geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:30:32

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:30:32

Hi everyone,

I have a slightly annoying problem:

I am going to Tokyo in about 3 weeks on an exchange trip with my school. So I want to buy a keyboard there (well why not). I quite like the JIS layout, and want  a JIS keyboard (no real reason why) except for two things:

Lack of backslash- I use frequently
Backspace to small- I always hit the left side of my backspace

Any keyboards to fufill my needs?

Any mods possible to make the Backspace bigger? - I dont need the ￥

Please dont suggest: "Just stick to ANSI/ISO"- I simply do not want to

Thanks everyone in advance

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:35:55

(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=118)

What is that peculiar, backslash-shaped character on the key beside the forward slash and quesiton mark key?

Think about it - how do you suppose they were able to use MS-DOS if the keyboard couldn't let you type C:\?

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:41:08

Quote from: ch_123;160210

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=118)

What is that peculiar, backslash-shaped character on the key beside the forward slash and quesiton mark key?

Think about it - how do you suppose they were able to use MS-DOS if the keyboard couldn't let you type C:\?

Thats one covered, I believe I was misinformed

Any suggestions for the Backspace?

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:43:52

That's the Japanese standard. The mod-ability depends on the keyboard mechanism.

Have you ever used a keyboard with a single key width backspace? Believe me, - it's nowhere near as bad as you'd think.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: mp29k on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:47:07

Quote from: ch_123;160213

That's the Japanese standard. The mod-ability depends on the keyboard mechanism.

Have you ever used a keyboard with a single key width backspace? Believe me, - it's nowhere near as bad as you'd think.

I couldn't disagree more... single key backspace is a deal breaker for me.  I don't like the upside down L enter either, but that is less offensive to me than the single key backspace.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:47:22

Quote from: nads93uk;160211

Any suggestions for the Backspace?

Check the top keyboard's backspace. It is still too far right though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_keyboards.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_keyboards.jpg)

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:48:15

Quote from: ripster;160214

Plus the label is good for Lolz.

Show Image

(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)

LOL BS

the reason I was getting a JIS was for the Lulz (irritation of others) but I thought you guys would think I'm immature. ^_^

Any real solutions for a nice long Backspace?

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:49:34

(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)[/QUOTE]


Wait a second, WHERES MY BELOVED £ SIGN!!!!!!

I've seen it on almost all the other Japanese Keyboards

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Tue, 23 February 2010, 15:54:22

Quote from: ch_123;160213

That's the Japanese standard. The mod-ability depends on the keyboard mechanism.

Have you ever used a keyboard with a single key width backspace? Believe me, - it's nowhere near as bad as you'd think.

As a cheapo Asian, most of my computer equipment has come from Bangladesh, where the Backspace is always single key, and I HATE it.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: talis on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:04:35

You can always remap the pipe key as a second backspace, that's what I've done in the past, then map the pipe as a ctrl or alt function of the same key (should be able to do it with autohotkey).  That would give you two backspace keys next to each other,  rather then a single key however.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:15:23

Having Backspace change is pretty jarring.  I am having a little trouble with my HHKB and the backspace right above Enter.  Page Nav is killing me, but I am getting used to it.  I never realized how much I used the Page Nav cluster until I was coding earlier today.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:18:28

The \ and yen are the same thing in a Japanese OS, you can just map the yen key to be a backspace as well if you need it to.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:26:15

The arrow keys are the one thing that I have adjusted to pretty quickly; it's not quite the same as discrete keys, but it's not bad.  Having to press a Fn key for some things gets a little annoying at times, but I'm adapting.  I have the black on grey model.  I am thinking I should have got the white one first, so I could see the legends until I got used to it.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:29:26

Quote from: nads93uk;160218

Wait a second, WHERES MY BELOVED £ SIGN!!!!!!

I've seen it on almost all the other Japanese Keyboards

I get the impression that we're thinking about different Japans here :p

The IBM keyboard I showed a pic of on the last page has the standard Japanese layout (or more specifically, it invented it). I've never seen a £ sign on anything other than a UK keyboard. The US International has it, but there are very few keyboards that have the US-Int layout printed on the keys.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:37:45

Why is that iPad running Solaris? Is there some drastic change in Apple policy that I havent heard of?

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 February 2010, 16:38:59

There seems to be a lot of things wrong with that screenshot.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 23 February 2010, 17:37:01

Quote from: webwit;160245

I think the point is to bore the hell out of us and ouf of the argument

Is ouf a Dutch word? Did you call ripster an oaf?

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 23 February 2010, 17:43:48

Sorry, my copy editing muscles know no rest. Covering up my own weaknesses. Thieves lock their doors. Typo-ists correct others incessantly.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 23:10:37

Quote from: nads93uk;160209

I am going to Tokyo in about 3 weeks on an exchange trip with my school. So I want to buy a keyboard there (well why not). I quite like the JIS layout, and want  a JIS keyboard (no real reason why) except for two things:

Lack of backslash- I use frequently
Backspace to small- I always hit the left side of my backspace

Any keyboards to fufill my needs?

Any mods possible to make the Backspace bigger? - I dont need the ￥

Please dont suggest: "Just stick to ANSI/ISO"- I simply do not want to

Thanks everyone in advance

First off quit listening to the complainers that have not used one, the Japanese JIS layout is not all that bad. I'm typing on my NEO CS (see my sig and click the NEO CS to see a picture of it) right now and I have a few more Japanese boards as well (MD01B0, HE0100, Nissho KB106DE, OKI, Sun rack keyboard see sig for them as well) and just bought 2 more (Sun version of the HE0100 and NIB Topre OEM Just Uniform 45g 91U).

The big question is how are you going to use it? Are you going to tell your OS that you have a Japanese board or not? If you tell the OS you have a Japanese board then the keys will be laid out like they are shown on the keys but on the other hand if you do not and just plug it in and use it as a US board then you will have a few dead keys plus the keys will not be what is printed on the key. I personally use mine as US keyboards which gives me a few extra keys including the ￥ key that I map to back space, even though I could eliminate that now that I've gotten used to the small back space key and use it for something else. Any ways let me know how you are going to use it and I can at lest tell you where some of the other keys will end up like \.

Also what version of JIS are you going to get? Their are two types the ones like my boards and the IBM shown earlier in the thread and those like this one:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8080&stc=1&d=1266985475)

Do you see the difference? The difference is in the bottom row of the keyboard. In one version you have a short space bar with bigger language (Muhenkan, Henkan, Kana) keys this is what I have and I sometimes hear this layout called a thumb board because it is easy to hit the language keys with your thumb. The other version as shown on the Filco above uses a larger space bar but with smaller Language keys. I personally prefer the layout with the larger language keys mostly because I think they are easer to use for modifier keys (meta, Ctrl, Alt ect..) and no the small space bar is not a problem even though some would say that it is. From day one of getting a Japanese keyboard I've never had a problem with the space bar other keys yes but not the small space bar.

Another question have you decided on a particular board you want or just a JIS layout? Just like the US Japan has a bunch of cheap junk keyboards if you are looking for a good high quality Mechanical (cherry or Alps) or Topre board then learn how to recognise one before you go. Personally I would carry a key puller with me as well so I could yank a key off and see exactly what I'm getting before buying anything. Also you can do some research online before going, like you are doing now but hit some Japanese retailers and look around.  For a start try here ShopU (http://www.vshopu.com/) They have a good selection of keyboards look for キーボード on the left (you have to scroll down a bit) then start clicking the links under that and you will see all the keyboards they have. I would stay away from the wireless boards though because I'm not sure about importing them.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 23 February 2010, 23:16:12

While checking ShopU for the above post I noticed that they have a  Cherry board with Red switches (http://www.vshopu.com/item/208Z-2401/index.html) and in White (http://www.vshopu.com/item/208Z-2402/index.html) not a bad price either at 11,980 Yen for either one of them but still slightly more expensive than a Filco.

Title: Re: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 23 February 2010, 23:52:22

Where are you going in Japan tou look for keyboards?

If you're not going through Akihabara, then look for a Yodabashi-Camera. They usually have a very nice selection of boards. Sofmap stores usually don't disappoint as well.

And if you're looking for an MX Red board ¥11000 is kinda expensive. Try for at least ¥8800 (¥4000 ~ ¥7000 is a good deal).

If you're going through Akihabara, I can recommend some places to go for keyboards.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Wed, 24 February 2010, 02:10:50

Quote from: ch_123;160246

I get the impression that we're thinking about different Japans here :p

The IBM keyboard I showed a pic of on the last page has the standard Japanese layout (or more specifically, it invented it). I've never seen a £ sign on anything other than a UK keyboard. The US International has it, but there are very few keyboards that have the US-Int layout printed on the keys.

(http://static.benippon.net/magento/media/catalog/product/E/L/ELEC-BKBP-J109LG.jpg)

and

(http://store.aramedia.com/shopimages/products/normal/kbjapanese.jpg)

and

(http://www3.airnet.ne.jp/saka/keyboard/image/n109_1.jpg)

and lots of others too, I think you should look to the right of teh Zero on the Number Row.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Wed, 24 February 2010, 02:23:41

Quote from: HaaTa;160323

Where are you going in Japan tou look for keyboards?

If you're not going through Akihabara, then look for a Yodabashi-Camera. They usually have a very nice selection of boards. Sofmap stores usually don't disappoint as well.

And if you're looking for an MX Red board ¥11000 is kinda expensive. Try for at least ¥8800 (¥4000 ~ ¥7000 is a good deal).

If you're going through Akihabara, I can recommend some places to go for keyboards.

Yes, my exchange student mentioned that we were going Akihabara, so I would greatly appreciate some recommendations. Thank You

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 24 February 2010, 06:54:22

That makes your search a whole lot easier.

First you have to go to this store:

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6WOoTO_7VuQ/SyMw7H9u9wI/AAAAAAAAANk/qlxjUWulSNM/s800/%2Fsdcard%2Fdcim%2Fcamera%2F2009-12-12%2014.35.57.jpg)

It'll have pretty much anything your looking for there:

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6WOoTO_7VuQ/SyMwKApHrcI/AAAAAAAAAM4/cxYBEzEBBbg/s800/%2Fsdcard%2Fdcim%2Fcamera%2F2009-12-12%2014.24.54.jpg)

To find it, hmm, look for the big red Club Sega when you come out of the station. Its in the area behind it. Also notice the 2 in the sign, there are 2 other store locations but sell other computer stuff. If you find one of them, the other ones are relatively close (same street I think).

Though if you are looking for deals then there are other stores (though the one above probably has the best prices on Realforce boards).


The best price (since I last checked a couple weeks ago) for a black MX Red board is at SofMap (right next door).

Best price for a white MX Red board is at T-Zone (DIY Shop), which is in approximately the same area (that's where I got my ¥3980 deal).


There are ANSI keyboards available for pretty much all of the worth while keyboards (uTron being an exception, but hey, its a uTron). So make sure what version you are picking up (easy way to tell is by the number of keys the board has).

You'll probably want to check out Yodabashi-Camera just cause its enormous, but it also has a decent keyboard selection (no deals really, though). Also has a good mouse section.


Also, lots of the shops that cater to PC Gaming also have mechanical keyboards, but their prices and selection aren't as good (though you can get lucky).

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: nads93uk on Wed, 24 February 2010, 07:46:52

stupid question i know but, does anyone in that store speak English (Engrish okay as well)

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 24 February 2010, 13:05:49

Quote from: rdjack21;160319

The other version as shown on the Filco above uses a larger space bar but with smaller Language keys.

That kind of keyboard is just what I've been looking for. With such a keyboard, if one remaps the keys aggressively, you can just put the left hand on KL;' instead of JKL; and get backspace, shift, and Enter just like on a traditional Selectric layout - you know, something like this:

Code: [Select]

12345 67890-=
QWERT`YUIOP\
ASDFG[HJKL;'
ZXCVB]NM,./

Not too useful with the tiny spacebar of a normal Japanese layout, but with a large one, entirely possible to be useful for non-Japanese typing.

Title: Re: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 24 February 2010, 18:29:48

Since there are lots of tourists most stores have someone that can at least understand English.

Though, if you do your research beforehand you don't really need to talk to them.
Just tryout the keyboard before (they are all on display at least), match the serial numbers, bring it to the counter, and pay the money the register tells you.

Title: Japanese Keyboard Dilemma
Post by: majestouch on Wed, 24 February 2010, 20:34:17

I wrote up a "where to get a keyboard in akihabara" post last year with directions from the station and a map, even some tips on paying:

http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=92551&postcount=5