geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: sixty on Sat, 06 March 2010, 01:37:26
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Unsure how we missed this, since it was already announced about a week ago! I guess we are once again slacking with keeping up with the asian market.
(http://grab.by/2S04)
(http://grab.by/2S0l)
Starting in early March, Leopold will begin to offer new "low-noise" versions of the existing Realforce 87U models. These will be identical to the normal Realforce 87U models besides the fact that they will be even quieter. This is achieved by internal changes to the rubber dome. Diatec has announced that they will also carry a Japanese and English version of the new "low-noise" line soon. Depending on the success the low-noise line may be extended to other Realforce models.
Silent:
Normal:
Via Leopold
(http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/list.php&ca_id=1040)
From what I can tell from first reports so far it is said that the feeling is slightly different and the keys feel more light. I guess Topre finally got rid of their trademark "thock" sounds and has now finally managed to come up with the true $250 default rubber dome! Congratulations.
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Hmm, I was wondering if I should pick up a RealForce. Now I'll have to go try one out.
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Who else is wondering just how good an idea this thing really is?
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I know people who really would like a quiet keyboard, but have found the quiet offerings to be rather poor. This sounds like a great product for them. I however love the sound of the keys on the 87u and HHK boards.
That earlier quote about the rubber dome having been altered sounds odd to me. I don't think the rubber domes contribute to the "noise" making at all. I think all the noise comes from the plastic independant sliding stem. And the majority of the noise seems to come from the rebound. So I would think that a solution similar to what they did on the old AEKII boards (dampened sliders) would be more ideal. Hmm... unless the dome was "attached" to the underside of the keystem.
The diagram (if new) is rather confusing to me. There seems to be yet another rubber dome surrounding the inner normal-ish dome. Either way the illustration is deceptive yes/no?
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I Initially read the post title as "Low Line Noise" and got severely confused for a moment.
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the land of the silent mouse (http://www.geekstuff4u.com/accessories/desktop/silent-mouse-ex.html).
thanks...this is something i could use. i'll add this to my wishlist. later when i'm about to buy i will find out if this is optical or laser and if i can use it for gaming. i know it can't beat the mx518 but the silent feature is cool & useful.
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I kind of like the thocking :( Makes me feel like I'm getting to work. Chunka-chunka-chunk
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Actually, I'm glad to see Topre doing SOME innovation other than just changing the colors of the keys.
Throw in a superfluous slider and spring in so that it doesn't look like a rubber dome keyboard. Prove lal wrong an' all.
Amusing anecdote time - During the 80s, the British computer manufacturer Amstrad released a machine that had some nasty defect in the first batch that caused the machines to crash all the time. The public came to believe that it was caused by the lack of fan in the machine. In fact, the system had been designed in such a way that it really didn't need a fan, and the problem was completely unrelated to cooling. But when the problem was fixed, people were still suspicious of the design because they still thought that the lack of a fan was to blame. So they came out with a later revision of the machine that had a large, noisy fan bolted on to the side of it that did absolutely nothing, but caused sales to pick up dramatically.
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what PC was this??? the Mega PC?
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Unfortunately I don't know which model it was. I remember reading that they did it in a book, but the book didn't state which model they were talking about.
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ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames :P
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ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames :P
I had a Super Pet SP9000 years ago but wife forced me to give it away before a move, :-( Can't say that I really miss it but it's shame what fate probably befell it.
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Want to try! Hopefully some white ones will be imported into the US.
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ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames :P
All you need for that is run the HCF instruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire).
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ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames :P
All you need for that is run the HCF instruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire).
I think that bursting into flames was an urban legend, but I'm really not sure as this was a long time ago. There were "killer pokes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_poke) for various computers. The PET one resulted from a hardware revision which changed the effect of doing a POKE to a memory location with a PEEK masked with some value, an unofficial way to speed up screen updates by the video chip. After the revision, the display ran faster without this step but that memory location was now mapped to different hardware. Now the POKE command caused the screen to warp after a few lines and not display the rest of the screen and the keyboard to become unresponsive. Allegedly letting the PET run like this would cause the video chip to accelerate to the point that it would overheat and destroy itself although I'm not sure this is true or yet another urban legand. Powering the PET off and back on cleared the condition.
There are other examples of manipulating hardware via memory mapped hardware controller registers for performance improvement or novelty. Examples I recall with regard to Commodore computers include speeding up loading from tape and disk drives. I also remember a program that vibrated the disk drive head causing a metal band to vibrate such that it played "Daisy Bell". This is the song which the HAL 9000 computer sang as it was deactivated in "2001: A Space Odyssey".
Geez, the unless info I have in my head, while stuff I need to remember just runs out my ears onto the floor, :sad:
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There was a similar tale of a rogue program that could destroy MZ-80K computers.
Of course the myth is now fact. Any fool can destroy a CPU by overclocking.
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There was a similar tale of a rogue program that could destroy MZ-80K computers.
Of course the myth is now fact. Any fool can destroy a CPU by overclocking.
True enough. I found some interesting links on that Wikipedia killer poke page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_poke), some other CPU vulnerabilities I'd never heard of, such as the Intel f00f bug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F00f) and the Cyrix coma bug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrix_coma_bug). Clearly there is more of this type if thing out there than I knew of.
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back to the new "quiet" Topre kb... the only thing they have to do to make mine quiet is fix the damn rattling spacebar -- that alone accounts for about 50% of the noise when typing.
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Okay, finally most mysteries are solved.
ScarFace has received a prototype sample of the keyboard and posted up really awesome pictures of everything, including very detailed macro pictures of the switches. Since Naver does not easily allow me to copy pics check out his full article (in Korean language):
http://cafe.naver.com/sfkey.cafe?iframe_url=/ArticleRead.nhn%3Farticleid=396
It appears like the domes are indeed unchanged and the plunger is being given a softer landing with the aid of a foam ring. Very similar to that ring-o mod or nanu's rubber foam mod.
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Okay, finally most mysteries are solved.
ScarFace has received a prototype sample of the keyboard and posted up really awesome pictures of everything, including very detailed macro pictures of the switches. Since Naver does not easily allow me to copy pics check out his full article (in Korean language):
http://cafe.naver.com/sfkey.cafe?iframe_url=/ArticleRead.nhn%3Farticleid=396
It appears like the domes are indeed unchanged and the plunger is being given a softer landing with the aid of a foam ring. Very similar to that ring-o mod or nanu's rubber foam mod.
that guy take awesome pictures. I guess he has rightclicking disabled and the page in some sort of iframe so it's tough to google translate.
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Christ, how much more quiet could it possibly be? Other than my G80-3000, it's the quietest 'board I own. Really, how quiet does your workspace have to be, or how anal do you have to be where Topre switches are too loud?
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I sense they'll declare it their new top-of-the-line board and sell it at $300+. Everybody serious about typing will have to get one. :madgrin:
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I really love me some thocks, although for some reason I still feel compelled to try this mod. I've had many fond years with my Northgate and I have loved it very much, and in some ways I think the audible click suited me better back then, it always got attention at the LANs. But now I'm all about the Topres, no going back.
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So is the main mod the rubber band looking foam piece that prevents noise from plastic on plastic upon key "topping out?" It seems it would reduce travel however it seems it would prevent the first 1mm of travel from occuring, as opposed to the last 1mm of travel in the "dental bands" method on brown cherries. This would make the topre actuate even closer to the top of the switch. Well, it would make the starting position closer to the actuation point and take the mm's off the top.
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... The problem though with the way Topre did it is it's kinda half assed. They are reducing the key travel - eyeballing it it's close to one mm....
So is the main mod the rubber band looking foam piece that prevents noise from plastic on plastic upon key "topping out?" It seems it would reduce travel however it seems it would prevent the first 1mm of travel from occuring.....
When I was looking at the photos it seemed as if the original plastic base/stopper was actually thicker than the new one. This would account for the added thickness of the foam ring, thus making the key travel the same on the new version, or atleast a non issue.
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The Japanese don't like to do firmware changes.[/youtube]
It really scares me that there are people driving cars who don't know that the ignition switch can cut the engine off. (Yes, without locking the steering up.)
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It really scares me that there are people driving cars who don't know that the ignition switch can cut the engine off. (Yes, without locking the steering up.)
I think the problem is that the computer locks out the ability to shut off the engine in those vehicles while at speed...remember hearing someone mention that. From what I've seen of the very recent Prius-highway-California-whatever incident it took many repeated attempts to shut off the engine before the car responded.
Similarly, the transmission cannot be geared down forcefully by pushing it into one of the low ranges because the computer locks out that functionality once you're past a safe RPM and speed for that range (this is true for all modern vehicles with electronically controlled automatic transmissions, so just about everything made after 1995 and many vehicles prior as well).
Toyota designed the safest car in the world, if you happen to be the engine. You'll never be allowed to rev too high.
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Damn computers.
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Car engineers should take a look at the industrial machinery in their factories for inspiration. They'll find out that each machine has big red buttons all over, which bypass any electronics and will stop the engine no matter what.
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How unnerving would that be; having an "Emergency Shutdown" in your car? It would appear that the company isn't confident in their programmers, so they put an "Abort Mission" button just in case all Hell breaks loose. A good idea in general, but not good idea for sales.
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It isn't a new problem (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Popular_Science_Dec_1918_p23_-_Ship_Emergency_Steam_Cutoff_Valves.JPG).
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They could paint them green and call them eco button.
The red buttons on industrial machinery aren't there cause the marketing guys like them. And they aren't hard-wired cause engineers like costly redundant circuits. They're there cause they're mandatory (at least in Europe) and noone gives a rat's ass about manufacturers' opinion on them.
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Lol. Check this. The guy that invented Ctrl-Alt-Del.
The look on Bill Gates' face was priceless when he said "I may have invented it, but Bill made it famous."
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The guy that invented Ctrl-Alt-Del
was probably in partnership with the guy making these...
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The topre switches have been nice and quiet with me. Will the quiet ones wear out after a while and ends up being as loud from the play of each key? =/
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I think the problem is that the computer locks out the ability to shut off the engine in those vehicles while at speed...remember hearing someone mention that. From what I've seen of the very recent Prius-highway-California-whatever incident it took many repeated attempts to shut off the engine before the car responded.
To be specific, in Toyotas with a push-button ignition, you have to hold the button for 3.3 seconds before it will respond. Just like ATX, but people may not know that.
With a key ignition, I don't believe there's a single car that allows the ECU to still receive power with the key anywhere but on or start. And, on EFI, removing power from the ECU kills the PWM signal to the fuel injectors (meaning they don't fire) as well as the signals to the coils, meaning they don't fire, so you don't get fuel or spark. Need compressed air, fuel, and spark for a gasoline engine to run, take away either of them, and things stop.
However, the reason for not allowing the push-button ignition to shut off the car with just a tap, ironically, was to prevent lawsuits. They didn't want someone to accidentally bump the button, causing engine power to go away when the driver least expected it.
Similarly, the transmission cannot be geared down forcefully by pushing it into one of the low ranges because the computer locks out that functionality once you're past a safe RPM and speed for that range (this is true for all modern vehicles with electronically controlled automatic transmissions, so just about everything made after 1995 and many vehicles prior as well).
Toyota designed the safest car in the world, if you happen to be the engine. You'll never be allowed to rev too high.
And on Toyotas, they don't even allow entering neutral with over 50% throttle, to prevent an overrev that the ECU can't react to in time.
Myself, I'll just stick to my car with key ignition and a manual transmission. ;)
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In case you need to google those acronyms too:
ATX: Advanced Technology Extended
ECU: Electronic Control Unit
EFI: Electronic Fuel Injection
PWM: Pulse Width Modulation
And on Toyotas, they don't even allow entering neutral with over 50% throttle, to prevent an overrev that the ECU can't react to in time.
Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_03lbr-Jw).
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Although the Prius has a non-conventional drivetrain. The reports I've heard about the Toyotas not going into neutral are in those with conventional, torque converter and planetary gear, stuck on the end of an internal combustion engine, no electric motor drivetrains.
Myself, it's irrelevant to me. The car I drive (not a Toyota,) the only thing that can keep me from entering neutral is mechanical failure inside the transmission (not even shifter failure, as the shifter's a rod that goes straight into the transmission.) Even if that happens, I have the clutch pedal. Even if *THAT* happens, the key will cut all electrical power to the fuel delivery and ignition systems.
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If you are picky about sounds you might want to check this. The Realforce sounded more solid to me but listen for yourself. I'm pretty sure that is the older model Realforce.
HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:
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HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:
that's exactly what i took from that video as well. Is this generally the case?
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HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:
I think that's a great way to put it.
I don't really think that vid sounds like those keyboards though. The HHKB sounds deeper in person, and indeed has a "thock" to it, especially certain keys. The Realforce sounds a bit more "thacky" and has a slight rattle sound to them.
Neither of the keyboards sound in person as cheap/bad as they do in that vid. In part it's the recording, but I'm sure it's mostly the very frantic slapping of the keys. I would not go by the sounds in that vid unfortunately (errr... wait I mean fortunately)
=)
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I agree with clickclack, I don't think that vid really captured the true sound of the 'boards. The vid makes them much higher-pitched than they are in person. That said, if you do own at least one of them, you can get the general idea.
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The sound was so badly out of sync when I played it, it was hard to tell which sound was from which keyboard. But I worked out that the Realforce had the deeper tone and should be the 'thocky' one, the higher-pitched HHKB is 'thacky' to me.
My ones sound completely different. I use them on grip-mat (shelf-liner) with the feet retracted. Makes them sound even more quiet and classy. Maybe too quiet for those who enjoy the sound.
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The sound was so badly out of sync when I played it, it was hard to tell which sound was from which keyboard. But I worked out that the Realforce had the deeper tone and should be the 'thocky' one, the higher-pitched HHKB is 'thacky' to me.
My ones sound completely different. I use them on grip-mat (shelf-liner) with the feet retracted. Makes them sound even more quiet and classy. Maybe too quiet for those who enjoy the sound.
I don't have either so just going by the video. Although it is out of sync here as well, the HHKB spacebar is the first key pressed (and pressed and pressed) and that is the one that sounds 'thocky' to me. Although it may not be truly representative of the keyboards, I really have know way of knowing. I just got my first cherry brown keyboard, an MX11800 from neptunebadger. My initial impression is that most of the noise of typing on it is not from 'bottoming out' thacking when the keys rebound and 'top out' causing the caps to resonate. Not sure if there is anything to be done about that.
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Spacebars are supposed to be loud.
It's no fun typing otherwise.
I've never liked this "thocky" term. Must be an asian thing.
I thought it was an onomatopoeia thing. Try saying that 10 times really fast, :smile:.
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Not sure if this has been posted before but seems like it hasn't.
Low noise realforce 87 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QKqXaQw3BM)
vs
Normal noise realforce 87 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cpxVj1h3O8)
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I've never liked this "thocky" term. Must be an asian thing.
Perhaps this will make things clear, you Cantankerous Keyboard Critic... :tongue:
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Holy Thocky Keyboards Batman!!! Awesome graphic!
"Thock" mimics the sound of a Topre switch very well and it's short and easy to type so it sticks.
If it was easier to type "creek-kapow-boyoyoing" for buckling springs or "chink-a-pink-tiddlywink" for blue cherries, I'm sure those would be used often as well.
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Who else is wondering just how good an idea this thing really is?
Not me. I just got a standard Realforce and it's the lowest noise of all the boards I own. Since it is not a loud board to start with. Making it even less does not add value to me.
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Have they been released in other markets? I actually like the sound, lack thereof, of the new one. Probably an instant purchase for me if they become available. (nvm, just read the OP more carefully)
The o-ring type additions they use look more like a foam material. I wonder if something like that exists that will fit a cherry key, instead of the rubber/silicon ring mod.
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I'm definitely more interested in the low noise version. Typed, as I listen to the ribbit of my Filco's overzealous space bar. Given the 87U got pulled from Elite keyboards, making it harder (costlier) to get, I'm guessing getting the silent version is even more complicated.
How does one tell low noise model(s) apart from regular one? I did check the all things Topre first.
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Has a different model number.
That model number is?
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Hi there. Does - in light of these new low-noise Topres - anyone expect a new HHKB to be released?
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I think I'm gonna buy a tenkeyless Realforce topre, when they become avaiable at EK, just to try it. Judging by what people say about topre, they must be the holy grail of keyboards.
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Yea, Topre isn't for everyone, it is important to do your homework. For those who like smooth quiet and the quality, they are currently the cream of the crop.
I even suspect, that when all is said and done, I probably will still prefer the key press feel of PCB mounted cherries to the Topre, but it won't stop the Topre from becoming my daily driver, if I get one.
At least with the HHKB, someone can test drive the layout with the lite (or auto hot key, kinda), if they're worried they might hate it, though it still doesn't tell them much about the feel.
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The Topre feel is rather unimpressive. It's better than a rubber dome for sure, but the overall force is curve is still similar, and I prefer switches that increase in resistance over the key press more so than those that present the majority of the resistance closer the beginning.
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I love the Chinglish on the box on the first page.
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When I last mailed Topre about the possibility of Topre geekhack keys (more on that topic within a few weeks hopefully), I also asked about the low noise line. The kind support even made a graph for our wiki. Apparently the difference is about 30% less loud than the standard model:
REALFORCE SILENT KEYBOARDS
The most stimulated sounds for human auditory sense is frequency 2500 to 5000 Hz.The REALFORCE keyboard has different typing sounds among keys and each key have stimulated sounds within this frequencythat gives typist to uncomfortable sounds. Therefore, we tried to decrease this stimulated sound and achieved 30% reduction ofthe stimulated sounds adding new parts inside of key switch. Please refer the difference from the graph mentioned below:
(http://imgur.com/qGE4p.png)
[Specification]
Name: REALFORCE91UBK-S
Model No.: NG01BS
Switch system: Capacitive Key Switch
Switch life: 30 million times
Key No.: 91keys
Peak force: 30 g, 45g, 55gą15g
Travel length: 4.0mm
Color: Black
Printing: Razor Printing
So basically that foam ring and the other small rubber piece seem to do all the work. The plate and the rest of the switch construction remain the same. I bet those high spikes in the graph are the space bar.
Someone should add this to the wiki, I'm short of time right now.
Any other questions and Topre mysteries that we did not solve yet? I'll ask in my next mail. Might start by asking what Razor printing is.. I guess engraving+fill?
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When I last mailed Topre about the possibility of Topre geekhack keys (more on that topic within a few weeks hopefully), I also asked about the low noise line. The kind support even made a graph for our wiki. Apparently the difference is about 30% less loud than the standard model:
REALFORCE SILENT KEYBOARDS
The most stimulated sounds for human auditory sense is frequency 2500 to 5000 Hz.The REALFORCE keyboard has different typing sounds among keys and each key have stimulated sounds within this frequencythat gives typist to uncomfortable sounds. Therefore, we tried to decrease this stimulated sound and achieved 30% reduction ofthe stimulated sounds adding new parts inside of key switch. Please refer the difference from the graph mentioned below:
(http://imgur.com/qGE4p.png)
[Specification]
Name: REALFORCE91UBK-S
Model No.: NG01BS
Switch system: Capacitive Key Switch
Switch life: 30 million times
Key No.: 91keys
Peak force: 30 g, 45g, 55gą15g
Travel length: 4.0mm
Color: Black
Printing: Razor Printing
So basically that foam ring and the other small rubber piece seem to do all the work. The plate and the rest of the switch construction remain the same. I bet those high spikes in the graph are the space bar.
Someone should add this to the wiki, I'm short of time right now.
Any other questions and Topre mysteries that we did not solve yet? I'll ask in my next mail. Might start by asking what Razor printing is.. I guess engraving+fill?
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Switch life: 30 million times
O_O
first i've heard of this! thanks for asking :)
edit: "Razor", eh? XD
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Might start by asking what Razor printing is.. I guess engraving+fill?
My guess: 'Laser' translated to Japanese, then back to English.
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I wonder if they plan on releasing a silent 86u as well. I'm not a big fan of the 87u, the second windows key seems like it was just kind of thrown in there. Maybe I'm just being too picky.
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I know people who really would like a quiet keyboard, but have found the quiet offerings to be rather poor. This sounds like a great product for them. I however love the sound of the keys on the 87u and HHK boards.
That earlier quote about the rubber dome having been altered sounds odd to me. I don't think the rubber domes contribute to the "noise" making at all. I think all the noise comes from the plastic independant sliding stem. And the majority of the noise seems to come from the rebound. So I would think that a solution similar to what they did on the old AEKII boards (dampened sliders) would be more ideal. Hmm... unless the dome was "attached" to the underside of the keystem.
The diagram (if new) is rather confusing to me. There seems to be yet another rubber dome surrounding the inner normal-ish dome. Either way the illustration is deceptive yes/no?
I agree, I love the sound of the Topre. Normalising it makes me sad
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bump.
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Topre has a news release about plan of following products including low-noise 108. These are the first part of REALFORCE 10th anniversary project and will be available at beginning of April.
- REALFORCE 108UH-S(SA010S)
- Keytop set for 108(108keys per set)
- SA0100KT1: white
- SA0100KT2: sky-blue
- SA0100KT3: red
- SA0100KT4: yellow
- SA0100KT5: orange
This is news release by Topre in Japanese.
http://www.fs.topre.co.jp/news/20110304/info_0304.pdf
This is Japanese layout keyboard and is not taste for most of you including me. But we can look forward to next coming from Topre.
/* I like reuse of thread with proper subject. GHers consume too many threads :) */
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Thanks for the info.
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Hi there. Does - in light of these new low-noise Topres - anyone expect a new HHKB to be released?
Yes, I've been emailing PFU FUjitsu a few days ago and here is their answer
"Thank you for your inquiry regarding Happy Hacking Keyboard.
We are examining the adoption of a new key switch system.
It is undecided when to sell it.
...(blah bla blah about no plan to seel it to foreign countries out of Japan, but that was already the case :)"
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"Sofutotakutairufiringu"
It took me a good 10 seconds to sound that one out - Soft Tactile Feel - lol.
I read that PDF the other day too - laughed at 'REALFPRCE'
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What do you need to do in order to obtain one of these low-noise things? In tenkeyless, of course.
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You need a buying service, or a Korean buddy, so they can order it directly from Leopold.co.kr.
Of course you can always mod your current one, with o-rings, or dental bands.
However the silent model actuates earlier.
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So I did some digging, here are the model numbers fo 87U silent and regular versions
SE070S 87U Wwhite Silent (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/vshopu/2114-2005/)
SE170S 87UB Black Silent (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/vshopu/2103-0101/)
SE1700 87UB Black Regular (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/ap-zakka/0000-4580106575160/)
SE0700 is 87U White Regular (http://prw.kyodonews.jp/open/release.do?r=200903191790) (press release)
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anyone know where to get these or the 104u besides asia or when they coming to ek or soemthing?
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It sounds like... a rubber dome.
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Someone should put that in the topre wiki.
I would love to, just tell iMav to stop blocking my home IP.
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I will try, and hope I won't screw up the table format
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OK, I updated the wiki. Added:
SE070S and SE170S
release date 3/10
Japan shopping site rakuten availability, including realforce search link
Tenso buying service for rakuten shopping
noted benippon is no longer in service after the recent earthquake
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Thanks litster!