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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: leos on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:28:42

Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:28:42: Since a week i give a try to Colemak. I dont try Dvorak because the []{} are in the wrong place. Positive is that most of time with colemak i type in the home row.

Now the speed i type goes from 100+ wpm in gwerty/qwertz in only six (6)wpm.
This is amazing. At least i am now 100% faster then at beginning (3 to 6). Is in this forum anyone that uses colemak? How much time it is needed to type at speeds about 50~60 wpm?.

wrote this in 20 min....
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:35:50: Uh oh, now you've done it. The Colemak Fan Club will be here any second.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Viett on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:41:59: I went Colemak cold turkey two days ago, but it helped that I knew the layout ahead of time. I would recommend you stick with tutors until you hit at least ~30WPM before you switch entirely. Otherwise, you'll just stress yourself out.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:48:13: i think for me it is much easier to switch between qwerty and colemak than between qwerty and dvorak. Colemac is only at the characters differed. This is a + point for me.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Mnemonix on Wed, 10 February 2010, 07:54:40: Quote from: leos;157531
Is in this forum anyone that uses colemak? How many time it is needed to type at speeds about 50~60 wpm?.

I switched to Colemak around the middle of November 2009, and dropped from ~50 WPM on QWERTY down to your current speed. I also switched from random-hacking-on-keys to touch typing at the same time. It took me around 2 frustrating weeks to pick up the layout using KTouch for training (while still using QWERTY at work), and I was at ~25 WPM afterwards. Now, 3 months after the switch, I'm a bit faster than before (~55 WPM). I think I've surpassed my old QWERTY speed a few weeks ago.

Don't know whether the speedup is to be attributed to touch typing or Colemak or the combination thereof, but at least I was able to keep using the touch typing technique with Colemak. I've tried it on QWERTY several times, but it always felt awkward.

If you can do 100 WPM now, you might be able to reach 50 WPM quicker than I did.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Korbin on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:32:57: A week is not nearly long enough for you to recoup your speed with a different layout, unless you are practicing for many hours a day. Stick with it, it just takes a long time for the brain to "re-wire" for the different layout.

I switched to dvorak (due to accessibility) almost 2 years ago and from what I remember it took nearly 3 weeks for me to match my speed in QWERTY and probably a good 6 weeks to see a speed increase.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: chongyixiong on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:43:51: I'll be a smartypants here and say, Rome was not built in a day..

Give it some time, just like how this guy (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8218) did and after a month later, he's all smiles!
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 10 February 2010, 08:54:18: It seems to me that if you've already achieved a consistent 90+ WPM on your previous layout, there's little to be gained from switching aside from perhaps trying something new for the hell of it. Your brain was already well wired for the other format.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Wed, 10 February 2010, 09:28:41: Quote from: Mercen_505;157554
It seems to me that if you've already achieved a consistent 90+ WPM on your previous layout, there's little to be gained from switching aside from perhaps trying something new for the hell of it. Your brain was already well wired for the other format.

my brain says yes to qwerty but not my fingers. If type excessive about an hour i feel the pain. The use of hhkb eased this and if the colemak gives me another 20% i will be verry happy.
Title: cognitive dissonance is healthy
Post by: onowak on Wed, 10 February 2010, 09:34:54: the cognitive dissonance is the worst part of learning a new layout.

but there have been studies that show its healthy for the brain.

the cognitive dissonance part.

-0.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: DreymaR on Wed, 10 February 2010, 10:30:22: Check out Ryan Heise's story. He went from a 100ish WPM QWERTY to ... well, depending on how it's measured he seems to be doing at least a 120 WPM Colemak now. But remember - it's all very individual and YMMV. A lot.

If you feel that being slowed down so much is a pain for you, you could try Tarmak which might allow you to keep a decent speed while learning Colemak gradually (this is what Colemak user Ezuk reported at least).

For ergonomy, I'd also recommend doing a ZXCVB shift (bringing the VK_102 to the middle instead) which can be done independently of layout choice) since you're a European keyboard user and thus hopefully have a proper 102/105-key board. Maybe even a Wide mod would help your hurt, and that's really easy to learn too without losing speed.

I'd go over to the Colemak forum for Colemak debates though, even if there are more and more crossover topics these days.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 February 2010, 10:55:49: Is there any other benefit to switching layouts other than speed? It would seem to me that if you're already typing 100 WPM+ on QWERTY, switching to another layout would be counter productive, or at the very least, the gains wouldn't match the investment in effort and time. IMO, unless you either gain 25% or more in speed (with accuracy intact) or need to pump out massive amounts of text where a 100 WPM to 115 WPM jump might make a difference, I don't know if it's worth the effort. I'm not knocking different layouts or anything, I just want to learn more.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Mnemonix on Wed, 10 February 2010, 11:07:15: Quote from: itlnstln;157588
Is there any other benefit to switching layouts other than speed?

I don't care a lot about speed, but more about comfort. Touch typing on QWERTY sucks; I tried to learn it properly several times, but I never got the hang (it always felt much less comfortable than my old hunt-and-peck method). Touch typing was a lot easier for me to get right on Colemak.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: ds26gte on Wed, 10 February 2010, 14:12:34: Quote from: itlnstln;157588
Is there any other benefit to switching layouts other than speed? It would seem to me that if you're already typing 100 WPM+ on QWERTY, switching to another layout would be counter productive, or at the very least, the gains wouldn't match the investment in effort and time. IMO, unless you either gain 25% or more in speed (with accuracy intact) or need to pump out massive amounts of text where a 100 WPM to 115 WPM jump might make a difference, I don't know if it's worth the effort. I'm not knocking different layouts or anything, I just want to learn more.

In fact, I would say that if you are already a competent typer (i.e., at your biomechanical potential) with QWERTY, switching will not produce any speed increase whatsoever. The common run of typing tests are short enough that burst speed will almost definitely overdetermine the result, and it is thus possible to get disheartened when the new layout doesn't improve this at all, even after many months.

On the positive side, burst speed does not need to decrease, and the typer is able to type longer without fatigue. In other words, you get to keep your sprint speed and still survive a marathon. If you want to increase your sprint speed too: improve your nutrition, practice Olympic or fast lifts, take steroids. A layout cannot give you fast-twitch muscle fibers you never had.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Korbin on Wed, 10 February 2010, 14:18:54: Quote from: Mnemonix;157594
I don't care a lot about speed, but more about comfort. Touch typing on QWERTY sucks; I tried to learn it properly several times, but I never got the hang (it always felt much less comfortable than my old hunt-and-peck method). Touch typing was a lot easier for me to get right on Colemak.

I second this reason for moving to an alternate layout. Even after using QWERTY for over 14 years Dvorak/Colemak is much more comfortable IMO.
Title: comfort, then speed
Post by: onowak on Wed, 10 February 2010, 14:38:34: i prefer typing in dvorak for its "comfort".

and because chicks dig it.

it took me about 3 months to get used to it though.

-0.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: MycoRunner on Wed, 10 February 2010, 16:37:41: Quote from: Mnemonix;157594
I don't care a lot about speed, but more about comfort. Touch typing on QWERTY sucks; I tried to learn it properly several times, but I never got the hang (it always felt much less comfortable than my old hunt-and-peck method). Touch typing was a lot easier for me to get right on Colemak.

I feel the same way. I used to have my own touch-type/hunt and peck hybrid but then I switched to real touch typing and it became more uncomfortable. Also my speed goes way down as soon as I hit a word with a P or Z or X or W in it.

I'm also trying Colemak, but it is pretty frustrating because I don't know the layout yet. I think I'm just going to switch the letters around on the key board and force myself to learn.

It also hurts my brain in a good way, :biggrin:
Title: Re: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 10 February 2010, 16:50:55: I'm almost back at my qwerty speed (hunt and peck, with memorized patterns) of ~80 WPM (~70 WPM Colemak) after a couple of months.
Mind you I only did the typing drills for the first week, then went straight to terminal/vim usage.
My fingers can easily handle much higher speeds, I just need to work on the muscle memory.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: zillidot on Wed, 10 February 2010, 17:31:45: Quote from: itlnstln;157588
Is there any other benefit to switching layouts other than speed?

I would go so far as to say that comfort, not speed, should be the primary reason for switching layouts. It seems that the maximum speed on the various layouts are all quite similar. But in my experience, there's a huge difference in the "feel" between dvorak and qwerty.

But comfort is a subjective thing, so ultimately which layout is best for you really depends on which "feel" you prefer.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: dusanx on Thu, 11 February 2010, 02:24:12: I had few very frustrating weeks when I switched AND had serious left wrist pain. Pain was there because spine wanted to touch type querty and brain wanted colemak. After two or three weeks I could not be happier because I switched. Hand positions are everything, index fingers must be placed on keys with bumps and stay there. With querty hands are more hovering all over the place than resting.

You will get your speed back when you stop trying to get your speed back.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: spremino on Thu, 11 February 2010, 03:51:25: Learning an ergonomic layout is not about speed, it's about comfort. Performing the comfortable movements required by Dvorak does not break my flow of thought the way performing awkward ones does.

The first week in learning is the worst. Things start to get better after the second week. Typing exercises are a must.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: arfink on Thu, 11 February 2010, 16:25:08: I have been very intrigued by the colemak and dvorak layouts for the purpose of more speedy typing. I have typed a very wrong style of qwerty for a log time, with my hands just all over the place on the board. I find that with a proper keyboard, like my Tandy 102 or Model F XT I can type with a good amount of accuracy and comfort. One thing I have found for keeping your hands more comfortable is proper hand exercises. I have played piano for many years, and there is a good technique to keep from having your hands hate you.

Essentially, this is what I do before typing or piano playing, with variation as needed depending on how stiff/whatever my hand are like that day: I begin with the thumb on one hand, and press the tip against my palm of the other hand firmly, with the joints bent such that the thumb is curved gracefully. Hold for a count of 7. Repeat with all your fingers, making sure to press as hard as you can without allowing your finger to bend more than the curve you set. Having your finger bend slightly backwards is tempting, since it takes the pressure of your muscles and put it on the joint itself- don't do it. If you keep your finger muscles strong you can type (or play piano) better/longer without feeling pain.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 11 February 2010, 16:30:24: Quote from: arfink;157867
I have typed a very wrong style of qwerty for a log time

Exactly.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: arfink on Thu, 11 February 2010, 16:32:48: Yes, I'm also working on a stupid POS laptop keyboard at the time of this post. Which is falling apart, and some keys don't respond correctly. :)

And yes, you're right, of course. Learning to type properly would probably be a good idea, but if I'm going to relearn typing I'm going to relearn with a new layout. Might as well.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: devilcm3 on Thu, 11 February 2010, 19:02:25: had a painful experience first week learning dvorak...
previously switching from my "custom style" qwerty typing...which is about 70~80wpm

use it for couple years before deciding i go for the right way of typing but realizing that i cant turn back on qwerty , so i go for dvorak and having a 50~60wpm now , maybe in the first year i can actually make it into my original speed
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Santa on Thu, 11 February 2010, 23:15:01: idk, qwerty always felt fine for me....

well, i have been typing since the 2nd grade :party:
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Viett on Thu, 11 February 2010, 23:26:01: I had a very strange experience today. As you know, I'm a couple days in cold turkey with Colemak, which is actually going pretty well.

Anyway, I've experienced the "unlearning" of Dvorak. I don't know why, but I have found that going back to Dvorak immediately is completely impossible. I'll either type nonsense, which in my mind is correct, or I'll shift into Colemak.

Anyway, maybe an hour's worth of "relearning" Dvorak has solved the problem. It wasn't so much remembering where the letters are, but rather how to move your fingers around from memory to get the desired text.

This also happened when I went from QWERTY to Dvorak -- and at the same stage of learning the layout (between knowing the letter positions and speeding up). It was less severe with QWERTY -> Dvorak, and switching to Colemak left my QWERTY skills unchanged.

I'm thinking, somehow in my mind, when I'm learning a new layout, it blends with layouts I already know. It's as if I have to sort the layouts out in my head to use them all.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 11 February 2010, 23:30:57: at least you can still speak qwerty... er, english.

this settles it, i'm definitely not learning dvorak :)
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 11 February 2010, 23:33:03: Here's something that layouts can't really affect: your ability to spell very fast. I find that the biggest barrier to me maintaining above 100 wpm is being able to spell the next word. What eventually gets me often is a misspelling or a word that I have to think about spelling and just by thinking I either have to slow down and have trouble getting back to speed again or I misspell it and really drop my pace.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 12 February 2010, 06:50:06: This may be a silly observation, but Dvorak just seems weird to me, whereas Colemak is a 'normal' layout. Dvorak has three punctuation symbols in the first 3 positions as Westerners read text. It's Pow, in your face! No Sir, you can't start typing yet, you have to hurdle those odd keys before you even start to progress.

I think this is the reason Dvorak had no chance of defeating Qwerty. Colemak would have fared better had it been created earlier, but now that the world and his dog knows Qwerty, even that will probably remain a minority interest. I hope it becomes a large minority though.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Viett on Fri, 12 February 2010, 07:42:55: Quote from: Rajagra;157931
Dvorak just seems weird to me, whereas Colemak is a 'normal' layout. Dvorak has three punctuation symbols in the first 3 positions as Westerners read text. It's Pow, in your face! No Sir, you can't start typing yet, you have to hurdle those odd keys before you even start to progress.

Colemak has no chance either. The Caps Lock remap just shoots them in the foot. Not having a Caps Lock in your standard layout is worse than having punctuation in strange places. I have to use a non-standard Colemak just to get my Caps Lock back, which is extremely annoying.

Quote from: hyperlinked;157905
Here's something that layouts can't really affect: your ability to spell very fast. I find that the biggest barrier to me maintaining above 100 wpm is being able to spell the next word. What eventually gets me often is a misspelling or a word that I have to think about spelling and just by thinking I either have to slow down and have trouble getting back to speed again or I misspell it and really drop my pace.

Definitely. Most of my QWERTY slowdowns are because of spellings.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 12 February 2010, 08:14:19: There's absolutely no reason to not use a Colemak without the CapsLock remapping if you're so inclined (and happen to like triple negations). I do, and I don't ever consider it non-standard.

However, to reiterate my old image:

(http://folk.uio.no/obech/Images/Colemak/BoardWarsCrawl.jpg)
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Fri, 12 February 2010, 08:27:47: Now i have reach the 10~12 WPM. I make a 20 min training per day. The colemak layout feels more comfortable. If i reach a writting speed about 20~30wpm, i will sit down and beginn to teach me the combis like "ctrl+x ctrl+c ctrl+l ......". In Qwertz i use ae for ä oe for ö and ue for ü.

Still use HHKB + colemak without big problems.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 12 February 2010, 08:58:47: Webwit: Did you or did I get lost in my negations? My point is:
- You don't have to use the CapsLock remap if you don't want to.
- So there's no reason you should have to.
- The HHKB isn't a reason to use the CapsLock remap - it's a perfectly good example of why you shouldn't have to (as is my much cheaper Extend layout)!
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: ds26gte on Sun, 14 February 2010, 08:10:33: Quote from: webwit;157951
Reason:

Show Image
(http://capsoff.wdfiles.com/local--files/happy-hacker/happy_hacker.jpg)

If the HHKB's Control key is remapped to Backspace in order to be "true" to Colemak, you could choose the Place-of-Interest key left of the spacebar for Control.

My (standard PC) laptop keyboard does have a CapsLock which Unix/Sun tradion would have me remap to Control, but I still choose the key left of the spacebar (Alt in this case) for Control, which I hit with the left thumb. It's actually even more ergo than CapsLock-as-Control, which can get deadly on the left pinky and wrist (especially because Control is always part of a keychord).

Using a Mac? Well, sure, this won't work there. Linux (and non-Mac Unices) thankfully doesn't need me to budget for extra modifier keys. It is strange to me that the normally button-averse Mac culture requires both Command and Control. It was disrupting to have use Cmd- for most Mac OS programs and then Ctrl- for the traditional Unix utilities like vi, bash, etc -- all on the same machine!
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: DreymaR on Mon, 15 February 2010, 03:17:40: Right now, I view the colemak project as several separate subprojects, only one of which is my take on 'true' colemak:

- The letter placements (including semicolon) is the 'true' colemak layout. This is where Shai Coleman did research and a whole lot of brilliant thinking to get a smooth layout that optimizes home row and digraphs and other typing goodness.
- The CapsLock-to-Backspace is a brilliant idea (which in my opinion has since been surpassed) but not a necessary part of colemak. It can just as easily be done with QWERTY or Dvorak or what-have-you. It's just that Shai Coleman came up with both the colemak layout per se and the Caps-to-Back key idea.
- The ZXCVB ergonomic wrist angle shift for ISO keyboards (on ANSI boards, the 'A-Frame' is possible but not quite as neat) is another such good idea; again, not necessary and can be used by anyone. I think it originated on the colemak forums (by me in part) but it's not really a part of colemak proper - just another good idea. Shai has hinted that it is recommended by him too for ISO boards though.
- Yet another such idea is the Wide ergonomic shift (the right-hand keys one step to the right) for better hand separation. Shai hasn't commented on that one at all and it may be too much for some and brilliant for others; it's a separate thing.
- Yet other people will muck around with some symbol key placements. Since Colemak doesn't touch those at all, you could do that and still call your keyboard a Colemak one. I don't bother myself, preferring to get Extend mappings for keys that I need to reach better.
- More controversial may be whether you can mess around with the AltGr mappings and still call it Colemak. In my view, you can. I don't think the AltGr mappings in the standard Colemak install are all that optimal and Shai has said that they aren't as well researched as the layout proper. I consider those too a separate idea.

I now use a ZXCVB-shifted, Wide, Caps-Extend Colemak layout with Norwegian glyphs and some other stuff on VK_102 and AltGr mappings. I still call it colemak... and I love colemak!
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Thu, 20 May 2010, 07:49:18: i am glad to inform you that my speed on collemac reach now constantly 100-110 wpm at varying degrees of Text density. No pain anymore. The only think i have changed is the left backspace to Capslock in a 104 Keyboard. With my HHKB this problem don't exist.

I have use M$ Kb Layout Creator (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx) to modify the layout.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: JBert on Thu, 20 May 2010, 12:38:41: So did you go for the real colemak layout with Caps lock replaced with backspace or did you just leave it as it is?
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 21 May 2010, 06:28:26: I wish everyone would agree that the CapsLock idea(s) could be decoupled from the letter layout idea(s) - which again should be decoupled from ideas like the Wide and Angle mods. Otherwise, it's so hard to discuss the ideas separately.

I do agree that Colemak's creator Shai Coleman isn't doing this (openly at least) but he isn't very verbally active anyway to my knowledge.

Personally, I'd recommend Shai's CapsLock idea to a QWERTY typist who felt the need for it, any day. It doesn't say 'Colemak' to me at all, just 'good idea'. (Then again, I feel that using CapsLock for an Extend key is an even better idea so that's what I do. I still type in Colemak.)
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: leos on Wed, 26 May 2010, 03:56:38: Quote from: JBert;184809
So did you go for the real colemak layout with Caps lock replaced with backspace or did you just leave it as it is?

I leave it as it is.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 26 May 2010, 14:25:30: Quote from: leos;184622
i am glad to inform you that my speed on collemac reach now constantly 100-110 wpm at varying degrees of Text density. No pain anymore. The only think i have changed is the left backspace to Capslock in a 104 Keyboard. With my HHKB this problem don't exist.

I have use M$ Kb Layout Creator (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx) to modify the layout.

3 months from 100+ qwerty to 100+ colemak with pain issue resolved.
That's great!

I'm not concerned about speed, comfort is the ticket for me.
Title: Amazing drop speed in .... Colemak
Post by: noctua on Sat, 29 May 2010, 10:05:20: Quote from: leos;184622
i am glad to inform you that my speed on collemac reach now constantly 100-110 wpm at varying degrees of Text density. No pain anymore. The only think i have changed is the left backspace to Capslock in a 104 Keyboard. With my HHKB this problem don't exist.

I have use M$ Kb Layout Creator (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx) to modify the layout.

Respect! You are registered at typrX - typing races (http://app.typrx.com/#), for speed validation? Whats your username there?