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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Nonmouse on Wed, 03 March 2010, 18:49:45

Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Nonmouse on Wed, 03 March 2010, 18:49:45
So, I'm given to understand that the PAC-64 network sniffer definitely has the Cherry blues.

How about the other versions?  PAC-65, PAC-60, PAC-62?  (I kinda assume there were PAC-61 and PAC-63 models in there, but I've never seen one come up on fleaBay.)

Anybody out there that knows which of these models used Cherry blues?  All of 'em?  Some of 'em?  Some of 'em, sometimes?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 03 March 2010, 18:54:45
I've been tracking these for a few weeks now and I haven't found too much good information. I can tell you that there are a few keyboard variants so you can't just buy a PAC 6x and assume it will the keyboard you want. That said, the ones with the desktop style keyboard do seem to have the blues. The ones with the trackpad don't.

From what I can tell the most desirable model is the one with the trackpoint in the top right corner.

The connection type is the biggest problem with these. Most use RJ11 while some don't have a cord and instead have a jack that the sniffer plugs into.

Caveat- this is all based on what I can find from searching around. There doesn't seem to be any good data on these. I'm going to buy one sooner or later though...
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 10 March 2010, 13:17:41
I was looking at some of these keyboards before, I wonder if this would work to connect them to a modern PC:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Wang-724-Keyboard-Cable-for-725-3770-We-make-them_W0QQitemZ130363768101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e5a493d25#ht_1295wt_958

Someone buy this and tell me if it works:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dolch-PAC60-Sniffer-Network-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ150421672026QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2305d4905a#ht_2409wt_754

Seems like a good way to get a US layout g80-1800 with cherry blues with double shots in a cool color scheme.  Should be 15.9inches x 7 inches in size which in the heirarchy of smallness is pretty decent.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 10 March 2010, 14:11:00
Quote from: elbowglue;162953
I was looking at some of these keyboards before, I wonder if this would work to connect them to a modern PC:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Wang-724-Keyboard-Cable-for-725-3770-We-make-them_W0QQitemZ130363768101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e5a493d25#ht_1295wt_958

Someone buy this and tell me if it works:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dolch-PAC60-Sniffer-Network-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ150421672026QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2305d4905a#ht_2409wt_754

Seems like a good way to get a US layout g80-1800 with cherry blues with double shots in a cool color scheme.  Should be 15.9inches x 7 inches in size which in the heirarchy of smallness is pretty decent.


I'm watching that auction, but I'm not going to buy. I don't like the looks of that keyboard--there seems to be a removable connector on the left side which makes me think that the jack on the computer might be permanent. Plus $45 shipping?

As for that converter, I don't know enough about the Wang keyboards to say anything, but in the listing he says "PS/2 Plug with coiled flat cable RJ45", which sounds about right. The converter looks like a a big 'ole AT barrel, but it could just be the picture.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 10 March 2010, 16:23:10
OK I emailed him. He said:

"The keyboard is attached to the unit thru a cable. One side of the cable to the unit is a 5-pin male DIN connector. The other side of the cable to the keyboard is a 6-pin mini-DIN male connector(PS/2 Style). There is no model # on the keyboard."

I'd skip this one, unless if someone has a good idea.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 March 2010, 16:27:17
Sort of OT:  What were these Dolch units used for?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 10 March 2010, 16:31:39
It's a packet analyzer. I believe they were used for inspecting networks for problems, detecting weaknesses, and monitoring. This is just a portable, self-contained unit.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 March 2010, 16:39:07
Quote from: salcan;163012
This is just a portable, self-contained unit.

... that came with a badass keyboard in a highly sought-after form factor.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 10 March 2010, 16:48:20
Quote from: itlnstln;163016
... that came with a badass keyboard in a highly sought-after form factor.


Though I haven't used one yet, I'm confident that it's going to be a really solid board. This is, after, all a G80-18xx series keyboard.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 04 April 2010, 01:53:42
I picked up a $35 Dolch PAC-60 network analyzer today because it has a Cherry blue keyboard. The Cherry blue keyboard has a standard PS/2 port (female), and the lunchbox has an AT port (female). I'm using a PS/2 KVM cable with a PS/2-to-male_AT adapter to explore. Haven't put it on a blue cube yet. Pictures coming when my camera comes back from someone else's vacation.

Basically it's a dedicated 486 with 8M RAM and 15M free on the allegedly 20M HD. Boots to DOS 6.22 or a menu with various network analyzer functionality. I want to put 95 or 98 or 2K on it; something that lets me watch DVDs on the circa 8" LCD.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Sun, 04 April 2010, 10:12:40
DVD...you'll probably need hardware acceleration for that, and on a 486...it won't exist.

Win2k on a 486 isn't supposed to be possible either, but I'm interested to see if you make it work.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 04 April 2010, 10:25:48
Check this out (http://www.winhistory.de/more/386/xpmini_eng.htm)

Either way, you'd be pretty mad to put anything more than Windows 3.11 on that thing.

Does the thing even have a colour screen?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Sun, 04 April 2010, 11:10:34
Quote from: ricercar;169412
I picked up a $35 Dolch PAC-60 network analyzer today because it has a Cherry blue keyboard. The Cherry blue keyboard has a standard PS/2 port (female), and the lunchbox has an AT port (female). I'm using a PS/2 KVM cable with a PS/2-to-male_AT adapter to explore. Haven't put it on a blue cube yet. Pictures coming when my camera comes back from someone else's vacation.


Hey, nice! Glad someone was brave enough to get one. I've still been locking but the shipping charges are usually a lot. Glad to hear that the keyboard is working, that's a relief.

Can you post a pic of the board? Does it say the Cherry model number on there anywhere? Apparently most don't.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Nonmouse on Sun, 04 April 2010, 12:39:12
A little more info on Dolch keyboards...

I asked the seller to pull of a keycap from this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230455932942)  Flexpac, which has a touchpad in the keyboard.  Instead, he disassembled it.  o.O

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4490316554_83280ddfd2_o.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4490316628_b1972562ba_o.jpg)

Hmmm... Low profile keycaps.  Doesn't look good for the idea of it having MX swtiches...

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4489672801_fb2af68814_o.jpg)

After re-assembly and pulling off a cap...

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4490316742_5a8da683fd_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/4489672575_1d5fdfc0f3_o.jpg)
 
Nope.  No Cherry blues.  Looks like ML switches to me...

From pictures of Pac-65s I've seen, it looks like some of them have low-profile keycaps like the Flexpac (and a touchpoint instead of a touchpad)- I'm assuming that MLs lurk under this keyboard's caps:

(http://www.aaatesters.com/92019891.jpg)

But some of them have higher profile keys, like the PAC-60 and PAC-64.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/4490387966_639eb83863_o.jpg)

Hey, is that a touchpoint lurking over there in a really inconvenient corner of the keyboard?  Looks like it.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4489744087_8f56e3fba9_o.jpg)


Here's (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dolch-Pac-65-Network-Sniffer-and-Pod-Bundle_W0QQitemZ320466101153QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Analyzers) one on eBay with the higher profile keycaps.  (In fact, it's the one pictured above.)

So it looks like Dolch switched from blue MXs to MLs partway through the Pac-65 run- I think if they have a two-tone grey keyboard, they use blue MXs, and if they have black keys they'll have MLs.  And it looks like Flexpacs all have MLs (at least all the pictures I've seen look like low-profile caps), despite having the two-tone grey color scheme.  That's what it looks like to me at least, from piktars on teh interwebs...

However, take all this with a big grain of salt- I'm making an awful lot of assumptions based on not much information.  Don't blame me if you snag one of these and it doesn't have the switches you want.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 04 April 2010, 18:19:43
Quote from: ch_123;169466
you'd be pretty mad to put anything more than Windows 3.11 on that thing


Me? mad? Bwah ha ha ha!

His Unholy Madness remembers that in 1995 Win95 ran OK on my first build, an AMD 486DX100 with 8MB RAM. Granted, this Dolch is only a 486DX66 MHz, but I'm still planning to do the Win95 thing as soon as I get an optical drive hooked up. Where'd my ISA Adaptec 1495 get to?

Quote from: ch_123;169466
Does the thing even have a colour screen?


Yeah, it does! I was surprised to read the Dolch PAC 60 has a LCD, not a CRT. Color was a bonus round. I can't figure the resolution from DOS, though. Amazing what I remember.
Code: [Select]
[LIST]
[*]dir /w /p
[*]memmaker (won't run because QEMM is installed)
[*]mem /c
[*]dosshell (not installed, boo hoo)
[/LIST]

I hope to get Magic the Gathering and Elite Frontiers running again. They won't work in a VM, and my VMware colleagues never understood why.

--
That How-low-can-you-go website with an 8 MHz Pentium FSB running WinXP was wild.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: MarkWilliamson on Sun, 04 April 2010, 18:35:12
Quote from: ricercar;169543

I hope to get Magic the Gathering and Elite Frontiers running again. They won't work in a VM, and my VMware colleagues never understood why.


Have you tried using other virtualizers / emulators?  Especially if you're trying to run old DOS games I'm not surprised if you're tickling odd behaviour of VMware, for instance.  Qemu, VirtualBox, DosBox and JPC are all free and open source, so you can try them out at no cost.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Sun, 04 April 2010, 19:07:45
Nonmouse-

Yes, from everything I've found this is the one to get:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/4490387966_639eb83863_o.jpg)

That is essentially a cherry G80-1800 board. You don't want to pick up anything that looks low profile or has a trackpad built in.

This is just based on a little research though, I'm sure at this point ricercar knows more than the rest of us about which one to pick up.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 04 April 2010, 22:31:15
Nice find ricercar.  Would you be able to post a few pics?  In particular i was interested in if you can slant the keyboard at all, or is it always laying totally flat?  Also what does the cable look like, is it coiled?

This is a sweet formfactor keyboard.  It's like my desko without the huge card swiper.

Has nice sweet colored doubleshot keys too.  It's a great KB from what I can see - probably PCB mounted too.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 05 April 2010, 03:11:25
Looks like it got relisted without the keyboard.  Did someone buy just the keyboard off of the seller?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 06 April 2010, 20:23:50
My PAC 60 Cherry blue board has a Cherry GREEN under the space bar. Photos later tonight after my little monsters are in bed.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Nonmouse on Tue, 06 April 2010, 20:29:43
Quote from: ricercar;170232
My PAC 60 Cherry blue board has a Cherry GREEN under the space bar. Photos later tonight after my little monsters are in bed.


Innit what it should (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards#Space+bar+types) have?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 April 2010, 00:54:44
Cherry blues with a green under the space bar. This is the only Cherry green I own.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8949&stc=1&d=1270619313)

The keyboard has feet to allow a raised position.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8950&stc=1&d=1270619313)

My keyboard cable is straight. This is NOT the one that shipped with the unit. I received my PAC 60 with no cables.

Inside there's a 486 motherboard with six ISA VL bus slots.

I borked the IDE connection while rummaging around inside and get an unbootable IDE controller error now. I expect this is merely an IDE cable inversion or one end was unplugged.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: salcan on Wed, 07 April 2010, 08:40:41
ricer- so that's a pac 60 board that outputs to ps2? Does it have any cursor controls on it? Those seem like the best way to tell them part from one another.

I believe what you have there is essentially a G80-1813HFU
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 08:52:49
ricercar: I won't tell you what you did wrong, but I will tell you I'm disappointed.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:17:03
Hey, lighten up. I have it all working now. These ancient IDE cables aren't keyed with either a missing pin or a tab. It's easy to invert one end.

Yes, there's a normal PS/2 port on the keyboard. Yes it has cursor controls.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8954&stc=1&d=1270657487)

Was there a PAC 60 picture anyone wanted that hasn't appeared yet?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:20:39
Quote from: ricercar;170340
Hey, lighten up. I have it all working now. These ancient IDE cables aren't keyed with either a missing pin or a tab. It's easy to invert one end.


Not that, anyone can do that.

I mean what was addressed recently (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=168923&postcount=10).
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:27:54
What's so wrong with "DB15" for HD-D-sub 15? It's like resisting "ain't". Common use defines language, not the dictionary.

((Gods, I hated typing that. Seems I'll go to any length to play devil's advocate.))
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:35:23
I go with DE15HD but that's supposedly not right...forget where I read that one however.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: elbowglue on Thu, 08 April 2010, 04:22:58
Who won this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110513315184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2723wt_965
Seller had offered me $45 + $29.99 shipping to california for the keyboard and cable alone.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 11 May 2010, 06:33:19
Does anyone know if the Dolch's PSU can run on 230V? I was thinking of getting one from the US, but want to make sure I don't need a transformer for it.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:26:27
Quote from: ch_123;180920
Does anyone know if the Dolch's PSU can run on 230V?

Yes. THey do. Mine says

Quote from: Dolch PAC 60
Power 100-240V 50/60 Hz 5A


ooh, cool. The Dolch internal 7" color LCD has a ribbon connector for a VGA input. I can use it as an external display.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:27:29
Nice.

I've seen some good auctions around, might get one.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:32:49
It's nearly no gamble. 3 out of 3 I've dealt with have Cherry blues.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:34:04
That would suck to be the one who gets stuck with some MYs.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:34:33
Quote from: ricercar;181266
It's nearly no gamble. 3 out of 3 I've dealt with have Cherry blues.


This was a -61. Does this affect my odds?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 11 May 2010, 16:56:43
I've seen PAC 40 and PAC 60. IIRC the 61 was on eBay recently, explicitly with blues.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 11:13:46
So, these keyboards are PS?2 compatible, right?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 12 May 2010, 15:33:33
Straight outta compton:
Two dolch's, pac 64, pac 61 probably both have cherry blue keyboards.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 17:28:55
Incidentally folks, stay away from Dolch auctions on eBay for the next few days please, I actually want to have a full unit, and not just rape it for some keycaps like some around here would =)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 17:52:47
Quote from: ch_123;181616
Incidentally folks, stay away from Dolch auctions on eBay for the next few days please, I actually want to have a full unit, and not just rape it for some keycaps like some around here would =)


I'd like a whole unit too...it's like a Compaq Portable but better.

Shame the shipping alone is murder on these things (yeah, like I'm one to talk).
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 12 May 2010, 18:10:11
I have a Dolch PAC 60 WITHOUT the keyboard for the price of shipping. 486 packet sniffer, 7" or 8" color LCD. Send PM.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 18:13:51
Would prefer the whole package tbh. And one of the later ones with the CD drive integrated.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:39:51
It would be fun to try loading Windows 7 on my Gateway 2000 with its 200Mhz Pentium and 64MB of RAM along with that 4 MB Voodoo card.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:46:11
I ran XP on a 400MHz Pentium II for quite some time...
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:49:19
Quote from: ch_123;181675
I ran XP on a 400MHz Pentium II for quite some time...

I ran it on a P2 350 with 128MB of RAM.

Eventually supplied that system with a Radeon 7000.

Note to self: remember never to try mixing Radeon 7000 and ASUS P2B-F again.

I've also run WinFLP on a K6-2 266...or is that just a K6? I dunno. Gave that sucker 128MB of RAM too. Nothing can counteract a 66MHz FSB, though.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:51:36
I had 64MB... I remember getting a 2.2GHz P4 with 512MB RAM sometime after, and noting that the latter could power up, log in, and shut down faster than the Pentium II machine could get to the login screen from cold boot.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:53:07
Quote from: ch_123;181678
I had 64MB... I remember getting a 2.2GHz P4 with 512MB RAM sometime after, and noting that the latter could power up, log in, and shut down faster than the Pentium II machine could get to the login screen from cold boot.


That doesn't sound right...well, 64MB...

Actually, on 64MB, that sounds about right.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 12 May 2010, 20:13:38
Quote from: microsoft windows;181671
It would be fun to try loading Windows 7 on my Gateway 2000 with its 200Mhz Pentium and 64MB of RAM along with that 4 MB Voodoo card.


I tried playing Rayman 3 on my 300PL once, it crashed obviously: I expect the same of windows 7 on an old system.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 13 May 2010, 05:53:31
There's one going pretty soon... US only

Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200468358275)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 May 2010, 08:15:07
I ran XP on my abacus... *****es.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Nonmouse on Thu, 13 May 2010, 10:32:59
Quote from: itlnstln;181874
I ran XP on my abacus... *****es.


Actually this is theoretically possible (http://www.binaryabacus.com/)- but you'd have to add a lot of extra memory, and boot time would be pretty laggy...

(http://www.binaryabacus.com/square_root_of_one_half.gif)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 14 May 2010, 18:45:38
I now have two Dolch PACs (with Blue Cherry keyboards) on the way to me.

(http://socal.mavin.com/pictures/aa/Dolch_lot_1_1.jpg)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: elbowglue on Fri, 21 May 2010, 20:30:25
Here's another one on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dolch-PAC-63C-Network-General-Sniffer-/290435771305?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f522ba9
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: J888www on Sat, 22 May 2010, 09:12:40
Quote from: elbowglue;185568
Here's another one on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dolch-PAC-63C-Network-General-Sniffer-/290435771305?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f522ba9


This unit have issues which may/may not be repaired, but the good thing is that the seller confirmed he is willing to ship only the KBD, else shipping cost will be quite hefty.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 22 May 2010, 09:14:32
Quote from: J888www;185694
This unit have issues which may/may not be repaired


Quote
The unit powers up and shows a "non-system disk error"


In other words, the "The seller is an idiot" error.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 22 May 2010, 12:03:05
The sad thing is that there are people who want the whole deal who are in risk of having the keyboards poached off them. This is different to other keyboards because the keyboard is an intrinsic part of the Dolch (it doubles as the screen's cover) and thus buying a Dolch without the keyboard is sort of like buying a laptop with the keypad and touchpad ripped out.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Nonmouse on Sat, 22 May 2010, 12:20:21
They use a standard form factor motherboard, don't they?  Seems like it should be (relatively) easy to upgrade them to a modern system...
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 22 May 2010, 19:49:49
I bought a Dolche board from Ricercar and LOVE IT.  This is what Cherry Blues should feel like. It's been my main driver at home since I got it from him.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 22 May 2010, 20:37:18
I got a HeadStart Cherry blue board, and the switches all need cleaning before they will click.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 22 May 2010, 22:49:00
Ricercar, your avatars keep getting better and better.  Bummer about that HeadStart.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 23 May 2010, 15:06:09
Quote from: didjamatic;185902
Ricercar, your avatars keep getting better and better.  Bummer about that HeadStart.


Thanks.

I'm not giving up on the HeadStart. I could get all pissy or I can fix it. Or both. Fixing it without wondering 'what if' seems like the funnest path.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 25 June 2010, 07:05:47
I (finally) made a cable to connect my Dolch keyboard with 4P4C ("RJ") connector to PS/2 and I'm typing away at it now. The cable is connected to the PCB inside the case with a connector, so you don't have to solder anything, just replace the cable. However, I did have to widen the hole to fit my new cable. The 4P4C pin order is: GND, +5V, data, clock.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 05:52:17
From left to right or what?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:18:32
Quote from: ch_123;196625
From left to right or what?
According to the standard convention for numbering pins on xPxC/RJ-connectors. Allow me to quote a good explanation on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RJ11):
Quote
Holding the connector in your hand tab side down with the cable opening toward you, the pins are numbered [1-4], left to right.[...]
Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/RJ14-pinout.png)

BTW, when you reassemble the case, be mindful that there are two sizes of case screws. The short ones go in the front and the long ones go in the back. If you use a long one in the front, it might penetrate to far and you will get a plastic nub below the keys ...
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:20:51
Cool. Now I'll be able to make a PS/2 adapter for my keyboards.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Thu, 12 August 2010, 01:01:51
I got my dolch PAC 60 today and it seems great except a "hard drive controller failed" message on boot. Boots to floppy fine, and the hard drive specs are still in CMOS. Not sure how to proceed, but it does seem possible someone opened it up, poked around to see what parts might be stripped from it, decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and reconnected the IDE cable from the HDD to the controller backwards since the older connectors allow that.

The only problem is that I don't know which orientation is "correct" without a tab, etc. I haven't had to swap one from this era to my knowlege, or if I did I got lucky and always put them back correctly. ;).  Please advise.

I've also been considering rebuilding it with an atom or similar mb, a nice little rig to be my equivalent if a laptop (ac power required, however unless I delve into laptop psu and batteries which doesn't really seem worth it to me).

Maybe make a cutout for a DVD-Rom, add big HD, a wireless NIC and go to town. ;)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Sun, 15 August 2010, 17:15:47
Quote from: Findecanor;196218
I (finally) made a cable to connect my Dolch keyboard with 4P4C ("RJ") connector to PS/2 and I'm typing away at it now. The cable is connected to the PCB inside the case with a connector, so you don't have to solder anything, just replace the cable. However, I did have to widen the hole to fit my new cable. The 4P4C pin order is: GND, +5V, data, clock.

Ok, I'm wanting to make a cable with female rj-11 to male ps/2 (6-pin mini din to you dorks) so that I can plug the dolch keyboard into other systems with ps/2 ports, but not change the cable out at all so that it's still in factory condition and will work in conjunction with the PAC 60 without even opening the case and changing cables.  

I have a pile of PS/2 extensions, and an old 4 prong to RJ-11 female adapter housing.

(http://www.electronicplus.com/images/products/BT-7.jpg) <- don't use these, the jack is not compatible with Dolch's RJ-11 connector.

(http://www.xkeys.com/pigraphics/grdevelop/pinoutsPS2.gif)

(http://pinouts.ru/connectors/rj11f.gif)

I realize my adapter + cable might be UGLY, but it should work perfectly electronically, and has the advantage of being able to click the rj-11 male directly into a real jack.  

I know that this should be relatively simple, but my brain starts to hurt when I try to map this stuff out in my head, so I wanted someone here that understands findecanor's pinout to explain which pins need to connect to which at each stage of my plan to make it work...

I've got a multimeter and can test continuity (I have already numbered the prongs on the adapter box 1-4)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Sun, 15 August 2010, 19:00:01
Nevermind, I'm pretty sure I got it.  I got lucky and when I opened up that little adapter box, the RJ-11 leads ran to screw posts which corresponded with the prongs.  There was a blank for another hole in the back of the housing, so I drilled it out, and ran my leads from the PS/2 extension into the housing.  Screwed the corresponding ps/2 lead to the post with the RJ-11 leads.  Black-taped around the entire housing except the RJ-11 jack, and it's all ready to go!  Time to reboot and test this mutha out.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Sun, 15 August 2010, 20:33:47
Findecanor, you mf-er...  were you going left to right on the male plug, or the female jack???  I'm almost positive my stuff is all inverted.  Continuity checks out as per the diagrams I posted above (with the RJ-11 MALE PLUG labeled 1-4 left to right.)  If you gave the pinout of the FEMALE JACK then I'm screwed, but I'm not rewiring it until I'm sure which is correct.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Sun, 15 August 2010, 23:12:53
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12158&stc=1&d=1281931911)

This is what I take from consultation with dfj, kishy, and multiple readings of findecanor's post.  Anyone with other interpretations, please let me know before I kill my ps/2 bus or my keyboard :D

Edit: By the way, stay away from that adapter I posted above.  It has 4 pins, but the female jack is too large for the RJ-11 that comes on the Dolch.  It just wiggles around with no contact, so I tossed it.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 16 August 2010, 08:17:24
Quote from: Oqsy;212961
Findecanor, you mf-er...

I have a healthy sex life. How about you?

Quote from: Oqsy;212961
were you going left to right on the male plug, or the female jack???

Because I modified a cable, I put a new male plug on it:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12162&stc=1&d=1281967348)
pin 1: GND,
pin 2: +5V
pin 3: data
pin 4: clock

(Picture copied from Wikipedia)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 16 August 2010, 12:18:56
Thanks findecanor, that answers everything. Oh and for everyone's general knowledge, these connectors are RJ-22, *not* RJ-11.  RJ-22 is the 4 pin "handset" cable connector. A lot of phones with the coiled handset cables use RJ-22, but some use RJ-11. The two are not physically compatible, so use caution.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 16 August 2010, 19:47:24
This seems to confirm my diagram, even though the plug pictured is from "behind", the pin outs seem copacetic.  Re-splicing!
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 16 August 2010, 21:37:40
Great contributions guys.  Dolch boards kick friggin butt, the right Ctrl+Alt being close together on these types of G80-1800 layouts let you use your thumb to do Ctrl+Alt in 1 press, and middle finger hits del just right.  This was an issue I had early on with 1800 layouts because I couldn't 1 hand ctrl+alt+del but then I realized with the non-win-key models like the Dolch boards, you can do it even easier.  Ctrl+alt+ins is just as easy.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 16 August 2010, 21:50:58
Yep, mine is now up and running!  I'm typing on it now.  It's a really nice feeling board.  I love the layout, the colors, the switches, the double shot key caps, and even the scooped F and J.  This is one of my finer moments in vintage gear hoarding ;)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Sun, 22 August 2010, 01:22:22
Removed everything but LCD and mainboard to see how impossible a rebuild would be. The board is 21cm x 33cm. I have no idea if it's a standard if any kind. I'm mostly worried about connecting the LCD and making sure psu and exp cards will line up correctly. Any suggestions?

Edit: According to the chart at http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_form_factor?wasRedirected=true it's a baby-at board. That probably won't help me find a suitable replacement, but it's nice to know.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Half-Saint on Mon, 23 August 2010, 01:35:42
You could modify the case and just throw a mini-ITX board in there?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 24 August 2010, 18:40:49
half-saint: i *could*, but preserving as much of the original case is part of the goal.  kishy and I have been brainstorming on this for a few days, and all solutions have their drawbacks.

One thing to note is that the LCD runs off of an ISA graphics card that *most likely* has a lot of the LCD functionality built into the card instead of the LCD assembly itself (like most modern LCDs)  This means that to keep the LCD currently installed in the mix, I'd have to either:

1. find a suitable card for keeping it running (one small and one large ribbon cable carrying the signals) that would work on a newer form factor motherboard that would fit the case.

2. keep the ISA card and find a motherboard that will accept the ISA gfx card

3. abandon the existing LCD, and drop an extra $200 or more on a replacement for one that already works perfectly just to get around the ISA card.

There have been lots of theories and suggestions tossed around (join us on #geekhack at chat.freenode.net on your irc client, or just click the link in the very top right of this page for the webchat), and I haven't committed totally to any of them.  

I will most likely start a new thread on this topic to get more input as I feel like there may be some other answers out there that I haven't considered.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 24 August 2010, 22:41:37
I found this:  http://www.ibasetechnology.net/mb894.html which looks promising...  I would have to do some creative cable routing / exp. slot blank drilling to make the i/o stuff work out.  That or drill out some sections of the case for them which was against the plan to begin with.  

Anyway, I'm sure the idea of modernizing this box won't come back to bite me in the AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!
(http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2007/11-12/dogparksacjr_400.jpg)

edit: nevermind, silly mistake, the board above is 24.4x24.4cm, and the smaller dimension of this case is 21.9cm.  Dagnabit.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Wed, 25 August 2010, 17:57:04
To keep this thread from derailing into my personal build thread, I've started a new one here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11336) specific to the issues of rebuilding the DOLCH PAC 60 as a portable modern pc.  Direct all replies to that discussion there please, so this discussion can revert back to the keyboard that comes with the DOLCH PAC sniffers and the cherry blue goodness inside :D
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: gosper on Wed, 08 September 2010, 17:13:35
A little off topic here but has anyone been able to get any flavors of linux to boot on any DOLCH PAC models?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 08 September 2010, 17:27:49
I haven't tried it yet. Bear in mind that the screen is controlled by a custom PCI card. That said, Windows 2000 picked it up out of the box when I installed it, so the chipset could be common enough.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 30 October 2010, 00:03:39
Anyone have a RJ45 (Ethernet) pinout for a Dolch with trackpad?

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13236&stc=1&d=1288414100)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 31 March 2011, 17:49:32
Quote from: Findecanor;196218
made a cable... pin order is: GND, +5V, data, clock.

Works for me, too

Wired an "Airlink" Dolch clone Cherry blue keyboard RJ11 to PS2. The wire colors were counter-intuitive.

+5 = Black
GND = White
Data = Yellow
Clock = Red
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: wanabe on Thu, 31 March 2011, 17:56:25
I need to do this.  are you guys clipping the connector and soldering a ps2 connector, or making some sort of adapter to maintain the original rj connector
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 31 March 2011, 18:10:30
I removed the RJ11 wiring entirely, and soldered an old model M cable to the 'dolch' PCB.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: Oqsy on Thu, 31 March 2011, 23:54:29
I made a new, second cable for mine.  I kept the original cable for use with the dolch unit, and wired up another one to a hacked up extension ps/2 cable with simple splices.  The keyboard had a female jack for the rj connector inside the case, so swapping cables is quick and easy.
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: wanabe on Fri, 01 April 2011, 00:22:57
interesting...i wish i could check it out, but i cant figure out how to crack it open.  can anyone explain how to open a dolch keyboard?
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: wanabe on Fri, 01 April 2011, 12:12:56
sweet - thanks!
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 01 April 2011, 22:21:48
Kishy, you're Super Awesome Man, earning a gold star for the day. Your colors are now proven accurate/successful on a third Dolch keyboard with trackpad.

(http://kishy.dyndns.org/misc/pinout.png)
Title: DOLCH PAC-6x sniffers and Cherry blues?
Post by: hasu on Wed, 22 February 2012, 19:45:24
Kishy, Thanks for the great info.

I could make my adapter for PAC 64 due to your nice pic of pinouts.
(http://i.imgur.com/7joESm.jpg) (http://imgur.com/7joES.jpg)