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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: whininggit on Fri, 05 February 2010, 02:03:53

Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: whininggit on Fri, 05 February 2010, 02:03:53
Yesterday evening, I decided to do a key stem swap between my Cherry G80-3000LSCGB (MX blue) and Compaq MX-11800. In all it took about 3.5 hours - a bit fatiguing by the end but nothing major. I had to leave 3 keys as blues - decided upon the key to the left of 1, Caps Lock and Num Lock. Unsure whether I like the grey space bar switch.

All I can say is that the browns feel much more at home in the G80-3000 than they did in the Compaq. At times, the tactile bump was difficult to feel in the Compaq whereas it is definitely noticeable in the G80-3000. Maybe it's placebo effect, I don't know. What I do know for definite is that the sound is very different. Even though both are Cherry boards and of similar construction, the clacking is lower in pitch and slightly louder on the Cherry G80-3000. The only difference I can see is in the key caps. The Compaq uses PBT caps whereas the G80-3000s are POM - but additionally, the Compaq keys are thinner, or at least the walls of the cap are, and I can see that without needing to measure.

As for the blues, they seem good in either board.

Criticise Cherry's build quality all you like (I've seen worse), but you'll have to give it to them that they know how to design a keyboard to perfectly match their switches. The switches seem to be pretty solid little things too - compared to the rather delicate simplified Alps (I'm talking modding and not about normal usage).

I'm thinking now that I possibly wouldn't enjoy browns in a Filco, since they use thinner keycaps than Cherry right?

I remembered another thing I noticed - the springs in both keyboards looked the same size, but they were different colours. The springs from the MX brown Compaq board had a bronze/gold tint to them whereas those from the MX blue switches in the Cherry board were bright silver.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 07:50:37
Another has joined my legion...
 
I think the better feel is due to the keycaps.  I bought a G80-3000 with browns from Datacal, and it's my faovrite 'board (I just wish it were a little smaller to fit on my desk at work).  We need to push Majestouch to get the G80-18xxHUMUS now.
 
That said, Filcos are pretty good.  I use one at work, and I love it.  They're easier to come by, too.  I do like the Cherry caps on the Filco as I think the thinner Filco caps take away from feel some, but they aren't horrible.  If you have the space to use the 3000, just get one from Datacal.com.  I think they are on sale right now, too.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: whininggit on Fri, 05 February 2010, 10:35:04
What is the logic behind the considerably stronger spring for the space bar? It seems common for Cherry boards to have this i.e. same stem shape as regular keys, but a stronger spring. Is it to ensure that it has enough resistance against the heavier space bar key, or is it because people actually prefer the space bar to be heavier?

The green clicky MX is heavier than the blues, but it wasn't especially noticeable nor was I making a lot of typos. With the browns though, it does feel a lot stiffer and I was missing spaces very often.

I've now swapped it with the print screen key - and I'm typing well again.

I don't have any linear stems to play with, but has anybody tried a linear stem in the space bar, and how does it feel? I'm not sure of the value of the space bar switch being tactile.

Another thought - what is the proper way to type space - left thumb or right? I'm not going to change my typing style, but I notice that Cherry offset the switch to the right, and most shiny space bars seem to be shiny on the right. Yet split ergonomic keyboards have left and right space bars...
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 10:38:59
The 3000 from Datacal has just a brown in the spacebar, but on those 'boards with a grey, I just swap it out with Pause/Break or something.  I "space" with my right.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: SLM on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:27:18
I just popped the space bar off my new G80-3000 LSCRC and it has a green click switch  which is offset to the right some.  

I remember from typing class that both thumbs are used to operate the space bar.  Right now I can't remember which one for which times but it something like if the last key is pushed with a finger on the right hand then the left does the space and vice versa.  I dunno, I don't type that much so I usually use my right thumb and I'm left handed.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:29:04
Those Compaq keyboards don't really feel amazing.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:36:55
That's because you're throwing your ham-fisted Model M technique at it. Just like criticism, you need to finesse Cherry browns. Be gentle, but demanding. They're like a beautiful woman you adore and cherish. Model M's are more like tough, biker chicks - you gotta slap 'em around a bit.* Cherry browns you take for picnics in a secluded meadow while gnoshing on wine and cheese and make sweet lo... ahem... Model Ms you bang in a back alley in your mom's '72 Dodge Dart Swinger. In other words, they're not the same thing.
 
That said, the Compaq is not the finest Cherry brown specimen, but it's a good tester.
 
 
 
 
 
 
*I would never condone hitting a woman. ++
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
++ But you can sure shake the **** out 'em!
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:40:37
Those Compaq keyboards are anything but beautiful.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:41:52
It's what's on the inside that counts.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:59:01
Quote
All I can say is that the browns feel much more at home in the G80-3000 than they did in the Compaq
One of the factors in the good feel of a board is how tight the mechanical tolerances are. A screwed-in PC board is far nicer to the feel than a board simply held in place.

Of course, the best test is the ricercar flex.
(http://geekhack.org/image.php?u=1884&dateline=1259468770&type=profile)
If the chassis don't flex, you have a solid feel.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 05 February 2010, 19:21:00
Amen brother Ricecar.  The size of the actual PCB itself affects the flex in the keyboard.  I couldn't stand my MX8100 (huge PCB, poorly held in place by plastic spacers) but my Ricecar g86 is as tight as it gets.  The g86 is what a good brown cherry board *should* feel like.

I also experienced the same thing.  When it comes to cherry browns, the keycap makes all the difference.  Thin MX11800 keycaps are clacky, high pitched.  If you put the black keycaps on them, they get lower pitched, and make the board feel somewhat different.

I was thinking of doing the same thing, take a stack of cherry blue switches and put them into my MX11800, since I love the formfactor of it (almost like tenkeyless in width).  Of course you can't find any boards with PCB mounted blue cherries nowadays since the g80-3000LSCRC is totally backordered.

Quote from: ricercar;156518
One of the factors in the good feel of a board is how tight the mechanical tolerances are. A screwed-in PC board is far nicer to the feel than a board simply held in place.
  • My SPOS Cherry brown response is tight, because there's no play in the PC board, because it's screwed down into the chassis/enclosure. If the case don't move, the keys are firmly grounded.
  • My 6955HPUS Cherry brown response was ****ty, because the PC board was simply held in place with pressure from plastic spacers. A few match sticks added between top and bottom pressure points stabilized the board against the enclosure, and makes a WORLD of difference. Now the keys are immobile.

Of course, the best test is the ricercar flex.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/image.php?u=1884&dateline=1259468770&type=profile)

If the chassis don't flex, you have a solid feel.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: Keyboard Aficionado on Fri, 05 February 2010, 23:29:28
This thread might just be the "straw that broke the blue cherry's back" when it comes to my first MX keyboard. Browns are seeming more and more reasonable every day... Does the blue switch actually have a 2-piece slider, and that's what produces the click? If so, would it be reasonable to assume that more moving parts across the same force curve = different distribution of resistance?

Not sure if I'm wording that right. I mean like, the blue has that "slider inside the slider" which catches the click leaf and then falls down, producing the click. I would think that this (an extra part, sliding around) would either make the switch feel less "solid" or reduce the spike in the force curve, or both...

Is the leaf any different blue vs. brown, or is it just the slider?

they have the same springs, but I'm to understand that the feel is substantially different... apart from just a "click".
Is it like an ALPS, where click vs. noclick the tactile curve is "spiked" up when the click leaf catches on... or is it like a buckling spring, where the curve gradually increases, then "spikes" down as the spring buckles?

Also, first post.
Title: Re: Cherry MX Browns
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Sat, 06 February 2010, 04:26:49
ripster wrote on 6002 September 1993:

> The force curves look screwy to me
> - no way is the Blue and Brown as stiff as a Clear.

I readily believe the curve in that they need more force to bottom out
than the blacks.  Maybe the stiffness that we subjectively feel is more
about the energy needed to actuate than the force?  If you compare the
tactile bumps by comparing the areas under the curves instead of the
maximum force, the difference seems much more pronounced.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: Chao on Sat, 06 February 2010, 05:56:38
Quote from: ripster;156700
The force curves look screwy to me - no way is the Blue and Brown as stiff as a Clear.

I've thought long and hard about those curves and it makes sense to me in the end. The graph for the clears does go higher than the brown/blue, and on top of that the raised area on the curve is across a longer distance, which would translate into a prolonged period of resistance aka the stiffness you're referring to.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sat, 06 February 2010, 13:05:49
Anyone got cherry clears, what does a cherry clear stem feel like if you put a cherry brown spring into it?  Seems it might require low force to actuate but be more tactile? (more of a force bump)

Nevermind I found it.  :P
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=127687&postcount=60
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ikb on Sun, 07 February 2010, 07:16:51
Hi, I'm new in that forum, so...
I've wanted to register to this forum for long, and I did it now
because I'm not so happy with the space bar of my Cherry g80-
3000: it's too tough; and I've seen this can be changed, fixed.
But I don't know nothing about modding so if you could
introduce me to the subject :)
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: whininggit on Sun, 07 February 2010, 07:44:59
If you want to do a spring swap on the space bar, I would start by removing the Alt key caps either side of it. They should pop off quite easily - just make sure you apply equal pressure to both sides and pull straight up.

Once they're off, you can remove the space bar. The reason I recommended removing the Alt keys first is because the space bar has the main switch in the middle, and then two little supports joined by a metal bar. You need to pull the space bar off carefully and slowly, in order to avoid pulling off these supports. If they do come off, nothing is broken, but they're a pain in the arse to reassemble. Use small movements, gradually easily them off and they should stay attached.

Next, you need to open up the switch. I used two minature (i.e. those for repairing eye glasses) screwdrivers for this (one for unclipping and one to use as a wedge). Looking straight down at the switch from above, you should see that there are four little holes, one on each corner. These correspond to four little clips that hold the top piece unto the bottom.

What I did was use a very small screwdriver in the bottom left hole first to unclip it. The act of this should also unclip the top left clip, leaving the two left clips unclipped. Next, carefully wedge something thin underneath the left part, from the front, so it can't clip into place again and undo the top right clip and then the bottom right clip. The switch top should now just pop off.

Lift it off and put it somewhere safe. I swapped the stems and the springs so I can see which switch has the stiffer spring. The thing to take note of is that the Cherry logo on the black switch top should be at the 'top' along with the two little 'hooks' on the coloured slider (i.e. hooks + logo together).

I successfully opened 204 switches with this method and didn't break a single one. Maybe somebody else has a better method but this works for me, and once I got the knack of it I was fairly quick.

I would, however, recommend you start with the donor switch rather than your space bar. If you do break it, then at least you won't have killed your space bar.

Also make sure that your work area is clean, and that the keyboard is clean before you open the switches. Don't want hair and fluff getting inside.

Don't let my comments mislead you either. Cherry MX switches, although more resiliant to abuse than Alps, are still delicate things and going in poking around with a screwdriver is likely to break something. Somebody else may have some photos which illustrates how to do this better than my comments.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ikb on Sun, 07 February 2010, 12:45:10
Thank you for answering so quickly :)
About the removing; I've done it using two metal wires taken from
a binder-clip: turning in the extremities of the wire, plus giving it a
appropriated shape. With two of it I then had four little hooks...
Second, from what you said nothing is soldered... and I'll re-read
what you've said later when I'll have a clean table, and time, witch
i don't have at present.
Knowing it's possible I've found those illustrations, that might help
me when I"ll operate: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/keyswitch_cat.pdf,
plus http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm

So, i won't do anything now, but i keep you informed
(I also have a keyboard i believe with original alps:
so far it doesn't work, there is much to do on it, and it definitely is
for the future)
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: whininggit on Thu, 11 February 2010, 11:01:45
I managed to get a used MX3700 keypad which has Cherry MX blacks (as well as some lovely, albeit beige double-shot keys).

I swapped the black stems for the 3 remaining MX blues on Caps Lock, Num Lock and ¬`¦.

Black stem + blue spring = red? I imagine these would be pretty nice switches. Of course, you don't have the tactilty of the browns but they still feel nice. Blacks with black springs feel too stiff to comfortably type on for long periods.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: whininggit on Sun, 21 February 2010, 13:25:22
I decided to try an MX 'red' in the space bar. I'm still undecided whether I prefer to have a brown or a red in there, but I was wrong in thinking that my thumb wouldn't feel the tactility of the brown - it does, and now that I've got a linear switch in there, it does feel different.

Another thing I tried out - a bit of blu-tac to the underside of the space bar key. It makes it produce a more pleasant sound when bottoming out the space bar, although doesn't make any difference to the rattly sound, which I think are the stabilizers - some silicone grease might help here.
Title: Re: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: HaaTa on Sun, 21 February 2010, 20:13:49
I like the spacebar in my G80-3600 with MX Reds.
However, as an abomonation who likes MYs my opinion is probably moot.

My only redeeming quality would be that I rotate between four keyboards every day, only two of them being linear.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 22 February 2010, 15:39:19
Simplify: Sell me your MX red board and you have to rotate through only three boards daily.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: HaaTa on Mon, 22 February 2010, 16:50:17
Quote from: ricercar;160004
Simplify: Sell me your MX red board and you have to rotate through only three boards daily.


Lol.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 22 February 2010, 18:18:18
Quote from: HaaTa;160017
Lol.


So i got my G80-3000 LSCRC (finally).  I love it.  sorta like a filco but the sound is much dampened.  The cherry green switch definatly uses a higher force spring, but it clicks just like the blue.  Actually it is great as a spacebar key, I wouldn't change it - it definately clacks loudly.

I have since switched the g80-3000lscrc switches onto my compaq mx11800 to save a few inches on the side in exchange for a non-standard layout, and so i can use the g80-3000lscrc at work with cherry brown switches.  Loving it - cherry blues feel great, again if noise is no object, it's the way to go.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 22 February 2010, 20:18:30
It was a little slow going for a while, but I'm digging it now i got it swapped.  Took like an hour or more, tedious stuff.  When i get some free time I'll ripometer the cherry green (if nobody has done it yet) and try to understand what spring is under it, and if the blue stems are shaped similarly.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 22 February 2010, 20:41:48
Quote from: ripster;160034
Haha!  A Compaq MX11800 with Cherry Blues.  Nice work!


The odd thing is, they really should have been made with blues in the first place. Perfect for noisy server rooms. You probably wouldn't even hear the click tbh, but the extra tactile feel would be useful.
Title: Re: Cherry MX Browns
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Mon, 22 February 2010, 23:31:41
Good thing Compaq didn't think that far...  Otherwise there would be
zero brown cherry boards on the german ebay.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 23 February 2010, 10:27:23
No, that's a cyclops. This is a syops:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Sisyphus_by_von_Stuck.jpg)
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:11:27
Quote from: ripster;160100
What's a sysops?  Sounds like a sexually transmitted disease.


Well, most of them are irritating :censored:s

(Having been one myself.)
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:16:33
BOFH.  I know.  I am one.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 24 February 2010, 16:24:47
Cherry green switch on the spacebar is 13 nickels, or 65 grams to actuate consistently.  This is using the mx11800 spacebar with stabilizer in place. It's clicky too.

Visually the cherry green spring looks just like the cherry black spring.  It takes 11 turns if you count the top and bottom bunch of turns as one turn each.  I have no cherry black to compare, but that's what it looks like.  I need a fricken macro lens. :P
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: mrbill on Wed, 24 February 2010, 20:25:24
My Filco w/Cherry Blues arrived tonight.  I'd been using my Scorpius M10 for the past couple of days so I could have a point of reference for comparison.  Well, there is no comparison.  The Filco feels more solid, is heavier, definitely better made, and even has a better sound - more of a THONKaTHONKa when keys bottom out (like an AT101W but deeper) instead of a SNAPSNAPSNAP from the M10.  I got the ESC keycap swapped for the red one, but will definitely be ordering a key puller soon.

I've got a couple of those cheap MX8100s on the way from eBay so I can hopefully get a board with MX Browns, as I've not used them before and wanted to test-drive for a while before ordering another Filco next payday.  

Had to work late tonight (in the datacenter), and went to sit down at the KVM.  Wouldn't you know, the board sitting on the desk was a Compaq MX11800!  So, I got some quality MX Brown time in this evening, and am already plotting to take one of my Cherry membrane boards in and swap it for the MX11800, as nobody cares what keyboard is there as long as it works.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 24 February 2010, 23:25:35
You fiend. I was going to get that 'board next time I came in.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: SLM on Thu, 25 February 2010, 21:24:46
Quote from: mrbill;160573
...got some quality MX Brown time in this evening, and am already plotting to take one of my Cherry membrane boards in and swap it for the MX11800, as nobody cares what keyboard is there as long as it works.


LOL!  That's kinda how I got my Model M.  It had been at work for years, unused under a counter.  One day I just packed it up and told them "I'm taking this home".  Ok, no problem!
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 26 February 2010, 19:05:14
My first day at the first job out of college my boss encouraged me to scrounge for the abandoned equipment in unused cubicles. It's been my habit ever since. I don't take everything home, but if it's with me on my last day, when I clean out my office ....
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 March 2010, 11:26:50
Ok heres an update on the cherry green situation.
Using ripometer and using compaq mx11800 keycaps -
Cherry blue = 55-60 grams
Cherry green (spacebar) = 65-70 grams
Cherry blue stem with cherry black spring = 75-80 grams!
Cherry green stem is the exact same shape as the cherry blue stem as far as I can see.  They are the same except for color.

The cherry green spring is the same length as the cherry black spring.  But they aren't exactly the same, I think the cherry black spring has more resistance.  I don't think I'm going to change my desko to cherry blues with black springs, as 75-80 grams per actuation is going to be too painful :(
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 March 2010, 13:45:11
Sorry I had to un-ignore you to read what is going on webby.  

that's odd.  10 nickles does not actuate my pink filco 104 key, nor does it my g80-3000.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 March 2010, 14:09:29
Rip - does it actuate with 50 grams on your side?

When I plop a stack of 11 nickels on it will acutate.  If I put them on really slowly it does not flip the switch.  The 12th one always does.  This is why I say 55-60grams

Sorry had to edit this post for clarity, I put my money on 55-60 grams.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 March 2010, 14:24:25
Back on the ignore list.  Yes, I'm an ignorant *******.  (edit) you piece of **** bastard.

Oh and for what it's worth I meant "I put my money on 55-60 grams" because I had made an edit to my post, I thought it might be 50-55 grams, but now I feel it might been 55-60 grams.  And yes if my center of gravity of stack of nickels is not pushing straight down onto the axis of the key switch it won't be accurate.  But webwit is still a piece of ****.

Quote from: webwit;165921
Yes, because my ISO calibrated 0.05g accurate weighting method is obviously inferior to yours. Either that, or you're some kind of ignorant *******.

P.S. the diameter of your nickels suck.. I'm sure you will figure it out.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: kishy on Sun, 21 March 2010, 15:20:10
(http://crashlanden.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/rat-hunter-gi-joe.jpg)

Just because it seems appopriate here.

Not sure who's who, so it'd be best not to ask or I'll develop a bias.
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 21 March 2010, 17:33:11
If Blue Cherries are 60g, I will eat my Model F...
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: sixty on Sun, 21 March 2010, 18:04:12
webwit, does your g80-5000 have the super strong springs in the windows keys? or do you have the model with normal springs in there?

If you have the super strong MX blacks, please measure those. Always wanted to know!
Title: Cherry MX Browns - Pretty nice in the G80-3000
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 March 2010, 19:37:24
Tried this method with the F key on the pink 104 key blue cherry.  10 nickels + tap dosen't actuate it, 11 nickels + a reasonably strong tap does it.

Is this accurate?  it may not be the real force to actuate the key.  But it should be reproducible for those of us who have 11 nickels to test it.

Quote from: ripster;165919
What I usually do is find the point where it always actuates.  Back off one nickel.  Tap my keyboard tray once with one finger.   If it plops I use that number.  If not, I use the higher number.  I just do it once on the F key usually because I'm lazy.  So yeah, my Blue Cherries do that.  Buckling Springs are the real problem - sometimes they REFUSE to buckle the little bastards.

This stuff is never going to be as precise as using a real finger accelerating downward but most people can't feel within 5gms consistently either.