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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 01:00:19

Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 01:00:19: Hi all,

I'm new here to Geekhack but I've been lurking for a few weeks now. I found your site after reading Ars Technica review on the Das. You fellows seem to know a thing or two about keyboards. :tongue:

When I first got into mechanic keyboards a few year ago, I picked up a Model M on eBay. I like it but it needs a fairly heavy touch.

Also have a couple of Apple Enhanced kbs from the early 90s that I read somewhere were like the AEKII but in a smaller footprint. Not sure if that's true, maybe someone here knows. They're okay but I'm not real satisfied with them.

The question I have now is I'm going to need to type in around 300-400 handwritten pages and was wondering which keyboard you guys thought might be the best choice.

I was first leaning towards a Filco cherry blue but someone in the Mechanical Keyboard Guide at Overclock.net posted the same question and Manyak in his infinite wisdom recommended the Topre Realforce for just such an endeavor.

The more I thought about it, the Realforce seems to be the better choice. It's less noisy which unfortunately is something I have to consider and more importantly, it sounds like the Realforce will be more comfortable for long bouts of typing; less fatigue.

I plan on buying the Realforce the first of April, that is if Elitekeyboards gets the 87u back in stock. If not, I might get the 103ub but I really like the small footprint of the tenkeyless.

Oh, also I use a Mac. Any problems with the Realforce with the Mac? Can I reconfigure the windows keys to the command keys?

Sorry for such a long post, just like a little more info before dropping $250-300. Looking forward to your replies. Thanks in advance.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: Xede on Sun, 07 March 2010, 02:51:00: While I haven't tried MX Blue's, I would recommend a Realforce or HHKB Pro 2 over Filco just on the basis that the key texture is much nicer, kind of like velvet. I don't have a 45g 87u, but for typing I would prefer the lighter keys of the HHKB over my 55g 87u which I mainly use for gaming. So basically I would recommend the HHKB Pro 2 for typing. I would recommend the 87u but I haven't tried the alternative key weights which I have heard are nice.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 07 March 2010, 10:12:16: It seems that the filco with cherry browns is a good place to start for anyone new to keyboards.
It is relatively affordable, a general purpose key switch, and maybe best of all a keyswitch with out too much personality.

You want something more? Then there is BS, Topre and ALPS. But these keyswitches have strong personalities, and the Topre expensive to boot. Unless you have money to burn its best to start out safe and really, its hard to go wrong with a cherry brown.
Its a great switch and relatively quiet. Plus the filco tenkeyless are very nice keyboards.

Hey ripster, I ain't a programmer but love my HHKB : )
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 14:20:36: Thanks for all the advice. I've read a lot of reviews since discovering your site and it's a hard choice between the Filco blues and the Topre.

No, I don't have money to burn even though I'm considering a $150-250 kb. Whatever I buy I need to be, if not happy, then content with.

Noise is a factor but if that means getting a kb I'm not happy with then I'll get something noisy. I'm pretty certain that brown cherrys aren't for me. Without trying them I can't be sure but if I get a cherry, I'm going to get blue unless persuaded otherwise. Browns just sound so boring.

I already have a BS and an ALPS (I think) so a cherry or Topre should be a natural third choice.

So the main concern is fatigue. That's why I was considering the Realforce. People keep saying how comfortable it is to type on.

Does anyone here type for long periods of time with either the Filco blue or Topre and if so, how does it feel?

Thanks again.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: kriminal on Sun, 07 March 2010, 16:26:31: cherry brown users arent boring!!! *shakes fist in air in angry gesture*
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 07 March 2010, 16:43:22: the brown cherries aren't boring : ) they are very light with a slight but noticeable tactile bump. since they are so light, you can fly when you type on it.

the blue cherries are nice too, but they aren't quiet. My wife is using a DasIII and she sits behind me at her desk. It is quite the racket when she is typing at speed.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 17:40:27: Thanks for the info, didn't mean to offend.

I was just worried that the browns weren't tactile enough. I thought I read that the bump wasn't very noticeable.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 07 March 2010, 18:09:59: but they are quiet and not as as pricey as the topre.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sun, 07 March 2010, 19:09:39: Quote from: docsamson;162365
was just worried that the browns weren't tactile enough. I thought I read that the bump wasn't very noticeable.

The tactile feedback of browns is too weak to provide any guidance for touch typing. If you like the sound of blues (guess you've listended to the audio files?), you'll most likely love the switches.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 20:29:27: I have listened to many clips, both of the blues and the Topre amongst others. I think I prefer the thocks of the Topre the best but the blues are very nice too.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Sun, 07 March 2010, 22:25:00: This is good to know.

I'm kinda up in the air about keys that have a really light touch like the Topres or Cherry browns.

It almost seems like if you can't rest your fingers against the keys without them registering, it could get to be very tiring.

Quote from: ripster;162408
Research shows (http://books.google.com/books?id=v996lADepAEC&pg=PA455&lpg=PA455&dq=research+tactile+keyboards&source=bl&ots=RA-3zjvPkB&sig=EVLrFsdgjt5Qfi5D40twPQLKYVs&hl=en&ei=zmqUS-fDG4WIswPf0qH8Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=research%20tactile%20keyboards&f=false)that with more tactile and audio feedback you can reduce hand stress.

Plus, even if this research is probably BS, the Cherry Blues are a hell of a lot more fun than Cherry Browns or Topres.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: Nonmouse on Sun, 07 March 2010, 23:40:22: Quote from: docsamson;162428
This is good to know.

I'm kinda up in the air about keys that have a really light touch like the Topres or Cherry browns.

It almost seems like if you can't rest your fingers against the keys without them registering, it could get to be very tiring.

Meh. I can easily feel the breakpoint on my Cherry browns (MX-8100/G80-8113), and they certainly don't register just from resting your fingers on them. Plus they're a lot quieter than the blues.

However, as several people have already mentioned, it's very much (almost totally?) a matter of personal preference. Me, I'd say try picking up a couple-three keyboards with different switches (Cherry browns, blues, Alps whites, maybe) to see what feels good to you, then toss a couple hundred bucks at the best board with those switches- though, of course, that's another subjective measure...

fleaBay and the Marketplace here are good places to find exemplars of pretty much any keyboard you can think of. Make sure that you (and the vendor) know exactly what you're getting, though.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: wordfool on Mon, 08 March 2010, 02:17:25: For a single project I wouldn't buy a Topre keyboard unless you have serious money to burn. Let's face it -- $200+ for a keyboard is a bit silly. I write for a living, had a bit of money to burn, and needed a quiet alternative to my M13 so I did buy a Realforce 103, however, and I love it except for one point -- the black on gray lettering of the keys means that in nearly all lighting conditions I just cannot see the letters on the keys. Since I learned to type using both touch and eyes, it does mean I make more errors than I'd like.

It is about the quietest quality keyboard I've used, except the space bar does clank a bit and sounds like it belongs on another keyboard altogether. They really need better sound-damping inside it. The Topre key mechanism is silky smooth and a pleasure to type on. It's light, but not overly light IMO, and I have gradually bottomed out less and less. My fingers probably thank me for using the M13 less.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Mon, 08 March 2010, 06:28:18: I didn't mean to imply that this was for a single project. I write a lot and plan on doing quite a bit of typing. That's why I bought the Model M a few years ago but I find it just too tiring to type on for long stretches.

And I don't think $200+ is a lot for a keyboard if the quality's there, a pleasure to use, and will last a long time. I'm certainly not rich but I feel buying two or three cheaper boards ends up being much more expensive in the long run. I rather spend the money up front for something of value.

Plus, coming from fountain pens, $300 is just a drop in the bucket. :wink:

Quote from: wordfool;162478
For a single project I wouldn't buy a Topre keyboard unless you have serious money to burn. Let's face it -- $200+ for a keyboard is a bit silly. I write for a living, had a bit of money to burn, and needed a quiet alternative to my M13 so I did buy a Realforce 103, however, and I love it except for one point -- the black on gray lettering of the keys means that in nearly all lighting conditions I just cannot see the letters on the keys. Since I learned to type using both touch and eyes, it does mean I make more errors than I'd like.

It is about the quietest quality keyboard I've used, except the space bar does clank a bit and sounds like it belongs on another keyboard altogether. They really need better sound-damping inside it. The Topre key mechanism is silky smooth and a pleasure to type on. It's light, but not overly light IMO, and I have gradually bottomed out less and less. My fingers probably thank me for using the M13 less.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 08 March 2010, 10:52:02: I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents. I really don't think the Topre switches are the pot of gold they are made out to be sometimes. I wouldn't throw money at a Realforce, personally. I have the HHKB Pro 2, and the killer feature for me is the layout. The switches are nice, but not great, and if you moved away from rubber domes, you might be disappointed at first as Topres keep the general force curve of rubber domes (they are a lot smoother, more tactile, and don't need to be bottomed out, however). Even after having mine for several weeks, I am not really sold that Topres are the GOAT switch. I would definitely look at the Filco with Cherry browns or the Cherry G80-3000 with browns from Datacal.com. Either one of those will be a joy to knock out 350-400 pages with.

I am not a programmer, but I like the HHKB layout, too.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 08 March 2010, 13:02:52: "sex sells" is a phallacy
;)
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 08 March 2010, 16:57:58: Ha! They have Campbell behind the piano to hide his man-baby belly.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: docsamson on Mon, 08 March 2010, 23:08:07: Thanks everyone for your opinions. Lots to think about. Might just save my money and buy a nice office chair.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: dion2k on Tue, 09 March 2010, 09:56:22: I'm going to have to recommend the Realforce 87u here. Although I have never tried any of the cherry switches, my experience is limited to buckling springs, old white alps, and the topres. But honestly after typing on this Realforce for 2 weeks I have no desire to type on any other switch. I'd imagine the filco cherry brown would be the next best thing.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 09 March 2010, 11:44:35: Quote from: ripster;162736
I use the Staircase Leap Office chair.

Show Image
(http://asid.multiview.com/userlogo/asid/ps/4060v2v1.jpg)

The tactile feedback on my butt is quite nice. No clicking. Maybe a few silent killers.

Not a cheap chair eh? Could get quote a few keyboards for that kinda cash.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: mrbill on Tue, 09 March 2010, 12:12:04: Quote from: ripster;162736
I use the Staircase Leap Office chair.
The tactile feedback on my butt is quite nice. No clicking. Maybe a few silent killers.

You mean Steelcase LEAP. I have the same chair, at home and work. Love it.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 March 2010, 12:18:10: No, the "Staircase" LEAP is what you do when your job really sucks.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8253&stc=1&d=1268158664)
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 09 March 2010, 12:39:03: What's the point of not slouching?
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:10:15: Quote from: ripster;162769
The STEELCASE Leap rules. Great chair. Demand it from your employer. In this case it was myself. I have a nice boss. I took the arms off to force me to not slouch.

You must have a more considerate employer. At one time I could have done this sort of thing but those days are gone.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 March 2010, 14:49:42: I'm sure ripster has a great relationship with his employer. I heard they are very much alike.

It depends on which of his employers you are talking about, though. I'm sure his wife wouldn't have let him have that chair.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 11 March 2010, 16:37:35: (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8306&stc=1&d=1268346816)
I'm a Zody man myself. It's the only chair that I can get through an 18 hour programming binge without ending up with either back pain or a sore ass. I had a CXO chair and an Aeron before that.

The CXO chair has memory foam, which pushes back when you sit in it long enough and it ends up being a sweat basin in the summer. As for the Aeron, the mesh feels like you're sitting on a screen door after 8 hours.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 11 March 2010, 16:45:24: I re-read my quote in your sig and found humor. Truer words have never been spoken; my bank account agrees.
Title: Realforce: the best keyboard for long bouts of typing?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 11 March 2010, 19:22:16: Quote from: itlnstln;163282
I re-read my quote in your sig and found humor. Truer words have never been spoken; my bank account agrees.

LOL, Ripster's needling you to buy a Realforce was cracking me up after the third time I read you referencing the layout of the HHKB. It got funnier after someone else mentioned he bought a HHKB 2 Lite to try out the layout.

I know what you mean about being really taken by a layout though. Once you get used to it, it really does start to save you time and that alone will pay for the extra cost of any keyboard. You'll always be able to reprogram any boards in the future to borrow your favorite macros now too. My Filco is programmed to mimick a Matias Optimizer.

I've made enough references to that layout lately. I'll post something about it later... got get back to finishing a site now and get some Zzzz's.