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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dion2k on Sun, 14 February 2010, 22:23:38

Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: dion2k on Sun, 14 February 2010, 22:23:38: Well, it's about that time; preparing to drop a couple hundred. Before I put it into motion I want to get a bit of feedback because I'm not 100% sure. I've done much reading and I've narrowed it down to two choices. Here's my situation:

I'm a professional FPS gamer (quakelive/tf2), but I also play mmos in off-season. I have gathered that the MX Black is the best switch for gaming because of it's stiffness and linearity. The linearity would be nice for mmos where I press the same key repeatedly, although I don't see it helping with FPS games too much--which is what really matters here. I should also say that the stiffness is not a factor for me as I do not accidentally press keys. Typing is also important to me and I'm not going to type on a linear switch so if I go with the black for gaming I will also be getting a brown for typing. That's scenario A.

Scenario B is that I just get a Realforce and use it for typing and gaming. I guess what it really comes down to is will the mx black give me an advantage over the realforce in FPS games, taking into account that I won't be repeatedly pressing the same key and that stiffness/accidental presses is irrelevant. If the black is at all superior to the realforce given these two factors then I will be getting a black and a brown. But if the Realforce will preform as well as the black then I'd prefer to have it over a brown as I've gathered that they are slightly more pleasant.

Any input is welcome. At the moment I'm leaning towards the Realforce but I have a few days to think it over.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: whininggit on Mon, 15 February 2010, 01:51:40: I'd say if you're unlikely to accidentally press keys, that makes a bigger case against the MX blacks. In my opinion, they are far too stiff, for gaming but especially for typing.

The MX browns are a much better choice. The Filco Majestouch is available with browns and n-Key rollover which seems perfect for your needs.

I haven't tried a Topre, so couldn't comment.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 February 2010, 03:25:00: That stiffness is pretty much what defines the Black Cherries. You'd be much better off with the Topre, they're expensive, but really good.
Title: Re: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: HaaTa on Mon, 15 February 2010, 03:32:03: Mx Reds? :P

Though unless you convince me to send you the board I'm carrying right now, as they are an "orient special" for no apparent reason, you're unlikely to find one very easily.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 15 February 2010, 03:33:35: Only problem with the topre is the A key is 35 grams, the S and W key are 40 grams, the D key is 45 grams. I still game with my topre well without difficulty with this being the case. You could mod it but that's a little daring for the price of the board.
Title: Re: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: HaaTa on Mon, 15 February 2010, 04:26:46: There are topre boards (Realforce) with all one switch weight. But again, hard to find.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: Xede on Mon, 15 February 2010, 06:00:52: Owning both, I basically only use the topre now because the key texture is much better than on the filco.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 15 February 2010, 08:02:19: The only downside to the Realforce is that the hump in the force curve is broad. It doesn't so much define the activation point, it surrounds it. That could be seen as a disadvantage for gaming.

However the Cherry blacks don't have any tactile feedback at all, so the Realforce still wins on that count.

I too think the Cherry browns would be enough for all your needs, so that might influence your price comparison. But if you stump up the cash for the Realforce you won't regret it. They feel better and sound better, a touch of luxury to be enjoyed. Just don't spill drinks near it.

I think that may even be your deciding factor - how much respect do you show your hardware? If you look after it and make things last a long time, get the Realforce. If you want to chuck it around and risk damaging it - get a Cherry brown board, it will hurt less if you have to replace it.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: cchan on Mon, 15 February 2010, 10:07:43: I agree with most posts here - go for a filco with cherry browns. The tactility is enough that you'll feel it when you are typing, but they are light enough that you won't feel it when you're gaming and pounding the switches.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: Viett on Mon, 15 February 2010, 12:41:24: I'm not a big fan of gaming with Cherry Blacks. They sort of trick you into thinking the keypresses are analog (harder press, you move faster). I've caught myself "sneaking" around corners by pressing WASD softly before. It's gotten me killed several times.

I would go with the browns, as others have said.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: dion2k on Mon, 15 February 2010, 15:29:39: I think I've decided on the Realforce 87U 55g. I have a feeling that if I go with the black and cherry boards that I will end up buying a Realforce anyway because I know that I'm going to love cherry switches. I'm currently typing on my old Model M, because a few of the switches on my Omnikey Ultra decided to crap out -- which really sucks because its in near-mint condition. I contacted Bob from northgate-keyboard-repair.com and he offered to sell me some pulled switches, I will probably repair it at some point. Now that I'm using this Model M I am annoyed by how heavy and loud the switches are, so I'm wanting to move on to something quiet and light but still tactile. Although my primary focus is gaming, I just don't imagine the black switches to be enjoyable. Moving around in Quake/TF2 is more of a feeling and I find I'm at my best when my equipment feels good. I think that the activation point on the Topres might be an advantage because the key is actuated sooner than if I had to press it all the way down.

It looks like elitekeyboards has a few Realforce 55gs left, so I'll be ordering that on Wednesday. My only concern left is that I can't remember which board it was that had the sharp spacebar?

Edit: The other thing that is crappy about my Model M/Northgate is they are so damn long. I am a low sensitivity user and I hit my mouse against the numpad constantly. A tenkeyless would be plenty short to ensure that never happens. Also the NKRO thing is a non-issue for me, I can't imagine pressing more than 5 keys at once in any game.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 15 February 2010, 15:40:03: Quote from: ripster;158428
Only thing I worry about is the pro level part. Although I use Cherry Reds in my N52 I can't ride the activation point as precisely as I can with a Cherry Black. I would think pros would buy one keyboard for gaming and another for everyday activities.

I'd also spray paint blood spatters on it too so since I'm no pro take my advice with a grain of salt.

This kid did WAY too much gaming
Show Image
(http://sciencefun.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/pro_vs_noob.jpg)

That is the funniest stuff I have ever seen.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: dion2k on Wed, 17 February 2010, 18:47:22: Order placed, got 2day shipping so that it gets here before the weekend. Haven't been this excited since I got my Sony GDM-FW900s hehe, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: mp29k on Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:41:19: I have missed the Lego posts Rip... glad to see you are back!
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 18 February 2010, 00:07:53: Quote from: mp29k;159013
I have missed the Lego posts Rip... glad to see you are back!

Bwah? Did ripster logout to pee or something?
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 February 2010, 07:34:34: Nah, that last post of his made him think about a seeing his wife for a few minutes.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 18 February 2010, 16:57:56: Quote from: ripster;159156
???

Show Image
(http://www.funnyden.com/funnypics/528/electronic24.gif)

That's what Microsoft calls "the ergonomic way".
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 19 February 2010, 00:56:23: Once we bought a coworker a hat just like his own, but smaller. Swapped them during a performance review where we all knew he was getting a promotion.

Topical:
At one time I'd say skip the blacks, but I'm dating one now and she's verry nice. Additionally, Cherry MX black keyboards are inexpensive enough you can buy one, dislike it, and not hang yourself. Topre, not so much.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 19 February 2010, 01:44:57: Anyone else notice that "seeking input" is a pun in a keyboard forum?
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: majestouch on Fri, 19 February 2010, 02:41:51: Quote from: ripster;158515
You know that Realforce 87U 55g might be just about perfect. I had forgotten about that.

I only got one key on mine (the ESC key) that is 55g but it feels like it would work. Stiffer and feels more linear than the 45g keys.

The all 55g 87U has a really delicious amount of tactility so it's quite fun to type on, albeit the momentum required to push through the tactile hump at this weighting makes it near impossible to avoid bottoming out; a disadvantage on any other board which is offset by the soft landing characteristic of Topre switches. Curiously, the full-keystroke commitment each keypress requires actually notably improves my accuracy, though I wouldn't recommend this weighting for people that currently experience pain while typing or have a history of RSI or similar - other than that 55g is just about perfect in my mind.

Unnecessary disclaimer: yes I sell this board so I might have an agenda;) but I'd venture that since this board is considerably beyond the median keyboard price, the only swaying that's gonna take place due to my comments is for someone already committed to buying an 87U anyway and who can't decide between the 55g and the standard variable weighting.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 February 2010, 07:24:53: I have heard something similar about Buckling Spring keyboards improving accuracy. I think it's that same "full-keystroke commitment" that helps. Some days, I'm just "off," and I usually need to slow down and sort of press firmly on each key to get things going again. That's probably where the heavier switches come into play.

That said, are there any plans for an all-45g Realforce? From what I understand, that's the "sweet-spot" for Topre swithces.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 19 February 2010, 08:00:48: Quote from: ricercar;159303
Once we bought a coworker a hat just like his own, but smaller. Swapped them during a performance review where we all knew he was getting a promotion.

Win. I must remember that one.

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;159308
Anyone else notice that "seeking input" is a pun in a keyboard forum?

Indeed. :lol:
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 19 February 2010, 08:04:49: Quote from: Phaedrus2129
"seeking input"

They really should learn to touch type.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: dion2k on Fri, 19 February 2010, 16:27:15: Quote from: majestouch;159318
The all 55g 87U has a really delicious amount of tactility so it's quite fun to type on, albeit the momentum required to push through the tactile hump at this weighting makes it near impossible to avoid bottoming out; a disadvantage on any other board which is offset by the soft landing characteristic of Topre switches. Curiously, the full-keystroke commitment each keypress requires actually notably improves my accuracy, though I wouldn't recommend this weighting for people that currently experience pain while typing or have a history of RSI or similar - other than that 55g is just about perfect in my mind.

This helps assure me that I made the right pick. The soft landing was a big factor for me because I knew I would bottom out when I played FPS games. I've often thought of making wood enclosures for my Northgate/Model M to give them a warmer resonance. I've really come to dislike the higher pitched noises associated with most keyboards.

Quote from: itlnstln;159329
I have heard something similar about Buckling Spring keyboards improving accuracy. I think it's that same "full-keystroke commitment" that helps. Some days, I'm just "off," and I usually need to slow down and sort of press firmly on each key to get things going again. That's probably where the heavier switches come into play.

This does seem to be the case. I noticed while doing tests on my Model M that my accuracy is very high, around 98% while maintaining 100+ wpm. I was able to type about 5-10wpm faster on my Northgate but I was also backspacing more to correct mistakes.

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;159308
Anyone else notice that "seeking input" is a pun in a keyboard forum?

Probably :) Originally I was feeling pressured into the MX Blacks by my friends and I wanted someone to tell me to get a Realforce.
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: dion2k on Mon, 22 February 2010, 15:17:40: Today I received my Realforce 87u 55g. I've only been typing on it for an hour or two but wow, what a pleasure to type on. The key action is so smooth and the 55g weighting feels perfect. I loaded up Quake and jumped around the maps and it feels very solid, much better than any keyboard I've tried. The key response is very quick, and the keycap texture is quite nice. It's so much fun to type on, I just want to continue typing and typing :) Maybe I will pick up programming! I'm going to allow a few more days to get fully adjusted, and then I may do a proper review for the reviews section. Just wanted to thank you guys for helping me make the right decision!
Title: Seeking Input: Topre vs MX Black
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 22 February 2010, 21:14:05: Yea I've always wondered why the Japanese Gamers prefer the 30g Topre boards. I'm with ripster the slightly heaver 55g should be great for gaming. But then again maybe that is why Realforce is now offering a uniform 55g 91U.