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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 07:39:58

Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 07:39:58
Has anyone experienced any finger stiffness from using Topre switches?  It seems that since I got my HHKB, I have been waking up with stiff knuckles.  It only lasts for a few minutes, but it hurts to make a fist, but once I open and close my had a few times, it's OK.  I don't know if it's because the additional tactility switching from Cherry browns is causing me to push harder, thus bottoming out more.  Perhaps, since I have used browns for the past year exclusively, my fingers just need to adjust to the new switch and force curve.  It doesn't really bother me much during the day, as I keep my fingers moving typing all day, but it does concern me.  I really like the HHKB, and I don't want to have to sell it, especially since I can't get a refund, but I also don't want to be causing any long-term injury.  My GF would be disappointed if something were to happen to my fingers.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 07:59:23
hasn't happened to me yet on the HHKB but had something similar when I was using the filco with white xm's. Typing on that was a workout for the fingers...
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:04:41
Did it go away over time, or is it something that still bothers you?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:19:28
It went away within a few days. I had to stop using the XM switches, sadly, they were too much on the fingers.
I have not had that problem with any other keyboard, including the  IBM's. The black alps, orange alps and fukka's that I use are fine also.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:22:15
Weird.  I think I will keep after it for one more week.  If I still have problems with it after that, I might have to give up on it.  I don't want to do any permanent damage.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:27:09
how hard are you pounding on the HHKB. IIRC, the cherry browns are pretty close in feel to the Topre; I think the Topre is alot smoother overall though. But neither one requires alot of effort to press.
I remember going to a cherry brown after coming of a BS switch and was just hammering them. It took a few weeks to settle down and learn to go lightly. Even then it didn't hurt my fingers, I created quite the racket though.
Who said browns are quiet? lol
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:36:51
I think that's part of the problem.  Over my keyboard "history," I have gone from heavier to lighter switches.  To me, the Cherry browns feel a little lighter than the Topres, but I believe that's due to different force curve.  The tactile point is much sharper in the Topre than the Cherry browns, so I feel like I am getting that "Tug-O-War" effect where I have to use a certain amount of force to push through the tactile point to where I can't stop before bottoming out.  I don't feel like I am absolutely pounding the keys, but I am pressing them harder.  I do notice that I miss keystrokes from time to time by not pressing hard enough.  It could be, too, that I just need to wear these switches in a bit and get them loosened up.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: MsKeyboard on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:38:49
itlnstln,
I would look more at how you are positioning your hands than worry about the switch.  Have had a Realforce on my desk for months, and just can't seem to go back to anything else for more than a few hours.
Let us know what happens...............Later
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:58:39
Quote from: webwit;160848
It would prevent you from putting the trash outside?

No, doing the dishes.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:03:50
Quote from: MsKeyboard;160846
itlnstln,
I would look more at how you are positioning your hands than worry about the switch. Have had a Realforce on my desk for months, and just can't seem to go back to anything else for more than a few hours.
Let us know what happens...............Later

Will do.  I think I use a pretty standard position, but I'll make sure I'm not doing anything too weird.  On that note, it might be something where this new (and awkard, at times) layout might be putting my fingers in some odd positions.  It's mainly my right hand that hurts (the middle knuckle on my fingers), and that hand is in charge of handling the Fn key and the related actions.  My left hand hurts less, but it's role is not much different than its role on a regular keyboard layout.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:04:26
Quote from: ripster;160852
Could be the layout. Are you one hand "clawing" the navigation keys?
 
This is why I still would prefer the HHKB3 have arrow keys.

Pretty much.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:29:14
I map the function key over on the left hand side. I still do the 'claw' but don't find it to cause any discomfort.  I really like not having to move my hand  to use the arrow keys.
That and the easy access to page up/down and home/end make it pretty awesome to me.

But to get there I had to put Fnc on the left side.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:44:11
screw emacs, real men use vi
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:45:20
Quote from: bigpook;160868
I map the function key over on the left hand side.

D'oh.  I'm kind of an idiot.  Here I am clawing the Fn key on the right side, and I have had it mapped on the left the whole time.  I need to get used to using it.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:51:29
Nope.  That guy looks so weak that he needs the Segway, because he doesn't have the leg strength to walk.  That, and there's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:57:59
You're damn straight.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:10:12
Quote from: itlnstln;160877
Nope.  That guy looks so weak that he needs the Segway, because he doesn't have the leg strength to walk.  That, and there's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.



maybe, but he looks like he has some serious nerd cred.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:11:07
Quote from: webwit;160878
Yeah I guess you are right, you bought a **** emacs keyboard from a weakling, and payed hundreds of dollars for it!


: ) I don't even use emacs...
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:14:05
Quote from: bigpook;160883
maybe, but he looks like he has some serious nerd cred.

That's not something I, personally, value. That said, the Guidos on Jersey Shore aren't men in my book, either. They also make me ashamed to be Italian.
 
Quote from: bigpook;160884
: ) I don't even use emacs...

1, 2, 3, not it!
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: TexasFlood on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:17:37
Quote from: itlnstln;160877
There's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.

Quite the broad generalization, I must say!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8116&stc=1&d=1267200969)
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: megarat on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:19:44
I got hand pain from the HHKB so I switched over to my homemade Alps board and the pain went away.  In my case I don't think it was the layout because it was equally in both hands.  But the pain was a dull ache that occurred after extended use, not when waking up in the morning.  (I think it's because I'm used to/prefer heavier switches and either was tensing up so I wouldn't bottom out, or was bottoming out too much.)  It didn't feel like a long-term-injury-type of pain, but either way, it went away just fine when I switched (no pun intended).
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:24:42
Quote from: webwit;160875
Show Image
(http://member.wide.ad.jp/%7Ewada/wadaseg2.png)


Webwit looks nicer than I imagined.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:31:05
Quote from: bigpook;160872
screw emacs, real men use vi

But vi isn't an operating system, silly...
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:00:57
Quote from: ripster;160852
Could be the layout.  Are you one hand "clawing" the navigation keys?

I'm thinking along the same lines as Ripster. I would think that clawing at the arrows might be a possible culprit. If it is indeed pain that you're getting as a result of using the HHKB, then the most repetitive and unusual aspects of HHKB use is what I'd zero in on.

There's a downside to being able to keep your fingers glued to the home row most of the time and it's that you amplify the repetitive nature of some aspects of typing, which is already very repetitive. We have a lot of people here who are really concerned about the loss of efficiency or the potential injuries that you can have from reaching for certain keys, but the flip side of having everything closer is that you hit the same keys more often. Some people may be done in by awkward reaching and some may be done in by cumulative overload.

I'm sure you've used heavier switches before so it seems unlikely that a slight change in the force curve alone will thrash your knuckles unless there was a typing techinque problem in there as well. If it was the force curve alone that was causing you problems due to fatigue, you'd be more likely to get soreness in the muscular webby space right below the base of your knuckles in your hand.

How do you have your keyboard situated? Do you have an adjustable keyboard tray, a keyboard drawer, or is it on a desk? How do you sit at your workstation?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:12:46
Quote from: hyperlinked;160900
How do you have your keyboard situated? Do you have an adjustable keyboard tray, a keyboard drawer, or is it on a desk? How do you sit at your workstation?

My keyboard is on a desk.  The height is right at my elbows, thus when I sit up straight, my upper arm and forearm make a right angle (I usually lean back when I type as it helps keep my wrists straight, and it's comfortable).  I have had this setup for about 6 years, now, so I don't think it's the culprit.  After reading this dicussion, I am leaning to the new layout as the culprit more so than the switches.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: TexasFlood on Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:22:21
Quote from: ripster;160897
We're drifting off topic AND THIS IS A SERIOUS MEDICAL CONDITION!

I recommend {see above}

"Soft Silicone Funny Stress Reliever Toy" (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.25874)

That was my first thought, that it looked like a, uh, stress reliever, ahem, :happy:
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:32:09
Quote from: itlnstln;160902
After reading this dicussion, I am leaning to the new layout as the culprit more so than the switches.


How long have you had the HHKB as your primary keyboard? How many hours a day are you at it?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:33:22
I got it Monday, and I use it about 10 hours a day off and on.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:56:31
Quote from: itlnstln;160926
I got it Monday, and I use it about 10 hours a day off and on.


Did you have any of these symptoms in any manner before you started using the HHKB? Is it something that would occasionally bother you once in a while, but has since bothered you every day since you started using your HHKB?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:59:30
Heres how I see it:
For what it's worth, comparing the topre switch between the cherry brown, the topre's don't "spring back" as much.  That is, on the return after a keypress it gives you less force.  I found this to be less satisfactory as often I bottom out so I can get a quick rebound and "spring" to move on to the next key.  Topre does not support you in doing this as much as cherry browns do.

In this very busy graph below taken from the topre wiki, you can see there is a major difference in force between 2mm and 4mm in the cherry browns vs topre.  I assume this is the same for downstroke as well as upstroke.  Therefore, when you are deep in the key (beyond the activation point), the topre "rests" more, whereas the cherry brown "pushes back" more.  The spring on the topre provides little to no force resistance, and if it does, it only provides it in the first 2mm travel before the switch actuates.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4595&d=1253159601)

Why do we bottom out in general, why don't we just stop at the actuation point?  Well, I think it's because when you are typing faster, you rely on the heavier resistance at the "beyond actuation" point to bounce your finger back to get to the next key quickly.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:01:07
I had no problems before the HHKB, so it's either layout or the switches or a combination of the two.  I think another week or two will allow me enough time to get acclimated to the 'board, and if I don't, I'll switch back.  That would be pretty disappointing, though.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:05:42
Quote from: elbowglue;160935
Heres how I see it:
For what it's worth, comparing the topre switch between the cherry brown, the topre's don't "spring back" as much. That is, on the return after a keypress it gives you less force. I found this to be less satisfactory as often I bottom out so I can get a quick rebound and "spring" to move on to the next key. Topre does not support you in doing this as much as cherry browns do.
 
Why do we bottom out in general, why don't we just stop at the actuation point? Well, I think it's because when you are typing faster, you rely on the heavier resistance at the "beyond actuation" point to bounce your finger back to get to the next key quickly.

This is what I was thinking at first; that's why I initially blamed the switch.  My reasoning was that since I don't bottom out as much or as hard on the browns, that the more and harder bottoming out I am doing on the Topre was causing some sort of trauma to my fingers, thus the pain in my knuckles.  Since I am right handed, and my right hand is stronger, I was causing more trauma in my right vs. my left.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:11:45
Now that I did realize that I mapped Fn to the left Option button, I am going to use that to avoid clawing so much.  I am also going to try typing a little softer, too, so I don't slam into the bottom, especially if I don't have to.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:19:18
Fn on the left is the only way I can use the HHKB. I think it should be there by default. No idea why they put it on the right side as thats were the arrow keys are. Maybe if I had 6 fingers on my right hand it would work....
I think if you give it a go on the left side you will find it very comfortable. Once you adjust you will find yourself looking for the Fn key on every other keyboard you use and actually get mildly annoyed that you have to move your right hand, all the way over to BFE just to use the arrows keys.
Really, it is annoying.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:47:48
thats cool but its all too busy for me. I like it on the left.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:57:52
Quote from: webwit;160943
Well, I also have a Fn on the left, but that is just silly. Put you index finger over an arrow key, and your little finger hovers over Fn.

This is how I use the arrow keys.  The left Fn is better for the multikey combos I having problems with earlier this week.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 26 February 2010, 16:25:10
Quote from: itlnstln;160938
...that the more and harder bottoming out I am doing on the Topre was causing some sort of trauma to my fingers, thus the pain in my knuckles.  Since I am right handed, and my right hand is stronger, I was causing more trauma in my right vs. my left.


I don't think it's very likely that you'd injure your knuckles from bottoming out for four days unless you have glass hands or are trying to punch the keys through the bottom of the board. Bottoming out is bad because of the excess strain it places on your flexor tendons and muscles in your hand and possible decrease in circulation and increase in inflammatory response that the strains can cause.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 26 February 2010, 17:46:39
Quote from: itlnstln;160829
Has anyone experienced any finger stiffness from using Topre switches?  It seems that since I got my HHKB, I have been waking up with stiff knuckles.  It only lasts for a few minutes, but it hurts to make a fist, but once I open and close my had a few times, it's OK.  I don't know if it's because the additional tactility switching from Cherry browns is causing me to push harder, thus bottoming out more.

This sounds like my symptom from a brown to black keyboard after 2 years on browns. I'd suggest it's the changed key characteristics, not a layout issue: caused by bottoming out, or force curve.  

For me it went away (without giving up the new keyboard) within a week, by varying my situation A LOT. I switched mice every night, alternated between 2 different black keyboards, and a brown, and now my pain is all abated.

Maybe there's a penalty (or curse) when you leave Cherry browns after a long time. Maybe brown users are just sensitive and prone to conspiracy theories like ripster said (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=159403&postcount=12).
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: elservo on Fri, 26 February 2010, 23:57:28
I'm of the school of thought that your hands are just getting used to the new claw techniques you're adopting with your new keyboard.  I think your right hand just isn't used to making such movements, but now that you're changing fn hands, I bet you that your hand pain will cease.  

You guys are all so thorough with everything, and much more knowledgeable, but I just wanted to give a simple explanation.  I can say that when I switched from rubber domes to cherry blues, I took a few days before I felt comfortable with it.  I typed constantly in order to enjoy the new switches, and I paid for it with a little bit of fatigue and some stiffness, but that's all gone now.  

I think it's just a new way of pointing your fingers that is giving your muscles some pain.  Keep flexing those fingers and take a lot of breaks.  You know you never want to give up those Topres!  I certainly wouldn't.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: elservo on Sat, 27 February 2010, 13:45:35
You're all permitted to throw money at me, though.  Paper money, please.  Just need enough money to get an HHKB Pro of my own, thanks guyz!
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: TexasFlood on Sat, 27 February 2010, 22:42:05
Quote from: webwit;161208
Are you like this (http://www.celebrityvideozone.com/lucy-liu-striptease/)? Then I might consider it.

Imagining webwit grabbing his roll of ones and heading out the door.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8139&stc=1&d=1267332007)
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: elservo on Sat, 27 February 2010, 23:33:13
Glad I didn't let my grandmother click that link!
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 28 February 2010, 16:02:04
Quote from: webwit;161208
Are you like this (http://www.celebrityvideozone.com/lucy-liu-striptease/)? Then I might consider it.

Acting skill and chest flatness about the same as Keanu Reeves?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 28 February 2010, 17:31:09
Ew-ew-ew! Ew! Ewwwie-ew-ew!

I really wish we had not gone there.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: TexasFlood on Sun, 28 February 2010, 18:02:15
No kidding, ruined it for me.  Now imagining Keanu Reeves in drag rather than Lucy Liu, :sad:
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 28 February 2010, 18:37:39
Something to help us move on.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8145&stc=1&d=1267403821)

EDIT:This one will offend ripster, so I posted the other first.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8146&stc=1&d=1267404198)
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 28 February 2010, 19:07:20
Quote from: ricercar;161290
Ew-ew-ew! Ew! Ewwwie-ew-ew!

I really wish we had not gone there.


Too late!

Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 28 February 2010, 20:30:21
Oh I don't know I'm partial to cats especially these kinds of cats:
> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340">[/youtube]
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 01 March 2010, 07:08:31
OK, I think I have come to the conclusion that it might not be the keyboard at all, at least not specifically.  Since I don't do any computing on the weekends for the most part, and I was in Dallas away from my PC, anyway, I figured it would be a good chance to rest the ailing joints and start anew on Monday.  Well... I woke up this morning, and my knuckles still hurt just as they did last week, so it seems there might be something else going on here.  If it continues this week, I may have to go see a doctor.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 01 March 2010, 09:05:23
Quote from: itlnstln;161338
OK, I think I have come to the conclusion that it might not be the keyboard at all, at least not specifically.  


Don't worry, this thread will go on! We'll keep talking about your hands and other random crap in your hands' honor. ;)

Ah, never underestimate the power of coincidence. The HHKB may have just made you more aware of your subtle hand discomfort.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 04 March 2010, 07:13:39
I fingered, err.. figured it out.  The stiffness is coming from disc golf.  Any stiffness I had in my left hand is pretty much gone.  I'm not too sure why I had any to begin with.  After practicing yesterday, I could feel a little soreness in my joints, and this morning they were a little stiff.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 04 March 2010, 09:21:48
Hey, I've done that last one.  I think they call it "Beerkram Yoga."
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 20 April 2010, 15:19:25
OK, so I have been on my HHKB for a couple of months now, and my fingers still hurt (badly).  I think I am going to swap out with my Cherry for awhile and see what happens.  If I start to feel better, be on the lookout for an HHKB for sale.  It would be disappointing, too, since I really like the layout.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 20 April 2010, 15:32:06
I wish.  It's mainly in the middle knuckles of both my right and left hands.  I can't even make a fist in the morning.  The pain is pretty bad.  I think what is happening is that I am bottoming out harder than I did on the Cherry browns, thus causing some trauma to the knuckles.  Just switching to my SPOS for the last few minutes, I can tell a big difference in the way my hands feel while typing.  Because there is still a rubber dome of sorts in the Topre switch, I still have to press the key until the dome collapses, and I cannot stop from bottoming out like I can on Cherrys.  I am going to switch to one of my Cherrys for about a week or so and see what happens.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 20 April 2010, 15:37:50
Yeah, I hope not.  if it persists after the switch, I might just have to.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: MsKeyboard on Tue, 20 April 2010, 16:43:26
I have visions of you sitting back in your chair everyday, doing the Mafia style "fingers laced together, backwards knuckle cracking thing", but that is probably just my vivid imagination!
Hope it's not the KB, but better that than the Frisbee golf.......... ;)
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 20 April 2010, 17:55:07
Quote from: ripster;173879
Emacs pinky. (http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html)
Show Image
(http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/i/ms_n4000_keyboard.jpg)

Slight quibble with this guy for me... MS did a good job on the right side of the board, but not so much on the left side. Because of the ergo angle, the modifier keys on the left side actually get farther away from your thumb. Also, the buttons appear to be much more thumb friendly than on other keyboards, but because of unusually shaped center keys, it's not as close as it may seem... better than a conventional board, but not as convient as it looks.

You won't really notice it much when you're doing normal typing, but in mousing and using left handed shortcuts at the same time, your left arm may change to a straighter angle as you shift your body weight toward the mouse as is natural when you're doing anything that requires higher precision. Think of how you distribute your body weight when you're writing. You go toward your writing hand.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 20 April 2010, 19:04:02
I suppose, but I don't feel any discomfort when I use the HHKB. I like the claw effect. : )
Trackballs and mice are a different story though.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 20 April 2010, 19:11:11
The first quote mentions

"Even worse, some users can actually continue typing with their hands in this claw like manner, with the fingers being held high over the keys like an eagle’s talons over it’s prey."

I don't type with fingers held high over the keys. I don't seem to type any differently between a HHKB or a tenkeyless, its just that on the HHKB my hands don't move as much.

But no doubt, if a keyboard is causing hand pain than it doesn't matter, time to try a different keyboard.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 20 April 2010, 19:32:35
Quote from: hyperlinked;173922
the modifier keys on the left side actually get farther away from your thumb.

Thumb? Do you mean you use the thumb on all the modifiers? That's good for Alt, but not so great for the others. I use my little finger for shift and control. And (try to) use my other hand to press the letter.
Quote from: webwit;173928
The HHKB is a clawing keyboard


As much as I object in theory to using one hand to do combos, I do find myself doing one-handed copy and paste quite often. And it's true, doing Fn-Left/Right/PgUp on the HHKB uses exactly the same hand shape. So anyone who does one-handed Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V should be OK with the HHKB. (Home and End are a slightly longer stretch though.)
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 20 April 2010, 20:14:49
Quote from: Rajagra;173938
Thumb? Do you mean you use the thumb on all the modifiers? That's good for Alt, but not so great for the others. I use my little finger for shift and control. And (try to) use my other hand to press the letter.

The guy writing the Emacs Pinky article was specifically talking about thumbs.

Anyway, I think ItlnStln is going to have a hard time getting useful doctor advice on this until he's got a real good idea what's causing it because this is the sort of thing that's really hard to tease out with strength and flexibility tests. It's best to try some measures on your own to gather some data points before trying to get a doctor to figure out what's happening.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: kriminal on Wed, 21 April 2010, 06:28:46
Quote from: webwit;161305
You can wash away the image by replacing Reeves with Roseanne Barr.

That switch matrix is all wrong. This is more like it (using superheroes - more or less).



hey hey! are you saying brown cherries are ghey?

oh itlnstln does your family have a history of artrithis?
just asking..
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 April 2010, 06:43:12
Neither my mom or dad have arthritis, but my grandmother on my dad's side had rheumatoid arthritis.  I have had blood work done, and the rheumatoid arthritis isn't a problem for me.  I think I ought to send ripster my HHKB for awhile.  The switches in it don't feel like the ones in the Realforce.  They don't have the same soft landing, and they feel a little more rubber dome-like.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 21 April 2010, 06:46:47
I don't think you necessarily need to claw to use a HHKB. It's compact, but a board with full sized keys after all.

The ergo.uk article exaggerated the clawing motion a bit, but what they were warning against is basically legit, but I can simplify it a bit.

1) There are certain positions in which your joints are seriously weaker than others. It's not just a matter of physics. At different degrees of bend in your elbow, the ability of your biceps to generate force changes. The same applies to your fingers, your wrists, and so forth.

2) Clawing puts both your wrist and your fingers in weak positions and it's a double whammy because the strain compounds.

3) When you do work with your joints in weak positions, you are amplifying the work and therefore the strain. You can experience this by trying to lift weights over your head while in a slouched posture. You can't lift as much. Sloped shoulders are weaker shoulders. Sloped backs are weaker backs.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 April 2010, 09:28:45
I will say one thing, I am typing a helluva lot faster on my G80-3000 than I do on the HHKB.  The browns allow me to glide a lot more over the keys than the Topres do.  I really miss the layout, though.  I still find myself pressing Caps Lock for Ctrl and \ for Backspace.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 21 April 2010, 09:31:39
I noticed a speed increase also. I actually type faster on BS keys than I do on the Topres.
I remapped my keys to emulate the HHKB, for the most part and that seems to be a good compromise.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 21 April 2010, 09:48:58
I've done that on my linux box, and added a mod key so I can get the arrow cluster working, page up/down, home and end. That pretty much makes it for me.
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: AvengeR on Wed, 21 April 2010, 09:56:34
Quote from: ripster;160852
Could be the layout.  Are you one hand "clawing" the navigation keys?

This is why I still would prefer the HHKB3 have arrow keys.

this is why the hhkb3 thread is needed.
Ok now i know there's some discussion somewhere in the keyboard pics topic and in between of some others (like this one), but it'd useful to have it organized in one place so best case scenario PFU looks at it (and at the same time puts an optional geekhack key in recognition).

Quote from: ripster;173939
Well, the main point is I hope ItlnStln gets better despite my skepticism it is from bottoming out on those plush Topres.

I'm building the case for ItlnStln's multimillion lawsuit against PFU.  It's gonna be bigger than the McDonalds Hot Coffee lawsuit. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants)  The threat of a lawsuit should at least give me the CHOICE of arrow keys on the HHKB3 like the Japanese have.

is there an hhkb with arrow keys?
Title: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 21 April 2010, 10:07:46
Quote from: AvengeR;174095
is there an hhkb with arrow keys?


http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6775 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6775)
(http://www.geekstuff4u.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/H/a/Happy_Hacking_Pro_WH_1.jpg)