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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: firestorm on Tue, 09 February 2010, 21:56:53

Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Tue, 09 February 2010, 21:56:53: A coworker loved the ABS M1 and happily bought it off me. She lives alone, so noise wasn't a concern and she wouldn't pay much more than $50 for a keyboard anyway.

I got the green light from my accountant (aka. Wife, mostly because she's the attorney) to order the Filco, but I figure I may as well wait until the morning - I'm only up this late, because we watched "Lost". It kills me a little to see that it will be shipped from CA. That means probably at least 3 days to get here by standard ground, which puts me in danger of not receiving it until Monday. I'm simply not very patient with such things.

At any rate, the FKB104M/EB sounds near perfect for us. The "accountant" can't live without the touchpad, and it's a little too pricey to go for a Tenless *and* a keypad when I'm not bothered by the standard layout - the Tenless just looks cool to me. I'm still a little concerned that the keys will be a little too light for my tastes, but I'm sure I'll adjust if that is the case - I'd just prefer to have it feel darn near perfect right out of the box. We'll see I guess.

Thanks to everybody that offered input.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 09 February 2010, 22:31:19: Quote from: firestorm;157471
A coworker loved the ABS M1 and happily bought it off me. She lives alone, so noise wasn't a concern and she wouldn't pay much more than $50 for a keyboard anyway.

I got the green light from my accountant (aka. Wife, mostly because she's the attorney) to order the Filco, but I figure I may as well wait until the morning - I'm only up this late, because we watched "Lost". It kills me a little to see that it will be shipped from CA. That means probably at least 3 days to get here by standard ground, which puts me in danger of not receiving it until Monday. I'm simply not very patient with such things.

At any rate, the FKB104M/EB sounds near perfect for us. The "accountant" can't live without the touchpad, and it's a little too pricey to go for a Tenless *and* a keypad when I'm not bothered by the standard layout - the Tenless just looks cool to me. I'm still a little concerned that the keys will be a little too light for my tastes, but I'm sure I'll adjust if that is the case - I'd just prefer to have it feel darn near perfect right out of the box. We'll see I guess.

Thanks to everybody that offered input.

I had this board before. You're gonna love it. It has a very light touch, it's a great board all around, it's smaller form factor than the usual full size keyboard. It's damn sexy. Lightness of touch sometimes is suprising to people used to heavier switches, but give it a week and you'll never want to touch rubber dome again.

Congrats on the purchase.

(http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/ga/ul/669001318931/inlineimg/Y/fat_bastard.jpg)
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:16:48: The only board that I've used, and seen key weight directly compared, is the ABS M1. I haven't typed on a Model M much in the last 10 years, and probably not at all in 5. I'm using a Dell AT101W at home right now, but I'm not sure how that compares.

To me, the ABS M1 was nearly the same, probably slightly heavier than, most of the membrane boards I've used. I believe I generally type relatively lightly, unless I'm rushing, so I suspect I'll love it right from the start.

I was using the M1 quite a lot at work the last few days, but don't really want to invest my own money for work. I may be stuck with a membrane board unless i can convince my boss that I must have a mechanical.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:23:02: The Model M is a little heavier than the ALPS-type switches, but they are worlds smoother, which sort of lightens the perception of resistance of the BS. Real, complicated ALPS are a little lighter and slightly smoother than the simplified ALPS-compatibles in the ABS. Unless you want to go considerably lighter like Cherry browns/blues or Topres (45-55g.), the best (easy-to-find) switch is the BS.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:59:32: I think I get what you're saying, since I'm pretty sure I was far less apt to typing hard on Model M boards vs. pretty much anything else. Just on the ABS, it seemed that I would type harder when I typed fast just because my fingers couldn't get a consistent feel. I'd say that the AT101W is somewhere between those two, but it's hard to say when the loudness of the ABS may have changed my perception.

It's hard to say that I want something lighter. From my short period of observation here, it seems that a lot of us would take a keyboard that sounded like a cherry switch board, but with the feel of the Model M (perhaps slightly lighter key weight.) I'm also pretty happy with the AT101W, including noise wise. It's not the smoothest, but I bet even that could be improved with a bit of lube. That said, I doubt that the lightness of the Filco will bother me - I'd give it a 5% chance that it will and I'll have to learn to adapt. And I even more certain that bottoming out won't bother me, so it might be a moot point altogether, as long as there is a tactile feel there.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 10 February 2010, 13:38:04: I hesitated for a moment, giving the G80-3000 some deep consideration, but went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Filco. Even as one that knows how worthwhile a good keyboard is, and the prices that they've always gone for, it still feels a little crazy dropping that kind of cash on one.

I can't wait to at least get a tracking number.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 February 2010, 13:43:11: Congrats. You'll definitely be happy with it. Did you go Tenkeyless or regular?
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 10 February 2010, 15:28:24: 104. If it were just me, I'd probably go Tenless, but we do use the keypad once a week for Quicken. And the 104 is cheaper than the Tenless+keypad, so...
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 February 2010, 15:36:17: This is my complaint on the Filco Tenkeyless. Unlike other space saving keyboards, the Filco does not have a "virtual" numpad. The IBM has it and so does the Topre Realforce series. I use the numpad quite a bit. A virtual one is good enough for my needs, but none at all won't work, and the add-on defeats the purpose for my needs. Oh well.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 10 February 2010, 17:45:14: I really hate gender-based ads. Anything that automatically disregards 50% of humanity starts off behind.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 10 February 2010, 18:14:55: Quote
If grannies would buy most stuff, they would rule the world, in commercials.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7809&stc=1&d=1265847251)

photo credit (http://www.deviantart.com/print/28896/)
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 10 February 2010, 21:52:36: Quote from: firestorm;157618
I hesitated for a moment, giving the G80-3000 some deep consideration, but went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Filco. Even as one that knows how worthwhile a good keyboard is, and the prices that they've always gone for, it still feels a little crazy dropping that kind of cash on one.

I can't wait to at least get a tracking number.

The G80-3000 with blue Cherries is a very good keyboard in my opinion, mainly because blue Cherries are my favourite switches. That being said, I think you'll like the Filco. It's a nice looking keyboard and not very noisy, which seems to be an important factor in your case. I use a Filco with brown Cherries at work every day and love it.

If you don't want to invest too much money in keyboard for work, you may consider getting a G80-3000 with blue Cherries from geminicomputers.com. They may not have it in stock, but you can always call them and get them to custom order it for you unless it's no longer available. The only problem (not a deal-breaker for me) is that it will come with Chinese characters on them. I would not want to use a rubber dome at work anymore unless it's a Keytronic.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 10 February 2010, 21:54:23: Quote from: ricercar;157668
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7809&stc=1&d=1265847251)

photo credit (http://www.deviantart.com/print/28896/)

I was not very patriarchal to begin with, but I'm surprised to see how I started to adopt more of a feminist perspective after becoming the father of a baby girl.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Thu, 11 February 2010, 08:31:29: I'm a Network Admin, not a programmer, so most of my typing is limited to short bursts of commands. At this point, these Dell boards have been vastly better than some of the AOpen junk we've had in the past - those were numb AND sticky. The wave of machines before that came with Keytronics, so it was that much worse when the AOpens rolled in. I certainly never loved the Dell boards, although they do look great, but they're easier to live with in ignorance. The one I'm on now is better than the others.

I always liked Keytronic keyboards, but it did help to apply some graphite to the bigger keys. I seem to remember shift keys binding up in particular.

FWIW, I was just remembering an old rack-able Compaq w/trackball that I used to use 10+ years ago - server room at my last job. Since I don't remember it being clicky, i bet it had browns in it. I just remember thinking, "Man, I wish more keyboards felt like this." Of course, there was also the hard core engineer with a Model M - keys set to Dvorak
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: didjamatic on Thu, 11 February 2010, 08:39:22: Yes, but a GOOD Network Admin has to type a lot of documentation and since they aren't constantly putting out fires, will have plenty of time for IM, Email and Geekhack at work. :)

Yes, the Compaq you're remembering was almost certainly a MX-11800 with Cherry Browns (Board made by Cherry for Compaq)
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 11 February 2010, 08:52:48: Quote from: firestorm;157778

FWIW, I was just remembering an old rack-able Compaq w/trackball that I used to use 10+ years ago - server room at my last job. Since I don't remember it being clicky, i bet it had browns in it. I just remember thinking, "Man, I wish more keyboards felt like this."

You're probably talking about the Compaq MX 11800 (http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/11802/front_1_s.jpg).
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Thu, 11 February 2010, 09:22:48: True about documentation... 'though most things haven't changed that much around here lately, and having been tied up with other things, documentation hasn't been a main focus of mine for a while. It really should be, but it's not. Most of it gets shuffled over to our programmer, particularly the recovery guides. Most of my typing is probably MS Access and Visio. FWIW, I *am* constantly putting out fires... if I don't have a server or switch acting up, AT&T will keep me on my toes.

And it was definitely the Compaq MX 11800. I think I could use one of those if it had Windows keys. Our current HP consoles have rubber domes. :( Then again, Remote Desktop has relegated those to minimal usage.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Tue, 16 February 2010, 09:08:05: Quote
Feb 16, 2010 7:46 AM
On FedEx vehicle for delivery

It's almost here! FedEx was killing me. I didn't get any tracking updates after the 12th, even though it said the "Next scheduled update" was the 13th. I guess the package was on the truck from CA straight to Chicago. It made it from Chicago to MI overnight. A day early! Woot!
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 17 February 2010, 18:58:41: Well, FedEx wouldn't let me off easy. My guess is that my package was low priority yesterday, and packages that ran a risk of being "late" were delivered first. They finally attempted delivery at 5:30pm, after business closed. What irks me is that a FedEx truck stopped by at 10am for other deliveries, but apparently didn't have my package. Oh well, at least I got it "on time."

I typed on the Filco a fair amount at work, and finally have it home. It's amazing how similar it looks to the ABS M1, yet how different it feels. It's sooo much quieter, and in some ways too quiet. The key feel is pretty light, but I also seem to be doing fairly well at typing lightly on it. I can also imagine why the Blues are a common favorite, and I would probably even welcome the clicking sound. I still get the impression that, feel-wise, the Blues are what I would need. Still, the feel of this board is very impressive and more than acceptable, and it appears it will be an excellent compromise. I expected this to be a little louder at home, just as the ABS M1 was, but so far I don't get that impression. Then again, it may simply be because it is also quieter than the Dell AT101W.

It could stand to be a little stiffer, and ever so slightly louder - a bit closer to the AT101W - then it would be perfect for me. As I acclimate to this board though, my opinion is likely to change, especially since I believe that's really just me nitpicking. Besides, if I want this board to sing, I could just start bottoming out the keys... most of the time, it actually seems to be a fairly pleasant sound IMO.

I did a few very brief typing tests on it earlier, and I was just as fast, or faster, on this board. I hit 93 WPM on one test, but it is a ridiculous test - just random words, and no punctuation. I was only at 89 WPM on the ABS though.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:25:33: Actually, I changed my mind. The sound is just about perfect. I listened to my wife type on this thing, and it sounds like music. Totally unobtrusive, but still audible.

She also very much approves of the keyboard itself, so we're looking good.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: mp29k on Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:40:17: Gotta love the sounds of Browns... I even like the bottom out sounds.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 February 2010, 07:28:55: The browns are money, IMO. I am going to see how they compare to the Topres soon, but for now, the browns are at the top of my list. If it turns out you really like them, check out the G80-3000 from Datacal.com with browns. I like it better than the Filco.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Thu, 18 February 2010, 08:38:00: I saw that you have a preference for the G80-3000, and considered it over the Filco for a while. In the end, I suppose you could say I opted for form over function in this case - the size of the Filco is a bonus as well. I would like a Cherry board for work though... I honestly would've been fine with it if they would just chop an inch off the top.

For now, I think I'll see if I can find a cheap PS2-USB converter for the old Dell AT101W, and use that at work. So far, I haven't found anything locally that isn't $30. The PC recycler around the corner has a few, but I'm sure they're OE specific cable adapters (i.e. Most are straight cables; no electronics to suggest they do signal conversion.) I either need to confirm which of those available on the internet are compatible with that board, or, more likely, I'll run into the recycler with the AT101W in hand and give those a shot. All I know is, this Dell board is less bearable after using the Filco.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 February 2010, 08:50:38: The Dell is a nice starter 'board if you haven't really used mechanicals before. Once you start checking out some of the other switches, the ALPS in the Dell (and, IMO, ALPS in general) don't feel as nice anymore.

You are right, the G80-3000 is a battleship of a keyboard and takes up a fair chunk of real estate. Until Cherry decides we're a viable enough market for some of their smaller form factor G80s, the 3000 is the best we can do. It's unfortunate, too, because I really like Cherry 'boards in terms of keyfeel even if they aren't very pretty.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Thu, 18 February 2010, 10:14:21: I think the G80 looks alright... I wouldn't say it's ugly. It doesn't appear to be any bigger than the AT101W, and that was actually the measure I went by, given that the AT101W sucked up a huge portion of our desk.

Unfortunately, so long as my boss holds her ground, I won't be buying anything for work using company money. She's afraid everybody will want one, when the fact is, there's only 3-4 people who type enough to care, and I bet only 2 would care enough to ask for a replacement. My only chance is if Dell starts stocking reasonable mechanical replacements that I could buy with the next set of workstations, but they seem to only stock POS boards.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Fri, 19 February 2010, 12:31:03: I decided to bring the Filco in to work with me today, since I haven't had much seat time at home. Last night, I noticed that the home keys have already started to get shiny, and it's happening even quicker today. But I have greasy skins - always have. It doesn't help that I had Cheddar Ruflles with my lunch, even if I did wash my hands before touching the keyboard again. At any rate, my impression thus far, concerning the shiny key "problem" is that it seems that the finish takes on oil readily. I'm not too concerned about it though, other than it will "age" the look of the board obviously.

I'm otherwise very happy with it and can't find enough to type - thus having it at work today. I've done a few typing tests - more accurate ones that include lots of punctuation and such - and find that I'm consistently hitting 85-93 WPM, perhaps slightly faster than the membrane boards I've been using. I'm happy with that.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 February 2010, 12:36:27: Don't worry. In another week, you'll be able to comb you hair in the spacebar. It happens.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 19 February 2010, 12:42:41: (http://www.calumetphoto.com/resources/images/prod_tnlg/c2d0bf119d3349188ab5df778abd2189.jpg)

Luckily I don't give a rat's ass about shiny keys.
My boards are tools, they don't need to have that I'm sitting here only to look cool appearance.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 February 2010, 13:21:37: I don't really care, either. I mean, it's going to happen. What calls your attention to it, though, is how fast it happens. My Cherry G80-3000 looks the same as the day I bought it, while my Filcos started going shiny within a couple of weeks.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 19 February 2010, 13:23:05: I don't have to worry about shiny keys because I use a Model M!
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: firestorm on Sat, 20 February 2010, 09:55:08: You know how you sometimes don't appreciate how good or bad something is, unless you have a comparison?

Just before I left work yesterday, I had to re-box the Filco, then had a few more things to type before I left. Now, when I did this with the ABS M1, I noticed a quite a difference as I switched back to the Dell. This was much more drastic - simply incredible. It was like my fingers cried. Of course, the stiffness/weight of the ABS M1 keys and tactile point was much closer to that of the Dell, so the big difference was the muddiness.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 20 February 2010, 10:24:12: I was like that before I got an old IBM keyboard again. I used a wretched rubber dome from Dell from about 2002, but once I found that Model M, I've hated to even touch one of those old rubber domes.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stories like that here, except some having different "savior keyboards".
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: kishy on Sat, 20 February 2010, 11:03:40: The year was 2006, or thereabouts.
The setting: my (now former) high school auto shop, after school.

It was a good day for asking favours...or at least it must have been, because I left with two Model Ms.

Something about conjuring up memories from using one on a PS/2 in grade school...I've been on a crusade to make everyone see the superiority of Model Ms since I got those two keyboards.

One of them, I still have. The other, I partially still have (it's been parted out).

That's my story that nobody cares about. Cheers!
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 07:49:09: Huh? Sorry, Kishy, what was that you were saying?
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: kishy on Mon, 22 February 2010, 07:57:39: Quote from: itlnstln;159943
Huh? Sorry, Kishy, what was that you were saying?

I figured since we floated O/T I might as well make it interesting.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: AvengeR on Mon, 22 February 2010, 10:28:38: a bit of offtopic: which filco would you prefer for fpsgaming+typing, blues or browns? I know this question has been asked here a lot but for example itlnstln likes browns better and ripster prefers the blues (signature).

Doing some research before making the big move, being around usd$200 including shipment, taxes, etc. (filco tenkeyless, import from the us to chile)
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 10:37:51: Quote from: AvengeR;159964
I know this question has been asked here a lot but for example itlnstln likes browns better and ripster prefers the blues (signature).

This is how you know you post too much. People begin to think your opinion is worth something.

If you can afford it, get one keyboard for gaming and one for typing. Otherwise, I think you would be better off getting a keyboard for the activity you do most (whichever one best fits the task in your opinion).

Vague answer is vague.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Mon, 22 February 2010, 11:33:50: Quote from: AvengeR;159964
a bit of offtopic: which filco would you prefer for fpsgaming+typing, blues or browns?

I think browns are a good compromise, if you have to make one.
While blues are my favorites, they got a tiny little bit on my nerves when gaming. So I'm using a modded bastard with blues for typing and browns for gaming now.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: AvengeR on Mon, 22 February 2010, 12:23:24: it's brown then.
Ofc i won't switch between keyboards just to play.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 12:56:15: Well, I usually reccomend a Nostromo N52 as I think that is a better solution than a keyboard for gaming anyway.
Title: New Keyboard - Take Two: Filco w/Browns
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 22 February 2010, 15:09:16: Quote from: itlnstln;159982
Well, I usually reccomend a Nostromo N52 as I think that is a better solution than a keyboard for gaming anyway.

Agreed. Keyboard for typing, Nostromo for gaming.