even worse, come after people that do resell the piece they just "won". If you want to put an end to people making more money off the items you sold them, flood the market and take the money back for yourself... but be warned that generally causes people to lose interest.

Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: hking0036 on Mon, 09 January 2017, 02:35:30
Quote from: happylacquer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 00:34:20
Who are these f****ing idiots paying 200, 300, even 630 PLUS shipping for ONE cap? I guess if the market exists...
I'd be careful who you call a "****ing idiot" considering that insults quite a few people around here, but clacks are popular stuff. It makes sense why they go for so much even if you don't agree with it. It's not very refreshing coming from TF2's unusual frenzy into real life Artisan frenzy but it's just sort of there. I have one I got in a giveaway and I'm not really looking for more (unless I can get in on a binge raffle but that's just because I like binge), it's honestly more interesting to follow keyboards, switch developments and the like (of which there are a number of these days which is very cool).
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: btctopre on Mon, 09 January 2017, 09:23:24
i thought it was understood by now that clackvent is actually just a celebration of how much money everyone can make off the back of clickclack (when it's not broken).
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: keytohopiness on Mon, 09 January 2017, 09:41:26
Sign me up!
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: Aperture_Sci on Mon, 09 January 2017, 09:48:46
So I guess I can fall into the category of someone who paid a lot for an artisan. I got into mech's about 2 years ago and got my first Korean custom a few months ago. The board was $$250 for the kit and $75 for switches and stabs (zealios). So this was my first real taste of a high dollar amount for a board. Realizing this is an expensive hobby, I decided I wanted to get a nice artisan for the board and started looking for a design I liked, didn't matter if it was $10 or $500 (not that I ever would spend that, just seems some people only like the expensive stuff because it's expensive). I found the kosmos and my love of space and science from being a kid really shined through - I love the design.

I had some good caps from the raffles I won. I sold some caps that I won for the market price of ~$125 that other people were asking (most were going for $150-$175) and paid $300 with the profit for a kosmo and traded to get some others.

Booper Kosmos are now selling for more than $350 and it's been less than few weeks since I received mine. I've had random pm's from people going through history of logs trying to get these caps and offering more than what I paid. I know it was a lot to spend on a cap, especially when kosmos retailed from Booper for what, like $38 or something - but it doesn't look like they'll be reproduced and it was created by two amazing artists (KK! and Booper). The value will always be there and as mentioned, more people are joining and the value can only go up. If I ever sell my kosmos I would sell them for what I paid since I am not here to make money, rather, I just want a great setup that I truly enjoy. I can afford this hobby so why shouldn't I splurge and what I want?
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: tigersharkdude on Mon, 09 January 2017, 11:20:45
Quote from: Aperture_Sci on Mon, 09 January 2017, 09:48:46
. I can afford this hobby so why shouldn't I splurge and what I want?

Just because you can afford to blow a weeks pay on one cap doesn't mean everyone else can. If  people start buying caps at massively inflated prices, it will cause the majority of people to priced out of the secondary market.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: happylacquer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 11:44:45
Quote from: hking0036 on Mon, 09 January 2017, 02:35:30
Quote from: happylacquer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 00:34:20
Who are these f****ing idiots paying 200, 300, even 630 PLUS shipping for ONE cap? I guess if the market exists...
I'd be careful who you call a "****ing idiot" considering that insults quite a few people around here, but clacks are popular stuff. It makes sense why they go for so much even if you don't agree with it.

I dont mean to insult anybody but you could buy a new pc and several really nice actual keyboards for $650 which is what that one skull cap on eBay went for. I'm not hating on anyone at all and i totally see how my previous message seemed inflammatory but I just can't help but feel like I can't understand why someone would spend over 600 on one cap when, for example, a brand new HHKB and a brand new PS4 is less money than that! Of course it comes down to how important it is to you and how much you want to spend. If I -absolutely- fell in love with a cap set yes i would shell out up to a couple hundred. over 600 though I have a hard time believing someone actually paid that, or it isn't the ebay seller shilling himself up to screw with the market.

I'm sorry, my old post really reads like i'm blaming the buyer. I really mean to put my suspicion on that particular ebay seller. I personally apologize if i hurt anyone in our  community.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: tigersharkdude on Mon, 09 January 2017, 11:59:48
^I'm in the same boat as you, I just couldn't see myself dropping hundreds of dollars on a single cap
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: DanielT on Mon, 09 January 2017, 12:21:32
Sadly there is nothing that can be done against this. At one point I was pretty vocal and got only grief in return. We are living in a world ruled by consumatorism and that's the end of it.
All this drama and insane prices just made me lose interest in this area, I'm happy with what I have and if I get something at a decent price I'm happy if not .... who the **** cares anymore.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: Aperture_Sci on Mon, 09 January 2017, 12:59:57
The real problem (and I wouldn't call it a problem) is the supply and demand model. There are extremely finite number of expensive artisans - you woud never see the gas mask or warmaster artisans reach that high in price because of how many there are. ie: Bro only makes a small amount of super small/ secretive sales, Booper made a small number of caps and on person bought 40% of them and then got banned and disappeared from the community, Clacks are no longer being produced (as far as I know).

It's the same as the ZZ96/ Duck/ Red Scarf boards. Our hobby essentially creates artificial demand for making extreme small number of products. When this happens, it isolates 80% of the community. The high tier players, who make $2,000-$3,000 a week will eventually be the last people left to buy things. Spending 10% of a paycheck on something they really like isn't going to deter them.

The only way to fix it would be to have people sell their items at what they purchased them at, however, it would need to be a mutual agreement across the board, which will NEVER happen. There isn't a great way to fix this problem.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: yinzer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 13:32:25
Folks have more money than patience. I don't think there's anything magically different about people from when you took some time off. Hell, I stopped participating on the forums for about 7 months because I was unemployed/depressed. People were flipping caps when I left and they were flipping when I came back.

Edit: I answered OP's question and then went a half-mile off topic with a rant about price hyperinflation. It sounded like a get off my lawn speech, so I cut it off for thread tidiness and to save a little face.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: henz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 15:04:06
I heard a nice story once about a guy who got ahold of a bbv2(Do not remember who it was.), He had been fortunate enough to win at some HKP raffles, but not so fortunate on bro raffles.

He then proceeded to trade a guy, 10 hkp caps, for a single brobot, The other guy who got the 10 hkp caps started selling them at retail price(not sure its the right definition) ~25$

Now i want to know the difference from this, and buying a bbv2 for 250. Do i have to buy 10 hkps at retail before i can get my bbv2 to be a good samaritan(And even then not be sure to get a bbv2, because lets face it, who would want 10 HKP caps)? Or are the traded hkps tagged as lower valued after trading for only one cap?

With no buy/no sell logics. You have to acquire a certain amount of "valuable", "sought after" caps to get anywhere. And to get these caps the "proper way", you have to win a raffle which nowadays has so many participants, and the sought after caps makers are usually not making enough caps to meet the huge demand that we have right now(Except bro maybe in the later sales and HKP). And lets face it, its a fregging lottery, and if you are lucky enough you can start looking for your dream cap. But most people Will _never_ win for example a Booper raffle unless those who have already won are banned from entering again or if the supply starts meeting the demand.

There are guys who has been around for a while and have won alot of caps overtime when the demand wasnt that high and have 20+ rare artisan keycaps I dont see them trading their caps for nice looking gasmasks, or giving out handouts(I know some people have done it previously, there are always philanthropists which feels good about giving, and haves too much). for example

Lets take ops gid Reper he is trading right now, 2 days or so ago, he was asking for a war torn defender, now he is asking for something else, could it be so that you found out that there are _alot_ of them out there(and could score one for retail)? That you might want something more "valuable"?

And i saw some complaints in the "Whats it worth" thread, that there were some "lowballing offers" going on.

NONE of these semantics should exist if you were a true: "i only buy and sell retail" kind of guy. And guys who have and are inclined to spend that money should be able to if they want to.

Sorry for the salty post.
And for the Reference, i buy **** i want, i sell **** i don't want. Sue me.
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: happylacquer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 16:17:49
 If both parties know what it's worth then there isn't a problem  to me it seems. The only problem I can see is if either party was deceived by the value of the caps, but then again it raises the question of if someone really paid $600+ for a single cap or if that was the seller shilling himself up to screw with the market. Whatever the truth of the matter is, we can all agree it hurts 99% of the community for anything like $600 for one cap to be going on.


If one kind of caps get rare and in demand then whatever, that is fine. If someone has a dozen medium value caps they want to trade for one raffle only cap, that's fine. but I think we can all agree when individual caps start going for over 600 dollars, more than double the price of the most expensive Realforce I can find, that hurts everybody in the hobby except for the seller and encourages predatory behavior. Then you get guys hoarding stuff and refusing to sell anything for less than insane prices, and it stops being fun with keyboards and it might as well be a gold and silver forum
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: tigersharkdude on Mon, 09 January 2017, 16:40:51
Quote from: henz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 15:04:06

Lets take ops gid Reper he is trading right now, 2 days or so ago, he was asking for a war torn defender, now he is asking for something else, could it be so that you found out that there are _alot_ of them out there(and could score one for retail)? That you might want something more "valuable"?

And i saw some complaints in the "Whats it worth" thread, that there were some "lowballing offers" going on.

NONE of these semantics should exist if you were a true: "i only buy and sell retail" kind of guy. And guys who have and are inclined to spend that money should be able to if they want to.

Sorry for the salty post.
And for the Reference, i buy **** i want, i sell **** i don't want. Sue me.

No, I found out that the wartorn defender blue doesn't remotely match my setup. And for the low ball offers .... 2 hkp blanks for a Reaper .... no thanks
Title: Re: Serious question, has the negative stigma against upmarking artisans left ...
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 09 January 2017, 20:35:04
Let economics sort out the artisan market.