geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:53:54
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Please don't cry blasphemy and crucify me just yet.
I bought my first mechanical keyboard just after Christmas, from ebay: a 1988 IBM Model M 1391401, which I got for $6.50 plus shipping, totaling around $20 (it's a heavy sucker). After cleaning up a couple pencil marks and dirty keycaps, I think I can definitively say that this is the nicest keyboard I've ever owned, and I don't think I'll ever buy another rubber dome/membrane keyboard ever again, unless it brings about world peace, or at least brings about a pot roast, touches me on the knee, and tells me I've lost weight.
I love everything about this keyboard. The no-nonsense layout, no annoying media keys, the tactile feel, the possible use as a weapon in case of zombie apocalypse... It's just perfect in so many ways. But there is just one thing about it that drives me absolutely freaking mad:
CLACK CLACK CLICKITYTAPPITYCLICKCLICK TAP CLACK TICK CLACK TAPTAPTAP
If I'm listening to music and I get caught up in responding to a particularly dim comment where someone is claiming that, I dunno, a GTX295 can be run on a 300W power supply, I'll usually start typing so fast that the noise completely drowns out the music (though in rare cases it has instead accentuated the drum beat, making "Won't Get Fooled Again" by the Who about ten times better). It's just unbearable.
I spoke to my mother, and she commented that she once worked at a small company where the office computers were outfitted with Model Ms. There were about fifty people working there, and after several weeks of constant clacking, and fifty bottles of Aspirin, the ten people who refused to type on anything other than the Model M had a showdown with the twenty people who refused to come to work without ear plugs. The manager decided to set the three IT specialists to work silencing the keyboards as a compromise. The IT guys silenced about five keyboards, then refused to do any more unless they received a healthy bonus to compensate for them being driven slowly mad by modifying fifty keyboards, with a hundred switches each, one switch at a time. Their demand was met, the "CLACK CLACK" turned to "dat dat", and the world was a better place.
Unfortunately my mother didn't know exactly how they made the Model M quiet. Just that it took a full day per keyboard per person and that the three IT specialists were very short-fused during the process.
I've consulted with Manyak at OCN. The clicky noise of the buckling springs comes from the spring hitting the plastic switch wall when it buckles. So if some sort of cushioning material--say, felt--were placed where the spring hits the wall, then the noise should be significantly less. So adding bits of felt to the switches should help silence, or at least partially quiet, my Model M and spare me risking spending a hundred dollars on a keyboard with switches that I may or may not be able to stand.
But there are a few details that need to be worked out, and I figure this is the place to ask about them.
1.) Which side of the switch--front or back--does the spring hit against? Or should I just wrap felt around the whole inside?
2.) Can the felt just be inserted, or must it be glued into place?
3.) What thickness felt should be used? It needs to be thick enough to noticeably dampen the noise, but thin enough that it doesn't interfere much (if at all) with the tactile feel.
And I may think of more questions later. In the meantime, I'm going to be searching local schools and second-hand stores for another Model M so that I don't risk screwing up my only one. And maybe I'll find another mechanical keyboard, maybe a Cherry or AT101W.
So. Answers, advice, tips?
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1) The front (towards you).
2) Glued, or it'll probably get caught. Also make sure that you leave some space between the top of the felt and the top of the hole, so that the key has room to move downwards. Also if you glue it too much to the side it'll get in the way of the key for sure (just pull off a key to see what I'm talking about, just look at the stem).
3) Not sure. But I'd be worried about anything thicker than 1 or 2mm.
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There was once a legendary geekhacker who achieved such a feat. Unfortunatly he has fallen to the dark side, and now he prefers rubber domes.
Here is a link to such a mod:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4992
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Thanks guys. I don't think I want to do the nuts and bolts thing--that may be a little too complicated. But I like the idea of using grease. I'll have to compare the two methods to see which gives the best results. Once I glue in felt it might be hard to remove, so I'll test that one on a key I never use, probably Pause (seriously, what *is* that key used for? And don't say pausing things :p).
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Scroll lock was used to stop long text from scrolling on old terminals. Pause was used to pause a running program. Ctrl+Pause - which becomes Break - was used to exit a program (it still does actually, if you're working from a command line). And PrtScrn used to do just that. It sent whatever text was on your screen to the printer.
The Pause/Break key is still used a lot by programmers when debugging (yes it does exactly what you'd think it does). And Meta+Pause brings up your system properties box in windows. And Ctrl+Alt+Break minimizes/maximizes a remote desktop session.
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PrtScrn used to do just that. It sent whatever text was on your screen to the printer.
Some people don't know the Windows shortcuts:
- ALT PrintScrn = screen shot of current window to clipboard
- Ctrl PrintScrn = screen shot of ALL windows and desktop background to clipboard
Follow up with a paste to the program of choice.
I used Windows 2 through 2K without knowing that one. Learned it only in the Windows XP era.
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Some people don't know the Windows shortcuts:
- ALT PrintScrn = screen shot of current window to clipboard
- Ctrl PrintScrn = screen shot of ALL windows and desktop background to clipboard
[/LIST] Um...
Ctrl+Alt+PrntScrn = Screenshot of current window
Only PrntScrn = Screenshot of entire desktop.
Even better is the Snipping Tool in Windows 7. It's like Snag-It but free.
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I've consulted with Manyak at OCN. The clicky noise of the buckling springs comes from the spring hitting the plastic switch wall when it buckles. So if some sort of cushioning material--say, felt--were placed where the spring hits the wall, then the noise should be significantly less. So adding bits of felt to the switches should help silence, or at least partially quiet, my Model M and spare me risking spending a hundred dollars on a keyboard with switches that I may or may not be able to stand.
I'm not entirely convinced by this. In fact, I think that the reason why the buckling springs make a louder noise when released compared with when they are initially pressed is because the barrel stops the spring vibrating on the way down. From what I've seen, the spring makes the noise, and the construction of the keyboard causes it to reverberate and become quite loud (if you manage to make a spring buckle outside of the keyboard, it makes a similar noise, but is much much quieter).
Also, any sort of lining could prevent the spring from traveling fully and therefore failing to drive forward the hammer far enough.
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@ Phaedrus: Which noise exactly do you find annoying? The clack when a key is pressed, or the spring poing when it's released?
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The clack is most noticeable, since I hear it with every spring press. Though when I really get going the release noise can build up to a steady hum.
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Foam or rubber inserts in the springs will help with the poing (which most people find annoying), but not with the clack.
I'd be very careful about glueing felt or other stuff in the spring wells. There's a high risk the springs won't have enough room to buckle anymore, and it will be a pain to remove.
Grease will work, several members here have done that. But most likely it will ruin the board in the long term, as it will crawl down into the hammers and membrane sheets and deteriorate there.
I'd rather try and put a layer of felt under the steel backplate, and maybe stuff some more in the cavities, so that the case can't act as a resonance chamber anymore.
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[/LIST] Um...
Ctrl+Alt+PrntScrn = Screenshot of current window
Only PrntScrn = Screenshot of entire desktop.
Even better is the Snipping Tool in Windows 7. It's like Snag-It but free.
Um... Did you bother to test my keystrokes? :boxing:
I tested yours; mine and yours all appear to work as we state. :clap2:
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Um... Did you bother to test my keystrokes? :boxing:
Oops, I was pressing Win PrintScrn earlier. My bad.
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Still, the grease method is the "official" method - IBM keyboards exist which had it as a feature, and even Unicomp can still silence a model M with their own "secret grease recipe".
The foam inserts were actually patented by AT&T so I'd guess something of it must be true.
EDIT: We even had someone inserting thin rubber slices into the springs, these were supposedly easier to apply and remove than the foam inserts.
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So my only "good" option is to try to make it resonate less? That could help, I guess, but will it make that huge a difference? As in, cut the noise in half, say?
The problem is I like a crisp tactile feel. I thought for a while that MX Browns might be the switch for me, but now I'm thinking the bump might be too rounded for me, not to mention too light. I had hopes for MX Clears, but apparently they feel "sloppy". The MX Blues are supposedly pretty crisp; but they're also clicky and they don't reset at the same position as they activate, so that might be a pain sometimes while gaming. Black Alps sound promising, but there aren't any widely available "top notch" boards that use them; just the ABS M1 from what I can see, and it has controller and rollover issues.
Can't I have my cake and eat it too? :p
EDIT: Actually, my desk is multilayered, it has a bottom part that rolls out. Maybe I'll just put my Model M on there and use it for typing, and get something with MX Blacks or Browns for gaming to put on the top part of the desk.
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We even had someone inserting thin rubber slices into the springs, these were supposedly easier to apply and remove than the foam inserts.
That was me. Works well, but damps down only the poing, not the clack.
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So my only "good" option is to try to make it resonate less? That could help, I guess, but will it make that huge a difference? As in, cut the noise in half, say?
No idea. Let us know. ;P
As it should be easy to apply and remove if necessary, it's the first thing I'd try anway.
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Nah, we game because we need to stability test, we put them to use running Folding@Home. Q9550 @3.57GHz and 4870 1GB @800/925 myself. Yeah I know, snore fest. :p
I'm looking at the Filco Tenkeyless boards. It would be nice to have more desk space. But they're more expensive than the non-NKRO 104-key boards. Wish they made non-NKRO versions of the tenkeyless. Also, the MX Brown ones are out of stock, the pity.
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The MX Blues are supposedly pretty crisp; but they're also clicky and they don't reset at the same position as they activate, so that might be a pain sometimes while gaming.
Buckling springs do this as well...
It is only a problem in games which require you to do something stupid like repeatedly tapping a key (think the GTA:IV endgame).
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Gawd I hated that last GTA IV endgame. Finally picked it up and finished it a couple of weeks ago but must have taken me 20+ tries.
PS3 version. The PC version was so buggy I'm surprised anyone could complete it. The age of PC gaming is coming to a sad close...... Ending in a whimper of bad console ports.
I don't think so. Have you seen the release schedule for this year? Starcraft II (PC exclusive), Diablo III (PC exclusive), Half Life 2: Episode 3 (PC, ported to consoles), STALKER: Call of Pripyat (PC exclusive), Bad Company 2 (PC exclusive I think), Fallout: New Vegas (multi-platform, console versions admittedly more stable), Crysis 2 (PC exclusive), Command and Conquer 4 (PC exclusive), Assassin's Creed 2 (multi-platform)... We already HAVE Mass Effect 2 and Bioshock 2. There's a lot of really big names in this list, and there are a lot that are PC exclusive. It ain't dying just yet, and if it is it's going out with a bang.
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Terribly sorry to put this back on topic, but...
How thick is the thinnest possible application of Plasti Dip?
Seems to me it's theoretically possible to put a tiny tab on the contact area inside the 'barrel' the spring is in...you know, the spot where the spring hits when it buckles.
Assuming the Plasti Dip would stay put (not slide or fall off entirely, or get stuck to the spring) and isn't thick enough to prevent proper buckling, this MIGHT help too, plus filling in the case to prevent what remaining sound there would be from resonating.
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Is ripster posting again?
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I found post #14 especially insightful.
Haha - now I know you're blocking me. Can we go back to something more interesting now?
Well..."coating with rubber" sounds like putting rubber on the outside of the barrel, not inside like I said.
And no I'm not.
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Ya know, the finger and Library Girl next to each other in your sig is kinda sexist.
Bowing to peer pressure. *snif*
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Funny, intelligent, and musically talented. I'd change more than my sig for Nellie.
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Sorry for continuing the offtopicness, but speaking of musical talents about my age...
The tin can sound quality actually lends this a certain charm.
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I have this keyboard but I dont know how to connect it to my pc because the connector predates the modern USB and PS/2 connectors.
I know this may seem like a stupid question, but could someone please tell me what the name of this type of connection is called? I'm assuming that I'll be able to buy an adapter for it.
Thanks.
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Din
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Is it like a bigger PS/2 with five pins?
Then it's probably AT and an adapter can be had for under $5.
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Bad Company 2 (PC exclusive I think), Crysis 2 (PC exclusive)
Nope. Both are multiplats. But the rest of your point still stands.
A lot of sequels there. Innovation is all happening on other platforms (including the iPad).
*statistics showing that retail PC game sales are down*
With all the DRM crap and time wasted debugging console ports I'd go console.
First off, your sales figure talks about RETAIL sales-presumably not including digital distribution stores that get all the PC game sales nowadays. You know, Steam, Impulse, GamersGate, Direct2Drive, Good Old Games, and such. Hell, some recent retail releases still require a Steam account just for DRM reasons.
Second off, while the DRM trend does suck, it's not like past computer games didn't have it. Remember the code wheels, the manual word lookups, Lenslok viewing contraptions, and such? If anything, at least we don't have to install goddamn DRM drivers any more, a la classic StarForce. (The current version used in some recent releases is just online activation and pretty much in name only, thank goodness.)
Finally, consoles lack the input device options I've grown used to, let alone mods and whole genres of games. You just won't ever see something like Falcon 4.0, DCS: Black Shark, or Independence War 2 on a console (not unless they decide to pull another Steel Battalion on us, and I don't mean Heavy Armor for Kinect), and all those FPSs not only aim better with a mouse, but have plenty of mods to keep the gameplay fresh. The likes of Doom, Quake, Unreal, and Half-Life would most assuredly NOT be where they are if not for all the mod support, be it new weapons, mods, gametypes, or flat-out Total Conversions.
I don't hate console gaming or anything, for I even have a small collection of the things (mostly older ones, though) due to exclusives and wanting to capture an experience that emulation sometimes doesn't provide. But for my tastes, the PC generally works out better because I am willing to put up with the added complexity, to the point where even if a game works, I may spend a few hours just getting the controls mapped right.
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Steel Battalion was badass. My uncle had the full controller for it, and holy **** it was awesome to be a twelve year old pulling the levers and ****. That was epic.
Too bad you can't use those controllers for anything else. Also odd how the new version is going to be completely controllerless; vs. the epic ginormous controller of the original.
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Steel Battalion was badass. My uncle had the full controller for it, and holy **** it was awesome to be a twelve year old pulling the levers and ****. That was epic.
Too bad you can't use those controllers for anything else. Also odd how the new version is going to be completely controllerless; vs. the epic ginormous controller of the original.
I still have my blue-button set. I've even contemplated picking up a second green-button set since I have a second Xbox for some local one-on-one Line of Contact action (or at least have someone else at my house take part in a tunneled Xlink Kai match).
You CAN use them with other things...so long as they're based on a PC running Windows XP 32-bit and have an adapter to make it plug into a standard USB port rather than those proprietary Xbox USB ports that act as controller ports. (Hell, even the headset adapter and memory card sockets on the gamepads themselves are USB ports, just with another non-standard shape.) Unfortunately, while the VTCHID drivers are open-source, nobody's updated them for Vista/Win7, much less 64-bit, and I don't know a damn thing about coding drivers, otherwise I probably would've fixed it already.
It is odd that Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor is going the exact opposite route with the help of Kinect, but it already looks like a completely different game that just happens to have the same words in the title. I mean, just look at the designs of those so-called Vertical Tanks in that trailer-they definitely look more like squat tanks with legs now than those badass mecha designs in the original, and it's also a future where no more microprocessors are being made and they aren't computerized-pretty much the opposite of the original VTs, where they are pretty blatantly computerized from the startup sequence onward, bootup screens and all. And while the folks at From Software probably know what they're doing (Armored Core, Chromehounds, METAL WOLF CHAOS, never mind that they're VERY different games from the existing Steel Battalion), the folks at Platinum Games would've been closer to the original dev team (they have Atsushi Inaba, for a start), and maybe they would've made something more fitting of the title.
I'll just have to judge it on its own merits when I can get some hands-on experience.
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There was once a legendary geekhacker who achieved such a feat. Unfortunatly he has fallen to the dark side, and now he prefers rubber domes.
Here is a link to such a mod:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4992
I thought he was using a Das Model S.
OP: I have not read all the four pages, but be careful. The keyboard may not feel right after you have slienced it. It can be very painful to get it back to where it once was.
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I thought he was using a Das Model S.
OP: I have not read all the four pages, but be careful. The keyboard may not feel right after you have slienced it. It can be very painful to get it back to where it once was.
well yea i have a das S now, but i also have an MS rubber dome ;)
yea the grease mod isnt reversible really unless you can wash the springs with detergent or something whcih isnt really feasible. But that said you can get the clicks mostly back by wiping the springs with a cotton swab, tho it wont be exactly the way it was pre-grease. But you should be able to 'modulate' the amount of sound and feel by adding/removing grease with a toothpick. It worked out well for me tho I know patrick didnt like it. And its basically the same grease idea that IBM used on their official version of the 'quiet' buckling springs.
Also for the record i didnt have any issues with the grease running down onto the keyboard, even over a year later. I opened up that board pretty regularly and i would have noticed. Silicon grease is about the consistency of vaseline, I dont think its going anywhere unless you put a hair dryer on it for 5 minutes. And anyway as someone said upstream in this thread, it was ibm's official solution as well. I can imagine tho that if one didnt use the right grease then yea it might run. Silicon grease worked for me tho.
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yea the grease mod isnt reversible really unless you can wash the springs with detergent or something whcih isnt really feasible. But that said you can get the clicks mostly back by wiping the springs with a cotton swab, tho it wont be exactly the way it was pre-grease (there will be some difference unless you can wash the springs with detergent or something, which isnt really feasible). But you should be able to 'modulate' the amount of sound and feel by adding/removing grease with a toothpick. It worked out well for me tho I know patrick didnt like it. And its basically the same grease idea that IBM used on their official version of the 'quiet' buckling springs.
I think I put too much grease. Some people may like the overall result. I think I preferred the crisp clic clac. This is why I love my Model M sound so much. It's pingier than the Customizer.