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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Budman on Thu, 26 January 2017, 06:04:33
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And it isn't called Topre.. ;D
For about 6 months I've been on a quest to move on from my trusty and famous Dell Quietkey RT7D5JTW (Thailand) keyboard I've used for about 4 years now. A few keyboards have come close but eventually it comes back on my desk. My motivation to move on are several-fold; Spacebar I feel has lost a bit of responsiveness (have to make sure to fully depress it), would like something more modern (tad smaller/flatter and maybe volume control), possibly illuminated as I work at night often but not a priority and time to retire any PS/2 devices (active -> usb adapter I have has been great though).
I've already tried probably 15 various keyboards. MX blue/browns (twice each), MX Red, Matias Quiet Pro, plus too many to list current membrane based and scissor switch keyboards. I've probably spent as much on gas as keyboards just going to all area stores.
Two nights ago while at Wal-Mart, I wandered to the keyboard section thinking they'd just have same old Logitech's best Buy has (they did), but in a very small PC "gaming" section I spotted my wonder I've never seen before but knew the brand. I was intrigued and bought it for $29.99 after reading the back. It has since blown my mind how close this feels to the Alps based Matias Quiet Click Pro I JUST had last week.
Steelseries Apex 100 https://steelseries.com/gaming-keyboards/apex-100 (https://steelseries.com/gaming-keyboards/apex-100)
Here it is next to my Dell Quietkey
[attach=1]
It is maybe a few mm wider than the Dell but not as long.
Using the nickel test method I measured my Dell as having between 65-70g all over. Maybe one or two slightly less than 65g. The spacebar measured at 70+g. The Apex 100 whole keyboard measured 50-55g on all keys except the enter-key and spacebar which both measured at 70+. Pressing keys very slowly down on the Apex they actuate VERY close to or right after the tactile bump. Whereas on the Quietkey I could go slow enough to pass the bump and not have a letter appear until it touches bottom. I don't know how Steelseries did it, but their dome works and basically feels like a slightly heavier MX Brown with a more prominent tactile bump. Like I said above already they feel to me almost exactly like the Matias Quiet Click switch on the Pro version I had last week. Even down to the very slight scratchiness.
Here is a picture of the actual Apex 100 switch:
[attach=2]
You can see it has some pretty solid clear stabilizers (this the backspace key) and some plastic gold colored lip over a slider. The actual membrane inside looks clear with a pointy dome-like thingy.
The keyboard feels solid too. About the same weight (maybe heavier) than the Quietkey. Same type of quality plastic. Very understated plain black too which is much appreciated considering it is considered a gaming keyboard (Anti-ghosting advertised). Here is a pic from the side to show the thickness.
[attach=3]
This keyboard is so good and feels as close to a mechanical that I've ever tried. Tactile mechanical enthusiasts or anyone looking for the best rubber dome keyboard should seriously consider getting this board. The only disappointment is the illumination. It is more of a blue glow around the keys rather than the keys themselves. I find it actually makes it harder to see the keys in the dark with this illumination on.
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If you like this sort of thing you might well be interested in what's basically the exact opposite thing: switches that feel like rubber domes but actually ARE mechanical. Closest to this I've found so far are ITW magnetic valve and Alps SKCM neon green.
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Ooh those yellow ring things. In my head they're always associated with the Chinese brand Fuhlen, because they're the first ones I saw using them.
Fun fact: sometimes (not always!), Fuhlen would pair those rings with a (non-spring-based, not like Topre) form of capacitive sensing. If your Apex 100 is running a capsense membrane similar to Fuhlen's SC950, that might explain why it feels like it activates higher up, and how it's implementing >2KRO (if its marketing isn't just being misleading).
Lemme see if I can find a picture of the Apex 100's membrane somewhere online, to compare to pictures of the SC950's...
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I've found a mechanical feeling best rubber dome keyboard ever
And it isn't called Topre.. ;D
It has surprisingly good tactile feedback for a $30 rubber dome keyboard, but it feels like mushy garbage compared to a Novatouch.
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It has surprisingly good tactile feedback for a $30 rubber dome keyboard, but it feels like mushy garbage compared to a Novatouch.
I agree (although I've never tried a Topre). Although "mushy garbage to a Topre", it is in NO way that feeling to other dome keyboards. I am seriously amazed how close these feel to the Matias Quiet switches I had a week before I got this keyboard, but with a more "rubber" feeling bottoming out. I've never had O-rings on any MX Browns I've had but I imagine this is what it would feel like depending on the softness of the rings one got. except the bump is more felt in this compared to Cherry.
I've been typing away on this for a week now and I fly on it. I LOVE this as a replacement to my Quietkey. Just what I was looking for: lighter activation, modern usb, some media controls and very solid/heavy board like the Dell was compared to flimsy K120 types.
The backlighting is more of a "gamers cool" than practical. I can see keys less with it on in the dark as it doesn't light the individual keys but more or just lights under them. And the only drawbacks are it is so big like my old Dell. I would love a more condensed version of this keyboard like the CM Storm TK layout. I'd buy several!
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(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=87249.0;attach=158661;image)
It looks like a little shark jaw. :?)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/40/ed/db/40eddb13983f2f0c77c4061ba2f22259.jpg)
Thanks for posting about this good-quality RD board you liked, Budman. I've posted raves about several RDs myself—including the Thai-made RT7D5JTW you mention, and two other types (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72595.msg1844206#msg1844206) I considered comparable.
A positive reference to an RD is bound to draw sniffs from the MK purists. But GH isn't just about mechanicals; it's a site for "keyboard enthusiasts", about all aspects of KB technology, design and history.
I enjoy having some good RDs (including a Topre, LOL) to alternate with my MKs. After clicking and clanking away for a while, it's refreshing to type on something so quiet, yet defined. Then when I return to MKs, I do so with a new appreciation for their qualities. Vive la différence.
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If you like this sort of thing you might well be interested in what's basically the exact opposite thing: switches that feel like rubber domes but actually ARE mechanical. Closest to this I've found so far are ITW magnetic valve and Alps SKCM neon green.
Woo, Chyros, a bit on the condescending side today, aren't we? :?)
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If you like this sort of thing you might well be interested in what's basically the exact opposite thing: switches that feel like rubber domes but actually ARE mechanical. Closest to this I've found so far are ITW magnetic valve and Alps SKCM neon green.
Woo, Chyros, a bit on the condescending side today, aren't we? :?)
That wasn't meant to be condescending at all Oo .
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This thread is absolute gold for me, since my friend always gets buttmad when I say I hate his quiet clicks because (IMO) they mostly feel like mushy/cheap rubberdomes, while he thinks they're the closest mechanical switch to Topre.
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OP i will both give this a try and blame you if I don't like it!
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If you like this sort of thing you might well be interested in what's basically the exact opposite thing: switches that feel like rubber domes but actually ARE mechanical...
Woo, Chyros, a bit on the condescending side today, aren't we? :?)
That wasn't meant to be condescending at all Oo .
Ah. It seemed like you were being ironic.
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SKCM Neon Green is rubber dome-y? I don't think so. No musyiness or anything, just a bigger tactile bump. Between SKCM Orange/Salmon and SKCM Brown.
If really you don't like them that much I would be interested in Project L :p
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OP i will both give this a try and blame you if I don't like it!
:D Buy at Wal-Mart as they have a great return policy if you don't.
I just tested ghosting at Microsoft's test. I got 14 keys pressed at once to show! So not only does this make a great typist board, it would be a very good low cost gaming keyboard for those not wanting to go mechanical.
I hate to really sound like I am selling this (I am NOT affiliated in any way to Steelseries), but I just wanted to share it with everyone since it is so obscure and I could find nothing on it really while searching the net. I am seriously just that impressed.
But honestly, I am not even sure I will stick with it long term as I mentioned I was hoping to go more modern/smaller than my QuietKey. I've been testing a bunch of scissor-switch modern (smaller) sized board too lately as I want to bring mouse more closer to me for daily driving. This in a Storm TK layout would be my ideal (or even 75% size).
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It has surprisingly good tactile feedback for a $30 rubber dome keyboard, but it feels like mushy garbage compared to a Novatouch.
I've never had O-rings on any MX Browns I've had but I imagine this is what it would feel like depending on the softness of the rings one got. except the bump is more felt in this compared to Cherry.
Yes, totally agree. I *like* the way my MX Brown kbd feels more than the Apex, but the latter has a more pronounced bump and I'm more accurate with it.
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If you like this sort of thing you might well be interested in what's basically the exact opposite thing: switches that feel like rubber domes but actually ARE mechanical. Closest to this I've found so far are ITW magnetic valve and Alps SKCM neon green.
Some might disagree but I always found that Matias Quiet Clicks kind of feel like that because the dampening pushes the slider down slightly and the bump is right at the top.
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Hmm, the blue backlight can be turned off, right?
I don't even know why I want to get this since I just got an AEK2.
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Yes, totally agree. I *like* the way my MX Brown kbd feels more than the Apex, but the latter has a more pronounced bump and I'm more accurate with it.
Ohh you picked one up (Apex)? I'm assuming you also found it at local Wal-Mart?
I too am darn accurate on the Apex - in fact I have scored my highest WPM on it compared to all the others I've tried.
So you being able to compare side-to-side, am I right it feels like MX Brown? My last experience with browns was months ago so not as fresh compared to the Matias I had recently. This is like softened bottoming Browns (no clackity noise when bottoming) and better bump. Which coincidentally is also how I would describe Matias Quiet Click.
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Budman, how much was this in store at a walmart. I ask because there are none close to me (thankfully) but if they're a lot cheaper than online (29.99 + shipping which ends up coming to 39.99 or $41 on Amazon or eBay) I guess I could hit one up next time i'm in range of one.
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Budman, how much was this in store at a walmart. I ask because there are none close to me (thankfully) but if they're a lot cheaper than online (29.99 + shipping which ends up coming to 39.99 or $41 on Amazon or eBay) I guess I could hit one up next time i'm in range of one.
$29.99 + tax. I have several Wal-Mart by me in driving distance, but only one had them on the shelf (They had 10 when I first noticed them but down to 4 last night when I stopped there). Hmm, for some reason I guess you have to get lucky they carry it by you as I just checked and you can't ship to another store for FREE like other stuff they sell but are out at your store. So I guess it was fate for me..
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Steelseries-Steel-Series-Apex-100-Gaming-Keyboard/146255788
I really want you to try it as I respect your past opinions to GH and know you'd give honest review. And yes, backlighting can be turned off, which is how I have it.
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Budman, how much was this in store at a walmart. I ask because there are none close to me (thankfully) but if they're a lot cheaper than online (29.99 + shipping which ends up coming to 39.99 or $41 on Amazon or eBay) I guess I could hit one up next time i'm in range of one.
$29.99 + tax. I have several Wal-Mart by me in driving distance, but only one had them on the shelf (They had 10 when I first noticed them but down to 4 last night when I stopped there). Hmm, for some reason I guess you have to get lucky they carry it by you as I just checked and you can't ship to another store for FREE like other stuff they sell but are out at your store. So I guess it was fate for me..
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Steelseries-Steel-Series-Apex-100-Gaming-Keyboard/146255788
I really want you to try it as I respect your past opinions to GH and know you'd give honest review. And yes, backlighting can be turned off, which is how I have it.
Hmm, well to be completely honest... I might pay the extra 10 bucks to not have to walk into a Walmart... ;D
I don't think I've even posted that much! am I already known around here :eek:
I'll keep it in mind, might wait until next time I'm near a walmart and try to look around, if not I'll maybe grab one on Amazon. But, hopefully is gets stocked by Prime sometime soon. And this comes at an opportune time, as I was thinking of getting a Type Heaven since I really like my HHKB Pro's feel but am going a little crazy without all the extra keys. But, all the ones that were available on Prime are sold out again and it's only 3rd party sellers now. Decisions, decisions...
Too bad you haven't tried any Topre to compare it with... I won't lie, my Topre feels kinda like a Dell board I was given at work once and stopped using, but this is stable and doesn't bottom out in a sucky way like the Dell did.
edit: NM, my local microcenter has over 8 in stock same price as Walmart. I'll go pick one up tomorrow.
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Ohh you picked one up (Apex)? I'm assuming you also found it at local Wal-Mart?
So you being able to compare side-to-side, am I right it feels like MX Brown? My last experience with browns was months ago so not as fresh compared to the Matias I had recently. This is like softened bottoming Browns (no clackity noise when bottoming) and better bump. Which coincidentally is also how I would describe Matias Quiet Click.
I got one as an emergency backup kebyoard at MicroCenter for $30 on the day my Ducky's mini usb port decided to retreat a half inch inside the case.
It's firmer, but less "clean" feeling, than MX Brown. Or maybe it's just the more noticeable bump that makes it seem firmer.
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SKCM Neon Green is rubber dome-y? I don't think so. No musyiness or anything, just a bigger tactile bump. Between SKCM Orange/Salmon and SKCM Brown.
If really you don't like them that much I would be interested in Project L :p
The force curve is very similar to that of a rubber dome but it's still an Alps switch so it has a "mechanical rubber dome" feel
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I just read that Steelseries has announced a newer version of this keyboard - the Apex 150.
https://steelseries.com/gaming-keyboards/apex-150
I was SO excited as I was hoping it would be a slimmer version of the 100 I like so much above. But alas it looks basically exactly the same and dimensions. They appear to have slightly improved the rubber dome switch (that they now call "Quick Tension") with a rigid iron steel plate. Also looks like true backlighting/RGB now with shine through the lettering. Plus it is spill proof keyboard.
These improvements all seemed geared more to gamer's so nothing here for me. I again was looking for a more modern sized version (slimmer and not as wide) as the Apex 100 felt huge to me - Like a Model M big. The Apex 100 is still the best feeling RD I've ever used though but if I am going RD I want smaller than the QuietKey I had.
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Too bad you haven't tried any Topre to compare it with... I won't lie, my Topre feels kinda like a Dell board I was given at work once and stopped using, but this is stable and doesn't bottom out in a sucky way like the Dell did.
The problem with both Topre AND Dell Quiet-Key is the travel distance is too long (for me.) I don't need something as abrupt as Scissor switches but definitely tighter than Speed switches.
I would try Topre again if they offered speed domes. Their newer boards have APC but I've read some reports that it can cause chattering. Further, those foam blocks they sell to reduce travel distance aren't the most effective.
I agree the Dell Quietkey feels like Topre minus some stability issues but lets get real. A fairer comparison would be against a $10-$20 Topre membrane keyboard which they do not make.
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I ended up buying an Apex 100. Unfortunately it's actually a 2KRO membrane board, with a gaming optimized matrix - it fails certain key combos, like 4-5-7-8 on the numpad and Ctrl-Win-Alt for instance.
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I ended up buying an Apex 100. Unfortunately it's actually a 2KRO membrane board, with a gaming optimized matrix - it fails certain key combos, like 4-5-7-8 on the numpad and Ctrl-Win-Alt for instance.
Sad. My cheapo Dell has plenty of roll over; and it's several years old. There is no excuse for failing key combos with membrane keyboards in 2017.
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Are there any other brands with these Quick Tension switches in TKL size?
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There are several mechani-membrame keyboards coming to market right now. Razer also has one. Good to see improved rubber domes make a comeback.
This Apex 100 is a great find. The Apex 150 seems only to offer a single rainbow faux RGB backlighting, and charge $20 more. Sad.
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Even rubber dome keyboards are mechanicals by definition. So, if you find your holy grail, well, good for you. I can't use a full size keyboard, it is so bad for my carpal tunnel syndrome, but well, you should be younger, after some years maybe you will return into search mode.
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Even rubber dome keyboards are mechanicals by definition. So, if you find your holy grail, well, good for you. I can't use a full size keyboard, it is so bad for my carpal tunnel syndrome, but well, you should be younger, after some years maybe you will return into search mode.
Rubber domes aren’t Mechanical by definition.
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Even rubber dome keyboards are mechanicals by definition. So, if you find your holy grail, well, good for you. I can't use a full size keyboard, it is so bad for my carpal tunnel syndrome, but well, you should be younger, after some years maybe you will return into search mode.
Rubber domes aren’t Mechanical by definition.
This topic has inflamed ardent defenders of one position against those with a different point of view, on many discussion so far. A mechanism, even if it is based on elastic materials, is a mechanism. Even though, it is generally accepted here that rubber domes are not the kind of boards we like to call mechanical keyboards, however, the fact is that any keyboard with moving parts (mechanisms) are mechanical devices. They may not fit the narrow definition we use for our input devices here, but they are mechanical devices by all means.
In the other hand, a post on rubber domes does not fit well in a board like Geek Hack, but I tend to feel that we are growing into a more inclusive community lately, maybe I am wrong though.
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I really like monterey dome with slider. Very snappy :) I found the dell quiet key you are talking about kind of typical. Maybe I just like extremes.
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I really like monterey dome with slider. Very snappy :) I found the dell quiet key you are talking about kind of typical. Maybe I just like extremes.
Monterey dome with slider is definitely among the best of them IMO. As I recall I rated them 8/10, just below BTC (and Scorpius) dome with slider.
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Yes, RDs can be great—but remember, a major diff between them and MKs is that they wear much more quickly, and can start feeling inconsistent after only a few months of serious use. (I can't tell you how many Microsoft Natural Keyboards I went through before I discovered MKs.)
So if there's a type of vintage RD you want to use regularly, it's worth the time, and bit of extra dough, to find a NIB one.
This isn't as hard as it seems; they turn up regularly. For example, as I write, on eBay has Several NIB Dell QuietKeys (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xnib+dell+quietkey.TRS0&_nkw=nib+dell+quietkey&_sacat=58058) for as little as $18.95 shipped; and here's an IBM KB-7993 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IBM-Aptiva-Keyboard-Black-KB-7993/332480095785) (similar to the KB-7953 in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOcoxhAmbU)—nice sound, huh?) for $30 shipped (though there may be other, similar p/n's for even less; I haven't looked). NIB Dell AT101W's appear less regularly, but they do appear; I found one myself last year for $35 shipped.
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Yes, RDs can be great—but remember, a major diff between them and MKs is that they wear much more quickly, and can start feeling inconsistent after only a few months of serious use. (I can't tell you how many Microsoft Natural Keyboards I went through before I discovered MKs.)
So if there's a type of vintage RD you want to use regularly, it's worth the time, and bit of extra dough, to find a NIB one.
This isn't as hard as it seems; they turn up regularly. For example, as I write, on eBay has Several NIB Dell QuietKeys (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xnib+dell+quietkey.TRS0&_nkw=nib+dell+quietkey&_sacat=58058) for as little as $18.95 shipped; and here's an IBM KB-7993 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IBM-Aptiva-Keyboard-Black-KB-7993/332480095785) (similar to the KB-7953 in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOcoxhAmbU)—nice sound, huh?) for $30 shipped (though there may be other, similar p/n's for even less; I haven't looked). NIB Dell AT101W's appear less regularly, but they do appear; I found one myself last year for $35 shipped.
biggest difference is that they don't actuate before bottoming out imo. this is why typing on most mechs seems so much more relaxed than typing on most rubber dome. but some domes are so snappy (like BTC) that you don't notice it as much.
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I really like monterey dome with slider. Very snappy :) I found the dell quiet key you are talking about kind of typical. Maybe I just like extremes.
If you like extremes than maybe youll like this Keytronic Lifetime rubber dome keyboard I have. New in Box. It seems like they started with a very high weight keypress so it will last longer as it slowly degrades with use.
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I really like monterey dome with slider. Very snappy :) I found the dell quiet key you are talking about kind of typical. Maybe I just like extremes.
Monterey dome with slider is definitely among the best of them IMO. As I recall I rated them 8/10, just below BTC (and Scorpius) dome with slider.
Hey Chyros, I loved that video.
Anyways. I have a New in Box Logitech UltraX Premium scissor switch keyboard that Id like to send you to review. Let me know if you are interested.
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I really like monterey dome with slider. Very snappy :) I found the dell quiet key you are talking about kind of typical. Maybe I just like extremes.
Monterey dome with slider is definitely among the best of them IMO. As I recall I rated them 8/10, just below BTC (and Scorpius) dome with slider.
Hey Chyros, I loved that video.
Anyways. I have a New in Box Logitech UltraX Premium scissor switch keyboard that Id like to send you to review. Let me know if you are interested.
I might at some point, but for the moment I'm REALLY booked xD .
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Just to be clear. The last two offers were not attempts at sales. They were attempts at giving away freebies.
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Just to be clear. The last two offers were not attempts at sales. They were attempts at giving away freebies.
I figured, which is really kind of you, but I'd feel like I'd need to review it in a reasonable amount of time, which is at the moment completely impossible xD .