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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dante on Sun, 08 January 2017, 11:26:50

Title: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: dante on Sun, 08 January 2017, 11:26:50: Hi! :D

My coworker picked up a HHKB and we have a request:

Is it possible to take photos of your hands or otherwise describe how you are accessing the backspace/delete keys on your boards? The way we're doing it feels very non-ergonomic. Pinky on the function and then rotating your hand and using the ring finger to hit the delete key up on top? Sure you can use your thumb and then use the index finger but if you need to immediately use navigation then it gets weird.

I should know this by now but the HHKB is one of the boards I have the least amount of experience on. Part of me is "Yup - it's that crappy" but the other half of me is thinking "customs people are spending hundreds of dollars to use this layout they must have a better way."

Or are most of you flipping the DIP and moving FN elsewhere?
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: xondat on Sun, 08 January 2017, 11:47:44: I have Delete=BS, I use my pinky when typing normally to hit the backspace key. When using the delete key, I usually just move my hand and have my thumb on function and index on delete.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 08 January 2017, 12:09:25: I feel the most comfortable positions for Fn keys on the HHKB should be the traditional location of 'Alt' and 'Alt Gr'. The right-pinky on Fn design is not very convenient in my opinion, because I don't want to move away from the home row AND home column too much, and this right Fn has some problem.:

1. It's more natural to do thumb-Fn and middle-Tilde.
I flipped the DIP switch to make the original Delete to BS, and for Delete, I don't feel too natural to use pinky-Fn and then hit the top right corner key (Backtick/Tilde) with my index/middle finger.

2. To use the default navigation cluster designed by HHKB, one definitely has to move away from the home column.
One doesn't need to move away from the home row much on a 60% keyboard but to reach for the Fn key next to the R_Shift, there are two ways: twisting the wrist to the right or moving the position of the whole right wrist by 3+ columns. Twisting wrist is good because there's no need to look for the home column position again: you just twist you right wrist back. Moving wrist is bad because to get back to the home column position after reaching for the right Fn key, one has to search for the homing J key, and it is slow to reach by move the whole wrist. It is possible to use just the twist wrist method for the F1-F12 function keys, however, to use the default navigation cluster designed by HHKB, one has to move his right wrist, and twisting is not an option.

If I redesign the layout, there'll be two Fn keys and they will be either the pair of inner modifiers or outter modifiers on the space bar row. I can use the Fn key next to R_Shift for Windows key and 'Super' or other things in Linux. And I would remap the nav cluster to somewhere like WASD / IJKL / HJKL where I can use my thumbs to press Fn key and have my hands stay at the home row and home column.

HHKB JP is much better designed. Japan is a country where the best products are reserved for the countrymen. Look at the 0.25u gaps separating the left Fn and the nav cluster - yes, they have a nav cluster. It is just the unsolvable R_Shift problem if they include a nav cluster in such a small keyboard, and that not all users can get used to the ISO Enter.
(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)

Otherwise, the location of Fn key next to R_Shift is actually the perfect location for the upper arrow key in other form factors, e.g. 75%, 65%, 68%, the Cherry 1800.

P.s. I do kind of hardcore touch typing 50% of the time on HHKB2, i.e. I use blank black caps and I put the HHKB in a dark "keyboard drawer" and when I type, I put my hands inside this "keyboard drawer" to type.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: macguy80 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 17:32:05: Quote from: menuhin on Sun, 08 January 2017, 12:09:25

HHKB JP is much better designed. Japan is a country where the best products are reserved for the countrymen. Look at the 0.25u gaps separating the left Fn and the nav cluster - yes, they have a nav cluster. It is just the unsolvable R_Shift problem if they include a nav cluster in such a small keyboard, and that not all users can get used to the ISO Enter.
Show Image
(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)

I've never typed on an ISO board, but I don't think the Enter would be that big of a problem for me. For me, my problem with the JIS (JP) layout would be the itty bitty space bar, and that's not a HHKB-specific problem. :)
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: Polymer on Mon, 09 January 2017, 02:33:16: Not too many people don't dip switch to the backspace key (where \ is on the keyboard).

I use the right pinky fn but also my left thumb for FN...or I originally did that until I got used to the right pinky fn.

I agree that it isn't that convenient..but when you look at the FN keys they're all designed to be used with your right pinky on FN...

That also means windows key is only on the right side.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: davkol on Mon, 09 January 2017, 04:04:08: HHKB comes from unix background; prof. Wada is an emacs user. The keyboard originally didn't even have the Fn layer; that's PFU's invention to accommodate non-unix users (poorly IMHO).

Ctrl-H can be used for delete backwards, Ctrl-D for delete forward, Alt-D for delete a word forward etc.

How do *I* use ANSI HHKB/unix layout and the Backspace/Delete key in particular? I've grown fond of the "wide mod", that shifts right-hand-side symbols one column to the right to get more hand separation. Thus, pressing Backspace/Delete is not really different from pressing Tab.

The Backspace/Delete inconsistency is a legacy of some terminals, where these functions were implemented differently.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: henz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 04:06:45: ive recently become a fan of space function, buy a hasu controller and design the layers as you please.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 09 January 2017, 05:40:21: Quote from: davkol on Mon, 09 January 2017, 04:04:08
HHKB comes from unix background; prof. Wada is an emacs user. The keyboard originally didn't even have the Fn layer; that's PFU's invention to accommodate non-unix users (poorly IMHO).

Ctrl-H can be used for delete backwards, Ctrl-D for delete forward, Alt-D for delete a word forward etc.

How do *I* use ANSI HHKB/unix layout and the Backspace/Delete key in particular? I've grown fond of the "wide mod", that shifts right-hand-side symbols one column to the right to get more hand separation. Thus, pressing Backspace/Delete is not really different from pressing Tab.

The Backspace/Delete inconsistency is a legacy of some terminals, where these functions were implemented differently.

I've seen your posts on your "wide mod" - very unique and thinking-out-of-the-box mod. The problem is if I use other keyboards after getting used to this "wide mod", I have to switch back to symbols not in the middle of the keyboard layout again.

The 1u + 1.75u split (instead of the usual 1.75u + 1u split) of the R_Shift will benefit your "wide mod" even more. Unfortunately, not many 60% PCB support this split.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: davkol on Mon, 09 January 2017, 05:45:32: You can use Portable Keyboard Layout, xmodmap, Soarer's converter or stick to a portable programmable keyboard. It's preferable to swap homing keys too, though.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: funderburker on Mon, 09 January 2017, 05:59:10: Quote from: macguy80 on Sun, 08 January 2017, 17:32:05
Quote from: menuhin on Sun, 08 January 2017, 12:09:25

HHKB JP is much better designed. Japan is a country where the best products are reserved for the countrymen. Look at the 0.25u gaps separating the left Fn and the nav cluster - yes, they have a nav cluster. It is just the unsolvable R_Shift problem if they include a nav cluster in such a small keyboard, and that not all users can get used to the ISO Enter.
Show Image
(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)

I've never typed on an ISO board, but I don't think the Enter would be that big of a problem for me. For me, my problem with the JIS (JP) layout would be the itty bitty space bar, and that's not a HHKB-specific problem. :)

I'm in the process of making a keyboard JP layout except for the bottom row which would be 1u Fn / gap / 1u Alt /1.5 Win / 6 or 6.5u (depends what I can get) / 1.5 AltGr / gap / nav cluster.

I love my HHKB but am not willing to get a JIS just to try it out. And I don't need that crazy bottom row - if I get can get by with 61 keys then why I would need more? :D

EDIT: To be on topic - I've dip switched backspace and delete so I hit BS with pinky and Del with pinky and ring finger. That way middle and index fingers are ready to get back on arrow cluster.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: Sinzz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 18:46:30: Since you said while navigating:

with my pinky still on the FN key, i just swivel my hand so that my middle finger is where the delete key is and press.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: DRAZAH on Tue, 10 January 2017, 09:59:17: I have Backspace enabled. I also have a bad typing habit but its what works best for me. I rarely use my pinkys for anything. My left hand pinky really only hits the mods and my right hand pinky really does nothing. I normally just shift my hand over and use my middle or ringer finger for Backspace, very rarely do I ever use my pinky.
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: OfTheWild on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:01:01: Here i made a one-handed video clip... Isn't this how everyone does it?
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: xondat on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:05:56: Quote from: OfTheWild on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:01:01
Here i made a one-handed video clip... Isn't this how everyone does it?
exactly what i do
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: cynviloq on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:52:44: I have DIP 3, 4 and 5 set to ON and use AHK to remap my two keys to the right of the Space bar.

So my bottom row becomes (from L to R):
Fn, LAlt, Space, AppsKey, WIN

Delete is now BS and I use my pinky to access BS.

Now my Fn key becomes used like a Shift button, where I move my left pinky down to Fn and then access my function layer with my right hand.

I find this layout to be the best personally, because I access Home/End, PgUp/PgDn, and the Arrows quite a bit (I prefer TKL, but HHKB is king for portability and preferred for gaming when I don't access the additional 10-15% of the right side of the TKL board).
Title: Re: HHKB Zealots: GET OVER HERE
Post by: menuhin on Tue, 10 January 2017, 16:32:45: Quote from: OfTheWild on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:01:01
More
Here i made a one-handed video clip... Isn't this how everyone does it?

This is also how I access the BS and Delete. It's quite natural for me: for normal ANSI layout I use my ring finger to press the 2u Backspace key, and in HHKB, I adapted by using my pinky to reach for the 1.5u Backspace on row lower.
I use the thumb-middle finger to access Delete, it's much faster this way.