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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: GreeN on Tue, 02 March 2010, 12:54:21

Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: GreeN on Tue, 02 March 2010, 12:54:21: Hey, chaps!

I bought the FKBN104M/EB about a year agoo and I have to say, it has held up extremely well over that time with moderate too heavy use! Set aside the dust and various foood-crumbs that have inevitably found their way under the keys between cleans, the whole board feels like new!

Though recently I have fooound a rather annoying problem that is becoming increasingly persistent. If you haven't guessed already*, it is that my "O" key decides to repeat itself without any user input. This is not a problem with the software sensitivity; I can literally produce up to 4 "O"'s simultaneously in one actuation. And ooof course, this is only happening with the one key.

I've taken the cap off and the switch looks perfectly normal from the outside, and a firm jiggle temporarily fixes the problem, so I can only assume it is the switch itself that is having problems. Does anyone have any remedies oor solutioons (OOr even just some enlightenment) toooo the situation?

*I have purposely NOT corrected the faults in the above text just to illustrate how frustrating this problem is. I love my Filco and it would break my heart to have to put her in the drawer of shame :(
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 02 March 2010, 13:41:50: Contact user majestouch from Elitekeyboards in the US or Bruce from KeyboardCo in the UK. They might be able to arrange for a repair. The symptom is called "chattering" by some, and it's caused by a switch not being debounced properly. I am not sure if this is a switch-related issue or if it has something to do with the logic/firmware. This issue has come up a few times, but it seems fairly rare.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 02 March 2010, 13:58:49: It's probably best to explore the repair option first, but if that doesn't look promising it would be worth using a compressed air blower to blast any dust out of the switch. Next step would be squirting a little isopropyl alcohol or other contact cleaner into the switch and pressing it repeatedly to try and clean the contacts.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 02 March 2010, 14:13:49: I've seen that before, on a 15 years old, but apparently unused G80 though, not a one year old Filco.

It started with one key. I opened the switch and couldn't see anything suspicious. Thought as it was broken anyway, I could as well try to learn something and poked between the contacts with a watchmaker's screwdriver to see how they worked. Much to my surprise, not only the switch survived that, but the bouncing was gone too afterwards. A couple days later another switch started bouncing, then a third, then a fourth. Same procedure fixed all of them. The keyboard worked fine after that for several weeks - until I needed the stems and springs for my G80-2100.

The only possible reason I can think of, the only thing I might have fixed by random poking in the contacts, is corrosion. But that shouldn't occur on a one year old board. Actually that shouldn't ever happen with fancy gold-plated MX contacts...

Unfortuately you can't open the switch case in a Filco without unsoldering it. If you have to unsolder it anyway, you probably better swap it for a new one. Replacement switches should be available in the UK.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: GreeN on Tue, 02 March 2010, 14:26:44: This sounds worse than I thought, unfortunately. It's a shame that my "Do not remove" warranty sticker has a big hole in it. :redface:

I can pick up a new switch easily enough, though should I be worried about the possibility of firmware problems as itlnstln mentioned?
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 02 March 2010, 14:32:22: If the problem occurs on the O again after you swapped the switch, then you should be worried about firmware problems.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 02 March 2010, 14:33:54: Since it only happens on the one switch, I would venture to say that it's a switch problem and not a logic one.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: ecru on Tue, 02 March 2010, 14:50:42: I having similar problems with a Filco coming up to 2 years old, only it is on more than one key, but more intermittent (for the moment). Given Mental Hobbit's experience, I think I will be trying a spring and plunger swap with a g80-1800 I have here.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: ecru on Wed, 03 March 2010, 00:40:22: Quote from: ecru;161530
Given Mental Hobbit's experience, I think I will be trying a spring and plunger swap with a g80-1800 I have here.

I have just done a spring and plunger swap to the g80-1800. Gone from whites to browns on that board. Happy days are here again :).
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 March 2010, 14:04:36: Quote from: ripster;162005
I feel so nerdy saying hysteresis.

I feel like an OB doctor, but YMMV.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: salcan on Fri, 05 March 2010, 14:08:11: Quote from: ripster;162005
Nice job!

The other reason Cherry Browns are going to be more prone to key bounce is because they have little hysteresis. I feel so nerdy saying hysteresis.

Show Image
(http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/cherry_mx_diagram_softcontact2.gif)

how do you mean? i understand hystersis, as in some sort of lag, but i don't quite see how the browns are affected.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: salcan on Fri, 05 March 2010, 14:37:20: OK - best defined as "the tendency of a key switch to remain in a closed position after a partial release of downward pressure". Got it.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: GreeN on Mon, 15 March 2010, 00:24:15: Guys I'm on the verge of tears! My "U" key is playing up now too! It's nowhere near as bad as my "O" key (yet?), but this can't be good.. :(

No liquids whatsoever have been near this board, I'm sure it can't be corrosion. Would it just be best for someone to have a look at it?
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:11:58: You bought that board from Majestouch? He seems to have pretty good connections to Filco/Diatec, so maybe he could discuss this with them. And maybe Diatec would like to examine your board at their lab... rather than watching us discuss this issue in public for another year.

The switches weren't born the instant you bought the board. Probably they were manufactured in Europe, travelled in a ship container to Taiwan, were stored there for an unknown period of time under unknown conditions... Plenty opportunities to catch a healthy breath of unhealthy wet, salty air before they arrived on your desk.
Title: You learnt the truth of Majestouch.
Post by: su3 on Mon, 29 March 2010, 11:29:31: You learnt the truth of Majestouch.

Isn't it the same?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmvH_0LTYtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-p2BJA3rng

The keyboard mania in Japan thinks that the quality of Majestouch is the worst in the keyboard of Japan.

You should use RealForce or Cherry G80 instead of Majestouch.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: elbowglue on Mon, 29 March 2010, 11:54:04: Quote from: ripster;167789
Text Comments (1) Options
ripster5555 (14 minutes ago) 0 Reply
This is caused by your old bulging CRT screen. You should really consider a LCD monitor.

You are a meanie :)

Question - supposing you have a switch that chatters. Is this because of the stem, the spring, or the base of the switch? I.E. if you had a chattering switch on a g80-3000 (PCB mounted) could you remove the top of the switch and stem, and fix the problem by cleaning / swapping out the spring and stem? or would you still have to resolder the base of the switch?
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 29 March 2010, 12:32:39: Quote from: su3;167786
You learnt the truth of Majestouch.

Isn't it the same?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmvH_0LTYtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-p2BJA3rng

I get a similar problem on one of my machines. It's nothing to do with the keyboard, there's some piece of bloatware that frequently locks the machine up for a few moments. It's insanely annoying when typing. I think it's the antivirus. Or Acrobat. Or the Java virtual machine. Or iTunes.

Bah! I've never been forced to reinstall Windows before, but if uninstalling some apps doesn't fix it then reinstall time it is.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: su3 on Mon, 29 March 2010, 12:36:07: Quote from: ripster;167789
KBDMania is a Korean website full of Filco users.

You got the Japanese and Koreans mixed up. They DON'T look alike.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8775&stc=1&d=1269881390)

Majestouch is garbage. However, we wish to express our gratitude to the people in South Korea that buys Majestouch and contributes to Japan.

You should buy a lot of Majestouch, and contribute to Japan.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 29 March 2010, 13:00:59: Though I prefer Topres or PCB mounted Cherry MX switches to plate mounted switches like Filco uses, I think calling Magestouch/Filco garbage is a bit strong. They are very well made keyboards. And their key caps are improved on the white otaku, though not quite as comfy as the black otaku or Topre keycaps.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: kriminal on Mon, 29 March 2010, 13:24:02: Quote from: su3;167797
Majestouch is garbage. However, we wish to express our gratitude to the people in South Korea that buys Majestouch and contributes to Japan.

You should buy a lot of Majestouch, and contribute to Japan.

i beg to differ
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: skcheng on Mon, 29 March 2010, 13:29:30: If you can desolder/solder, then simply purchase a new switch from Digikey and swap out the switch. I just replaced my space bar switch last week and it literally took minutes to do. The hardest thing to do is to open up the case. Feels like it's going to break when I'm opening the case up with a butter knife.

If you look at my spacebar switch thread, you can easily see how corroded my switch had become. So far no other issues, but I bought several spares just in case.

skc
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 29 March 2010, 14:42:29: Quote from: ripster;167821
Su3 sure reminds me of Vivaibmspacesaver. (http://geekhack.org/search.php?searchid=395894)

Yep, a bit too similar. Is Su3 l33t for Sue? I heard a song about A Man Named Sue.

Quote from: ripster;167803
?? Improved keys?? Have any pics?

Improved in that they won't get shiny spots anymore because they are already kind of shiny. :)
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: morf on Mon, 29 March 2010, 23:59:45: ripster

You are foolish or Japanese secret agency of FILCO. However, do not worry.

Because the American is also foolish, mis-manufactured Majestouch/FILCO cannot be detected.

You must buy Majestouch, and do your best for Majestouch, FILCO , China and Great Japan.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 30 March 2010, 01:27:44: Quote from: ripster;168011
Yes, how did you figure that out?

I am Our Man Filco!

It sounds like there's something grammatically wrong with that sentence, but I can't put my finger on it.

Oh well, dangling participles are one fetish I've never cultivated.
Title: Broken Brown Cherry MX switch?
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 30 March 2010, 02:03:18: Anyone here speak enough english to explain to me the reason why "firco sux"? And what is the "well built" cherry switch alternative to us americans? I expect Das to suffer the same reliability issues as filco in terms of chattering switches. (by the way none of my filco boards have ever chattered) Someone enlighten me?