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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 07:32:58

Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 07:32:58
Has anyone found out a way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?   I know they are designed to not be bottomed out, but when I get really rolling, I find it hard not to, and I naturally just bottom out certain keystrokes, like when I use enter, or when I am Alt-Tabbing between windows.  I am sure it is because I am so used to rubber domes, but regardless, it would be nice to not have such a jarring bottom out on such a nice switch.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:01:19
Damn, you must be typing pretty hard.  The only way I can think of dampening them, off the top of my head, is to dismantle the switch and add a rubber washer around the base of the spring.  You would lose some switch travel (and a lot of time) by doing this, though.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:05:07
Quote from: itlnstln;156413
Damn, you must be typing pretty hard.  


I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:07:37
Quote from: mp29k;156415
I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.

Oh, I agree. I still bottom out mine on occassion, especially when typing fast. I was referring more to the "jarring" part than anything.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:10:15
Quote from: itlnstln;156417
Oh, I agree. I still bottom out mine on occassion, especially when typing fast. I was referring more to the "jarring" part than anything.


Maybe "jarring" was a little strong, but can you agree that the switch would benefit from a softer landing?

I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?  

Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:32:54
You can punch holes in some thin foam or rubber sheet, cut them out and put them inside the keycaps. A common office hole puncher works for that. I found the shorter travel more irritating than the hard landing though when I experimented with black Cherries a while ago.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 05 February 2010, 08:33:54
Quote from: mp29k;156419
I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?
 
That's how it was done on my Tandberg board with MLs.
Quote from: mp29k;156419
Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?

According to the datasheet, the mounting height of MX switches up to the stem is 11.6 mm. Subtract about 4 mm of travel.

Otherwise I'd say you eventually get used to it to some degree.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: alpslover on Fri, 05 February 2010, 10:15:13
Quote from: mp29k;156419
Maybe "jarring" was a little strong, but can you agree that the switch would benefit from a softer landing?


no.  i personally like the hard landing.


Quote
I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?


yes, but you need to get the thickness just right - not thick enough, and it won't do anything to soften the landing.  too thick, and you eat into the key travel.  i've seen versions of dell at101's that had thin foam strips underneath certain keys to soften the landing.


Quote
Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?


that depends on the keycaps.  on my filco tenkeyless, there looks to be about a 2.5mm gap (just eyeing it).
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: devilcm3 on Fri, 05 February 2010, 10:24:16
maybe use a paper...cut some square holes with the exact size of the cherry switches and then just place it on the bottom...
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: nanu on Fri, 05 February 2010, 10:34:03
I tend to bottom out even half a year later, which makes me think maybe Cherry MX browns aren't for me but I doubt I could get a quieter mechanical keyboard (silence being my preference).

I used 2mm foam sheet from the craft store.  These donuts slip onto each keycap.  It noticeably shortens the throw so you will likely bottom out always, by doing this mod.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3230&d=1247947829)

I do wonder about a softer and/or thinner dampening material...
Title: Re: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Fri, 05 February 2010, 12:13:00
mp29k wrote on 6001 September 1993:

> Has anyone found out a way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry
> switches? I know they are designed to not be bottomed out, but when I
> get really rolling, I find it hard not to,

Sounds like you want to try clear Cherry switches.  When typing on my
G80-3000LQCDE-2, I really like the fact that they are impossible to
bottom out.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 12:18:55
Quote from: bsvP585hUO2Y6;156483
mp29k wrote on 6001 September 1993:

Wow, I didn't think it was that long ago; it seemed like it was just a few hours ago when mp29k asked that question.
 
 
1993 must have been a leap year.  It looks like they had to extend it almost 16.5 years to make up for some major space/time continuum infraction.
 
 
Coincidently, if you add 16.34 years to 9/1/1993, it comes out roughly to today's date.  It looks like you forgot to carry the "1."
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:42:32
I've always wondered what was behind the whole "1993" thing. Guess I'm not the only one stuck in the nineties with technology...
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 February 2010, 13:45:17
You're right.  Everytime bsv quotes it's from some unspecified September date in 1993.  Craziness.
Title: Re: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Fri, 05 February 2010, 16:17:25
It's not just some Septemper, it's the neverending one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_september).
Each time someone doesn't know about it, I feel a little bit older...
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: kppanic on Fri, 05 February 2010, 16:33:28
Quote from: mp29k;156415
I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.


Second that.

I type faster and more accurately when I bottom out...
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 16:50:26
Quote from: ripster;156466
Lots of options.  I've seen:

- Rubber O rings on the stem
- Japanese dude that put clay or some plastic goop into the key and then baked it
- Sorbathane (where did I put that sheet?)
- Felt would be good

I just stick the keyboard on a mousepad.  That makes a difference.


Rip,
how would adding rubber o rings to the stem help?  Wouldn't that just prevent the keycap from going on all the way?  I would prefer an elegant solution like this, but I don't think this would do anything.

The impression I have when the key bottoms out is that it is internally in the switch that is causing the bottom out.  Therefore, I figure the only way to properly dampen would be to fill the space between the keycap and the plate with some sort of absorbent material, like closed cell foam.  If the estimate posted by someone up thread is right @ ~2.5mm between the cap and the plate, 3.5-4mm foam would probably be perfect.  

Does anyone else have an impression, or actual working knowledge of that is actually bottoming out when the key meets the end of it's travel?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Fri, 05 February 2010, 16:52:18
Quote from: nanu;156464
I tend to bottom out even half a year later, which makes me think maybe Cherry MX browns aren't for me but I doubt I could get a quieter mechanical keyboard (silence being my preference).

I used 2mm foam sheet from the craft store.  These donuts slip onto each keycap.  It noticeably shortens the throw so you will likely bottom out always, by doing this mod.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3230&d=1247947829)


I do wonder about a softer and/or thinner dampening material...

Can you share more detail about how this works?  Does the foam sit around the whole switch assembly, or just around the plus (+) shaped stem under where the cap attaches?  Does this prevent the key from going on all the way.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 05 February 2010, 18:11:15
PCB dampens cherry switch bottoming out noise better than metal plate.  But of course this was not the question that was asked.  I'm interested in this thread too, wonder what the answer is to this...  Putting a mousepad under the keyboard actually does make the noise of the keyboard less (I'm testing on this on a ricecar G86).
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: kriminal on Thu, 11 February 2010, 06:37:43
weird i bottom out every time i press a key on my cherry brown board. but then again im not a good typist anyway. interesting O ring tech.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 11 February 2010, 08:06:47
Quote from: kriminal;157750
weird i bottom out every time i press a key on my cherry brown board. but then again im not a good typist anyway. interesting O ring tech.

Bottoming out is a personal preference thing, not the hallmark of a good typist.  Some people don't like to bottom out for trauma reasons while for others, it's a speed thing.  I don't bottom out much anymore just on accident.  I don't try not to, though.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Thu, 11 February 2010, 08:15:14
After seeing this mod, I want to buy a bunch of o-rings, and some double-shots and make the ultimate (for me) Filco with brown cherries.

I think I want to use a slimmer o-ring though, so I don't reduce the travel too much... I wouldn't actually mind reducing the travel a little bit, but would still want a little space between the actuation point and the o-ring bottoming.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: nanu on Thu, 11 February 2010, 10:22:32
Yes, the issue with making the cushioning thinner is that there's less of a dampening effect when bottoming.  And making it thicker makes bottoming reached earlier. And having it too thick will close the actuation window.

Rubber is dense already so having it be thinner would make it cushion less, so that's why felt or foam is suggested since it compresses more. It's hard to find thin foam however, because it wouldn't hold up to wear. I just tried felt on the cursor keys and I'm liking it over foam.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ocdonkb on Thu, 11 February 2010, 13:21:18
Quote from: ripster;156665
More details on the O-Ring method. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5450&do=comments)

Thanks Ripsters. This picture below, is exactly what I want done in my Filco. Although not sure where you'd get such things, I suppose I'll visit some plumbing supply stores this weekend?

(http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/files/attach/images/32780/052/608/o-ring.jpg)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: kishy on Thu, 11 February 2010, 13:31:32
Actually, those look similar to the rubber rings one with stretched piercings uses to retain their jewelry (and they're available in a wide variety of sizes).

Not a look I like or have, btw, just saying you could probably obtain such rings at a body art store or w/e they're called.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 11 February 2010, 14:47:34
Quote from: ripster;157837

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7822&stc=1&d=1265918804)



Christ, I remember those things. I can't remember which ones I had, but they were definitely animal-coded ones alright.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Thu, 11 February 2010, 15:01:15
3/16" size on ebay... 200 of them should do a tenkeyless and 104 board!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200414313961&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXS%3F&GUID=682d523411f0a0bae2d1bbe1ffe84cfb&itemid=200414313961&ff4=263602_263622#ht_500wt_956
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Thu, 11 February 2010, 15:11:06
Quote from: ripster;157839
Bingo.

These should be just about perfect.  100 3/16" for $3.50 for heavy (http://www.jesorthodental.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=02&Category_Code=Elastomerics&Product_Count=2)
Show Image
(http://www.jesorthodental.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/non-latex-3-16-3.jpg)


I just saved some High Schooler from getting beat up.


Do you think Heavy are the best?   What weight were the ones you used?  I am trying to take up as little of the key distance as possible without feeling that hard plasticky clack at the bottom.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: mp29k on Thu, 11 February 2010, 15:59:10
Quote from: ripster;157857
I dunno what is best.   Nobody can even agree what switch is best or whether Cherry Browns are noisy or quiet.  The RAMS are considered Heavy.  Here's the whole product catalog (http://www.ormco.com/index/cms-filesystem-action?file=Ormco-PDF/elasticspowerproducts-ormcocatalog.pdf) for the analytical types.  Look at the "zoo packs".

They're cheap.  Order Light/Medium/Heavy and report back.

Next time my kid goes to the orthodontist I'm stealing a few rabbit packs when the dentist turns his back.


Now I just need to find dark gray (or black I guess) double shots!
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: nanu on Thu, 11 February 2010, 19:19:22
Quote from: ripster;157857
They're cheap.

Ordered some 3.5oz and 4.5oz -force 3/16" latex bands
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 12 February 2010, 00:23:38
Ya'll rock.  My wife may be wondering why orthodontic rubber bands show up in the house soon.  Love it guys.

Anyone got some before and after audio clips?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 February 2010, 09:34:38
Does it reduce the key travel much?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 February 2010, 12:26:15
I go twice a year.  31 years old and still no cavities.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: JBert on Fri, 12 February 2010, 15:33:46
Quote from: ripster;157837
Hahahaha!  This works.  Had the idea long ago but I've never gotten around to trying it since I just use a Topre if I want quiet.

Pluses:

- Cheap.  After you've paid the $5k that is.  I'd just steal them from your local orthodontist.  They often keep some outside the office.  
- Soft rubber so they give a nice Topre soft landing and keep things quiet
- Right diameter - you really want thin ones

Downside:

- A little oversize (at least these Ram ones) so I had to put it on with the keyboard upside down.  Look for the Rabbit or Impalla for a smaller diameter.
- You may get arrested for stealing from orthodontists or beating up High Schoolers.  That's what you get for believing what you read on the internet.
The "orthodontist method" sounded so good I immediately tried it out on my model F AT (still had some bags of 9.5mm or 3/8" rings). These are exactly the width of the barrel, hence when you put them in a cap they'll rest on the barrel when you turn your keyboard proper side up.

Sadly, it ought not to be: some keys stop activating. I think this is related to the fact that I swapped keycaps to make a colemak keyboard. Still, it might happen with keycaps in their qwerty positions. In the end, I only modded the modifier keys as those are the most likely to get mashed hard (take Escape or backspace for example).
On the other hand, it might do wonders for a model M. Then again, who bottoms out on such a "stiff" keyboard?

These larger rings seem to work for Cherries, only they're harder to keep in place.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 13 February 2010, 03:36:19
Noise modding a Model F is like putting one of those electronic speed limiters on a racing car - it misses the point in the most excruciating way possible.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: JBert on Sat, 13 February 2010, 16:15:51
Ehr, I'm not talking about noise here, rather it was about the altering the hard landing on the F. The sound is fine as it is.

The orthodontist method seems to work nicely on all my "grey keys" - at least these keep activating when there is a rubber band on top of the barrel.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 13 February 2010, 17:52:00
I always put some gripper mat under my keyboards now. Makes any keyboard sound better IMO. Yes, even the Topres.

Messy example below, but you can cut it to match the size of the keyboard, or even attach it (semi) permanently if you like.

It may not soften keypresses to any significant degree, but you will probably perceive it as being softer. And of course it does a fine job of keeping the keyboard in place! :smile: And it's a lot easier than modding every key.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7492&d=1264169691)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 13 February 2010, 17:54:01
Quote from: JBert;158168
Ehr, I'm not talking about noise here, rather it was about the altering the hard landing on the F. The sound is fine as it is.

The orthodontist method seems to work nicely on all my "grey keys" - at least these keep activating when there is a rubber band on top of the barrel.


Oh right.

Oh, and what's the deal with your spacebar mod? Did it work? What is required?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 13 February 2010, 18:36:14
I'll check my parents' house tonight or tomorrow for some orthodontic rubber bands.  I have a Model M and an MX11800 that I'll test if I find some.  I had buffalo, ram, and impala bands at different stages of my 5 year orthodontic adventure!  They had bright neon colored ones that all the girls (and some of the guys) were really crazy over when I had my braces.  I always opted for the clear or gray bands.  Even then I was boring :|
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 13 February 2010, 20:12:23
Brace yourself. My teeth have always been perfect.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: JBert on Sun, 14 February 2010, 12:36:33
Quote from: ch_123;158180
Oh right.

Oh, and what's the deal with your spacebar mod? Did it work? What is required?
Not much is required, you only have to take apart your keyboard.

I've posted the whole thing as Model F Improvement: Space bar mod (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8865&redirect=no)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ocdonkb on Thu, 18 February 2010, 17:04:19
I was just at a local hardware store, and picked up some rubber o-ring's, similar in size to these on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200380989077&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)

It definitely helps reducing the annoying "spring pinging" of my Filco Brown. There's also these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200380989533&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT) that's a bit thicker that I imagine will provide even more cushion on the down stroke.

Yes, it does reduce key-travel(obviously), but I think this is actually a good thing on the Filco.

The other thing it does is it makes the keys feel more "substantial". So overall, I'd say this is a Good Mod.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Frawg on Thu, 18 February 2010, 19:45:02
ocdonkb, besides shortening the travel, how does it feel bottoming out? I ordered some 3/16 medium bands, but looks like Rip didn't have good results. May spring for the O-rings if they're nice.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ocdonkb on Thu, 18 February 2010, 19:54:17
Quote from: Frawg;159282
ocdonkb, besides shortening the travel, how does it feel bottoming out? I ordered some 3/16 medium bands, but looks like Rip didn't have good results. May spring for the O-rings if they're nice.


The sound of bottoming out is different, not sure who said this first(perhaps ripster) but it's definitely more thocky, than clicky now.

I'd say w/o the o-ring, the Filco bottoming out is harsh and final. With the o-ring, it's a tiny bit more refined. I think this would work better if the rubber were a bit softer, with a little bit more give. The medium bands you ordered might actually be better.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elservo on Thu, 18 February 2010, 20:01:51
Quote from: ripster;157962
 I'm in the middle of creating a Disco LED Trackball


You can't dream this dude up.  Love this guy.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: ocdonkb on Sat, 20 February 2010, 13:16:24
Alright another update, as I've now clearly become obsessed with this...

received my 3/16" medium Orthodontic elastics. These do nothing. They're too thin/soft to really make any difference.

I think the o-ring's are a better choice for this application.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: JBert on Sat, 20 February 2010, 14:19:18
Well, I only use them to occasionally break the landing, not to make it feel comfortable to bottom out all the time. I do try to avoid bottoming out, but that is not so simple on a model F.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Wed, 05 January 2011, 20:37:05
Sorry everyone for reviving an old thread, but it's probably better than creating a new one.

A couple of days ago, I started working on a way to paper-dampen the switches in the Cherry G80-3000 (Blues). I started out in Photoshop with a couple of boxes, printing them and cutting them out with an exacto-knife. The problem is that the boxes need to be aligned very precisely, otherwise they won't fit over the switches. I made multiple printouts, some fit perfectly, some were displaced by like a tenth of a millimeter per switch, resulting in the boxes to the far right of the keyboard not being placed properly. This could be attributed to my measuring, the printer not being 100% accurate, Photoshop scaling algorithms etc etc. Because of this, I hacked together a simple Java-application to draw boxes to an image with a resolution of 40 pixels per millimeter, with compensation for image -> printout eskew. It's still not perfect, but it's probably as good as I can get it (the code is pretty terrible though). Some manual adjustment is sometimes still necessary, but I blame the printer for this since it's pretty much randomly occurring.

The paper I'm using is like 0.7 mm thick (240g), so it shortens the travel somewhat, but actually leaves the rest of the switch characteristic fairly untouched. I actually prefer it to O-rings, since it reduces noise as well as 'gently' removing the clack of bottoming out. I'm also certain it makes me type lighter.

Also, paper is probably not the best material to use for this. I think a thin rubber mat (like the one in the M2) would be perfect. I just don't feel like slicing one up to try it out.

Anyway, enough blatant blar.

Sound sample!

 (first 12 presses are undampened, follow by 12 dampened as well as dampened typing)

Pics!





I kinda like the faux Rosewill effect as well. :)

If anyone's interested in trying this out, I could clean up the code and add support for a configuration file (so you don't have to install the JDK and recompile to change measurements).
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elef on Thu, 06 January 2011, 04:04:42
That's neat.
I've been experimenting with some rubber inserts in the keycaps made from some ~1mm rubber sheet I have easy access to. The results were somewhat promising (softer, quieter landing, not much travel lost), but not even enough across keys. The sheet needs to be half a mm thicker to work right in the keycaps, but even then, it's a pretty messy solution.
Your solution will surely produce better, more uniform results, with the added benefit of acting as a muffler inside the keyboard, reducing all sounds much like the pads underneath the keyboards some people use here.

I have a Filco now, and may buy an ISO G80-3000 soon, which would have the exact same layout as yours there. If I do, I will definitely pester you for a ready-for-printing image file. Maybe I'll use the 1mm rubber sheet for ultimate damping, or something a bit thinner so that I lose less of the travel.
By the way, how much biggger are the keycaps than the base of the switch? If they are, say, 3mm larger across, then there is a 1.5mm spacing on either side, which means you can afford to just make oversized cutouts for each switch (say, 0.5mm or 1mm larger than the base in all 4 directions) and still be sure all of the keycap will land on the mat. That buys you some room for error with the placement of the holes.

I'm not a fan of the rattling of the Filco, so the thicker caps on the Cherry, pcb mounting instead of plate mounting, plus a sheet inside the board and a mat underneat should work really nicely to muffle the clack-clack. I have browns in my Filco now and want blues, so these mods should at least make sure the new keyboard is not that much louder than the old one. Or so I keep telling myself.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Thu, 06 January 2011, 05:38:57
Quote from: elef;273951
That's neat.
I've been experimenting with some rubber inserts in the keycaps made from some ~1mm rubber sheet I have easy access to. The results were somewhat promising (softer, quieter landing, not much travel lost), but not even enough across keys. The sheet needs to be half a mm thicker to work right in the keycaps, but even then, it's a pretty messy solution.
Your solution will surely produce better, more uniform results, with the added benefit of acting as a muffler inside the keyboard, reducing all sounds much like the pads underneath the keyboards some people use here.

I have a Filco now, and may buy an ISO G80-3000 soon, which would have the exact same layout as yours there. If I do, I will definitely pester you for a ready-for-printing image file. Maybe I'll use the 1mm rubber sheet for ultimate damping, or something a bit thinner so that I lose less of the travel.
By the way, how much biggger are the keycaps than the base of the switch? If they are, say, 3mm larger across, then there is a 1.5mm spacing on either side, which means you can afford to just make oversized cutouts for each switch (say, 0.5mm or 1mm larger than the base in all 4 directions) and still be sure all of the keycap will land on the mat. That buys you some room for error with the placement of the holes.

I'm not a fan of the rattling of the Filco, so the thicker caps on the Cherry, pcb mounting instead of plate mounting, plus a sheet inside the board and a mat underneat should work really nicely to muffle the clack-clack. I have browns in my Filco now and want blues, so these mods should at least make sure the new keyboard is not that much louder than the old one. Or so I keep telling myself.


I'm quite certain the mat will remove almost all of the clack. It's basically gone from mine which is nice, since you can now hear the actual click of the switch. Before, the clack would pretty much drain it. It's very uniform around the letter keys, keys alongside the edge (12345 tab caps lock etc) are not perfect since the paper moves around a bit inside the board. I haven't quite figured out a way to deal with that, but I think a rubber mat would make it much less noticeable than the (fairly) stiff paper I'm using now. It probably needs to be fixed to the board in some way. The G80 shell has separators between key sections, if the key cutouts are placed with some give between sections, that would allow the mat to flex, and could be used to clamp it down. The rubber mat would most likely be awesome for this. Where do I buy one that thin??


Terribly overexposed to show the separators better.

I also don't think the reduced travel will be especially noticeable, the paper I'm using now feels like the only thing it does is make it more comfortable to bottom out and removes noise and clack.

The more accurately the cutouts are placed, the better it will be. A standard keycap is ~17mm in length, but the actual 'surface area' in which they make contact with the switch is a bit shorter. The mat will have to 'rest' on the switch somewhat... It's a bit difficult to explain, but the pic below shows about where the mat needs to be.



You can have the printout I used for this board, but before I post it I want to make sure it fits perfectly (I'm properly anal about this stuff). Also, I've only done the alphanumeric section right now, but it would be very easy to add the rest.

I also think I'll go ahead and clean up the code and add the configuration stuff. Not only because I'm probably gonna look at it in a week, and wonder just what the hell it does, but you could use it to try stuff out on your Filco, if you like. And, it's a lot of fun. :)


urk
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Thu, 06 January 2011, 05:47:35
This paper method looks very interesting! Reminds me of the rubber flooring on my Logitech Illuminated. I work in an office with 4 others, so softening bottoming out would be very very good.

I wonder what is easier in the end, modding the keycaps or using a sheet.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Thu, 06 January 2011, 08:02:00
Quote from: symphonic1985;273959
This paper method looks very interesting! Reminds me of the rubber flooring on my Logitech Illuminated. I work in an office with 4 others, so softening bottoming out would be very very good.

I wonder what is easier in the end, modding the keycaps or using a sheet.


It's probably easier to get a uniform feel if using a sheet, if you're not using o-rings or dental bands. I'm working on the application used to create cutouts -- expect updates within a few days. :)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 06 January 2011, 12:50:17
Interesting. I have been thinking about dampening in a similar way, but using "craft foam" that is slightly thicker and with slightly larger holes so that it rests on the metal plate in-between the switches and not on the switches themselves. However, all my full-size Cherry keyboards have PCB-mounted switches.

The purpose of using foam is that it also could muffle other sound from within the switch.
I use 3/15" dental bands on my Cherry Blue keyboard, and I think that works pretty well to eliminate clack, but the dental bands does nothing to dampen the loud click noise.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: 8_INCH_FLOPPY on Fri, 07 January 2011, 01:31:23
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;156424
You can punch holes in some thin foam or rubber sheet, cut them out and put them inside the keycaps. A common office hole puncher works for that. I found the shorter travel more irritating than the hard landing though when I experimented with black Cherries a while ago.


You think Black Cherries have short travel?  Really?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elef on Fri, 07 January 2011, 03:41:17
Quote from: intealls;273957
The rubber mat would most likely be awesome for this. Where do I buy one that thin??



I have no idea. I'm sure you can buy something like this in home depot or some arts and crafts store, but the stuff I have is nicked from some very specialized equipment you'll never hace access to... so yeah, I don't know.
You could possibly use the thin foam-like stuff they put in new laptops to protect the screen. That's thinner than 1mm so it would reduce the travel less, but it would also dampen the noise a lot less, I imagine.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Sat, 08 January 2011, 01:36:27
Well, I finished the app sorta. It pretty much does what I want it to, and I managed to create a cutout for my G80-3000 from scratch with it. If anyone wants to try it out, download the app.zip, extract it somewhere and run 'java -jar i.jar g80-3000.cfg g80-3000.png' to generate the cutout from that configuration file. Included is a calibration config, to generate a calibration sheet. It's not very friendly, but it beats doing it in Photoshop. The easiest way to get measurements is to take apart the keyboard and measure on the backside of the PCB. The source is available in src.zip, it could use some tidying up (as always). A low resolution output file is attached, with visible rounding errors. When using a higher resolution these will be a lot less apparent.

edit: if anyone's interested and find the app confusing, let me know and I'll write up a quick tutorial
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Sun, 09 January 2011, 17:36:27
Thanks for posting your app intealls.  I'll print out some templates soon and try it on my g80. For now I only have access to manilla folder type cardboard but if that works well then I'll move on to something better. What kind of material are you going to try next?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Sun, 09 January 2011, 18:23:25
Quote from: symphonic1985;275857
Thanks for posting your app intealls.  I'll print out some templates soon and try it on my g80. For now I only have access to manilla folder type cardboard but if that works well then I'll move on to something better. What kind of material are you going to try next?

I've been trying lots of stuff the last few days, foam rubber, ordinary printer paper (multiple layers of it), stiffer paper, thin foam etc. My index finger is seriously worn from all the cutting. :)

I found the foam rubber I used to be too thick (sheet was about 2mm) -- the effect is probably similar to the sorbathane ripster used. It also shortened the travel a bit too much for my liking.

Right now I actually prefer two layers of ordinary printer paper. Since the paper is very light, it doesn't matter if it hovers 1-1.5 mm above the switch when being pressed down, I can't feel a difference if it's flat against the switch or not. Of course, printer paper is not very durable. :/ I'll have to use it for a while to see how it holds up.

Next I think I'll try to get ahold of some rubber sheets, between 1-1.5mm, and some kind of soft cardboard (between 120-180g? I found 240 to be a bit too stiff). This whole thing is seriously addictive. :)

Post your results and tell me if you need help with the app! Also make sure to calibrate the printout, and measure the final print that you're about to cut against a known value. Cutting all the squares just to find that it doesn't fit on the keyboard is, well, disheartening to say the least. :) Also make sure to recalibrate when using a new kind of paper, my printer skewed differently depending on what paper was used.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Nadger on Sun, 09 January 2011, 18:39:21
Interesting, thank you for making the program and sharing it with us.  I believe cerial box cardboard would be a good thickness.

I've always wanted to try contact paper and cork paper: http://dcbcrafts.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6002&zenid=bb79d3a12b0a41d1e2f2dea60c6d79ae.

Cork i think would give the best results but sanded poster board may work well too.  I say sanded because it would give it a rougher texture which should absorb sound better then something smooth that soundwaves bounce off of easily.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Sun, 09 January 2011, 19:04:07
Quote from: Nadger;275872
Interesting, thank you for making the program and sharing it with us.  I believe cerial box cardboard would be a good thickness.

I've always wanted to try contact paper and cork paper: http://dcbcrafts.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6002&zenid=bb79d3a12b0a41d1e2f2dea60c6d79ae.

Cork i think would give the best results but sanded poster board may work well too.  I say sanded because it would give it a rougher texture which should absorb sound better then something smooth that soundwaves bounce off of easily.

I've actually been using cardboard boxes to throw away old cutouts etc, and it never crossed my mind that they could be used for actual cutouts. I just tried it on one switch, and it works great! I'm definitely going to do an entire cutout from it tomorrow (it's 2am here). Another plus is that it is much more sturdy than printer paper. Thanks for the tip! :)

Also, I think I'm going to do the entire G80 board, as well as devise a way to fasten the cutouts by folding them so that they push down on the switches (U-shape, kind of). If you guys want, I'll write proper documentation and perhaps a tutorial on how to calibrate etc, the app is kind of spartan at the moment. :)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Nadger on Sun, 09 January 2011, 19:48:34
I thought you already tried normal cardboard boxes but you found them to be too stiff.  I suggested cereal box cardboard because its super thin.  I too might try sanding the paper (not printed) side of the cereal box to give it a little extra cushion.

Also I wonder if using wax paper or wax paper + smearing a thin layer of caulking over it would work well.

Lastly i was thinking about fabric.  Like maybe fleece or flannel or microfiber.

Edit:
Anyway i look forward to your results.  I have not tried running your program yet, so i cant comment on its user friendliness to know if it needs a tutorial.

My mechanical wont be here for another 2 weeks or so.  If i find it too loud ill try your mods out.  Though the board I ordered uses very thick POM keycaps which from fssbzz's description, sounds like the thicker/higher quality plastic quiets it down a lot compared to his other boards.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 10 January 2011, 05:18:34
Another idea that might not work as well but would be easy to implement:

The vertical space between keyboard rows is the same right? Couldn't you use lines of foam/cardboard horizontally like this-

------------------

------------------

------------------

It could rest against the PCB. I'm not sure how easy it would be to make it homogeneous. The keycaps wouldn't come in contact with it on every side but enough to stop bottoming out. You could also then use a weaker kind of foam and get a very soft landing. And by filling the inter key spacing you'd achieve additional muffling.  I guess you could also fill this space with the paper cutout method by stuffing tissues or something below it.

In the end I think I'd be most comfortable with rubber, since the idea of generating lots of particulates from paper/fabric that could make their way into the switches is a little bit unsettling.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elef on Mon, 10 January 2011, 05:34:18
Thanks for posting the png, intealls.
I just pulled the trigger on a G80-3000, so if I find it to be too loud, I may well get cuttin'... however, opening the case voids the warranty, right?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Mon, 10 January 2011, 10:57:30
Quote from: Nadger;275886
I thought you already tried normal cardboard boxes but you found them to be too stiff.  I suggested cereal box cardboard because its super thin.


The cereal box paper is thinner than the stiff paper (240g, cardboard?) I used previously. I don't think the cereal box paper will cusion the bottom out action as much, but I'm going to try it anyway. :) It will most certainly remove all of the clack as well as muffle noise.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Mon, 10 January 2011, 11:16:45
Quote from: elef;276031
Thanks for posting the png, intealls.
I just pulled the trigger on a G80-3000, so if I find it to be too loud, I may well get cuttin'... however, opening the case voids the warranty, right?


I think so, but you can experiment with materials by just removing the keycaps. If you like it and wish to make a bigger cutout that's clamped down, you're going to have to open it up. :/
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: Nadger on Mon, 10 January 2011, 11:22:38
yeah i wouldnt imagine it to soften it much, but i would expect it to reduce noise.  as to dampen the landing so its softer, as well as reduce noise, id use a shamwow instead ;x

But that might be a ***** to cut since its kinda stretchy
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Mon, 10 January 2011, 11:38:16
Quote from: symphonic1985;276026
Another idea that might not work as well but would be easy to implement:

The vertical space between keyboard rows is the same right? Couldn't you use lines of foam/cardboard horizontally like this-

------------------

------------------

------------------

It could rest against the PCB. I'm not sure how easy it would be to make it homogeneous. The keycaps wouldn't come in contact with it on every side but enough to stop bottoming out. You could also then use a weaker kind of foam and get a very soft landing. And by filling the inter key spacing you'd achieve additional muffling.  I guess you could also fill this space with the paper cutout method by stuffing tissues or something below it.

In the end I think I'd be most comfortable with rubber, since the idea of generating lots of particulates from paper/fabric that could make their way into the switches is a little bit unsettling.


Sure! That would muffle the sound even more. It might be difficult to get a uniform feel though, but if the foam/cardboard would have a cutout resting on top, that might help achieve that.

There is one thing I should add to the app as well, separate x and y skew correction. When I did the cutout for the alphanumeric section, I didn't need y-correction, since the y-skew became pretty much insignificant. When using larger cutouts, it might be necessary though.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 10 January 2011, 15:27:57
Tomorrow I'll be printing off your cutouts and trying them out. :D I want to silence my Cherry Blues as much as is feasible - I'll see how much this route can buy me before I glue the stems in one piece.

Hoping that I'll pretty much be able to silence the MX blacks as well. The computer is in the same room that my g/f and I sleep in so I need a stealth keyboard. Logitech illuminated was pretty good for that before.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Mon, 10 January 2011, 16:35:56
Quote from: symphonic1985;276254
Tomorrow I'll be printing off your cutouts and trying them out. :D I want to silence my Cherry Blues as much as is feasible - I'll see how much this route can buy me before I glue the stems in one piece.

Hoping that I'll pretty much be able to silence the MX blacks as well. The computer is in the same room that my g/f and I sleep in so I need a stealth keyboard. Logitech illuminated was pretty good for that before.


Cool :)

I just finished writing up calibration instructions, they seem a bit daunting at first, but when you've done it once you'll realize it's no big deal at all.

I'm probably going to add a few commands to the app (dedicated stabilizer command is one of them), but I need to get a few things out of the way first.

The latest version of the app is attached, as well as the instructions.

Post your results and good luck! BTW, what material are you going to use? I still think rubber would be ideal.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Mon, 10 January 2011, 17:53:36
Quote from: elef;276031
Thanks for posting the png, intealls.


Don't use that png for creating the cutout! Download the app and create a calibrated printout. Also, that png has got a very low resolution. The app generates images with much higher res, which makes for more exact printouts.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Wed, 12 January 2011, 03:48:31
I got the program to work on my computer at work (Ubuntu) where I have access to a printer (and supplies!) I printed on some card but I need to get the calibration right - I didn't have a ruler with me at the office.

Later today I'll try again and see if I can make the printer work! Any tips for the cutting - how careful do you really need to be?
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elef on Wed, 12 January 2011, 04:15:37
Quote from: intealls;276336
Don't use that png for creating the cutout! Download the app and create a calibrated printout. Also, that png has got a very low resolution. The app generates images with much higher res, which makes for more exact printouts.


What do you mean by calibrated? As in calibrating the printer? I'm not sure if that's worth the hassle.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Wed, 12 January 2011, 10:58:07
Quote from: symphonic1985;277275
I got the program to work on my computer at work (Ubuntu) where I have access to a printer (and supplies!) I printed on some card but I need to get the calibration right - I didn't have a ruler with me at the office.

Later today I'll try again and see if I can make the printer work! Any tips for the cutting - how careful do you really need to be?


If the holes fit too snugly, try increasing the rec size. I think they're 14.0 mm in size in the last configuration. My cutting technique is not very good, but my cut sheets fit pretty good over the kb anyway. So I don't think you need to be that careful. :)
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: intealls on Wed, 12 January 2011, 11:21:55
Quote from: elef;277277
What do you mean by calibrated? As in calibrating the printer? I'm not sure if that's worth the hassle.

You could try this attached image, there is no correction, so if your printer prints exactly what your computer tells it, it should fit nicely. The resolution is 400 px/cm.

Also, a warning. If you're on a slow computer, don't open this image in your browser, save it and open it in some other app.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: elef on Wed, 12 January 2011, 15:50:40
Thanks for the higher res png, I have downloaded it.
The first G80-3000 order fell through (the seller didn't have it in stock after all and cancelled my order after confirming it), but I ordered again from a different seller so hopefully it's on its way by now.
I'll let you know if I decide to do this and try the rubber sheet.
Title: Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?
Post by: CeeSA on Sat, 22 January 2011, 15:05:40
here is my first very simple try to avoid the noise from bottom out:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14621 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14621)