thank you for this excellent documentation!
so once you have those other steps complete, there is another factor also...
different dome type replacements, and their height variances.
ie: modified sony domes, or the hansung domes.
Awesome work... thanks!
I will add, I am in the middle of using a silenced RF 104U to swap the purple sliders into my RF 87U to silence it. I noticed when doing my research that EK says on their website that the silenced 104U has a travel distance of 3.8mm instead of 4mm that the RF 87U has. I am guessing that the depression that you see on the purple sliders (plus maybe a little height reduction that the ring creates), result in 0.2mm of lost travel.
Just a thought.
And here is where I saw it:
RF 104U description: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=xf01ts (https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=xf01ts)
RF 87U description: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se08t0 (https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se08t0)
sth, thank you for your insightful explanation :thumb:
I own a Novatouch modded with ironed landing pads from EK.
When it comes to the sound, it is very nice. The mod caused the "plasticky" sound of the stems go away. Someone compared the sound to rain drops and I like this comparison - especially with the towel underneath it sound like gentle drops of rain. I can't wait for my R2 Norbauer case which hopefully will make the sound even nicer :)
However, the lost of key travel is significant - not that I feel the distance is shorter, but initial key resistance is less prominent. I think you can see it if you take a Topre force curve and remove initial 0.5mm or so. When I first typed on my keyboard after I reassembled it after adding landing pads I was hugely disappointed by this issue. However, I got used to this very quickly. If it wasn't for an hour or so of my time I could probably remove the landing pads again to be able to compare the feel again.
This key travel change is not exactly the same on all keys - if I try hard, I can feel the difference (only when looking for it, not when typing). I can attribute to the landing pads not being ironed evenly - if I knew it would be important I'd pay more attention to that (and also flatten them more).
Without the proper spacing of the newer sliders, there are significant drawbacks to off brand orings.
Firstly, There is such thing as --Compression Set-- , essentially the inability to return to original expansion/shape, as a percentage
In this case it influences not only the RINGs, but also the DOMEs.
For the rings, if you put in diy rings or non-duration tested rings like hypersphere, then the silencing will only become less and less effective over time.
The reason they extended the slider for the S-edition is to prevent Precompression of the ring AND the dome.
Precompression causes compression set in the rings, I don't know what the Official silencing rings are made of, but lets assume it's silicone rubber.
Even the best silicone rubber has 10 to 20% compression set if constantly compressed
So , if the spacing is incorrect, the ring receives precompression.. and the DOMEs also receive precompression..
10-20% is extremely significant because it will greatly influence the way the switch feels.
Assuming the producer calibrated the collapse / resistance of TOPRE, and that's what people LIKE-about-it.. then any diy mod without compensating for distance is at odds with the sought after thock-feel..
Yea this is precisely the problem
The Topre-Experience is tuned for a very specific offset distance.. There's a tolerance, but it's almost always within 0.05mms by design when it comes to injection molding.. Adding aftermarket overpriced rings does offer some dampening, but it's wholly inadequate..
Even if you go the compensation route by adding spacers to the board screw shafts, you can't always find the right spacer to bring back the designed offset..
And the spacer route may greatly reduce the rigidity of the frame because now they're not touching as closely.
It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
Show Image(https://media.giphy.com/media/qlHzt4fVt59HG/giphy.gif)
Show Image(https://media.giphy.com/media/qlHzt4fVt59HG/giphy.gif)Show Image(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6UBlHJQT19wSgJQk/200w_s.gif)
It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
The only way I know is to harvest and use silenced stems from a factory silenced KB. Like stems from an HHKB Type-S or purple silenced sliders from a silent Realforce.It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
I've heard that only works on the HHKB. Any other keyboards that works for?It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
There is the spacer method.
Take some printer paper, each sheet is 0.1mm
Whatever the thickness your ring is, offset that by the amount of sheets of paper..
Cut a little square with all the sheets layed together, use a power drill to drill a hole in the center of the square. make enough squares for the amount of screws the board is held together by then put that where the keyboard screws come together..
This will offset the height of the chassis..
I've heard that only works on the HHKB. Any other keyboards that works for?It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
There is the spacer method.
Take some printer paper, each sheet is 0.1mm
Whatever the thickness your ring is, offset that by the amount of sheets of paper..
Cut a little square with all the sheets layed together, use a power drill to drill a hole in the center of the square. make enough squares for the amount of screws the board is held together by then put that where the keyboard screws come together..
This will offset the height of the chassis..
Insulating washers work better for spacing mod on hhkb than the paper fix described above. They're available in the perfect size already for use with hhkb and hyperspheres. I used tiny pieces of double sided tape to apply them to the screw standoffs (others have used light glue). Assembling the case after installation was a fraction more difficult due to the added gap, but worked out fine. Overall very pleased with the mod and return of full tactility on my hhkb.
Dental Bands on the FC660C work like a charm. An cheap but amazing modification. I don't think this works on realforce boards though.
The only way I know is to harvest and use silenced stems from a factory silenced KB. Like stems from an HHKB Type-S or purple silenced sliders from a silent Realforce.It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
Then you are guaranteed not to lose any key travel.
KBDfans has new rings.
There is the spacer method.Is there a picture somewhere for this? I don't get it.
Take some printer paper, each sheet is 0.1mm
Whatever the thickness your ring is, offset that by the amount of sheets of paper..
Cut a little square with all the sheets layed together, use a power drill to drill a hole in the center of the square. make enough squares for the amount of screws the board is held together by then put that where the keyboard screws come together..
This will offset the height of the chassis..
There is the spacer method.Is there a picture somewhere for this? I don't get it.
Take some printer paper, each sheet is 0.1mm
Whatever the thickness your ring is, offset that by the amount of sheets of paper..
Cut a little square with all the sheets layed together, use a power drill to drill a hole in the center of the square. make enough squares for the amount of screws the board is held together by then put that where the keyboard screws come together..
This will offset the height of the chassis..
I used fiber washers, like this guide shows. http://imgur.com/a/DLuOw
Works well, but is quite the PITA to perform.
I used fiber washers, like this guide shows. http://imgur.com/a/DLuOw
Works well, but is quite the PITA to perform.
Oh, awesome. Thank you tameone.
Yes tp4, but I am too lazy :) They are only $3 on ebay; seems like the cleaner solution to me and you get 50 pieces.
The only way I know is to harvest and use silenced stems from a factory silenced KB. Like stems from an HHKB Type-S or purple silenced sliders from a silent Realforce.It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
Then you are guaranteed not to lose any key travel.
The only way I know is to harvest and use silenced stems from a factory silenced KB. Like stems from an HHKB Type-S or purple silenced sliders from a silent Realforce.It seems you've taken to --intellectually-- overcoming the issue by accepting the result of your mod as is.. But what was the point of all the money and effort spent, if you didn't get what you wanted.. and instead have to Convince yourself that -this is ok--.. hahaha
I accepted the mod result because it brings very important advantage - it makes the keyboard very quiet, thus allowing me to type while my wife sleeps in the same room ;)
By no means I consider the mod perfect and I will be more than happy if someone finds a way to keep the keyboard silenced while retaining original key travel distance.
Then you are guaranteed not to lose any key travel.
Just wanted to bump this and seek some clarification on the above...
I'll be getting HHKB Pro 2 soon, and would like to silence it, but having read the thread above, want to avoid the potential drawbacks such as pre-compression (will be installing BKE Redux so doubly important!)
I would also quite like the purple Realforce sliders for aesthetics.. So is the method of swapping in some silenced RF sliders still the best method of silencing without sacrificing any key travel / causing pre-compression?
Are there any others things to consider when swapping in those kinda sliders??
Yep the KBDfans could be an easier / cheaper option for sure. I've had very good experience with their other products so I'd be hopeful..
I need to weigh up the costs really, if I'm buying from Japan then the Type-S is going to cost around £50 more. I wonder if it'd cost me more than that to buy, harvest and sell a silenced RF.
If the cost difference is minor then I'd consider it worthwhile as it's also offset by having those nice purple sliders..
Things to consider for sure..
2) Stock sliders with bke domes and hyperspheres. I had the light domes, and even they are tactile enough that you don't miss anything when using hyperspheres.. still plenty of tactility left. The snappy nature of the domes reduced the silencing capability of the hyperspheres tho, but it was still livable when lubed also. I did end up taking the domes out tho because of a major flaw in the domes shape. Bke domes crest at a lower point. Stock domes are more round. Stock domes compress springs by pressings on the very top of the spring with the underside of the apex of the dome. Bke domes due to the shape press on the side of the springs about 25% of the way down with the side of the dome. This leads to spring binding and grinding and an impossible to remove noise that drove me crazy. What's the point of trying to silence a board if every switch press grinds worse than the last?
Here's my newest take after trying hyperspheres, keyclack rings, purple sliders, bke domes, tactility restoration mod, etc.
1) stock sliders and domes with hyperspheres definitely reduces tactility, but produces good silencing. The balance wasn't good for me, so I tried the tactility restoration mod with fiber washers. However, that didn't last long either. The case doesn't go together tightly any more, some caps bottomed out slightly, and overall it just made the board feel more cheaply built. I ditched it.
2) Stock sliders with bke domes and hyperspheres. I had the light domes, and even they are tactile enough that you don't miss anything when using hyperspheres.. still plenty of tactility left. The snappy nature of the domes reduced the silencing capability of the hyperspheres tho, but it was still livable when lubed also. I did end up taking the domes out tho because of a major flaw in the domes shape. Bke domes crest at a lower point. Stock domes are more round. Stock domes compress springs by pressings on the very top of the spring with the underside of the apex of the dome. Bke domes due to the shape press on the side of the springs about 25% of the way down with the side of the dome. This leads to spring binding and grinding and an impossible to remove noise that drove me crazy. What's the point of trying to silence a board if every switch press grinds worse than the last?
3) stock domes and sliders with keyclack silencing rings. These are very thin. So thin that you won't notice a loss in tactility. However, due to the thickness they don't silence as well as hyperspheres or rf purple slider rings (which are virtually identical thickness wise to HS rings). I'd say they're on order of 50% as effective. So if you care more about tactility and want a little silencing, go for these. They're slightly better than kbd fans rings because there's more surface area.
4) purple sliders. Ahhhhh. Finally. No compromises. All the tactility with the best silencing rings available. Smooth, super quiet. Nothing can match them. Quest is over. Use em with 45, 50(Leopold) or 55g domes for the best experience you can get.
Cya.
I believe they more recent models of the Type-S have the dimensions as silenced RFs. They are just not purple.
2) Stock sliders with bke domes and hyperspheres. I had the light domes, and even they are tactile enough that you don't miss anything when using hyperspheres.. still plenty of tactility left. The snappy nature of the domes reduced the silencing capability of the hyperspheres tho, but it was still livable when lubed also. I did end up taking the domes out tho because of a major flaw in the domes shape. Bke domes crest at a lower point. Stock domes are more round. Stock domes compress springs by pressings on the very top of the spring with the underside of the apex of the dome. Bke domes due to the shape press on the side of the springs about 25% of the way down with the side of the dome. This leads to spring binding and grinding and an impossible to remove noise that drove me crazy. What's the point of trying to silence a board if every switch press grinds worse than the last?
I think you might want to try re-seating the springs in the domes. I had this happen in a few of my switches when I installed the BKE domes, and it's kind of a pain in the ass to get them all in perfectly, but I now have a board with no spring grinding.
I currently have type-s sliders swapped into my fc660c with BKE domes. I really like it, but I do wish it were quieter. When keyclack's R2 silencing rings launch, I'm planning to try experimenting with those on top of the type-s sliders, to see if I can find a balance between tactility and noise that I'm happy with.
2) Stock sliders with bke domes and hyperspheres. I had the light domes, and even they are tactile enough that you don't miss anything when using hyperspheres.. still plenty of tactility left. The snappy nature of the domes reduced the silencing capability of the hyperspheres tho, but it was still livable when lubed also. I did end up taking the domes out tho because of a major flaw in the domes shape. Bke domes crest at a lower point. Stock domes are more round. Stock domes compress springs by pressings on the very top of the spring with the underside of the apex of the dome. Bke domes due to the shape press on the side of the springs about 25% of the way down with the side of the dome. This leads to spring binding and grinding and an impossible to remove noise that drove me crazy. What's the point of trying to silence a board if every switch press grinds worse than the last?
So, (after reading the detailed description of the 1st post) - I don't see anywhere the *other* solution left (apart from shortening the slider legs, which is the other half of the mod - keeping the travel distance): would it be possible to make the dome-touching base of each slider 1mm thinner? I.e. dig into it with some large shallow bit, or polish it, or even file it? Or with some heat-based method? The slider would then touch the dome from a higher position - like the type-s does, even with the ring on, so that the tactility would be preserved.
oh i like that - nice thinkingSo, (after reading the detailed description of the 1st post) - I don't see anywhere the *other* solution left (apart from shortening the slider legs, which is the other half of the mod - keeping the travel distance): would it be possible to make the dome-touching base of each slider 1mm thinner? I.e. dig into it with some large shallow bit, or polish it, or even file it? Or with some heat-based method? The slider would then touch the dome from a higher position - like the type-s does, even with the ring on, so that the tactility would be preserved.
you can do like i did and separate the pcb from the plate by adding a bunch of these mobo washers on each screw hole:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519M-GFa9UL._SX342_.jpg
So, (after reading the detailed description of the 1st post) - I don't see anywhere the *other* solution left (apart from shortening the slider legs, which is the other half of the mod - keeping the travel distance): would it be possible to make the dome-touching base of each slider 1mm thinner? I.e. dig into it with some large shallow bit, or polish it, or even file it? Or with some heat-based method? The slider would then touch the dome from a higher position - like the type-s does, even with the ring on, so that the tactility would be preserved.
you can do like i did and separate the pcb from the plate by adding a bunch of these mobo washers on each screw hole:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519M-GFa9UL._SX342_.jpg
Nice information in this thread - thanks.
Any way to know which slider version I have in my Type-S? Is it only possible to know by removing one of the sliders and measuring?
The Type-S slider has already been modified to accommodate the width of the silencing ring.
In theory the best option if you don't need MX compatibility.
The Type-S slider has already been modified to accommodate the width of the silencing ring.
In theory the best option if you don't need MX compatibility.
Sorry, I can see how my point didn't come through in my previous comment.
I'll try to clarify - I hope it will make more sense. PFUs web site states different key travels for the HHKB Pro 2 (4 mm) and Type-S (3.8 mm). However, it was also mentioned in this thread that newer(?) Type-S keyboards have sliders similar to the silent Realforce keyboards, which compensates for the silencing material. So key the key travel of those Type-S keyboards should be 4 mm I suppose? If that's correct, they my questions is; how do I know if my HHKB Type-S has "regular" Type-S sliders (3.8 mm travel), or Realforce sliders (4 mm travel)?
I believe they more recent models of the Type-S have the dimensions as silenced RFs. They are just not purple.
That seems to be the general consensus that I've seen too.
I would like to try an RF slider next to a Type-S slider in an HHKB, just to check for any perceivable difference in smoothness.
If there's nothing in it then the only selling point for RF is to have purple sliders..
I ordered a set of fiber washers, but after reading abou the paper spacer trick here, I decided to try that.
What I did was use layered stickies (the part with glue), drilled holes, and cut small pieces. It looked like this:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q0qzTW7.jpg)
When installed, it looked like this:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/enFm9oZ.jpg)
Initial thoughts: the dampening effect has definately lessened. However, I also feel that the tactility is restored. I think I'll give it a few days, and then I might try removing it all, including the dampening rings. Maybe the undampened HHKB is not as bad as I remember...
Anyway, I'd also be interested in looking for a Realforce with silent sliders. Could someone mention the various models where silent versions were available, and which of those are easiest to find second hand? 87U, 104U, any other?
EDIT: I like the restored tactility, but I'm not a fan of the reduced dampening effect, and I also don't like the added height of the keys. It's not a lot, but I think it's noticeable.
That doesn't sound very nice. I guess it could be the chemicals in the lube reacting with the KBDfans rings.
Yes, but we’re also talkie about tactility, right?
That won’t be improved using lube.
Anyway, I'd also be interested in looking for a Realforce with silent sliders. Could someone mention the various models where silent versions were available, and which of those are easiest to find second hand? 87U, 104U, any other?
Thanks, rxc92. I had seen those, but I somehow hoped there would be more models to choose from. I also saw the 108, but I wouldn't be able to use that layout. I'm mostly after the sliders, but if I only have to sacrifice a few extra sliders for a layout that I can use (the 104), then it's fine.
sth, did I step on your toes somehow? If I did, I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about Topre sliders and silencing. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be nice to know if it's possible to use one of the aftermarket silencing solutions and retain the tactility of the switches.
Yesterday I took apart my HHKB Pro (silenced using Hypersphere's silencing rings) and my HHKB Type-S. I took out a slider from each keyboard, took a few photos and took some measurements with a digital vernier caliper (brand unknown, probably not the most accurate). I also took some measurements with a regular (analog) vernier caliper. I took photos of the readings on both of them. A couple of photos (notice that the Type-S slider has more "rounded" edges when seen from above:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/JEfiBrv.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/UZj7WrE.jpg)
Here are the measurements of the sliders:
- Pro 2 slider dimensions: 11.40 mm (total height), 8.90 mm (height of the cylindrical part)
- Type-S slider dimensions: 11.59 mm (total height), 9.20 mm (height of the cylindrical part), 0.32 mm (depth of the notch under the slider)
I also measured the thickness of the silencing rings, but those numbers should naturally be taken with a grain of salt (I tried not to compress the rings when measuring their thickness):
- Hypersphere silencing ring height: 0.40 mm
- Type-S silencing ring height: 0.41 mm
Conclusions: The slider from my Type-S keyboard is ~0.2 mm longer than the one from my Pro 2. The difference in the height of the cylindrical parts of the sliders is ~0.3 mm, which is also the depth of the notch under the cylinder of the Type-S slider. My guess is that this is needed to avoid the keycaps hitting the slider housing when fully pressed. Another thing I noticed; the silencing rings have similar thickness, however, the rings installed in the Type-S are much softer, and I guess that's what causes the sound to be more thocky on the Type-S (I did not apply lube in any of the keyboards).
I'm still not sure whether I have sliders with 4 or 3.8 mm travel in my Type-S (which measurement determines the travel?). It would be really cool if other people with newer and/or older Type-S keyboards could do the same measurements.
If I at some point manage to get hold of a Realforce with purple sliders, I will also make sure to take out one of the sliders and do the same measurements.
Since the difference in height between the sliders is ~0.2 mm, I am guessing that the silencing rings in the Type-S are around 0.2 mm thick when compressed. I can only guess wrt. the same measurement for Hypersphere's silencing rings, but it didn't feel at all as soft as the ring from the Type-S, so I'm guess it will be a bit more. The issue with using the paper spacers is that if you add too many, the keys will hit the slider housing. The slider has to be longer to compensate for the silencing ring to avoid this. I ended up leaving two layers of paper, and I'm happy with that so far.
sth, did I step on your toes somehow? If I did, I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about Topre sliders and silencing. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be nice to know if it's possible to use one of the aftermarket silencing solutions and retain the tactility of the switches.
FWIW I've had pretty decent results with the V1 Keyclack silencing pads after applying lube to the sliders to help hold them in place.
I made sure to not to use any duds and that they're properly aligned on the slider.
The lube made more of a change to tactility than the silencing pads IMO.
awesome research! thanks for the measurements. I'll try to include them in the OP if that's cool with you. and yes you're right - the difference in thickness is made up by the silencing ring to ensure the keycaps sit at the same level and don't lose tactility.
take a breath, hot dog.
the gist of it is, if you're looking for silencing, a little lube is gonna be the best bang for your buck. it makes the sliders feel better, does an OK job of quieting things down, and does not affect tactility. the other options are putting silencing rings on non-silenced sliders, which other than kbdfans rings, usually affect tactility to a negative degree, buying a Type-S -- OR, buying a perfectly good realforce and gutting it for sliders, and destroying its resale value in the process.