Print Page - Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: IBMPCDOS5 on Sun, 26 February 2017, 21:39:36

Title: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: IBMPCDOS5 on Sun, 26 February 2017, 21:39:36

In today's MK industry, the leading linear switch are the infamous Cherry MX Blacks. Compared to MOST linear switches, Blacks feel rough, scratchy and overall unpleasant to type on. Yet back in the 80's, "Vintage" Blacks were considerably much smoother. Some report that it feels almost lubed. Alps also made fantastic linear switches, notably the SKCL Green switches in particular. So how comparable are they? Both seem to be smooth and absolutely gorgeous to the ears.

Sent from my SM-S120VL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: davkol on Mon, 27 February 2017, 04:29:13

Alps switches age terribly and suffer from dust exposure. SKCL Green, that I've used, felt awful.

That said, old MX Black may feel suboptimal too in some cases (I have poorly stored Wyse and other non-Cherry boards in mind specifically).

That said, I consider harvesting from the best OG Cherry boards a heresy, although I actually don't quite feel the same about most keyboards with Alps switches.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: pr0ximity on Mon, 27 February 2017, 05:13:47

They're a bit different. I'd say when clean and properly lubed they are equivalently awesome, however SKCL have a very slight tactility due to their contact leaf design. So Blacks are the more purely smooth, uninterrupted linears.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: chyros on Mon, 27 February 2017, 05:44:03

I've had relatively bad luck with SKCL green so far, neither of mine are in good condition. However, linearised black Alps are at least as smooth as vintage blacks, if not smoother, I'd say. As mentioned, they also have an ever so slight tactility, which IMO makes for a less boring keyfeel. Also, I consider the weighting to be much better as MX blacks are too heavy for me. I can't speak for myself, but apparently SKCL green in NOS condition are ridiculously good - which I can imagine, because even my crappy ones were good enough that I typed my entire 300-page PhD thesis on them.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: IBMPCDOS5 on Mon, 27 February 2017, 06:57:30

I am well-aware of that miniscule tactility that every Alps switch has with a switchplate. So the smoothness is quite comparable to Linear Black Alps/Green Alps but the keyfeel is completely different due to keyfeel and that tactility?

Sent from my SM-S120VL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 27 February 2017, 11:17:19

Vintage blacks are smooth, but vintage green alps are smoother if you get them clean

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 27 February 2017, 17:58:20

I have a NOS keyboard with SKCL greens, but I don't have any Vintage MX blacks with me.
If you allow me to borrow the opinions of some of the MX switches experts here (in a few threads said vintage blacks, nixies, and Gateron blacks are very similar except for the wobbles) and let me compare Gateron blacks on a few months old modern keyboard with NOS SKCL greens, I would say both are very smooth, obviously smoother than modern MX blacks, but Gateron blacks are even tiny bit smoother giving my fingers a bit of a buttery smooth sensation.

The comparison was not totally fair: SKCL greens had PBT caps and Gateron blacks had POM caps. The 'slippery' characteristics of POM caps might have intensified the sensation of smoothness during key presses.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: digi on Mon, 27 February 2017, 18:12:07

Cherry Silvers

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: Potatomonkey on Mon, 27 February 2017, 21:59:18

Quote from: digi on Mon, 27 February 2017, 18:12:07

Cherry Silvers

This guy

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: IBMPCDOS5 on Mon, 27 February 2017, 22:16:47

Quote from: Potatomonkey on Mon, 27 February 2017, 21:59:18

Quote from: digi on Mon, 27 February 2017, 18:12:07
Cherry Silvers

This guy

Yeah.

Sent from my SM-S120VL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: mike52787 on Tue, 28 February 2017, 19:24:43

weighing the pros and cons of each, and both are great switches, I would rather use the V blacks instead of the SKCL greens. I just like them better. both are good linears. I just think that tuned vintage blacks are just that much better.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: klennkellon on Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:06:52

Vintage Alps are great and all but at the end of the day just getting some Gaterons is a better idea. They're smooth and cheap and available in a variety of weights. Of course they don't sound as good as Alps but they're just linear switches at the end of the day.

However tactile/clicky MX based switches are nothing compared to tactile or clicky Alps!

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: wodan on Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:35:49

Quote from: IBMPCDOS5 on Sun, 26 February 2017, 21:39:36

In today's MK industry, the leading linear switch are the infamous Cherry MX Blacks.

That is total rubbish. How did you come up with this claim?
Hardly ANY modern keyboard comes with MX Blacks. They used to be the leading linear switch in the late 80s and 90s.

Quote from: IBMPCDOS5 on Sun, 26 February 2017, 21:39:36

Alps also made fantastic linear switches, notably the SKCL Green switches in particular. So how comparable are they? Both seem to be smooth and absolutely gorgeous to the ears.

Complicated gree Alps have the same issue all Alps have - people love the IDEA of this switch and how it feels brand new. But the comments in this thread clearly show you what a piece of crap even complicated green Alps are ... they will eventually start to feel like ****. Even if you get them NOS/NIB ... using them means "using them up" unless you are willing to desolder the whole board (such a pain with Alps switches - WHO BENDS ALL THESE LEGS !?!) and do a full cleaning job on them to restore them back to near-NIB.

On the other hand ... you can see that MX Black switches from the 80s are in expecially high demand today and few people ask about the condition of them. They hardly suffer from use - and some MX switch types are even more desirable after being heavily used!

So what are you really asking? What's better: NOS 80s MX Blacks or NOS Complicated Green Alps?

Stop troubling your mind with all these hypothetical questions, MX switches are the best PRACTICAL linear switches. There's a reason Cherry has been making them _NEARLY_ unchanged in design for more than 30 years and the original 80s design is currently dominating the MK market. Not a single Alps switch has been made for even a fraction of that time ...

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: happylacquer on Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:56:58

Topre for sure.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30

Quote from: happylacquer on Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:56:58

Topre for sure.

It's kind of a trolling post here ... :))

But Topre being as smooth if not smoother than Vintage Black can be true according to the readings from Haata's key force gauge.

(https://plot.ly/~haata/175.png)
(https://plot.ly/~haata/171.png)
(https://plot.ly/~haata/177.png)

(https://plot.ly/~haata/266.png)
(https://plot.ly/~haata/72.png)
Notice the more obvious tiny fluctuations in the curves of modern MX black.

After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?

P.s. Here are links to some other measured force curves:

Alps SKCL Yellows (usually people prefer Greens because they think Greens are lighter and better)
Gateron Red
https://plot.ly/~haata/150/gateron-red/
Cherry MX Red
https://plot.ly/~haata/88/cherry-mx-red/
Cherry RGB MX Red
https://plot.ly/~haata/268/cherry-mx-red-rgb/

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: IBMPCDOS5 on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:42:52

Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30

Quote from: happylacquer on Wed, 01 March 2017, 02:56:58
Topre for sure.

It's kind of a trolling post here ... :))

But Topre being as smooth if not smoother than Vintage Black can be true according to the readings from Haata's key force gauge.

More
Show Image
(https://plot.ly/~haata/175.png)

Show Image
(https://plot.ly/~haata/171.png)

Show Image
(https://plot.ly/~haata/177.png)

Show Image
(https://plot.ly/~haata/266.png)

Show Image
(https://plot.ly/~haata/72.png)

Notice the more obvious tiny fluctuations in the curves of modern MX black.

After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?

Oh, I've seen scratchy rubber domes, but I'm not sure if it's because of the actual rubber or the slider well it's in. They still somehow managed xD

Sent from my SM-S120VL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: chyros on Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:14:40

Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30

After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?

Oh dear, you don't want to know what kind of rubber monstrosities are out there xD .

In fact, rubber has inherent great friction. It's used as a friction-adding material in many applications, even.

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: IBMPCDOS5 on Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:19:14

Quote from: chyros on Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:14:40

Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30
After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?
Oh dear, you don't want to know what kind of rubber monstrosities are out there xD .

In fact, rubber has inherent great friction. It's used as a friction-adding material in many applications, even.

Still, those force curves made me want Topre even more than ever, seeing how smooth they are new.

Sent from my SM-S120VL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 08:26:38

Quote from: chyros on Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:14:40

Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30
After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?
Oh dear, you don't want to know what kind of rubber monstrosities are out there xD .

In fact, rubber has inherent great friction. It's used as a friction-adding material in many applications, even.

Oh right, some rubber doms even have enhanced friction and people like them a lot. :p

(http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/DoYAAOxygj5Sk0-F/s-l225.jpg)

... but wait..!

I'm not talking about rubbing onto the surface of some rubber material. I am talking about the 'smoothness' of reaction of rubber when it is under stress / force due to rubber's property even when they are molded in dome shapes. And we are not directly comparing rubber in dome shapes to some solid pieces of metal, but to certain kind of metal cast and formed into spring structures, which give them extra flexibility and different properties when the whole structural unit is stress.

i.e. how smooth the movement of the structure in reaction to stress in the forms of: compression, tension, shear, and torsion.

(https://pmsstem.wikispaces.com/file/view/forces.PNG/365294612/800x603/forces.PNG)

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: chyros on Wed, 01 March 2017, 08:43:42

Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 08:26:38

Quote from: chyros on Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:14:40
Quote from: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:22:30
After all, Topre's rubber dome is made of rubber. How can rubber be not smooth?
Oh dear, you don't want to know what kind of rubber monstrosities are out there xD .

In fact, rubber has inherent great friction. It's used as a friction-adding material in many applications, even.

Oh right, some rubber doms even have enhanced friction and people like them a lot. :p

Show Image
(http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/DoYAAOxygj5Sk0-F/s-l225.jpg)

... but wait..!

I'm not talking about rubbing onto the surface of some rubber material. I am talking about the 'smoothness' of reaction of rubber when it is under stress / force due to rubber's property even when they are molded in dome shapes. And we are not directly comparing rubber in dome shapes to some solid pieces of metal, but to certain kind of metal cast and formed into spring structures, which give them extra flexibility and different properties when the whole structural unit is stress.

i.e. how smooth the movement of the structure in reaction to stress in the forms of: compression, tension, shear, and torsion.

Show Image
(https://pmsstem.wikispaces.com/file/view/forces.PNG/365294612/800x603/forces.PNG)

That's fair enough, but there's no way you're going to convince me that rubber is smoother when pressed than a metal spring :p .

Title: Re: Vintage MX Blacks vs. Green SKCL Alps - Which is smoother?
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 01 March 2017, 10:50:05

Physical aspects of the material and structure of a key switch are mostly about a deformation design - i.e. about a structure (made of certain material of choice) that will give during a key press and will return to its original shape upon release. Of course, there are details, e.g. the force required to further collapse this structure (force curve), and the time it takes to bounce back, etc.

Rubber is actually quite suitable for this task. The ingenuity here is also that by molding it into certain forms, the structure can provide a more linear or a more tactile force curve (perhaps metal can too but I can't see such a metal structure exists). Certain elastic rubber or polymer compounds can be stronger than if not just comparable to steel, and these materials can maintain their shapes even better.

I think our disinterest (or dislike, or even hatred... xD) in rubber is due to its apparent short lifespan. I also witnessed how quickly rubber bands can become unusable. I hope the rubber dome sheets in Topre or in some other rubber dome keyboards that I like can last longer, after all there are now rubber materials that are resistant to UV, oxidatoin / ozone, and temperature.

I tried to find out how long can rubber (or specifically in here those rubber dome sheets) last before they need to be replaced. And what conditions lead to their degradation - physical movement (usage)? exposure to certain chemicals? exposure to other things such as light (UV) or extreme temperature? So far, I found no answer about how long they can last - except for information of changing tires and changing rubber for table tennis paddles - where both usage are friction related. These users said - probably they need to replace there rubber components once per year..!
Okay HHKB users... :eek:

Physical properties of rubber (http://www.satoriseal.com/technical/technical_articles/physical_properties_of_rubber.htm)
Deformation (related measurements) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation_(engineering))
Usage of rubber for shock isolation (https://www.modusadvanced.com/resources/blog/why-rubber-is-used-for-vibration-and-shock-isolation/)
[ur=http://www.sts-schwingungstechnik.de/en/gummi-als-baustoff/l]Usage of rubber in construction[/url]