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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 03:07:26

Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 03:07:26: hello everyone,

At first thank you for so great community, with so unique content about keyboards and mouse devices, for last two days I got lot of info from here about switches, keyboard types and user's opinions, and as a result of this right now I have some dilemma.

for last two years I used Scissor switches, it were several keyboards from logitech - Logitech Ultra X
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OIJCs7J8L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
what I bought in bulk few years ago when their quality were pretty high. I was happy about it: they have small footprint, not wobble and keyboard has Standard layout, so it's good for touch typing when you have to use lot of shortcuts as well. but now, when I found your great resource ;) I found tenkeyless keyboards, what I liked a lot, because they still have standard layout - but don't have wasted space, and I have shortest distance to my mouse, what I use alot. I liked this IDEA and went further, until didn't find HHKB. I tried to change layout at my current keyboard, and very liked this idea as well. So here are some questions:

1. at first is here any person, who changed long time used Scissor switches, to topre? and how happy you are about this? and I mean not typewriters, but peoples who also actively use shortcuts and text navigation.
2. I'am programmer, and mostly windows user + vmware user with different linux distros, so I'am pretty often use page up down insert/delete and arrow keys - I liked idea when I can use it from the home row, and tried to convert my current keyboard to this mode, but my pinky very soon became very tired. is here anyone person who actively use photoshop, eclipse or visual studio and happy while using it with their HHKB? I'll try to notice again, I'am not type writer, I'am programmer who use fancy IDEs with lot of shortcuts, so while writing texts I'am also using shortcuts actively with FN+ buttons, will this layout work for me or very soon I got problems with my wrist?
3. and the last question, what is related in some way to first one, as alternative to HHKB I'am looking now into Apple Aluminium Keyboard (http://www.zcover.com/IMAGES/Keyboard/Apple/AppleKeyboard_Wireless.jpg)
it's very compact, use Scissor switches and looks almost like HHKB. maybe anyone HHKB user tried it?

hope to get answers from you :)

P.S.: sorry for my english, it's not my native language, so maybe my questions are hard to understand, but hope you will
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 03 February 2010, 03:41:07: Welcome!

Re (2) You can make the key to the left of the space bar work as a Fn key on the HHKB. That way you can operate it with your left thumb easily and access the 'Fn'ed functions like arrows with fingers on your right hand. That should solve any problem with the pinky getting tired.

Re (3) Have you been reading this (http://hbfs.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/what-the-happy-hacking-keyboard-should-have-been/)? If you like scissor switches it looks worth trying out, but note some comments on that page about driver issues. I also dislike the way the function keys don't line up with the number keys, meaning it will be difficult to touch-type them.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 03:47:19: thank you for your answer :)

I know about DIP and FN redirection, but it seems to disable windows button right? which is pretty handy as well in windows env. but I got you and here is one more question to you personally. seems you have both keyboards. what is your lucky/primary keyboard now? Realforce or HHKB? and what is your working environment? so what you are doing with it?
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 03 February 2010, 04:02:58: Yes, it's a shame, you do lose one Windows key that way, but it's worth it I think.
The Realforce is my favourite/most used keyboard. It just feels slightly more luxurious. But if I had bought the HHKB first I would have been happy with that alone.
I don't do any intensive typing, just fun stuff on the PC.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 05:30:01: Quote from: test157;155839
1. at first is here any person, who changed long time used Scissor switches, to topre? and how happy you are about this? and I mean not typewriters, but peoples who also actively use shortcuts and text navigation.

I'm not sure whether you are referring to the usability of the HHKB layout, or the feel of the Topres vs the Scissor Switch. I can tell you that the Topre will beat any scissor (and even some mechanical) keyboards for quality of feel. The HHKB layout is great, I have no issues with it with anything, either Windows or Linux.

Quote
2. I'am programmer, and mostly windows user + vmware user with different linux distros, so I'am pretty often use page up down insert/delete and arrow keys - I liked idea when I can use it from the home row, and tried to convert my current keyboard to this mode, but my pinky very soon became very tired. is here anyone person who actively use photoshop, eclipse or visual studio and happy while using it with their HHKB? I'll try to notice again, I'am not type writer, I'am programmer who use fancy IDEs with lot of shortcuts, so while writing texts I'am also using shortcuts actively with FN+ buttons, will this layout work for me or very soon I got problems with my wrist?

It's hard to say. The HHKB layout is really optimized for the likes of Emacs/Vim. If you make extensive use of F-keys and PgUp/PgDn, you be better off with the slightly bigger Realforce 87U with dedicated keys.

Quote
3. and the last question, what is related in some way to first one, as alternative to HHKB I'am looking now into Apple Aluminium Keyboard
Show Image
(http://www.zcover.com/IMAGES/Keyboard/Apple/AppleKeyboard_Wireless.jpg)

it's very compact, use Scissor switches and looks almost like HHKB. maybe anyone HHKB user tried it?

Tried one, has nothing on the HHKB. Apparently the chiclet keys have given many a person sore wrists.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: leos on Wed, 03 February 2010, 06:14:38: i have use some time the macally icekey (http://www.amazon.com/Macally-USB-Slim-Keyboard-ICEKEY/dp/B00006HYP6) keyboard. It was a pleasure to type on it BUT it is no Topre. Sscissor switches is ok if you wanna type realy fast for a sort time but is no compare to a Topre feeling. Trying out worth it.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: meltie on Wed, 03 February 2010, 06:31:13: I once got both a Logitech UltraX and an Apple aluminium keyboard (not the compact one, fullsize lauyout). I found the Logitech switches alright and the Apple switches considerably worse to type on. Both are no match for Topre, though.

With emacs, HHKB is great for programming. Considering that you will use it in Eclipse etc., I would recommend the Topre Realforce 87U over anything Apple.

Of course you could use emacs bindings in Eclipse and be happy with the HHKB, but since Eclipse is not the only application you use, this idea is probably useless :-)
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 03 February 2010, 07:04:33: If you do a lot of typing and command-line work, you might be interested in an HHKB. I've heard that they put most of the functions around the home row so you don't have to reach off the keyboard as often.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 07:59:08: Quote from: microsoft windows;155875
If you do a lot of typing and command-line work, you might be interested in an HHKB. I've heard that they put most of the functions around the home row so you don't have to reach off the keyboard as often.

yeah, I do lot of work in console, but via SSH from window managers. so as I understood, Realforce 87 is a way to go here for me - but more opinions are welcome, if someone have so experience ;)
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 10:41:16: Quote from: ripster;155928
I'd wait for the HHKB3 or get a Realforce. I need the arrow keys for photoshop and couldn't adjust to using a function key for such a commonly used keystroke.

do you have some info when HHKB3 will arrive? I contacted elite keyboards and they know nothing about HHKB3 or about Realforce 88U release dates or even that they will at all produced.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 12:15:47: so no happy Photoshop user here with HHKB? still can't decide what to take :-/
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 12:26:37: Quote from: ripster;155966
Well, I don't know about you but I'm often mousing and using the keyboard with one hand when on Photoshop/Lightroom. No dedicated arrow keys = major pain in the ass.

hmm....just tried to use HKKB arrow keys with left hand + index finger at FN key and other fingers at arrow keys, pretty handy. or you have to press something else with arrow keys in the same time?
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 12:27:03: If there is an arrow key equipped HHKB, it will probably complement the current layout and not replace it. Replacing the current configuration entirely would just be missing the point completely in favor of appealing to the mass market.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: alipstadt on Wed, 03 February 2010, 19:07:59: I own both compact Apples and the Japanese HHKB. If this is a keyboard that is being paired with a netbook or similar for more normal sized keys, go for the Apple USB or for a Cherry G84. If this is being used at home, or at least wont be spending time in a bag, get the HHKB or perhaps a Filco Tenkeyless Brown/Blue as a cheaper option.

As far as the Japanese HHKB: it has its tradeoffs, no USB hub (even the Apple has this), small space bar (I don't mind) and some people actually prefer the HHKB arrowkeyless layout to one with arrows.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT GET THE BT APPLE COMPACT.

Especially if it is going in a bag. It is the only Bluetooth device that I have ever managed to kill (ok, there was an A2DP headset in the rain) it has no manual *on* switch so it will turn on at random (this can be fun if you are not using it with your laptop, but have BT enabled). Also, the USB version packs notably *smaller* and has a well thought out hub.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 19:13:46: Quote from: alipstadt;156078
I own both compact Apples and the Japanese HHKB. If this is a keyboard that is being paired with a netbook or similar for more normal sized keys, go for the Apple USB or for a Cherry G84. If this is being used at home, or at least wont be spending time in a bag, get the HHKB or perhaps a Filco Tenkeyless Brown/Blue as a cheaper option.

As far as the Japanese HHKB: it has its tradeoffs, no USB hub (even the Apple has this), small space bar (I don't mind) and some people actually prefer the HHKB arrowkeyless layout to one with arrows.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT GET THE BT APPLE COMPACT.

Especially if it is going in a bag. It is the only Bluetooth device that I have ever managed to kill (ok, there was an A2DP headset in the rain) it has no manual *on* switch so it will turn on at random (this can be fun if you are not using it with your laptop, but have BT enabled). Also, the USB version packs notably *smaller* and has a well thought out hub.

I will use it at home, will not take in a bag. can you say in what enviroment do you use your HKBB? windows linux? some coding IDE or design? how often do you use arrow keys, F1-F12 home keys e.t.c.? how handy it's for you compared to Filco tenkeyless?

Do you see that you are doing all things faster with HKBB? or just about the same speed?
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 22:06:32: Quote from: ripster;155972
Looks like you may be right. I went back and searched for Sandy's post where he talked about HHKB3.

Funny guy. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=149705&postcount=2525)

But - are you calling the Japanese model for the Masses or the Divine People?

BTW - I have successfully gotten the search term "HHKB3" to #2 on Google and #1 on Bing. They gotta do one eventually especially if Ms Keyboard is right and clones appear in 2010.

One other thing to note on the HHKB Pro J (Japanese) is that the arrow keys follow some Japanese standard layout, sorry but I forget the name for it. Actually the whole board is a standard Japanese layout other than the Ctrl and ESC key.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7701&stc=1&d=1265255298)

Now take a look at my MD01B0:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7702&stc=1&d=1265255332)

You will note the same arrow key layout and really the only difference is in the bottom row. HHKB Pro J -> Left side Fn, HH and Meta keys instead of Ctrl like on the MD01BO. HHKB Pro J -> Right side Fn key instead of Ctrl.

Pretty much all of the small keyboards I see on Yahoo Japan have the same layout and many of them came out before the HHKB Pro J did including my MD01B0. Like I mentioned earlier the layout has a spec but I don't remember it right off the top of my head.

Also one of the other differences is that my MD01B0 has the larger language keys and the HHKB Pro J has the smaller keys which from what I understand the standard allows for. I think I read somewhere the boards with the larger keys are called thumb boards because the keys can be easily hit with the thumb and normally at least on newer boards they have smaller space bars than what is on my MD01B0 but my NEO (89U) has the small space bar as well as the large language (Muhenkan, Henkan & Kana) keys.
Title: Is here anyone who came from Scissor to Topre switches?
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 03 February 2010, 22:38:03: I think you are right JIS-(some number) I see it quite often in the Yahoo listings with the small keyboards. And also quite a few of them have the arrow key cluster moved down like in that toshiba laptop keyboard picture if they have room in the case that is otherwise they push them up like on the HHKB Pro J and my MD01B0.