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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jcoffin1981 on Sat, 29 July 2017, 22:12:31

Title: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sat, 29 July 2017, 22:12:31: I've read many threads on Reddit and GH about switch lubrication. Discussions about lubrication in any field open up a huge can of worms. I recently took apart a keyboard and cleaned and lubed a switch that was sticking with a synthetic oil that would be unknown to anybody here and I was amazed at the difference in the switch (scratchiness gone).

I'm looking to lube several keyboards, all tactile Cherry and Gateron brown. Most of the posts seem really anecdotal and I suspect the people who have had problems with sluggishness and stickiness simply used way too much lubrication. I'm not looking for an experiment and really want to do this just once. I've looked at Superlube, Dupont Silicone Teflon, and the Krytox variants, as well as the original oil I used. All would probably be better than stock, but I was hoping to get some more input. The cost is not really a factor (within reason) as it is bought once and it will last forever, but I'm not looking for the next generation in aeronautic lubrication for $300 an ounce either.

Higher torque and lower speed calls for a more viscous oil/grease, but I'm concerned with slowing down the responsiveness of the switch. I realize that any response is still anecdotal and somewhat opinionated, but it's still better than trying 4 or 5 different lubes and coming to a conclusion myself.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 30 July 2017, 01:00:15: for the cherry style boards, they don't STAY lubed, that's the problem..

Since the switch housing is not designed to be taken apart, prying it open each time is doing severe damage to it each time.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 30 July 2017, 16:20:23: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 30 July 2017, 01:00:15
for the cherry style boards, they don't STAY lubed, that's the problem..

Since the switch housing is not designed to be taken apart, prying it open each time is doing severe damage to it each time.

I can see that it's probably not designed to be, but I can pull it apart with my fingers and reassemble with no apparent damage. I've been experimenting with several oils and greases (none from the forums) and it seems that the type of lubricant is less important than the actual presence of lubrication. However I do seem to like the feel of the very heavy oils/greases better. If they were all mixed up I'd have a hard time telling them apart.

Now I only have a small sample size, but lubing the contact between the slider and the metal leaf seems to INCREASE tactility. This is counterintuitive, but maybe with less resistance the leaf pops back with greater force. Those who complain about browns would be interested in this. I would also like to see a force curve for lubed vs non-lubed switches. Me personally I'm not sure if I like this increased tactility, but I'd have to experiment with an entire lubed keyboard, which I'm just not going to do.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00: MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 30 July 2017, 22:26:49: Quote from: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00
MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.

Interesting. The difference is apparent to me after lubing. Can someone point point out where I can get Zealios switches as a sample and not commit to a whole board of 60 or 100? I'm looking at what's available and it seems that the lightest is 62g. I'm not sure if that is comparable, but I'm not looking for a heavier switch. I once bought Cherry clears and only used them for a few minutes before returning them because they were much too stiff.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: SBJ on Mon, 31 July 2017, 00:11:30: Quote from: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 30 July 2017, 22:26:49
Quote from: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00
MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.

Interesting. The difference is apparent to me after lubing. Can someone point point out where I can get Zealios switches as a sample and not commit to a whole board of 60 or 100? I'm looking at what's available and it seems that the lightest is 62g. I'm not sure if that is comparable, but I'm not looking for a heavier switch. I once bought Cherry clears and only used them for a few minutes before returning them because they were much too stiff.
You can check the Zeal forum under Vendor.
GB's get posted there. I don't know if there are any currently running.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: dante on Mon, 31 July 2017, 13:02:10: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 30 July 2017, 01:00:15
for the cherry style boards, they don't STAY lubed, that's the problem..

How long will the lube in factory switches last for?
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Mon, 31 July 2017, 16:09:01: I'm pretty sure that factory switches are not lubed, just the stabilizers (at least the Cherry MX Browns are not). As far as the chemical properties of switch lubrication, the right choice should stay in place and last for many years without needing to be re-lubed.

I want to do this once and am having a hard time making a choice. It seems everyone has a different preference.

Has anybody had any experience lubricating the leaf contact point?
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: ygor on Mon, 31 July 2017, 16:48:10: (http://i.imgur.com/W77VpWC.png?1)
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Wed, 02 August 2017, 17:16:30: Quote from: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00
MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.

Zealios look a little heavy to me. Browns are the right weight. The lightest they come in is 62g. I would like to try them but not for 0.75 cents each and soldering a whole board. I am curious why browns are not worth lubing. I trust the opinions of those more experienced than me, but I hear and see less friction with the switch lubed so I'm not sure why this is a waste of time. I'm also itching for a project.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 02 August 2017, 22:09:38: Quote from: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 30 July 2017, 22:26:49
Quote from: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00
MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.

Interesting. The difference is apparent to me after lubing. Can someone point point out where I can get Zealios switches as a sample and not commit to a whole board of 60 or 100? I'm looking at what's available and it seems that the lightest is 62g. I'm not sure if that is comparable, but I'm not looking for a heavier switch. I once bought Cherry clears and only used them for a few minutes before returning them because they were much too stiff.

https://1upkeyboards.com/zealio-switch-sample-pack.html
https://www.novelkeys.xyz/product/zealio-switch-tester/
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: chyros on Thu, 03 August 2017, 02:04:02: They're already un-tactile enough, you might as well get linears if you want lubed browns :p .
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: typo on Thu, 03 August 2017, 19:11:18: They will stay lubed with what he used. I am assuming he said no one here would know it because it is the gun/knife crowd. It is funny the difference between those kinds and geeks. I can pretend to get along with anyone. Anyways if you used like the red synthetic/PTFE gun oil that will stay at least. It will not slow them down but speed them up! So no help there. If you think it lasts a month of regular usage in a 9mm Glock than it is going to last years in a keyboard. I use it on Clear stems with Grey Springs. To make a very heavy switch that presses fluidly. The Clears have hardly any tactile to begin with. Not like Blues. Most people would think this switch is super uncomfortable at about 120g/cn but with that lube it is something else. To me at least. I have done this 15 years ago and still lubed. It all depends on what the lubricant is. I think you want to look for synthetic axel grease at a automotive store or transmission friction modifier. a 1OZ bottle is about $100. Unless you get junk stuff at Pep Boy's. That will make them feel nice and slow them down.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Fri, 04 August 2017, 13:43:13: It's an oil used for lubricating watch parts. I have never gotten into the whole gun/knife hobby. I have another one with molydenumdisulphide and the molecules have a certain amount of tension and past a certain amount of friction they slide over each other. I have to experiment and and do a little research and see if it is plastic safe. It also may not be as long lasting.

I'm gonna try the Dupont product, but also want to try the Zealios as they are all the rage. This is kind of fun experimenting.

Holy crap, 120 grams! 65g springs fatigued my fingers.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 04 August 2017, 17:15:32: Quote from: chyros on Thu, 03 August 2017, 02:04:02
They're already un-tactile enough, you might as well get linears if you want lubed browns :p .
This.
Lubing masks the tactile feel, I wish I had known this before lubing my Ergo Clears.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: typo on Fri, 04 August 2017, 23:50:44: Like I said I am all over the place. You are talking to a guy that has multiple Patek and IWC among many others. Probably more Omega's than anything else because they are at a lower price point. I have a gallon of synthetic watch oil. Now due to disability I hire someone. Well, I always knew the guy. Anyways, I think you are going to be better off with gun oil. It has much more staying power and it has a higher lubricity. I do not remember the name of the best one but just go to a gun shop and ask for the good one with the red label. They will know what you want an also you do not know about guns lol. Otherwise you can get Remoil at Walmart. I honestly think it is not bad but it is certainly not the best. You might be better off with bearing grease or what I use is transmission friction modifier. Real nice stuff. It is like $100 for 1OZ. I know I said this. Heck I am old.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 05 August 2017, 00:52:44: Beware that it's silicone and not petroleum based or it will attack the plastic over time. Some synthetics are petroleum based.

Safest place to get plastic safe grease is a local hobby shop, RC cars use it and they have VERY high performance stuff.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sat, 05 August 2017, 22:49:55: Quote from: typo on Fri, 04 August 2017, 23:50:44
Like I said I am all over the place. You are talking to a guy that has multiple Patek and IWC among many others. Probably more Omega's than anything else because they are at a lower price point. I have a gallon of synthetic watch oil. Now due to disability I hire someone. Well, I always knew the guy. Anyways, I think you are going to be better off with gun oil. It has much more staying power and it has a higher lubricity. I do not remember the name of the best one but just go to a gun shop and ask for the good one with the red label. They will know what you want an also you do not know about guns lol. Otherwise you can get Remoil at Walmart. I honestly think it is not bad but it is certainly not the best. You might be better off with bearing grease or what I use is transmission friction modifier. Real nice stuff. It is like $100 for 1OZ. I know I said this. Heck I am old.

No Patec or IWC, but more Omega's then I can count on most fingers and toes. I am going to experiment with several oils (as well as gun oils) and see what results I get. The consensus seems to be that this is a waste of time for these switches. The friction is decreased but so is the resistance. I still like the lubed switches better. I've found some thread with some people combining switch stems, housings, and sliders, but have had mediocre results.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 06 August 2017, 16:37:33: I have tried this and confirmed this multiple oils and greases- Yes lubrication the plastic friction points decreases tactility, but yes it does make it smoother. However if you lubricate the legs where it contacts the metal leaf, it greatly increase tactility. Me personally, I'm not sure I like this as I like the decreased tactility. I feel when you break through the bump it's hard not to bottom out.

For those who think lubing MX is a waste of time- give it a try.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 06 August 2017, 17:45:13: Quote from: typo on Fri, 04 August 2017, 23:50:44
Like I said I am all over the place. You are talking to a guy that has multiple Patek and IWC among many others. Probably more Omega's than anything else because they are at a lower price point. I have a gallon of synthetic watch oil. Now due to disability I hire someone. Well, I always knew the guy. Anyways, I think you are going to be better off with gun oil. It has much more staying power and it has a higher lubricity. I do not remember the name of the best one but just go to a gun shop and ask for the good one with the red label. They will know what you want an also you do not know about guns lol. Otherwise you can get Remoil at Walmart. I honestly think it is not bad but it is certainly not the best. You might be better off with bearing grease or what I use is transmission friction modifier. Real nice stuff. It is like $100 for 1OZ. I know I said this. Heck I am old.

Typo, I think you are referring to Hoppe's #9 lubricant, with a red label. This is one of the go to for, guns, knives, and fishing reels. I need to lube a fishing reel so I am going to buy this anyway, so I may as well try it.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: typo on Mon, 07 August 2017, 00:50:39: Yes that is the one. I could not think of the name. I use very high quality transmission friction modifier. It lasts a long time on these unlike other oils but it may not be to your liking. It is pretty expensive. Like more than a keyboard. I use Grey springs with Clear stems with the friction modifier to slow them down because I am just crazy. If you don't know what I mean, that is about a 120g.cn switch. I am so big and muscular it is good to me. A blue for instance I could push right through the bottom of the board! Not literally of course but you get the idea.

I too mostly have Omega's. I think if you really know watches, than Omega is super high quality for the lowest you can pay for said quality. It is just an awesome watch at a price most people could get at least one if they wanted. Of course many people might think a $3,000-$5,000 watch is outrageous. Same thing with mechanical keyboards and straight razor I use ETC. To be perfectly honest a $150,000 watch is not as good as a Speedmaster in most cases. It might have more finishing or complications but the movement is hardly ever better. Truth. Okay sorry OT.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Mon, 07 August 2017, 17:08:19: Omegas are great. I have mostly Omegas and other vintage Swiss from the 40's and 50's.

The Hoppe's no. 9 I've read all the gun guys ranting about it as if it's the best thing since sliced bread. A gun and a keyboard are very different animals. I've tried about 5 of my oil's and greases and to be honest it's hard to detect a difference between them. I do want to experiment with different viscosities at different switch points. I have heard mixed results about Dupont Silicone Teflon so may skip that.

How about an oil or grease where it's chief application is to platic on plastic friction? A light grease may be best. I do want to research this. I'm off to Home Depot to try some Superlube.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Mon, 07 August 2017, 21:07:43: I'm looking at some Molykote PG (plastic grease) varieties and they general sell wholesale to industry if you want to buy 10Kg of the stuff. There are some people who repackage it and sell to individuals.

I was looking at Superlube. Home Depot didn't have it- they have 60 lubes on their website, but in the store only sell WD-40. Anyways the Superlube Silicone has only "good" compatability with many plastics such as delrin, while the Superlube Synthetic has "excellent" compatability with the same plastics. The chart is available here. http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/Super_Lube_Compatibility_Chart.pdf
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: typo on Tue, 08 August 2017, 01:39:14: WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a solvent and will eat most plastic compounds. HD upsets me. all nice stuff online and not in the store. Why even have a store then? Just do like Amazon. They would profit Billions more. You could try what I use. High quality, like Redline Transmission friction modifier. It is very expensive. It slows down the keys what I thought you wanted. What is special is it stays on the keys for years. You use a thin synthetic and you will be lubing every 3 months. There is also synthetic Axel/Hub grease. I would go to a Automotive store. Even Marvel mystery oil has a place. Just be careful anything is plastic safe. There are so many oils/grease you have probably at least 200 options. I like the friction modifier. It will make the keys heavier. So my clear stems with Grey springs, lubed hit 120g,cn. I know because I have a meter.

All my Omegas are from the 90's up. I got a vintage one and got screwed. I paid $1,000 for it and my watchmaker who is very competent could not fix it. That Ref. Base was no longer available. If you do not get screwed of course they are mostly less than new and quite frankly often even better. I am not a big fan of the Coaxial but I do have a Deville. The one with the glass case.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: smithyithy on Tue, 08 August 2017, 08:13:00: Quote from: jcoffin1981 on Wed, 02 August 2017, 17:16:30
Quote from: klennkellon on Sun, 30 July 2017, 21:29:00
MX Browns aren't worth lubing imo. Just get Zealios or one of the many Zealios clones that are popping up.

Zealios look a little heavy to me. Browns are the right weight. The lightest they come in is 62g. I would like to try them but not for 0.75 cents each and soldering a whole board. I am curious why browns are not worth lubing. I trust the opinions of those more experienced than me, but I hear and see less friction with the switch lubed so I'm not sure why this is a waste of time. I'm also itching for a project.

Zealios are quoted in bottom-out weight, but the way the weight increases throughout the press is different due to the difference in design.

Compare the MX Brown and Zealio force curve graphs here: https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile/

The Zealio actuates with less force, but bottoms out with more force. Coupled with how smooth they are, they're very pleasant to type on and no more fatiguing IMO. Ergo Clears are another option, which can be made the same weight as the lightest Zealio and lubed the same, though I'm not sure if they work out cheaper once you've built them, than simply buying premade Zealios..
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Wed, 16 August 2017, 14:47:30: These I would be interested in as I'm itching to try a new switch. Looks only slightly heavier than a brown. Its light early in the switch press and only become stiffer at the one last quarter of a keystroke. This I like, easy to actuate and cushioning at the bottom.
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Fri, 01 September 2017, 15:23:37: I will add that it probably was not worth lubing these. I tried 5 different lubes or so, including Superlube which I hated as they made them seem sluggish. I chose the one which is a thin grease called PML Grease, as it made them the smoothest, removing all scratchiness. However, all the tactility is gone and I miss it a little. However, it's easier to not bottom out which I like. Will just take some adjusting. (They are also quieter, which I like).

Next time I will use the plastic grease I have which wasn't as smooth, but left a little more tactility (or get zealios, if I can find them).
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: OfTheWild on Fri, 01 September 2017, 19:35:05: If you like a mild tactile switch thats smooth i'd suggest trying some lubed gateron browns with heavier springs. I kind of duped a concept of gateron browns with 67g springs with beige vinyl stickers my "cappuccino" switches. I think they're fantastic.
(https://i.imgur.com/RgJqW20.jpg)
Title: Re: Lubricating my MX browns
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Mon, 04 September 2017, 20:09:46: Quote from: OfTheWild on Fri, 01 September 2017, 19:35:05
If you like a mild tactile switch thats smooth i'd suggest trying some lubed gateron browns with heavier springs. I kind of duped a concept of gateron browns with 67g springs with beige vinyl stickers my "cappuccino" switches. I think they're fantastic.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/RgJqW20.jpg)

I like the smoothness of the lubed switch, but I think all that labor comes to the point of diminishing returns. I know most people come to prefer PBT caps, (I do like the solid feel) however for the switches with lighter springs I think that lighter 'cheaper' ABS is advantageous. Looking at the Switch Hitter program, the boards with browns and ABS (cherry or gateron) I can get a keystroke time of 11 to 40 ms, while with PBT caps I cannot get lower than 40 to 60 ms. Mind you this is not during a normal keystroke, this is trying to get the fastest time I can get, but this makes me realize why my go-to boards have been with all ABS keycaps. I have not tried a board with lubed switches and ABS keycaps.

If you wanted to have a heavier keycap feel more responsive you would probably need to increase the spring weight. I have not tried this, but I do appreciate the recommendation. I'd hate to go through all that labor and then say "ehhh." And then use a board shipped as stock.