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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: hyperlinked on Sat, 13 March 2010, 02:56:50

Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sat, 13 March 2010, 02:56:50
Ever since the iPad announcement, the knives have been out on every forum online that doesn't have a pro-Apple slant to it. Look, I get it. A lot of people are annoyed at the spin factory that is part of the Apple operation and a lot of people even dislike their products for substantial technical reasons. This is all fine. You have every right to your opinion and I completely agree that a lot of Apple stuff is more hype than substance and some of it is even all hype and no substance.

I own a number of Apple products and while I'm no fanboy, it's just tiresome to see every other thread digress into Apple bashing when it's not even relevant. The more it happens, the more it'll attract people who want to flame anything Apple and probably some people who worship the Steve and see it as their religous duty to defend the Apple crest to this site. GeekHack will become just like every other tech discussion site that lost its desire to actually have real discussions. It'll be a bunch of people screaming at each other with the ones who are the most extreme in their positions gaining the most attention. It's poisonous for bashing of any sort to become the way people bond on a site so please give it a rest.

There are plenty of sites that are all about hating Apple, hating Microsoft, hating Linux, hating PCs, hating the Steve, hating the Bill... If this kind of thing makes your **** bigger, go there and you'll have an 80 foot Johnson in a week. Please don't turn this site into another one of those sites.

An in very un-GeekHack like fasion, I'll end by saying "Thank you."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 13 March 2010, 05:47:04
The same people around here who have over-exaggerated 'sheep' opinions about Apple tend to be the same people who have over-exaggerated 'sheep' opinions about everything else, and should be dismissed on their own (de)merits.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Sat, 13 March 2010, 06:13:16
I don't bash apple. I won't however, but into their closed, overpriced system. If you choose to, that's fine, it's your money, and your life.

It's simply a company offering a product (And in this case, a percieved lifestyle). Buy, or do not Buy.

I don't think I will ever get fanboi's.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Sat, 13 March 2010, 08:39:17
I don't bash companies (they all suck), I bash products.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 13 March 2010, 08:50:04
I think some of the backlash is from people that are sick of hearing Mac users talk about their how magnificent they are for being a Mac user.  There's a real arrogance that has permeated the Mac culture for a long time and when you aren't "in the club" those who are in the club can sometimes come across as being pretentious dbags.

I'm glad Mac is alive and well, it makes Windows and Linux developers work harder.

iSteve touts being "in control" of your Mac and having things "the way you want" but that is really an illusion, you have less control and options with Mac devices than with a Linux or Windows system in most cases, yet clever marketing and sleight of hand has convinced Mac owners otherwise.

With that said, I'd love a Macbook Pro, just not for the price.  I love my iphone, but not how proprietary it is.

I'm not being a "hater" or a "fanboy" but stating what I have observed.  I think Mac has become successful enough that they are now getting a dose of criticism that comes with great success.
Title: Mac bashing...
Post by: Specter_57 on Sat, 13 March 2010, 09:50:53
..

My opinion of Macs has come to the point it is today due to years of "hands-on" experience with these machines, and in my case...primarily hardware...and that's before we even touch on the operating system itself...and of course...let us not forget the previlant intellectual snobbery of some Mac users....and I see that there are others who feel much as I do toward the systems...more or less extreme, perhaps...but I know I am not alone.

Those commercials..."I'm a Mac...I'm a PC.." .....they make me laugh out loud...the breath-taking arrogance and snobbery of them...is astounding.

...and for those PC-bashers among us, for those here who cannot stand the idea of a differing opinion or a contrary idea....maybe you should take a look at this page...

http://www.compaqsucks.com/

just so you know that sometimes PCs can suck too.

 Having had the misfortune to also have worked on several Compaqs over the years...I long ago came to the conclusion that Compaq is attempting to be the Mac/Apple of the PC world.  I guess those at that link I mention here maybe think so too

.........
Spec57
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: nanu on Sat, 13 March 2010, 10:35:37
Name a website (wherein you're an aging participant) that allows open registrations, does not much censoring, has gained immense-enough popularity and still retains the [strike]limited[/strike]original community values that veterans want upheld. It never happens. The subject scope of these forums is limited enough that complaints about complaints here is a non-issue, and we haven't accumulated enough users to have significant [strike]amounts of differing opinions[/strike]immaturity.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Sat, 13 March 2010, 13:20:10
Yeah, IBM is pretty much pure services now. The hardware they're handling is more or less part of the deal. Same for SunOracle, really. HP wishes they were there (so expect them to acquire companies to facilitate this, for example SAP, this year).

Oh, as for what I think of Apple; They're a company that makes software and hardware that is not my cup of Koolaid, mainly due to lock-in, software non-freedom and design choices that I disagree with. I like my eMacs, though, but they could stand to be a lot less noisy (darn fan, should get fanmates for them). I prefer Woz over Jobs. Woz was/is a hacker, Jobs found a way to make money out of it. Both is needed, of course, but jobs is still a douche.
Title: another example....
Post by: Specter_57 on Sat, 13 March 2010, 14:48:23
..

Of Mac design...thinking and innovation...imagine *two* buttons...wow!!!

ebay:  http://cgi.ebay.ca/KENSINGTON-TURBO-MOUSE-TRACKBALL-FOR-MAC-64100_W0QQitemZ120539880158QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMice?hash=item1c10bc9ade

........
Spec57
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 13 March 2010, 16:43:45
My experience with most apple products has been highly negative. Apple deliberately makes their stuff incompatible with mainstream products until they feel it's necessary to change (such as the recent switch from PowerPC to intel -- which causes even MORE comaptibility issues with older macs; rosetta does not work good AT ALL, it's horrible, causes apps to freeze, and even will delete your files).

Now, most typcial consumer computers are also bad. Dells I find are the worst, terrible capacitors.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 13 March 2010, 16:47:37
Just because they wanted to use a different processor architecture doesn't mean that they did it to be awkward... Intel processors are not the best out there, many companies ditch them to use more efficient solutions.

Unfortunately the POWER architecture is very energy intensive. They're very fast, but eat up electricity and generate too much heat. That's why they never made a G5 macbook. I think that problem, moreso than any other, prompted them to switch to Intel.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Sat, 13 March 2010, 17:02:14
Quote from: webwit;163622
You are confusing action and reaction. For example, consider this thread (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/03/13/032205/Apple-Loses-Aussie-Trademark-Complaint-Over-i-Name) at slashdot. The person saying "If Apple were a person he would be a total douche, but of course we  again see some Apple fanboys coming to defend this douchebag.", is he or she a pro-active hater, or reacting to douchebag behavior of a company and calling it what it is?

Similarly, you can't just ask people to stop bashing Apple and making them look bad at the same time as the cause of all this. You have to ask people to stop preaching the false God first.


Don't think I've done this yet, but there's a first time for everything.

Quoted. For. Truth.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sat, 13 March 2010, 19:53:29
Quote from: kishy;163786
Don't think I've done this yet, but there's a first time for everything.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Except that I think you used it wrong. QFT is for pointing out when someone is trying to revise what he had said before to win an argument or avoid embarassment rather than to say "this person is one truth telling mofo who tells it like it is!"

Anyway, regarding the original quote... there aren't any Apple fanboys on GH and that's part of my point so please don't take your frustrations out on someone on GH just because he admits to something as minor as liking his iPod touch. People here are critical about everything, but usually it's because of specific product characteristics.

On some things (that aren't limited to Apple related topics), there's often a personal edge that says "you must be an idiot if you..." Welly got his head beaten in because he liked IE the most and while he said some things to provoke people, the pile on did get excessive. I'm a Web developer and IE is a huge source of stress for me. I want it to die, but I'm not going to take it out on Welly.

Yeah, it's asking too much to ask people to be mature, but it never hurts to ask. It probably won't do much if anything at all, but hopefully it'll get a couple of people to think before a post once in a while and really that's what it boils down to. I'd be surprised if the *******s were really total *******s in person. A lot of them are just really impulsive when behind the buttons of a message forum. I'm just asking people to think a sec before posting something that might come across a lot more harsh than they probably intended and we all need to be reminded of that now and then.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 13 March 2010, 20:32:15
Quote from: ch_123;163783
Just because they wanted to use a different processor architecture doesn't mean that they did it to be awkward... Intel processors are not the best out there, many companies ditch them to use more efficient solutions.

Unfortunately the POWER architecture is very energy intensive. They're very fast, but eat up electricity and generate too much heat. That's why they never made a G5 macbook. I think that problem, moreso than any other, prompted them to switch to Intel.


PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.

Now, of course, I bet you all know by my name that I prefer to use IBM-compatible machines. But that doesn't mean that you have to. Just because I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget (Yes, bad idea there. There're still 10-year-old Imac's in use!), that doesn't mean that an Apple is better-suited for something else. It's not my money you're all spending, after all. Buy what you like. Isn't that the point of money?

The thing about these PC vs. Mac arguments is they're just silly. There will always be IBM people, and there will always be Mac people, and each party will sincerely believe that whatever product they support is amazing and the other party's product is garbage. I always get a good kick out of reading them.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Sat, 13 March 2010, 20:35:09
I can't do anything right around here.
*sigh*
I tried webwit, and failed.

FWIW I always try to be civil with my perceived fanboyism or...anti-fanboyism, or inverse fanboyism.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: williamjoseph on Sun, 14 March 2010, 03:59:51
"i'm a mac...... i'm a PC...."    bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 14 March 2010, 04:41:32
Quote from: ripster;163832
iLounge has posted their iPad buying guide

Here's mine:


Quote from: williamjoseph;163866
"i'm a mac...... i'm a PC...."    bla bla bla


Out of curiosity, do you guys have those Microsoft "I'm a PC" adverts on TV? They make no sense. I understand the "I'm a Mac vs I'm a PC" videos - they make sense, they are analogies comparing attributes of owners with their respective computers. But the the "I'm a PC" adverts make no such sense. They just wheel out users saying how great Windows is then tagging on the punchline "I'm a PC." It's retarded, dumbed down manipulative nonsense. Just the kind of non-literal crap you'd expect from Apple. Obviously MS is after a bigger slice of the gullible idiot market.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 04:55:47
Quote from: microsoft windows;163814
PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.

Show me some facts, because I have seen plenty to suggest otherwise.

Quote
I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget

Which pretty much automatically renders your opinion invalid.

If computers are not well supported and looked after, they will be ****. Take for example Windows 7. It runs great on my machine. My neighbor gets a new computer which is almost of the same spec, and it runs ****. Why does the same OS behave so differently on almost exactly the same machine? Because Dell installed their copy and I installed mine. And we all know how Dell piles on the ****e in their consumer software bundle.

Same story with Linux. In my college there's a pile of Debian machines which almost never work because the servers on which all the user files are set up on is set up in some retarded way (possibly in order to cater to the ancient XP machines), so there are days when it can't find the home directory and refuses to log on.

The point is, there's no such thing as an idiot proof OS. If it is not set up and maintained in a sufficient way, it will not work properly. The only way to reliably gauge how good an OS is is by running it yourself on your own machine with your own configuration.

Quote
The thing about these PC vs. Mac arguments is they're just silly.


This of course explains why you make silly arguments in them. Good boy.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:09:55
Quote from: Rajagra;163868
They just wheel out users saying how great Windows is then tagging on the punchline "I'm a PC." It's retarded, dumbed down manipulative nonsense. Just the kind of non-literal crap you'd expect from Apple. Obviously MS is after a bigger slice of the gullible idiot market.


Those are still running? I thought they were all replaced by the "Windows 7 was my idea" ads, which seem to finally be a Windows ad that hits on the right note.

The only place where the Windows 7 was my Idea ad falls flat is in banner ads because there's no context and it looks like some megalomaniac is in a freeze frame claiming that he/she invented the Microsoft product.

The biggest problem with the I'm a PC ads is that it's a direct reference to the Mac ads and it's usually not a good idea to reference your competitor's advertising.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:14:21
BTW, in case anyone's reading my original post as "Please don't hurt the feelings of that Apple users," that's not what I meant.

I meant that lately there seems to be a tech website version of Godwin's law. The longer a discussion continues the greater the likelihood that someone will bring up Apple and the thread ends up being yet another slog about why Apple does or doesn't suck.

Besides, Apple users don't have feelings. Steve Jobs controls them remotely.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:19:07
It's a sort of reactionary thing - Mac ads insinuate that Windows users are gangly white dorks (which is stupid, because the stereotypical nerd type uses Linux or some other *nix which is quite similar to Mac OS X) So MS launches into a tirade to make Windows look cool - let's throw in a few sports players, black people (because everyone loves ads that have lots of black people), women, children, animals, single-cell amoeba etc.

Of course, it serves no purpose because people who use Windows are either a) average people who think that Windows is the computer or b) informed people who specifically need Windows. So Microsoft is trying to reaffirm an image that it's customers don't give a **** about either way in an order to trade blows in the pissing competition that Apple started.

The real danger for MS from Apple's ads is the fact that Apple regularly highlight failings with the Windows platform. Of course, MS can get up and talk about new features and whatever, but people tend to listen more to criticism of something rather than the product's manufacturer telling you that it's great. Really, the best thing for MS to do would be to just ignore it - what they are doing now makes them look somewhat desperate.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:22:33
Quote from: microsoft windows;163814

PowerPC processors were just a racket. They were pieces of out-of-date junk even when they were new. It was a good idea on Apple's part to switch to Intel architecture.


I disagree. The G4 series, for example, outperformed x86 processors of their time, just as MIPS used to outperform x86 (and then SGI went over to Itanium, pretty much). Then for a while x86 actually got decent for a while, so Apple switched. Nowadays, I'd still probably choose a PPC over an x86. The first Xbox had an x86 chip in it, for the 360 they switched to a Power from IBM. The Wii and the PS3 also run PowerPC from IBM (so we can correctly deduce that IBM is the only winner in the console wars).

POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

But yes, at the moment of Apples switch, G5 had bad temperature problems. X86, silly as it sounds, ran cooler.

Quote from: microsoft windows;163814

Now, of course, I bet you all know by my name that I prefer to use IBM-compatible machines. But that doesn't mean that you have to. Just because I had bad experience with Apple computers in a school system with a limited budget (Yes, bad idea there. There're still 10-year-old Imac's in use!), that doesn't mean that an Apple is better-suited for something else. It's not my money you're all spending, after all. Buy what you like. Isn't that the point of money?


I think you mean intel compatible machines.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 05:28:05
I think MW quantifies the merits of entire processor architectures on their ability to run Windows 2000...

Wasn't there a beta of W2K for the POWER architecture?

Quote
POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

It's a bloody shame that IBM doesn't make workstations any more, probably would cost tens of thousands though.

The thing about the T3 is that the cores are meant to be relatively primitive, but it compensates by having lots of them. They're not really a general purpose CPU, moreso something designed to handle lots of small treads at once.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Sun, 14 March 2010, 06:05:30
Yes, indeed, neither of them are really designed for "desktop use". The T3 will probably handle SAP and other database heavy applications really well, though, for example.

I could argue for how the general purpose cpu is becoming obsolete and instead will leave room for multiple cores specialized in different things. I attended a talk with a Sun employee who actually talked about that (or rather, the "Great computing depression (http://www.lysator.liu.se/upplysning/fa/The_Great_Depression.pdf)", which was in part based on The Landscape of Parallel Computing Research (http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-183.html)).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 14 March 2010, 07:36:09
Quote from: ch_123;163875
The real danger for MS from Apple's ads is the fact that Apple regularly highlight failings with the Windows platform. Of course, MS can get up and talk about new features and whatever, but people tend to listen more to criticism of something rather than the product's manufacturer telling you that it's great. Really, the best thing for MS to do would be to just ignore it - what they are doing now makes them look somewhat desperate.


It's that strange paradox that by refuting a claim, you inadvertently also reinforce it in some people.

The other problem is that there have been a long string of Microsoft ads that have been complete fodder for ridicule like the Jerry Seinfeld series, the "Folger's" Vista series, and some of the "I'm a PC ads." When youre marketing department is on a losing streak, people are waiting and expect to pounce on your next offering.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 14 March 2010, 09:35:38
Quote from: ch_123;163871
Show me some facts, because I have seen plenty to suggest otherwise.



Which pretty much automatically renders your opinion invalid.

If computers are not well supported and looked after, they will be ****. Take for example Windows 7. It runs great on my machine. My neighbor gets a new computer which is almost of the same spec, and it runs ****. Why does the same OS behave so differently on almost exactly the same machine? Because Dell installed their copy and I installed mine. And we all know how Dell piles on the ****e in their consumer software bundle.

Same story with Linux. In my college there's a pile of Debian machines which almost never work because the servers on which all the user files are set up on is set up in some retarded way (possibly in order to cater to the ancient XP machines), so there are days when it can't find the home directory and refuses to log on.

The point is, there's no such thing as an idiot proof OS. If it is not set up and maintained in a sufficient way, it will not work properly. The only way to reliably gauge how good an OS is is by running it yourself on your own machine with your own configuration.

 

This of course explains why you make silly arguments in them. Good boy.


Buying Apple computers when you have a limited budget is a bad idea. They were so expesive that we had to make do with what we had. The other school I work at in the district uses IBM-compatible computers. Since they're much cheaper, they were able to much more easily update their fleet of computers than the school with the Mac's.

Now, about the PowerPC's. Anyone remember the Power Macintosh G3's? They cost an arm and a leg back in 1998 when they came out. And my Gateway2000 from early 1996 outpowers them.

How about those colorful iMac's from around 2000? The fastest of those ran at 600Mhz. Most ran at 300-400Mhz, less than half the speed of the PC's from that era (933Mhz Pentium III versus 400Mhz G3). Oh, and the G4 laptops? The run-of-the-mill models of those ran at about 800Mhz. That was 2003. My Dell laptop from 2003 runs at three times the speed (2.4Ghz) and can handle twice the RAM.

Apple's computer hardware was far behind PC's until just a few years ago when they came out with their redesigned iMac with a Core 2 Duo that was about the equivalent of the PC of that day. Ever since then, Apple's computer hardware has been much more up-to-date.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 09:38:55
Quote from: microsoft windows;163895
Now, about the PowerPC's. Anyone remember the Power Macintosh G3's? They cost an arm and a leg back in 1998 when they came out. And my Gateway2000 from early 1996 outpowers them.

Again, proof plx.

Quote
How about those colorful iMac's from around 2000? The fastest of those ran at 600Mhz. Most ran at 300-400Mhz, less than half the speed of the PC's from that era (933Mhz Pentium III versus 400Mhz G3). Oh, and the G4 laptops? The run-of-the-mill models of those ran at about 800Mhz. That was 2003.

Oh dear.

Let me put it this way, ever notice the way that there were Pentium 4s running at 3.8GHz? Notice that they were replaced by processors running between 2-2.8GHz? Do you think that the former are quicker than the latter?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Sun, 14 March 2010, 10:21:12
Although I have him on ignore, I can see him being quoted, so here goes...

IPC (Instructions per Cycle)

It's something you may want to look up before making assumptions on what is faster. That is, assuming you are not an sucessful troll. Just learn there are some things that, although you do not agree or like, are true. The total throughput of the chip on a given application/type of instruction or data is what matters. Does it do it faster? yes? Then who gives a **** who makes it. After that, you consider cost, because, and this is the important bit, you have a baseline to make cost/performance comparisons.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 10:22:35
Ah come on, you're giving away the ending!

The problem with IPC is that it's effectively unquantifiable except through benchmarks with a wide variety of applications. The Itanium can theoretically do 6 instructions per clock cycle, but no one actually figured out how to make software that makes use of that ability, so it's around the same as an x86 chip.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 13:49:37
The other thing about Apple machines being expensive is that there are plenty of considered-legendary PC companies *coughsibmcoughs* who sold machines that were very expensive for what you got. In fact, unlike Apple, IBM's machines didn't really do anything that the competition couldn't do.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 14 March 2010, 16:35:46
Quote from: kode;163877
I disagree. The G4 series, for example, outperformed x86 processors of their time, just as MIPS used to outperform x86 (and then SGI went over to Itanium, pretty much). Then for a while x86 actually got decent for a while, so Apple switched. Nowadays, I'd still probably choose a PPC over an x86. The first Xbox had an x86 chip in it, for the 360 they switched to a Power from IBM. The Wii and the PS3 also run PowerPC from IBM (so we can correctly deduce that IBM is the only winner in the console wars).

POWER7 is ridiculously awesome. In the age of multi-core and multi-thread, x86 is lagging behind, really. Intel does a maximum of two threads per core and have announced a 6 core CPU (iirc), AMD does 1 thread per core (because they don't believe in SMT) and have announced a 12 core chip; POWER7 does 4 threads per core, and atm up to 8 cores (32 threads); Suns UltraSparc T3 will feature 16 cores with 8 threads per core (512 threads).

But yes, at the moment of Apples switch, G5 had bad temperature problems. X86, silly as it sounds, ran cooler..


The XBOX 360 runs on a tri-core Power PC.
The Wii runs on its own cutomized "broadway" CPU to be compatible with gekko (not sure if it's power pc).
The Playstation 3 runs on a cell processor, which ISN'T a POWER chip, and was a joint project by IBM and sony (and it could have been some other companies too).

I think the XBOX 360 running on a TRI core power PC is just IBM trying to get back at microsoft. Seriously, TRI core? Reminds me when they removed the windows keys from thinkpads (I'm mad lenovo put them back).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 17:01:07
Cell is a POWER chip (specifically it's a superset of the POWER4 architecture), you can run Yellow Dog Linux on them for example. The Xbox 360 core you speak of is actually based on the Cell - they took out the master core of the Cell and made it an independent CPU.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 14 March 2010, 17:42:52
IMHO Apple made the best (non-Model M) mechanical keyboards of their era. The A9M0330,‎ M0116, M0115, and M3501 were just heavenly typing machines.

I don't think any other ALPS boards compare. Some were more useful (northgate) but none as aesthetically pleasing as the Apples. They sound like music, they're built to the highest standards of quality, and the key feel is superb.

I'm not a fan of the apple "community" though, buncha pretentious know-nothing know-it-alls, that's what they are!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:13:35
The AEKs were not that great IMHO, the Blue Alps keyboards were nicer to type on, and the SGI AT-101s had the same switches, but in my opinion look smarter and are also more readily compatible with modern computers (they came out of the same factory so they were of the same build quality)

Now, an SGI AT-101 with Blue Switches like I have is one heck of a board...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:45:32
Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The XBOX 360 runs on a tri-core Power PC.

Yes, I said it is a PPC

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The Wii runs on its own cutomized "broadway" CPU to be compatible with gekko (not sure if it's power pc).

Yes, both Broadway and Gekko is PPC. Gekko is the same family generation as the Apple G3.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

The Playstation 3 runs on a cell processor, which ISN'T a POWER chip, and was a joint project by IBM and sony (and it could have been some other companies too).


Cell is to a very large degree a PPC architecture, with some additions.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;163997

I think the XBOX 360 running on a TRI core power PC is just IBM trying to get back at microsoft. Seriously, TRI core? Reminds me when they removed the windows keys from thinkpads (I'm mad lenovo put them back).


I doubt this theory, really. Microsoft wanted it that way. Probably they saw three cores (with two threads each) as a good tradeoff between cost and performance.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Sun, 14 March 2010, 18:56:45
Quote from: ch_123;163903
Ah come on, you're giving away the ending!

The problem with IPC is that it's effectively unquantifiable except through benchmarks with a wide variety of applications. The Itanium can theoretically do 6 instructions per clock cycle, but no one actually figured out how to make software that makes use of that ability, so it's around the same as an x86 chip.


True. The other problem arises that when comparing apples to oranges, it's one of the few effective ways to get semi-meaningful datapoints. It's the lesser of two evils, the other being unable to do a comparison at all.

I never liked the middle of a story though. Especially ones about trolls... ;-P
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 14 March 2010, 20:37:34
Quote from: ch_123;163897
Again, proof plx.



Oh dear.

Let me put it this way, ever notice the way that there were Pentium 4s running at 3.8GHz? Notice that they were replaced by processors running between 2-2.8GHz? Do you think that the former are quicker than the latter?


Their replacement processors had multiple cores and superior architecture.

I used Macs for years. I serviced them for years! And I hate the old Mac's for a good reason. Trust me: The G3's and G4's are slow. Even by my standards.

Pentium III processors had some of the best architecture available to the general market at the time period (1999-2002-ish). Apple's iMac's 10 years ago were basically the equivalent of someone selling a single core computer new today and asking $800 for it. Their computers were just lousy. However, today, that isn't the case (Apple's caught up and some of their current models surpass today's standards. But they're all still a little pricey).

In 2001, the school district purchased a whole new fleet of 450Mhz blueberry iMac's for the elementary school. At the high school, where the computer systems ran Windows, they updated the fleet the year before to 933Mhz Micron Clientpro computers. Both the Macs and the Microns had 128MB of PC133 RAM and 10gb hard disks.

You all think Windows 2000 was bad taking 5 minutes to start up? Well, on those iMac's Mac OS 10 took even longer. And their original OS, 9.2, didn't have a screen saver at the log-in screen so it burned right into the screens since not all the staffers turned off their computers routinely.

Trust me. Old PC's are much better than the old Mac's.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Sun, 14 March 2010, 21:16:01
Guys, MW is right here.

Real world actual performance is what he's speaking about, and he's freakin correct, no way to counter it (throw us all the numbers you like, they can't change the reality of how the systems run). It's either the hardware or the software...take your pick. Crappy architecture or crappy software not capable of even BEGINNING to use the hardware properly. I lean towards crappy software because that's the part Apple can easiest cripple...the architecture had good theory behind it.

G3s and G4s (yeah, I've used em both) in general just run like molasses...G3s being quite similar, in fact, to late 68k Macs.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 14 March 2010, 22:20:02
Quote from: kishy;164068
Guys, MW is right here....

G3s and G4s (yeah, I've used em both) in general just run like molasses...G3s being quite similar, in fact, to late 68k Macs.


I think everyone may be right here. I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to the fine details of hardware and I'm pulling this out of memory from almost a decade ago so for what it's worth, I seem to remember stuff running on G3's and G4's on OS 9.x to be rather snappy. It was never as snappy as the laboratory tests that Apple liked to tout when they said that their computers had "Pentium toasting performance," but in apps like Photoshop, I seem to remember the real world performance was at least on par and perhaps slightly better... for a period. It all depends on which frozen moment in time you pick.

You have to remember that at this time some vendors still released packages for the Mac first and the PC second. Adobe and Apple still had a preferred relationship at that time and the Art and Design world were only beginning to hop off the sinking Apple ship so some stuff was still written to favor Macs.

Not very long after that, Apple announced that they were going to start over with a whole new OS. Stuff continued to be developed for Mac Classic, but programming expertise that was still working on Macs started shifting to the OS X environment. You could get stuff that ran in Classic for a few more years, but it wasn't the same.

If there are still G3 and G4 iMacs in use, they've probably since adopted a lot of the dirtier codebase in software releases after Mac Classic got end of life'd.

I was seriously considering switching to Windows around the time of Mac OS 9. It wasn't because of performance issues. It performed just fine and pretty fast on most apps. Software choices were starting to dwindle and toward the later phases of OS 9.x, the system just crashed too much.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 03:55:55
Quote from: microsoft windows;164063
Their replacement processors had multiple cores and superior architecture.

There were dual core G5s released around the same time that Intel and AMD released their offerings. Scratch up another point for Team Clueless!

Quote
I used Macs for years. I serviced them for years! And I hate the old Mac's for a good reason. Trust me: The G3's and G4's are slow. Even by my standards.

Pentium III processors had some of the best architecture available to the general market at the time period (1999-2002-ish). Apple's iMac's 10 years ago were basically the equivalent of someone selling a single core computer new today and asking $800 for it. Their computers were just lousy. However, today, that isn't the case (Apple's caught up and some of their current models surpass today's standards. But they're all still a little pricey).

Again, more assertions.

Quote
In 2001, the school district purchased a whole new fleet of 450Mhz blueberry iMac's for the elementary school. At the high school, where the computer systems ran Windows, they updated the fleet the year before to 933Mhz Micron Clientpro computers. Both the Macs and the Microns had 128MB of PC133 RAM and 10gb hard disks.

You all think Windows 2000 was bad taking 5 minutes to start up? Well, on those iMac's Mac OS 10 took even longer. And their original OS, 9.2, didn't have a screen saver at the log-in screen so it burned right into the screens since not all the staffers turned off their computers routinely.

Right, because I fired up an iMac G3 the other day with OS X 10.4.7 (which would have been a much later version than the one that shipped with the iMac, and therefore more memory intensive) and it was up within a minute or two.

Now, this was with 256MB of RAM, but 256MB is the minimum requirement for 10.4, much in the same way that 128MB is the minimum for the 10 and 10.1, so I think it balances itself out there. I think it demonstrates quite admirably that those machines are not inherently slow if it was in fact a problem with the earlier versions of OS X (which apparently were terrible, but hey, you could have had Windows computers with Vista on them).

Quote from: kishy;164068
Guys, MW is right here.

Real world actual performance is what he's speaking about, and he's freakin correct, no way to counter it

Nonsense, real world performance regularly lies. See my post a page or so back about Windows 7 on two almost identical machines... there's too many variables in the performance equation to dumb it down to an intrinsic problem with either the hardware or the OS.

Oh yeah, and everyone knows that Mac OS 9 sucks. Get over it. As if Microsoft never released multiple disastrous versions of Windows.

Again, I've never owned an Apple computer. I'm not as much pro-Mac as I am anti-idiot.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:02:29
Quote from: ch_123;164131
Nonsense, real world performance regularly lies. See my post a page or so back about Windows 7 on two almost identical machines... there's too many variables in the performance equation to dumb it down to an intrinsic problem with either the hardware or the OS.

Oh yeah, and everyone knows that Mac OS 9 sucks. Get over it. As if Microsoft never released multiple disastrous versions of Windows.

Again, I've never owned an Apple computer. I'm not as much pro-Mac as I am anti-idiot.

Real world performance is the only performance that matters.

Numbers are great for bragging rights.

"My new G900 chip can do three hundred thousand instructions per cycle...and get this, there are three hundred thousand cycles per second!"

Doesn't matter much if it's running like Vista on a 2.2 P4 with 1GB RAM.

The thing with Apple that's so unique and helpful here is how every damned machine of a particular type performs the damned same. 256MB, 512MB, 1GB...no difference for just the OS. Almost certainly you'd see a difference in the behaviour of application software but for the OS and just getting the machine up and going (unlike a "Wintel" system, where the entire system's performance in everything can be on a sliding scale based on RAM...I call this a benefit and good feature in the design of MacOS, that it can run so consistently)...basic tasks like internet browsing, that sort of thing, the G3s (with a version of 9) and G4s (with a version of X) run "equally slower than they should" (that is, the same proportionate amount of fail, not the same apparent speed). 2.2 P4/1GB running Vista comes to mind again.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 10:50:20
Right... but the one I tried ran fine, and I tend to have quite picky standards of 'fine'

My point is that MW unilateraly declared an entire processor architecture and operating system to be bad on the basis of some badly configured machines and a half-baked understanding of what makes a good processor. If I use a slow machine with an Intel processor, can I say that all x86 machines are a 'racket'? No. If I use a slow or unstable Linux system, can I declare all Linux systems to be useless? No. Just because it's a Mac doesn't mean that your arguments don't have to make sense.

Quote
Numbers are great for bragging rights.

"My new G900 chip can do three hundred thousand instructions per cycle...and get this, there are three hundred thousand cycles per second!"

Isn't that what MW was doing, and myself, Insancen and others were saying was stupid?

Quote
unlike a "Wintel" system, where the entire system's performance in everything can be on a sliding scale based on RAM...

Depends on how much RAM you're talking about. To me, Windows 7 performs roughly similar with 1, 2 or 4GB. Of course, this depends on what apps you run and how you run them. For basic net browsing or the like, it doesn't make too much difference.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 15 March 2010, 14:38:18
Quote from: ch_123;164131
There were dual core G5s released around the same time that Intel and AMD released their offerings. Scratch up another point for Team Clueless!


And I wonder why Apple never used them in laptops...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:05:01
As I said above, they were fast chips, but were not good with heat and power consumption.

But hey, around the same time, IBM used to use Pentium 3s in Thinkpads in deference to mobile Pentium 4s for exactly the same reason. Also, there weren't any dual core laptop CPUs from Intel for about 2-3 years after they came out with their desktop ones.

At the end of the day, what happened was that IBM turned away from producing consumer machines in favor of making more and more mainframe stuff. In that end of the market, cooling and energy consumption aren't a huge concern compared with the need for performance. It wasn't profitable for them any more to spend billions making desktop chips when only Apple bought them. That doesn't make POWER a bad architecture, and the new POWER7 is particular is one hell of a CPU.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:17:25
Quote from: microsoft windows;164193
And I wonder why Apple never used them in laptops...


Because they were never intended for them? Have you ever seen a G5 module? Let alone the heatsink they put on it to cool it?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:26:55
Ok, well here is my opinion on Macs:

Mac OS X runs better on PC hardware than on Mac hardware.  That I don't quite understand.  And also, if Apple is so much better than PCs and Microsoft Windows, how come Bill Gates is so much richer?  I think that speaks for the success of PCs right there.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 15:57:55
Oh boy. I don't wanna see where this goes now.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:04:40
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;164211
Ok, well here is my opinion on Macs:

Mac OS X runs better on PC hardware than on Mac hardware.  That I don't quite understand.  And also, if Apple is so much better than PCs and Microsoft Windows, how come Bill Gates is so much richer?  I think that speaks for the success of PCs right there.


(http://img2.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/ab001bd980b901e0440181f1c32634761226380963_full.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:10:07
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs080.snc3/14744_185204766009_185203456009_3542459_2417339_n.jpg)

Not entirely appropriate for the situation, but whatever.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:34:00
Quote from: InSanCen;164207
Because they were never intended for them? Have you ever seen a G5 module? Let alone the heatsink they put on it to cool it?


The Intel processors had superior architecture and were much more efficient, consuming far less power and outputting much less heat. That's a reason why Apple switched. The people at Apple aren't that stupid.

When compared to the Intel processors available at the same time periods, many of the PowerPC cores were simply pieces of garbage. 450Mhz G3 versus 1Ghz Pentium III. 866Mhz G4 versus 2.2Ghz Pentium 4. 1Ghz G4 versus  2.8Ghz Pentium 4. Get the message?

I think there was some change in management when Apple  made the Intel switch since at about the same time, they also gave up on those retarded one-button mice (They have no reason to exist; there's nothing bad about having two buttons or a scrolling wheel)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:43:08
MW...sometimes it seems you argue against yourself...

Frequency has rather little to do with performance.

Try a 150MHz Intel Pentium Pro. Then try a 233MHz Intel Pentium w/MMX. Hey, even better, pair up a 266MHz Intel with a 266MHz AMD K6-2.

PPro stomps the PMMX for real world operation. K6-2 stomps...well you get the idea.

Anything...ANYTHING...to keep us away from the "he's richer so it must be better" discussion. ANYTHING.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 16:43:39
Quote from: microsoft windows;164227
When compared to the Intel processors available at the same time periods, many of the PowerPC cores were simply pieces of garbage. 450Mhz G3 versus 1Ghz Pentium III. 866Mhz G4 versus 2.2Ghz Pentium 4. 1Ghz G4 versus  2.8Ghz Pentium 4. Get the message?

Read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth)

And before you say that that's marketing talk, why did the speed of Intel's CPUs take a sudden drop during 2006?

Quote
The Intel processors had superior architecture and were much more efficient, consuming far less power and outputting much less heat. That's a reason why Apple switched. The people at Apple aren't that stupid.

Of course, whilst Apple was making G5 machines, Intel was making Pentium 4s. We all know how that ended up.

Quote
Anything...ANYTHING...to keep us away from the "he's richer so it must be better" discussion. ANYTHING.

I'll drink to that!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 15 March 2010, 17:12:33
What Steve Jobs did in that "megahertz myth" was he compared a G4 to one of the slow Willamette Pentium 4's. If you compared that G4 to a pentium III the same speed made a few years earlier, you'd get different results. Also, keep in mind that since at the time, Mac OS did not run on x86 CPU's, and Windows does not run on PowerPC's. The task the two machines had to complete was probably just a marketing ploy. Apple probably took the junkiest Pentium 4 system they could find and compare it to one of their systems.

And, the G5's were worse than the Pentium 4's, creating even more heat and drawing even more power. At least people could put Pentium 4's in laptops...

Having to use those old Macs for years, I have experience behind my opinions. With stupid one-button mice, mushy keyboards, and slow hardware, I've developed quite a passionate hatred for those systems.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 17:36:57
Quote from: microsoft windows;164243
What Steve Jobs did in that "megahertz myth" was he compared a G4 to one of the slow Willamette Pentium 4's. If you compared that G4 to a pentium III the same speed made a few years earlier, you'd get different results.

In fairness, the clock-per-clock discrepancy between P3 and P4 wasn't that great. They were showing PPC chips outdoing x86 chips of almost twice the frequency, that's pretty impressive.

Quote
Also, keep in mind that since at the time, Mac OS did not run on x86 CPU's, and Windows does not run on PowerPC's. The task the two machines had to complete was probably just a marketing ploy. Apple probably took the junkiest Pentium 4 system they could find and compare it to one of their systems.

They benchmarked using Photoshop amongst other things, which is quite CPU intensive for some of it's fancier features, and it trashed much faster x86 chips.

You do raise an interesting point in that they were comparing an old NT system to a pretty swish Unix one. I wonder if there are any good Linux benchmarks out there.

Then again, it's hard to know to know just to what extent the OS couldnt be resposible for all that. And there were independent benchmarks that backed up Apple's ones. Obviously people weren't stupid enough to take Apple's word on face value.

Quote
And, the G5's were worse than the Pentium 4's, creating even more heat and drawing even more power. At least people could put Pentium 4's in laptops...

They could put them in laptops, but it made for big laptops that didn't have long battery life.

Quote
With stupid one-button mice

I once plugged a two button mouse into an iMac. It was amazing - my productivity increased by 1000%, I was able to complete fifty tasks at once, my scalability and corporate mission-critical enterprise capability also shot up. Meanwhile, world hunger was single-handedly solved, and Dita von Teese jumped out of my monitor to perform an act of fellatio upon me.

...

Either that, or nothing happened, because Mac OS X is designed primarily to make use of keyboard shorcuts in deference to having lots of mouse buttons.

Mushy keyboards? Apple, and everyone else in the market at that time. Whatever.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:05:02
I never got the reason behind Apple's one button mice. There probably wasn't one.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:14:49
Mac users would say "I never got the reason behind Microsoft's two button mice. There probably wasn't one." Unix users who traditionally had three button mice would say the same thing.

All these things are matters of opinion. Just because it's different to what you use, doesn't make it stupid.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:20:34
I have one of the original optical mice -

(http://www.telltronics.org/hardware/sunmouse/m-im001198.jpg)

Cant use it because it's Sun-DIN only.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:25:18
Yeah, I actually remember the Alto after I made that post and modified it accordingly.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:49:22
And then there's this:

(http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/openoffice-mouse.jpg)

But we've already made fun of it here.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:56:50
I'm trying to get a loan of the Mighty Mouse to play around with it. I also intend on reinstalling OS X onto a Power Mac G4 I found so that I can actually play around with this "Mac" thing that people have been talking about so much.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Mon, 15 March 2010, 18:59:07
Quote from: ch_123;164284
I'm trying to get a loan of the Mighty Mouse to play around with it. I also intend on reinstalling OS X onto a Power Mac G4 I found so that I can actually play around with this "Mac" thing that people have been talking about so much.


I can never keep track of which is which...is the Mighty Mouse the wired one with little scroll ball, or Bluetooth wireless one with touch scrolling?

In the case of the latter don't bother, the latency is REALLY bad...I notice this and all I'm doing is basic use stuff for the most part. You may have seen the old PS/2 wireless ball mouse I use on my 286 from time to time...it tracks better with less latency.

The one with the little ball should be similar to the slightly earlier semitransparent optical ones.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 15 March 2010, 19:04:13
The touch one is the "Magic Mouse" because it's like, magic...

>_>

The one with the little ball is the Mighty Mouse, although it was renamed "Apple Mouse" after a perhiperal company threatened to sue them (and no, it wasn't our favorite boys in Kentucky... it was some company that made regular mice...)

I have one of the Pro Mice, which I quite liked except that whatever about using one button mice under OS X, under Windows and Linux, it's very limiting.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 15 March 2010, 19:21:33
Apple's Mighty Mouse isn't all that good. It has two buttons, but they're both under one plastic piece so it's hard to right-click. But I guess with some getting used to, they're usable.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 15 March 2010, 20:40:00
Quote from: ch_123;164269
Mac users would say "I never got the reason behind Microsoft's two button mice. There probably wasn't one." Unix users who traditionally had three button mice would say the same thing.

All these things are matters of opinion. Just because it's different to what you use, doesn't make it stupid.


There is a good reason for two buttons, one for regular clicking, and the second for context menus. Don't get me started on that whole "holding control" thing.

Quote from: microsoft windows;164262
I never got the reason behind Apple's one button mice. There probably wasn't one.


Probably simplicity, aesthetics and "uniqueness" over functionality and uniform.

Quote from: kishy;164280
And then there's this:

Show Image
(http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/openoffice-mouse.jpg)


But we've already made fun of it here.


I actually like the shiny light lavender/grey buttons on that.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 15 March 2010, 23:30:42
Quote from: ripster;164272
I guess 3 buttons were a Sun Unix thing but according to Wikipedia on mice this Xerox Parc Alto computer mouse is the real granddaddy of 3 buttons.  $400 Mouse! (http://www.oldmouse.com/articles/xerox/Alto.shtml)
Show Image
(http://www.oldmouse.com/pics/xerox/RG-AltoTop.jpg)


Wikipedia DOES say Apple did 4 button testing but settled on the one button design.  And back to the OP.  This proves Apple users are stupider.


Here's the granddaddy of that granddaddy.
Douglas Engelbart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart) made the first wooden shell prototype while at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) in 1964.

(http://edwindwianto.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/douglas-engelbart-worlds-first-mouse.jpg)

He later invented a three button mouse for the NLS (computer system) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLS_%28computer_system%29) which was shown in 1968 at "The Mother of All Demos" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos).

(http://www.mousearena.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/douglas-engelbart-first-mouse.jpg)
(http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/gallery/slides1/mice/mouse1-1.jpg)
(http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/gallery/slides1/mice/mouse1-2.jpg)

He applied for a patent on the mouse in 1967 which he received in 1970.  Many top SRI researchers left, with many ending up at Xerox PARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC), taking the mouse idea with them.  He never received any royalties for his mouse invention. During an interview, he says "SRI patented the mouse, but they really had no idea of its value. Some years later it was learned that they had licensed it to Apple for something like $40,000."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 16 March 2010, 01:15:48
Quote from: TexasFlood;164339
Here's the granddaddy of that granddaddy.
Douglas Engelbart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart) made the first wooden shell prototype while at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) in 1964.


I happened to end up at a Christmas party at Douglas Engelbart's house a few years ago through a friend who knew him. Not surprisingly, he lives in a very upscale neighborhood. The guy's an engineer to the core and still has one of the most obvious habits of an engineer. There's old electronics lying around in various states of disassembly. Right at the front door, underneath a framed letter from President Richard Nixon was an old yellowed monitor that was old enough that I couldn't identify the make or model. I laughed when I saw that after walking in the door. It made me realize "ok, this guy's a giant, but he's the real deal, but still real person."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 16 March 2010, 01:35:56
Quote from: EverythingIBM;164318
Probably simplicity, aesthetics and "uniqueness" over functionality and uniform.

Remember the historical context though. Apple computers at that time  sported a retro rainbow logo at a time when owning a computer of any kind was not a badge of coolness. The one button thing was probably not a fashion decision.

Two button mice did not become a default option on Windows until Windows 3.0 (~1991) and a lot of people were still needing to use a hybrid of DOS/Windows on their computers. A 1-button mouse around that era isn't as ridiculous of an idea as it seems now. As to why they stuck with the 1 button mouse long after the fact... go figure. You can't say it was a Steve edict though. He wasn't there at the time when 2 button mice became commonplace.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 16 March 2010, 08:30:37
Quote from: hyperlinked;164367
I happened to end up at a Christmas party at Douglas Engelbart's house a few years ago through a friend who knew him. Not surprisingly, he lives in a very upscale neighborhood. The guy's an engineer to the core and still has one of the most obvious habits of an engineer. There's old electronics lying around in various states of disassembly. Right at the front door, underneath a framed letter from President Richard Nixon was an old yellowed monitor that was old enough that I couldn't identify the make or model. I laughed when I saw that after walking in the door. It made me realize "ok, this guy's a giant, but he's the real deal, but still real person."

Send him an email telling him about Retr0bright (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/), :smile:, although he might not care from the sound of it.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: EverythingIBM on Tue, 16 March 2010, 20:21:16
Quote from: hyperlinked;164369
Remember the historical context though. Apple computers at that time  sported a retro rainbow logo at a time when owning a computer of any kind was not a badge of coolness. The one button thing was probably not a fashion decision.

Two button mice did not become a default option on Windows until Windows 3.0 (~1991) and a lot of people were still needing to use a hybrid of DOS/Windows on their computers. A 1-button mouse around that era isn't as ridiculous of an idea as it seems now. As to why they stuck with the 1 button mouse long after the fact... go figure. You can't say it was a Steve edict though. He wasn't there at the time when 2 button mice became commonplace.


Jobs DID go away from the ridiculous "one button mouse" in his NeXT computers. But those weren't the "computers for the rest of us", you needed the big bucks.

I think the Commodore 64 did a lot more than the silly old apple products. Apple never had great music, graphics, or anything of the sort (and it wasn't until IBM released the first colour CRT that they finally deviated away from monochrome).
And what about the Atari ST? It had a built in MIDI port and had the first version of cubase on it.
   First colour monitor? IBM, not apple.
First revolutionary music chip? Commodore, not apple.
First revolutionary graphical system? Amiga, not apple.
First music workstation? Atari, not apple.

In fact, I can't really draw anything revolutionary from apple once I put it all in perspective. A rainbow logo (against yellowing cheap plastic) is hardly convincing for innovation.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Tue, 16 March 2010, 20:37:12
Apple made it "easy" and "accessible".

The real question is actually what "it" is.

I give props...and anti-props, in fact...to Apple for making technology freindly and more or less easy to get into. Great introduction to the world of computers. Anything beyond an introduction though...not so much.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 16 March 2010, 21:07:36
Quote from: ch_123;164232
And before you say that that's marketing talk, why did the speed of Intel's CPUs take a sudden drop during 2006?!

According to a friend high at NVIDIA, Intel killed the P4 because P4 architecture hit a performance ceiling circa 2003, and found no improvement could be accomplished without infringing on NVIDIA patents. Suddenly Intel was interested in negotiating with NVIDIA for a cross-licensing agreement, which became visible here (http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_17070.html). NVIDIA was granted the Intel FSB license for nForce, and the Intel Centrino was born, featuring low power rather than MHz.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Tue, 16 March 2010, 21:26:08
Quote from: ricercar;164659
According to a friend high at NVIDIA, Intel killed the P4 because P4 architecture hit a performance ceiling circa 2003, and found no improvement could be accomplished without infringing on NVIDIA patents. Suddenly Intel was interested in negotiating with NVIDIA for a cross-licensing agreement, which became visible here (http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_17070.html). NVIDIA was granted the Intel FSB license for nForce, and the Intel Centrino was born, featuring low power rather than MHz.

"The Intel Centrino"

Centrino is a term which refers to the combination of particular hardware in a mobile computer, not any specific processor.

IIRC - Intel Mobile Chipset, Intel Wireless, Intel CPU

Ex. One of the two Inspiron 630m laptops in this house is Centrino, one is not.

Centrino:
Intel Pentium M 740, 1.7GHz
Intel 915 chipset
Intel 2915ABG wireless

Non-Centrino:
Intel Pentium M 740, 1.7GHz
Intel 915 chipset
Dell/Broadcom wireless

But ultimately the point you made still stands strong and tall. Just bugs me when people identify the Pentium M as a "Centrino".
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 17 March 2010, 03:31:39
Quote from: ricercar;164659
According to a friend high at NVIDIA, Intel killed the P4 because P4 architecture hit a performance ceiling circa 2003, and found no improvement could be accomplished without infringing on NVIDIA patents. Suddenly Intel was interested in negotiating with NVIDIA for a cross-licensing agreement, which became visible here (http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_17070.html). NVIDIA was granted the Intel FSB license for nForce, and the Intel Centrino was born, featuring low power rather than MHz.

Well, the main problem was that no one really knew how much of a problem heat and electricity would become, it was thought that it would scale hapily to 10GHz by 2005. What they got instead was an expensive, hot chip that no one really wanted.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 17 March 2010, 10:40:24
Quote from: ch_123;164707
Well, the main problem was that no one really knew how much of a problem heat and electricity would become, it was thought that it would scale hapily to 10GHz by 2005. What they got instead was an expensive, hot chip that no one really wanted.


We'll never keep up with Moore's law unless chip designers learn there is a 3rd dimension.

"Their pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."


Stop messing about guys, and build something like this:
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 17 March 2010, 11:01:27
Quote from: Rajagra;164795
"Their pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."


LOL! One of my favorite movies! I run an outdoor movie series in the summer and that was one of our picks last year. Ah memories!

Though I gotta say that one scene you referenced is a bit of a plot hole. The super-intelligent super-human who mastered starship operations by cramming down the manual couldn't figure out how to put his car in reverse or something like that.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 17 March 2010, 11:20:13
Quote from: hyperlinked;164800
I gotta say that one scene you referenced is a bit of a plot hole. The super-intelligent super-human who mastered starship operations by cramming down the manual couldn't figure out how to put his car in reverse or something like that.

Doesn't quite match the original meeting with Khan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_c1Odol9xw&feature=related), where Kirk defeats superhuman, megabrain Khan by pulling a blunt object from a console and using it to smack him upside the head.

Khan: "I have five times your strength, you are no match for me!"
Kirk:  "Eat lead pipe, Khan!"

Spock: "Hah! He wasn't expecting lead pipes to be laying around on a starship. He has no experience of how illogical humans are."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 17 March 2010, 20:39:13
Quote from: webwit;164990
Ehm, Apple HHKB, Apple 3 button mouse?

http://stores.ebay.com/Early-Apple_Other_W0QQ_fsubZ1QQ_sidZ998235743QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

Interesting.  That mouse has a lot of similarities to the Douglas Engelbart mice from my earlier post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=164339&postcount=78).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 17 March 2010, 21:50:44
Apple is always detracted for having one button mice, but they recently put zero-button trackpads on all laptops, and have button-free looks, at any rate.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: elservo on Wed, 17 March 2010, 22:42:31
I can safely say the zero button glass trackpad on the Macbook is the finest way to work with an OS that I've ever experienced.  I don't know how I lived without it.

And no, I wouldn't drink Steve Jobs' bath water.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: D-EJ915 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 13:05:12
oooh megahertz myth!! so exciting, let's see some numbers shall we
SPEC95 int/fp
1995
Code: [Select]

AlphaServer 8400 5/350 21164 (EV5) 350 10.1 14.2
Intel Alder System (200MHz, 256KB L2) Pentium Pro 200 8.9 6.75
HP 9000 C160 PA 8000 160 10.4 16.3
SGI Origin 200 MIPS R10k 180 8.59 15.6

2000
Code: [Select]

AlphaServer ES40 6/833 21264 (EV6) 833 50.0 100.0
Intel VC820 motherboard Pentium III 1000 46.8 31.9
HP 9000 C3600 PA-8600 552 42.1 64.0
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 13:39:14
This of course teaches us what we already know - x86 blows.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Mercen_505 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:10:17
Aloooominum keyboard.

Once upon a time Apple was the ****. Now they're just a name brand like any other.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:30:57
I think the lack of travel and tactility in the aluminum keyboard is intentional - it's to get the fanbois prepped for when they switch over to button-less keyboards.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:31:41
Quote from: ch_123;165172
This of course teaches us what we already know - x86 blows.


Blows? Sure.

I'd argue it's the most useful architecture though, based on how the industry adopted it in such a widespread manner. Powerful, perhaps not, but just about anything you want to do can be done in some capacity on x86, with spotty chances for success on other arc's.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: D-EJ915 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:35:37
Depends on what you are going to be using it for, you can make pretty much any of them do what you want, just depends on how you are going to go about doing it.

(http://www.jessanderson.org/img/ssn688a.jpg)

HP parisc/9000/visualize machines sure are nice though :)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:37:07
Quote from: kishy;165195
I'd argue it's the most useful architecture though, based on how the industry adopted it in such a widespread manner.


Quote
And also, if Apple is so much better than PCs and Microsoft Windows, how come Bill Gates is so much richer?


Discuss.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:39:41
Quote from: ch_123;165198
Discuss.

Oh come on, you must have missed where I specifically said I had no desire to see that topic open up...

Bill Gates is rich because his software company was able to produce - whether by licensing or creating, there is no difference to the end user - products that are easy to use, perceived to be the best, and powerful enough to satisfy the needs of professionals. Although security is not an inherent feature of most of the products, they are capable of being secured enough to satisfy the needs of even governments.

The products do not excel particularly well in any area except popularity, and through agreements with OEMs much money is made off of software not worth its price tag.

There, done.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:44:52
The reason I quoted that is because your statement on x86, whilst not offensively retarded like the Bill Gates thing, suffers the same problem - you have to ask yourself - why is x86 popular? The answer is that x86 is popular because it's the 'tel in Wintel. What if IBM decided to use the 68k, or if they used the IBM 801 and sold it to anyone who wanted? x86 would be a quaint afterthought that only the nerdiest would know about. Maybe you'd find it in network controllers, or some USAF radar designed in the 80s, but it wouldn't be adopted like it has been today on it's own merits.

The problem with non-x86 architectures? Marketing. They were all designed by old behemoths who thought the PC industry was a passing fad, and they they could survive on selling to high end and niche markets. Not even Intel's attempts at doing that worked... most of the other companies that did it don't even exist any more. It's simple economics - people like mass produced things because they're cheap, and everyone uses them. Especially now that the tech world is moving towards parallelism. Sure the PA-RISC or Alpha is twice as fast as the equivalent x86, but I can buy 3-4 x86 for the same price.

Shame it works like that really. Computers will just become another generic mass produced appliance, all the fun has gone out of them.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 18 March 2010, 14:48:59
Looking at that pic, it looks like at least one of the tips might not be all that great.  For him, at least.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Thu, 18 March 2010, 15:12:11
Quote from: ch_123;165201
The reason I quoted that is because your statement on x86, whilst not offensively retarded like the Bill Gates thing, suffers the same problem - you have to ask yourself - why is x86 popular? The answer is that x86 is popular because it's the 'tel in Wintel. What if IBM decided to use the 68k, or if they used the IBM 801 and sold it to anyone who wanted? x86 would be a quaint afterthought that only the nerdiest would know about. Maybe you'd find it in network controllers, or some USAF radar designed in the 80s, but it wouldn't be adopted like it has been today on it's own merits.

The problem with non-x86 architectures? Marketing. They were all designed by old behemoths who thought the PC industry was a passing fad, and they they could survive on selling to high end and niche markets. Not even Intel's attempts at doing that worked... most of the other companies that did it don't even exist any more. It's simple economics - people like mass produced things because they're cheap, and everyone uses them. Especially now that the tech world is moving towards parallelism. Sure the PA-RISC or Alpha is twice as fast as the equivalent x86, but I can buy 3-4 x86 for the same price.

Shame it works like that really. Computers will just become another generic mass produced appliance, all the fun has gone out of them.


That's actually what I had been trying to say. It became popular for 'whatever reason' but certainly wasn't the best. As a consequence of becoming popular - again without regard for why - more stuff was developed for it, making it the only viable choice if you want the level of flexibility many people do want.

I'd have been interested in seeing where 68k could have gone, what it could have evolved into, if only because it was an interesting bit of weirdness.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Thu, 18 March 2010, 20:10:55
As we have now moved onto uArch, I'll second the notion that, ignoring commercial factors, 680x0 series chips were awesome, and ahead of their time.

I have a friend with a very souped up Atari. IIRC, it's running an 030 at ~100Mhz (I'll ask again, he's probably added more since). What it can do (And the efficiency of the programming) is simply stunning for what is essentially rather old kit. He was saying (Again IIRC) that people are knocking out 060 "clones" of the Atari. Plenty of RAM (~1GB), decent Graphics (Radeon 7000 series), and the storage tacked onto these systems (They sure as hell don't need it due to the aforementioned great programming) is immense, SCSI is preferred, though I do seem to remember someone had hacked IDE onto something somewhere. Full Multitasking OS too, but bollocks if I can remember the name of it, and I'm too damn lazy to google it at the moment.

I was tempted to do an MS Windows, and denounce anything other than my Beloved Zilog Z80. x86, or 64bit? Who needs all those fancy features, my Spectrum +3 has a Floppy drive, and can play games as well as doing my home accounts, it even says all of this, right there on the box!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Thu, 18 March 2010, 20:17:53
Can't wait to get a high-density floppy card for my XT rebuild. Then I'll have a fully operational 8088 system (x86, sure, but whatever).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 03:25:05
Some day I'll fit the one true computer into my bedroom -

(http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~rdv/keio/sfc/teaching/architecture/architecture-2008/netbsd-vax11-780.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 19 March 2010, 05:51:31
Quote from: InSanCen;165264
I'll second the notion that, ignoring commercial factors, 680x0 series chips were awesome, and ahead of their time.

Damn straight. Back then x86 chips took an obscene number of clock cycles per instruction (yes, cycles per instruction, not the other way around) and needed clumsy workarounds to extend address space. The 68000s were remarkably sophisticated and powerful in comparison. Not sure why Kishy describes them as an interesting bit of weirdness.

At the risk of ignoring the thread title, I think Apple is partly responsible for the demise of the 68000 line. If they had charged more reasonable prices for their systems (as Atari did) who knows what we'd all be using today?

The ST ran TOS. "The Operating System" or "Tramiel Operating System" depending who you believe.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 06:26:40
Quote from: webwit;165339
The Cray-2 looks better.


Supposedly the Crays were built in that 'pacman' shape in order to cut down on the distance between components, and thus decreasing propagation delays caused by long wires.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 19 March 2010, 07:38:52
Quote from: Rajagra;165340
At the risk of ignoring the thread title, I think Apple is partly responsible for the demise of the 68000 line. If they had charged more reasonable prices for their systems (as Atari did) who knows what we'd all be using today?

You have an ST Raj? There seriously are 060 modded versions of the Falcon floating around out there? I'd love to see that!

I hear what you're saying about efficient programming. My dad bought one of the first 1040STs that came out and it served me well for... damn... I'm just now realizing how long I had that thing. I used that thing daily for almost 8 years and it never broke down on me and I never felt like I needed to upgrade in order to be able to run the latest software packages effectively. @*$#! 8 Years through all of high school and a few years of college on that funky mushy grey keyboard. No wonder I have such a soft spot for that thing. Except for a replacement disk drive, I retired that thing as it was the day I opened the box. The mouse even survived the entire 8 years.

Anyway, there's one thing the Cray-1 had over it's #2... lounge space! Mix a cocktail, dim the lights, and turn the stereo on... the Cray-1 is ready to entertain with style!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8524&stc=1&d=1269002254)

Any of you who live in the Silicon Valley area, make a visit to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View if you haven't been there yet... some pretty cool computing artifacts are in there waiting for you.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 19 March 2010, 09:12:39
An awesome thing about those big Cray systems is you walk up to them and they are dead silent.  No loud datacenter sound of screaming fans. But they would definitely make great decor.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Fri, 19 March 2010, 09:35:51
Quote from: Rajagra;165340
The 68000s were remarkably sophisticated and powerful in comparison. Not sure why Kishy describes them as an interesting bit of weirdness.

Retrospectively, and from the perspective of someone who wasn't really able to see them in their peak.

And late 68k Macs (my only hands-on 68k experience) couldn't have possibly been their peak...-040 Macs are suckers.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Fri, 19 March 2010, 10:42:37
Quote from: didjamatic;165374
An awesome thing about those big Cray systems is you walk up to them and they are dead silent.  No loud datacenter sound of screaming fans. But they would definitely make great decor.


Unless you count the $20,000 in electricity it took to operate it as noise.

Had it been fan cooled, I'm sure it would have sounded like a jet turbine. ;)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Fri, 19 March 2010, 10:59:54
They still make very stylish couches for the break room (like at my new workplace).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: TexasFlood on Fri, 19 March 2010, 11:03:09
Quote from: hyperlinked;165395
Unless you count the $20,000 in electricity it took to operate it as noise.

Had it been fan cooled, I'm sure it would have sounded like a jet turbine. ;)

They did generate a lot of heat.  I recall one that was in a relatively small lab when the water based cooling system for the room developed a leak and had to be shut down.  We had to shut the Cray down.  Still got pretty damn warm in there but think it would have been fatal if the Cray had still been running.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: InSanCen on Fri, 19 March 2010, 17:26:12
Quote from: hyperlinked;165357
There seriously are 060 modded versions of the Falcon floating around out there? I'd love to see that!


The Hades 060 is the one that comes immediatly to mind.

My friend is running a CT63 (http://www.powerphenix.com/CT60/english/welcome.htm) at ~100Mhz
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 20 April 2010, 04:29:34
Quote from: kishy;164287
I can never keep track of which is which...is the Mighty Mouse the wired one with little scroll ball, or Bluetooth wireless one with touch scrolling?

In the case of the latter don't bother, the latency is REALLY bad...I notice this and all I'm doing is basic use stuff for the most part. You may have seen the old PS/2 wireless ball mouse I use on my 286 from time to time...it tracks better with less latency.

The one with the little ball should be similar to the slightly earlier semitransparent optical ones.


I used one of these the other day in a computer store. I thought they were a definite improvement over the Mighty Mouse in most departments, and I didnt notice any lag issues.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Tue, 20 April 2010, 13:14:59
Hmm...maybe something to do with the software setup on my friend's hackintosh (that's where I've used it).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 20 April 2010, 14:50:18
Haha, there's your problem right there.

I mean, it wasn't the sort of thing that made you think "OMG I HAVE TO HAVE ONE OF THESE" but it was probably the best mouse you're likely to get free with a computer, albeit a €1,100 one...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: vyshane on Sun, 25 April 2010, 21:30:51
Quote from: kishy;173800
Hmm...maybe something to do with the software setup on my friend's hackintosh (that's where I've used it).


Mouse lag is a known issue with nvidia cards in hackintoshes. Likely not magic mouse related.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Sun, 25 April 2010, 22:07:00
Yeah he's got a GeForce Go something-or-other. That'd do it, I suppose.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 25 April 2010, 23:48:34
Quote from: ch_123;165325
Some day I'll fit the one true computer into my bedroom -
I recently learned one interesting thing about the VAX. At least two models (the 6500 and the 8800) included the option of vector operations which were of a similar type to those of the Cray-1. And the architecture also provided for packed decimal operations.

I like that kind of versatility. And it even has the IBM 360 architecture beat, because while there were vector attachments for the 370, they were only the memory-to-memory kind, not including vector registers, which greatly enhanced the performance of the Cray.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 26 April 2010, 00:08:58
Quote from: hyperlinked;163594
Ever since the iPad announcement, the knives have been out on every forum online that doesn't have a pro-Apple slant to it. Look, I get it. A lot of people are annoyed at the spin factory that is part of the Apple operation and a lot of people even dislike their products for substantial technical reasons. This is all fine. You have every right to your opinion and I completely agree that a lot of Apple stuff is more hype than substance and some of it is even all hype and no substance.

I own a number of Apple products and while I'm no fanboy, it's just tiresome to see every other thread digress into Apple bashing when it's not even relevant. The more it happens, the more it'll attract people who want to flame anything Apple and probably some people who worship the Steve and see it as their religous duty to defend the Apple crest to this site. GeekHack will become just like every other tech discussion site that lost its desire to actually have real discussions. It'll be a bunch of people screaming at each other with the ones who are the most extreme in their positions gaining the most attention. It's poisonous for bashing of any sort to become the way people bond on a site so please give it a rest.

There are plenty of sites that are all about hating Apple, hating Microsoft, hating Linux, hating PCs, hating the Steve, hating the Bill... If this kind of thing makes your **** bigger, go there and you'll have an 80 foot Johnson in a week. Please don't turn this site into another one of those sites.

An in very un-GeekHack like fasion, I'll end by saying "Thank you."


replying belatedly to the original post...

I have a friend who I used to work with who's been an apple guy all his life. I've been a PC guy all my life. We kind of look upon each others world with a mixture of curiosity and suspicion. Every now and then we have huge arguments about whether MS or Apple is less evil (an argument that is, of course, fairly pointless).  Once we had such a bad argument over MS/Apple that we didnt talk for 2 months. Seems pretty silly in retrospect.

I think its because computer familiarity is like learning a first language, and people will always be more familiar with their first language, and their first computing culture, and like ethnicity or religion, will tend to defend it if too harshly attacked.  I just met my friend over the weekend (hadnt seen him in a year) and we promptly had another MS/Apple argument (over the ipad of course).

But we're both older now and thankfully a bit more mature.  I conceded that I'd probably be buying one, and conceded some of its marvelous aspects that MS ought to take inspiration from. He conceded some of its limitations (usb, printing, flash, etc) and conceded Apple today is probably everything he once used to call MS.

Sad thing is, it took us nearly 10 years of arguing this to get to the point where we can diplomatically recognize the other's point of view on this topic.

Still, thats progress I guess.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 26 April 2010, 01:34:44
Quote from: wellington1869;176010
Sad thing is, it took us nearly 10 years of arguing this to get to the point where we can diplomatically recognize the other's point of view on this topic.

Still, thats progress I guess.

That's good to hear for you and your friend. It's all bull**** and totally not worth it. The last time I felt compelled to get all huffy about what was the best computer was when I was 15 and owned an Atari 1040ST and the Atari folks didn't like the Commodore Amiga folks or the PC folks or the Apple folks. That's a lot of people to hate and even if you truly believed you supported the best, it got old to hate the rest of the world.

It's a pile of silica, plastic, metal, and glass. If you have a good experience, feel free to practice unabashed brand loyalty because your time is valuable. There are different reasons for owning hardware and other people have different needs and everything out there exists in an ecosystem. You might not be able to have one without the other(s).

Why am I primarily a Mac user? It's very simple and it's what I tell people when they ask me what kind of computer they should buy. No, I don't tell them buy what I own. I tell them to buy what their friends or closest associates own because they're going to need support and software recommendations. When I had to pack my Atari ST into a box as an artifact, most of my friends owned a Mac so I bought one of those.

Now, hopefully you and your friend don't just start arguing about something else. Maybe you guys just like to debate. ;) As long as it works for both of you, I guess that's ok. I have a friend who's a lawyer and man does that guy just like to argue about anything! It's fun to him.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 26 April 2010, 14:44:05
Quote from: webwit;176041
I agree this discussion is irrelevant. The Amiga was way better. The Atari was like her ugly sister, who no one wants to date. I'll get into more details once I settled the ZX Spectrum/Commodore 64 war.


No it's not! No it's not!

You know, I never realized until the other day that the Atari ST was basically designed by ex-Commodore engineers and that the Amiga was the work of ex-Atari engineers.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Nonmouse on Mon, 26 April 2010, 14:56:10
Yeah, Apple does make some worthwhile products...

(http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129154217274711505.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kode on Mon, 26 April 2010, 23:20:28
This ripster?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ntr23/sets/72157623793156013/

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4545963437_c6c82d357b.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 26 April 2010, 23:44:42
Quote from: kode;176433
This ripster?


Black n red. Looks like rip to me.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: xsphat on Tue, 27 April 2010, 00:10:45
Quote from: Nonmouse;176215
Yeah, Apple does make some worthwhile products...

Show Image
(http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129154217274711505.jpg)



OMG that is great. I have a burned out Mac Mini in my closet, maybe I should do that.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 27 April 2010, 00:22:44
Quote from: hyperlinked;176030
Now, hopefully you and your friend don't just start arguing about something else. Maybe you guys just like to debate. ;) As long as it works for both of you, I guess that's ok. I have a friend who's a lawyer and man does that guy just like to argue about anything! It's fun to him.


yea we tend to 'debate' a bit too much probably :)  If we're not arguing about computers then its politics.  
Funny thing is we're both leftists, but we still find like a 5% difference to fight over :)  Most of the time its just good fun though.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 27 April 2010, 01:18:28
Quote from: wellington1869;176457
yea we tend to 'debate' a bit too much probably :)  If we're not arguing about computers then its politics.  
Funny thing is we're both leftists, but we still find like a 5% difference to fight over :)  Most of the time its just good fun though.

I think you might be friends with the same argument-loving friend of mine. I didn't realize he spent time in NY. ;)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Specter_57 on Tue, 27 April 2010, 05:43:59
..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9489&stc=1&d=1272365033).
.
...............
Spec_57
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 27 April 2010, 07:01:27
(http://www.unplggd.com/uimages/unplggd/093008_an_g4cube_tissue.jpg) (http://www.unplggd.com/unplggd/roundup/roundup-5-clever-reuses-for-your-g4-cube-064659)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 27 April 2010, 14:03:47
Quote from: Specter_57;176522
..

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9489&stc=1&d=1272365033)
.
.
...............
Spec_57


For wiping the Crapple off your ass.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 27 April 2010, 14:08:24
Quote from: microsoft windows;176645
For wiping the Crapple off your ass.

That's pretty funny.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Specter_57 on Tue, 27 April 2010, 19:13:09
..
The image in post #140....

I wonder if you could gut out the crap of the original and replace it with a bread toaster....?


and then, I present to you...

"the MACQuarium..."

http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=mac+aquarium&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=33zXS7HDPMWqlAeU1cGGBA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQsAQwAw (http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=mac+aquarium&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=33zXS7HDPMWqlAeU1cGGBA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQsAQwAw)

.
.
.
...............
Spec_57
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Tue, 27 April 2010, 19:30:49
I prefer the one made out of a PS/2 Model 25.

Apparently IBM even made better fishtanks than Apple ever could.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 27 April 2010, 19:40:21
That makes  sense. Apple never beats IBM quality.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 01:01:53
actual product (http://www.amazon.com/iCarta-iPod-Stereo-Tissue-Holder/dp/B000HWX1J8)

(http://thinkstorm.com/dumpmeter/images/icarta-ipod-roll_FULL.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 28 April 2010, 02:12:33
Quote from: wellington1869;176766
actual product (http://www.amazon.com/iCarta-iPod-Stereo-Tissue-Holder/dp/B000HWX1J8)


Yo Dawg, I put an iPod in your iPoo so you can Mac while you crap!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 28 April 2010, 02:47:09
NoooooPoooooooo on uuuuuu!

*Its troll week on GH*
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 28 April 2010, 02:53:06
You know it's bad when the OP is trolling his own thread.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 28 April 2010, 06:52:14
I have nothing against Apple. But it's wise to be cautious when someone tries to tempt you with something new.

Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:24:01
Quote from: Rajagra;176771
Yo Dawg, I put an iPod in your iPoo so you can Mac while you crap!


Hahahahahahahahaha

I'd like to see an apple ad with a rap in it. The music they play in their ads is SO white trash. Flowers and butterflies and "indy" young women with acoustic guitars in a starbucks singing about love or something.  Blech.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:41:19
Agreed, the "Apple music" is a strange phase in the history of music. I call it "garbage" since it is...

Of course, about 300% of modern music is garbage anyway, so maybe it's not so bad when put in the context of other "modern music" considering that.

Know what song makes me want to punch random strangers? Feist, anything by Feist, doesn't matter what the song is, she sounds ANNOYING.

Interesting fact: studies were able to confirm that something about the tone and frequency of most female voices makes males very irritated when they hear it.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:44:07
Quote from: wellington1869;176809
I'd like to see an apple ad with a rap in it. The music they play in their ads is SO white trash. Flowers and butterflies and "indy" young women with acoustic guitars in a starbucks singing about love or something.  Blech.

Find an ad from any Fortune 500 company that uses rap for marketing. I can't think of any, but then again the only TV I watch is hockey.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:45:32
Quote from: kishy;176815

Of course, about 300% of modern music is garbage anyway,


agreed 1000 percent :)

you know which song makes me want to punch strangers? This one in this chrysler ad:

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">
[/youtube]
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:48:28
Quote from: hyperlinked;176818
Find an ad from any Fortune 500 company that uses rap for marketing. I can't think of any, but then again the only TV I watch is hockey.


you're right. The only rap ads i've ever seen on tv are for local companies.

This one comes on late at night here, I always thought it was hilarious. For a local law firm.
> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">
[/youtube]

they have a sequel, too.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:52:44
MY EARS. MY EARS.

Where's a stranger when you need one?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:55:00
Quote from: kishy;176823
MY EARS. MY EARS.

Where's a stranger when you need one?


lol

i dont know whats more irritating, that song or a minivan full of self-satisfied bourgeoise women in their 30s.

(yea, she's a milf tho. just a horrible taste in music ;)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:55:39
Quote from: kishy;176823
Where's a stranger when you need one?


Just sit on your hand for a few minutes and...

Oh, not that "stranger?"
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:00:05
You know what makes me want to punch strangers in the face?

Strangers.  Strangers and bums.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:00:18
Quote from: wellington1869;176825
lol

i dont know whats more irritating, that song or a minivan full of self-satisfied bourgeoise women in their 30s.


Both. They are both equally more annoying than each other.

Quote from: itlnstln;176826
Just sit on your hand for a few minutes and...

Oh, not that "stranger?"


i lol'd
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:00:56
Ripster...I will debox your NIB keyboards if you don't stop.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:06:45
OMG, so thats feist! OMG, I hate feist.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:25:55
> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]

There was once a time you could find a bunch of ZZ Top vids on YouTube. Unfortunately very few are left...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:28:00
there was a time when indy was cool...

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 28 April 2010, 11:11:16
I think the Macintosh is a nice wonderful computer. It would be good if it were more successful, so that Microsoft faced real competition.

As for the iPad, though, while I'm sure that some people will find a use for it, the App Store issue has basically scared me away. If I'm going to pay for a computer, I want a computer.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 12:43:35
why cant kids like this get record deals or ads?

I dont know if anyone here watched the PBS multi-part documentary called "Carrier". It was a week they spent on an aircraft carrier in the persian gulf, following the grunts around, documenting their daily lives. Absolutely fantastic documentary. This song was sung on the show by one of the grunts from hawaii playing just a ukulele.  

This is a PBS-edited music video. They did a terrific job.

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">
[/youtube]

The poor kid is probably working in a 7-11 somewhere now.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 13:00:38
whats your favorite non-mainstream or local band?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 13:04:32
I like Zero7, but their latest album was a little weak.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 13:35:19
Quote from: itlnstln;176907
I like Zero7, but their latest album was a little weak.


ah, a sampling: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zero7 (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zero7)
of course my speakers decided to stop working. Dang, i'll have to reboot. SHould have bought a mac. :-P
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:00:37
God damn it, I laughed at your sig welly. How long's it been like that without me noticing?

Problem with laughing: I'm at work.

BTW I had a similar no-sound issue with my old desktop. Never did figure out what caused it, but I suspected it to be hardware level. It was a SiS AC'97 something-or-other, 7012 maybe?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:10:42
Quote from: ripster;176928
Welly is a master of juvenile sigs.  ItlnStln and I were on it for the longest time.


That's an actual quote of mine (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=176681&postcount=16), however.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:32:00
Quote from: kishy;176931
That's an actual quote of mine (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=176681&postcount=16), however.


:) I thought it was hysterical ;)

looks like rippy once again assumed the worst about me. Oh well. He's the like the unbending father figure i never had. :)  But they're all going into the evidence box, to be trotted out at the next therapy session ;)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:42:06
Quote from: ripster;176937
Kishy, read it again.

Sol is not Canadian for Kishy.
Show Image
(https://libwebspace.library.cmu.edu:4430/posner/sp09/subcontents/images/copernicus%20center.gif)


I still don't see a problem (and your image isn't showing up).

He quoted me, it's a funny quote, it's funny that he quoted it. I lol'd.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:43:08
Quote from: kishy;176927

BTW I had a similar no-sound issue with my old desktop. Never did figure out what caused it, but I suspected it to be hardware level. It was a SiS AC'97 something-or-other, 7012 maybe?


My problem is I have four sound cards, depending on what i'm using (docking station with desktop speakers, normal laptop speakers, cs-50 usb headset for Dragon, bluetooth headphones). I have to admit winXP doesnt handle sound card switching very smoothly (er, or at all).

If you start a video without switching to the right one first (manually, in control panel, ugh), then all the computer gods in the universe cant make things right, you'll have to reboot.  (And if the bluetooth is involved, you'll have to force-shutdown too :-D)

Yea, MS can be moronic like that (I'm sure they fixed some of this in win7 tho. I hope.)   The other thing XP does that gets my goat: If you happen to close the lid while the OS is shutting down -- guess what, the freaking thing goes to sleep in the middle of the shutdown.  So when you open the lid later, you're greeted by a "resumed" shut down in progress. LOL!  I swear you can get it to hibernate while in hibernation, too.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:44:50
Quote from: ripster;176928
Welly is a master of juvenile sigs.  ItlnStln and I were on it for the longest time.

Kishy, I don't think you understood.  What ripster was saying was that Welly likes to put juveniles in his sig.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:50:31
Quote from: itlnstln;176943
Kishy, I don't think you understood.  What ripster was saying was that Welly likes to put juveniles in his sig.


I suppose that would be more accurate :-P  tho i dont think thats what rippy meant ;-D

He just hates me, thats all.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/velvetybunny/sad-baby.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 14:58:12
Me, juvenile? Never.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:02:46
I've linked to kishy's quote directly in my sig. So rippy, the next time you think (mistakenly - you did this once before!) that kishy and I are fighting, just click on the link and you can see the context yourself. :)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:11:35
what i liked about kishy's pithy and eloquent quote is that I feel it basically sums up the experience of 99% of geekhack members. All we do is fill in the minor details labelled "blah" :D
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:14:08
Quote from: ripster;176952
This.

Reading used to be taught a basic skill.

And if I don't win the "Troll Poll" it was rigged.  Multistage ones are harder to pull off.


lol. Thats what you're fighting about? Thats not what you meant above though :)

Boy you really do want to win that poll :)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:15:31
I feel compelled here to quote Kishy one more time and say:

Bagels.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:22:10
Bagels with apple cream cheese.  

*Tries to get this thread back on topic*
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:22:56
By the way, I hate apple cream cheese, apple butter, or anything with the word "apple" in it.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:24:12
Everything bagel, toasted, with Olive cream cheese. Tal Bagels (http://talbagelsupperwest.com/food-delivery/Tal-Bagels-Broadway-New-York-City.12702.r?QueryStringValue=cdDPNXGXMEklfj/Vggi+0g==), 90th and Broadway, the best in town. And their coffee isnt bad either.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:25:01
Green olives > black olives.  Who's with me?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:26:11
How about banh mi?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:26:43
Apple olives suck.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:28:22
Quote from: itlnstln;176963
How about banh mi?


I'll wait for someone else to do the pun... never did get down to that korean place, though after you raved about it its still on my short list to try.  Maybe this summer!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:30:07
I didn't rave about it.  I can't get it at any of the Vietnamese places here.  I can get Phochiladas, though.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:32:43
Quote from: itlnstln;176967
I didn't rave about it.  I can't get it at any of the Vietnamese places here.

well if you didnt rave about it then i'll take it off the list!  Apparently I didnt know the difference between korean and vietnamese food anyway!

Quote

  I can get Phochiladas, though.


see, i dont even know what that is.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:34:22
I think prognos raved about the banh mi.  Pho + Enchiladas = bad joke about "Phochiladas."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:37:04
Quote from: wellington1869;176970
well if you didnt rave about it then i'll take it off the list!  Apparently I didnt know the difference between korean and vietnamese food anyway!


A friend of mine was in Korea with some of his friends. They went into a restaurant in which neither the menus nor the staff had any English, and pretty much ordered a random thing out of the list. A while later, out came an empty pot of boiling water. Shortly after, a waiter brought out a live Octopus, and threw it into the boiling water right in front of them...

As for Vietnamese cuisine, my Dad had a Vietnamese colleague who said that when he was young, he had a pet dog, which he gave to his aunt to mind while the family went on holidays. When they came back, the aunt cooked them a great meal, they asked what meat it was and she said 'dog', and when asked where she got it... Yeah, I think you can probably figure out how that one ended.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:37:47
Regular, lighty toasted with regular Philly pour moi, si vous plait.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:37:54
Quote from: itlnstln;176971
I think prognos raved about the banh mi.  

oh yea. I dont know that he's tried it yet either ;)

ah, i see. Pho. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pho)

I never did get a taste for vietnamese food. Chinese, japanese, thai, I like.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:39:11
Quote from: kishy;176973
Regular, lighty toasted with regular Philly pour moi, si vous plait.


dude thats like my comfort food! :)

Did you ever have a cream cheese and grape jelly sandwich? Its unbelievably good on toasted bread. I can eat like a bucket of those.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:41:13
Awesome.  Korean food terrifies me, and I am pretty bold about what I eat.  I went to a Korean wedding and the bride's family did all the cooking.  I had no clue what the hell I was eating half of it was cold (intentionally) some of the "meat" was spongy, and the rest... well... I don't even want to go there.  To my credit (I guess) I did try a little of everything.  I love Chinese, Thai, and Vietnamese food (the real stuff, not the garbage you get at most restaurants in the US), but I just can't handle Korean food.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:42:50
Asiago bagel with garlic cream cheese and Piccorino Romano.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:43:49
Quote from: ch_123;176972
A friend of mine was in Korea with some of his friends. They went into a restaurant in which neither the menus nor the staff had any English, and pretty much ordered a random thing out of the list. A while later, out came an empty pot of boiling water. Shortly after, a waiter brought out a live Octopus, and threw it into the boiling water right in front of them...



see, this is why I dont travel.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:44:02
Quote from: itlnstln;176963
How about banh mi?


Quote from: wellington1869;176966
I'll wait for someone else to do the pun...


Banh mi? Yes please! Nomnomnomnom.  :banplease:
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:46:39
Quote from: itlnstln;176976
Awesome.  Korean food terrifies me, and I am pretty bold about what I eat.  I went to a Korean wedding and the bride's family did all the cooking.  I had no clue what the hell I was eating half of it was cold (intentionally) some of the "meat" was spongy, and the rest... well... I don't even want to go there.  To my credit (I guess) I did try a little of everything.


My chinese roommate once took me to seattle's china town, to a "real" chinese restaurant. Lets just say none of those items were on the menu at Panda Palace down the street from me.

The main course was dim sum. I'd never seen "real" chinese dim sum before (and never want to again!).  To my credit (I guess) I stared at the chicken feet for a long time before ordering a fruit salad.  I think I was a vegetarian for the next week.

Something about tearing the meat off of chicken toe-nails with my teeth just didnt appeal.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 15:48:33
Quote from: Rajagra;176981
Banh mi? Yes please! Nomnomnomnom.  :banplease:


Nicely done :)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 16:51:18
This has to be the best derail yet.

Can't say I have had such a sandwich, but it does sound good.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 28 April 2010, 17:51:56
Back on topic.
(http://www.marketmanila.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/165.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 18:23:45
Apples would destroy the integrity of the taste of a bagel.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Otterclock on Wed, 28 April 2010, 18:41:22
I like those boba drinks with the little tapioca balls in them. I always get one from the vietnamese restaurant nearby when I go there. The place is called "Little Saigon" but my friends sensitively call it "Little Napalm."
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 18:56:22
Quote from: Otterclock;177088
I like those boba drinks with the little tapioca balls in them. I always get one from the vietnamese restaurant nearby when I go there. ."


boba - i always thought it was "bubble". Like bubble tea. The tea that you chew!

hmmm, tapioca balls.
;)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Specter_57 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 19:00:44
..
There is nothing else as enjoyable as a hot Indian curry buffet....

mmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

.
.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9533&stc=1&d=1272499482)

.
.
.
...............
Spec_57
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 28 April 2010, 22:26:58
Quote from: Specter_57;177101
..
There is nothing else as enjoyable as a hot Indian curry buffet....

mmmmmmmmmmmm!!!


except maybe a squishee

(http://www.fasthack.com/images/weblog/2007/07/squishee-1.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 28 April 2010, 23:41:23
Wow.  

I gotta say folks,  this is surely the most entertaining forum I have ever frequented, without a doubt - and also the most esoteric.  The last thing I found to reference an abundance of obscure to many yet familiar to me pop-cultureisms in such a grand fashion was the  "The Venture Bros." cartoon on Adult Swim.  Nearly every thread meanders off in the same fashion, yet one can never predict in what direction!  

The Dim Sum mental picture of the chicken feet was particularly dear to my heart because I am half Chinese and  it just so happens that my own absolute favorite dish has to be duck's feet (Sorry, Webwit!)   My Dad adjusted easily to new experiences and learned early in his relationship with Mom that the specials on the menu written in Chinese were often quite delicious and more attractively priced than the ones on the English side, so he got used to just pointing at whatever was there and enjoying the fare.  One day when he took his colleagues to lunch in Chinatown after assuring them of his "inside track" to the great meal, the first dish arrived with a little surprise: it was a delicious chicken-type soup served in a hollowed out melon,  complete with the talons of the beast sticking straight out of the top.  

Given what I grew up with, I will try anything at least once.  Though sometimes I'd prefer not to know what it is if I like it (Birds nest soup has became just a wee bit less yummy after learning that the nest was actually made of something the bird regurgitated - I didn't mind so much when I thought about it being a bunch of feather lined twigs though.  Go figure...) , But even if I don't I'll  eat just about anything if I'm hungry enough.   My partner however is less adventurous, being the type that prefers the much milder white meat chicken or turkey, and he was rather disturbed by the contents of the doggy-bag from my lunch with Mom, which also consisted of jellyfish and an entire squab - head included.  When Fear Factor first aired I wanted on the show because I just knew if I could get through the physical stuff (and I used to be a gymnast) I had a lock on anything that came down to what we had to consume.
Title: In defense of both apple and pc
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 29 April 2010, 00:43:27
But I digress - Mom was actually the reason I wanted to chime in here, because she exemplifies the reason Apple was able to hold on to any sort of market share given the drastic difference in retail cost of their product from a comparably equivalent PC.  Whenever people get into Apple vx PC arguments, I very rarely hear the real reason why most people who use Apple machines actually do.  It isn't about what is faster or more powerful, as the average Apple-ite probably doesn't even know or care.   Its not really about hardware at all except for the fact that it just happened to be a different building ground for the OS.  It is the user experience of Apple that is (er, was anyway) its major selling point.

 Someone made a comment earlier which cast aspersions on the average intelligence of the apple users, but I believe that in a way, the reason Apple appeals is because you really don't have to know a damn thing about computers to use one.  The percentage of  Mac users who even know that such a thing as the "sad mac" icon exists is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of folks who have heard about the "Blue screen of death" so often it had to be shortened to an acronym.

I grew up on Apple - Had a IIc that Mom got to use when she got 30 of them for her class via a grant when she taught high-school.  I remember hating Word Perfect and the fact that one needed a cheat sheet just to remember what obscure key combo would equal "Save" when the Appleworks WP was so intuitive to use.  "Open-Apple+O" (command key for those who never heard it called that) for "Open"  "+P" for "Print", "+S" for "Save" and so on.  When I took a Pascal class, I never thought of going into programming despite a real knack for it because I just didn't think we needed better software!   My mom used the computer just as much as I and was able to teach ESL kids biology and how to do their papers on the computer at the same time.  

When I got a G4 I had to return it to COMPUSA because it did not, even with the added $600 program "virtual PC", run the hardware dependent software I wanted to use at the time.  It came with both OS 9.x (which I loved because it was classic Macware)  and OS X (Which I still hate because its too much like windows, but not quite it.)  I used to be baffled by the small share of the market Apple claimed until I experienced the ability to buy a top of the line (pre-fabbed) PC + Monitor + all-in-one PSFC with the store credit from just the CPU/Display/Mouse/keyboard of the Mac AND STILL HAD $2,000 LEFT FOR SOFTWARE.  Then I marveled that Apple had any bit of the pie at all.

After a year of trying to discover wtf was causing me the need to reinstall the damn system from the stupid "restore disk"  (didn't even get a real windows cd with the Vaio)  countless times and learning how to tamper with the OS so that it would work properly with any kind of consistency I fully understood the value of dollars spent to save headache.  I am a nerd by nature, and I find it fun to toy with my machine and figure stuff out (to a degree) but most people just want to be able to turn it on and do the work they have to do.   Due to fixing all the problems I had I learned how to  get over the stupid "warranty void if broken" sticker over the screw on the PC chassis and even build my own.   I can honestly say that I would never know what I know about computers at all if I had stayed with that G4.  

When my Mom used to call me every two months after the IIcs had been replaced with Windows 98 and 2000 laptops because she couldn't connect to the internet AGAIN, I had the ability to troubleshoot her connection issues and tried to explain to her how to do it herself when it inevitably happened again, but she would get so frustrated that she gave up and didn't even try any more to use it for email.  She used to berate me for spending the extra money on "luxury" like broadband when netzero was free.  When she retired and gave back the laptop, I was astonished she even asked me whether she should buy a pc or mac.  Despite her complaints about the cost, I told her without a doubt not to be an idiot and buy a Mac.  A PC would have been utterly useless to her.

Three months into owning her ibook, she decided broadband was a necessity and now she even has a facebook page.  She googles certain household problems before calling a pro (or me) and nearly had a fit when I borrowed her cable modem one night and didn't bring it back until noon the next day.  She USES that ibook.  Every single day.  And if she were trying to understand why her PC kept restarting itself or didn't ever load she never would have discovered the internet long enough to start sending me those stupid hoax emails about the latest danger on the block or the latest LOLCat pictures.  

Perhaps the reason that people didn't identify with the "I'm a Mac" guy is just because that guy is just a guy.  The PC guy is serious and businesslike, with important serious things to do.  One has to be smart to to all that.  No one wants to realize that they are enticed by a product that was designed to be a little more "idiot proof" because that might mean that they might be that idiot it was proofed against.  

I can proudly say I can now swap out my own hardware and overclock and fine tune and tweak and maybe even on occassion do a little bit of stuff I oughtn't to do (Once I quite accidentally was using the comcast servers after my account had been closed - I didn't know that it had been until I checked the address that was seemingly trying to hack my firewall and found a warning to cease and desist...)  However when I ask myself if I have used the machine to actually accomplish much in the last 8 years since I went PC,  I can't really show anything to be concretely productive in terms of income or even personal productivity beyond expanding my personal knowledge of computers and tech in general.  In my own opinion Apple lost some of its charm when it became more like windows, which I had seen as trying to make PC as usable as Apple back in the day.   Since then they've fallen into the same hype trap as Microsoft and started believing their own market spin rather than continuing along that original path of originality that set them apart in the first place.

On the other hand yet again, I would not likely be using that same G4 to type this ridiculously long analysis today as I am doing on that VAIO which replaced it.  Had I kept the G4 it would likely have joined the ranks in the closet with the useless blue Imac along with a couple other less upgrade friendly machines in the last 8 years to sit and gather dust in its obselesence (sp?).  The VAIO isn't quite the same beast it was, having gone through some surgeries in the video, optical drive, and memory departments, but the CPU and mainboard are still in service pending the readiness of the next iteration ending construction in the next week. My moms ibook is ridiculously slow for me to use, but she will not likely feel a need to upgrade for some time to come.

Basically, it is neither here nor there which is a better product.  That is the entire reason we want to have a choice to begin with isn't it?  Whichever is better for whoever is really a matter of perspective and nothing else.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 29 April 2010, 01:40:02
Well put. :smile:
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 29 April 2010, 02:11:51
Most of the usuals here get it Voix. There are a few very vocal and petty people who haven't left high school yet who like to do the "Hahaha! You use a Mac. You must be a loser!" thing. I meant that figuratively, but come to think of it, there may be a few who really haven't left high school.

More commonly, there are those who just don't like the practices and policies of Apple. I personally have no problem with those policies, but I think the people who dislike the Apple brand for how they run their business have very valid reasons for their views. If they're really fundamentally wrong for how they do things, the market will sort things out eventually.

Quote
Perhaps the reason that people didn't identify with the "I'm a Mac" guy is just because that guy is just a guy. The PC guy is serious and businesslike, with important serious things to do. One has to be smart to to all that. No one wants to realize that they are enticed by a product that was designed to be a little more "idiot proof" because that might mean that they might be that idiot it was proofed against.
I'm not sure if you've got this right. John Hodgeman's PC character actually gets better approval than the Justin Long Mac guy. Some think this was a major blunder on Apple's part, but I don't find the results surprising at all. Justin Long is clearly in a supporting role in that series. All he does is come in and say something to setup the PC character to do something funny. I know I never watched one of those commercials to see what Justin Long would do. He's just kinda there he does come across a little snooty at times.

BTW, I'm first generation full blooded Chinese and chickens feet makes me yack. I was raised by my grandparents so I have lots of exposure to old world throwbacks, but the nasty stuff just isn't for me. My wife, who's an Irish-German Mutt, is actually a lot more adventurous with food than I am.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 29 April 2010, 03:28:47
Quote from: hyperlinked;177172
I'm not sure if you've got this right. John Hodgeman's PC character actually gets better approval than the Justin Long Mac guy. Some think this was a major blunder on Apple's part, but I don't find the results surprising at all. Justin Long is clearly in a supporting role in that series. All he does is come in and say something to setup the PC character to do something funny. I know I never watched one of those commercials to see what Justin Long would do. He's just kinda there he does come across a little snooty at times.


hodgeman himself btw is a real mac evangelist, i read an interview with him once where he was whaling on pc's.  Ironically I got the impression justin long couldnt care less.

Quote

BTW, I'm first generation full blooded Chinese and chickens feet makes me yack.

i'm first gen indian and i cant stand spicy food.

Quote

I was raised by my grandparents

omg, so was I.  

Quote

so I have lots of exposure to old world throwbacks

my throwback is that I'm haunted by the nagging feeling that I should really try to be a vegetarian. Both my grandparents were.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 April 2010, 07:07:48
Quote from: Welly
i'm first gen indian and i cant stand spicy food.

You're a disgrace.

That's OK.  My dad (who looks like a Sicilian hitman) can't stand seafood. *facepalm*

Me, on the other hand, I'll eat just about anything.  Some of my favorite foods are feet, crow, humble pie and my hat.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 29 April 2010, 08:43:59
Quote from: itlnstln;177198
You're a disgrace.

i know :) I've been told that by spicy food loving indians my whole life. I tell them I'm like the rat in Ratatouille, somehow. While they're thinking about that I order a cheeseburger.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:38:54
I don't think Mac users are losers.

I think Mac fanboys are losers, just like fanboys of most things. (There's a difference between fans and fanboys, too. Fans can defend their choice using logical arguments, fanboys *cough*MW*cough* use arguments that aren't based in fact or logic.)

I also think that Apple is setting dangerous precedents, and is being more anti-competitive than Microsoft. Left unchecked, Apple's actions, IMO, will severely harm the computer industry. Companies are starting to copy their walled-garden model, because they've seen it work, and people are getting used to it.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:48:26
I'm late to this thread cuz I was just bashing Apple over on several other forums. Sorry.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:49:47
Quote from: kode;163737
Yeah, IBM is pretty much pure services now. The hardware they're handling is more or less part of the deal. Same for SunOracle, really. HP wishes they were there (so expect them to acquire companies to facilitate this, for example SAP, this year).


What? I guess you haven't priced a mainframe lately. They're not giving them away. Or maybe the guys buying mainframes are funding the rest of the operation. Hardware, software, it all costs big money.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:50:46
Quote from: bhtooefr;178423
Companies are starting to copy their walled-garden model, because they've seen it work, and people are getting used to it.


I think Nintendo, Sega, Sony, and XBOX were actually there with the walled garden approach first. They don't run the app store, but they license all the titles.

I'm not worried regardless. I'm a strong believer that any strong movement necessarly vacates such a wide area of demand that it spawns its own counter movement. The more dominant the software industry becomes in creating total control, the more demand there will be for its own anti-industry.

Apple is itself an anti-industry of Microsoft and the dominance of PCs and now that they too are becoming dominant others will become the anti-industry of Apple.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:53:12
Hey, I've got a (roughly) daily blog series about why Apple is evil. ;)

Didn't get anything last night, hopefully two things come in today.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:56:49
Quote from: hyperlinked;178431
I think Nintendo, Sega, Sony, and XBOX were actually there with the walled garden approach first. They don't run the app store, but they license all the titles.

I'm not worried regardless. I'm a strong believer that any strong movement necessarly vacates such a wide area of demand that it spawns its own counter movement. The more dominant the software industry becomes in creating total control, the more demand there will be for its own anti-industry.

Apple is itself an anti-industry of Microsoft and the dominance of PCs and now that they too are becoming dominant others will become the anti-industry of Apple.


The thing is, game consoles are a market where you expect a walled garden. (That said, there's XNA on the Xbox 360, and there was Other OS on the PS3, and Linux for the PS2.) Smartphones, OTOH, weren't a walled garden before the iPhone came out.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 03 May 2010, 09:01:26
Quote from: bhtooefr;178437
The thing is, game consoles are a market where you expect a walled garden. (That said, there's XNA on the Xbox 360, and there was Other OS on the PS3, and Linux for the PS2.) Smartphones, OTOH, weren't a walled garden before the iPhone came out.


So then there's Android, which has its own app store for now, but if they can't break Apple's hold on the Apps market, what will they do? Keep trying to be Apple even harder? No, they'll put their bets down that the only way forward is to not be Apple and offer everyone disgrunted by Apple an alternative.

Or maybe they'll succeed with a walled garden and then what does Microsoft do with Windows Mobile or HP do with their acquisition of Palm? One of these guys is certainly going to take the path of least resistance.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 03 May 2010, 09:48:28
I wasn't referring to Android in general, where the Market is only one option for where to get apps, I was more referring to AT&T's Android phones, and Windows Phone 7.

And, Microsoft is already going down the walled garden path with Windows Phone 7 - to the point of, copying the LACK of features from the iPhone for the sake of copying the iPhone.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Thu, 06 May 2010, 00:16:14
Back on topic: annoying modern music.

Amazon Kindle commercial song.

Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 18:52:52
oh god, someone shoot me.  Honda has jumped on the"most horrible song in a commercial"bandwagon. Just saw this ad on tv, found it on youtube already of course.

Its by some god-awful band named Ellem.  Same idea: Take some youngish bourgeoise white trash housewife with absolutely no personality to speak of, have her sing about butterflies with an acoustic guitar. For some reason Apple thought this was their target market, and now more and more major corporations are jumping on board with this style of advertisement. Oh god, just shoot me now.

"Ellem" gives "Feist" a run for her (their? I dont even know, dont want to know!) money.

Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 18:59:37
Yeah. The other variation on this that does my head in is the "Acoustic, dry voiced female rendition of famous songs". There was an ad doing the rounds a few months ago that featured such a version of David Bowie's "Let's Dance". Terrifying stuff.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:06:54
Quote from: ch_123;181646
Terrifying stuff.


Indeed! I cant scramble for the mute button on the remote control fast enough when these horrors come on. :)  If i cant get to it in time then basically people around me are in danger of their lives as the song turns me into some kind of raging homocidal maniac. :)  Either that or I bash my own head in against the wall while its playing :)  Anything to make it stop :)

Have you noticed that for some reason these women really like to count? Their other favorite activity is naming the days of the week, or naming the colors of the rainbow.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:11:10
Bad music is only acceptable if it's funny.
(I held back from posting this in a couple of other threads, but bad taste has got the better of me.)


Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:13:25
Quote from: wellington1869;181647
or naming the colors of the rainbow.


Did you guys have that Dell ad too?
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:14:08
Quote from: ch_123;181649
Did you guys have that Dell ad too?

The one with the colourful turds?

Edit> I was thinking of the lollipop  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGSHKNacB6Q)one.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:16:09
That describes every Dell ad made in the past two years. I am referring to a certain gut-wrenching, PTSD-inducing ad that begins with "I am Green today", and fails to stop at this point...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:18:35
Quote from: ch_123;181649
Did you guys have that Dell ad too?


:) its like we're in kindergarten when these stupid songs come on -- they're infantilizing.  Thats what they are. (Not to mention, just horrible as songs).
And i think they're meant to be infantilizing! Its like, here, let me talk to you like you're 6 months old, and maybe you'll buy my product. I figure the singer is either as dumb as a child, or is so condescending that she thinks we are. Neither of which bodes well for my impression of her. :) (Or the ad executives who thought these songs were a good idea to put in their ads!).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:20:38
Quote from: ch_123;181651
That describes every Dell ad made in the past two years. I am referring to a certain gut-wrenching, PTSD-inducing ad that begins with "I am Green today", and fails to stop at this point...

oh dear god, make it stop!  One more for the box of evidence...



Its absolutely not a coincidence that the kid singing along here is like 5 years old.  Thats how old dell thinks the rest of us are, too.  Its like they want us to feel that stupid when the ad comes on.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:23:39
With that cow-print blanket it looks like they're advertising Gateway 2000 (Back when they were real American computers, not the chinese junk you all find today).
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:25:42
Quote from: Rajagra;181648
Bad music is only acceptable if it's funny.
(I held back from posting this in a couple of other threads, but bad taste has got the better of me.)


lol! at least that one was funny.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:25:59
OMG, the Honda commercial...much like driver's licenses, people should be required to obtain singing licenses.

RE: remakes of old songs: Lincoln and Cadillac are both using modernized versions of older songs, for example Space Oddity, but not nearly as crapified as many.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:29:16
Honda used to be cool. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ve4M4UsJQo)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:29:36
My ears! The plugs, they do NOTHING!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:36:20
Quote from: ricercar;181661
My ears! The plugs, they do NOTHING!


As Marshal McLuhan said, auditory memes are more subversive because you can't choose whether you hear something or not. You have eyelids, but no ear lids.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:38:32
Quote from: ricercar;181661
My ears! The plugs, they do NOTHING!


Silly, those are earbuds.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:40:05
The horror. The horror...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 19:44:23
a much needed palate cleanser :)

How come these guys never get an ad?

Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 20:29:49
Quote from: ripster;181685
Actually, they will.  That sickens me much more than cute pop songs.


youre right, there's something sad about seeing Lennon being used to sell shoes.

Lennon was in Apple's Think Different campaign too.

I always thought this was one of the more ironic advertizing posters ever made, given Apple's censorship of the dalai lama (http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/apple-bends-to-chinese-censors-kicks-dalai-lama-apps-from-the-app-store-20091230/)!
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9973&stc=1&d=1273714386)

Seriously, when did Apple become one of the bad guys? I have so much respect for Google for pulling out of China.

For that matter, Gandhi was in that Think Different campaign too: more irony, as the greatest critics and renouncers of material goods are used to sell high priced modernity.

Too bad the good guys are better left poor and unnoticed.

How absurd is this?:
(http://interactioncultureclass.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/applethink-gandhi.jpg)
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: kishy on Wed, 12 May 2010, 20:57:15
ripster, not even funny as a joke. She's garbage.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 12 May 2010, 21:15:05
Quote from: kishy;181710
ripster, not even funny as a joke. She's garbage.


lol, i have to agree. You know I can be pretty generous when it comes to art, but my god, there have to be limits!
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 May 2010, 07:34:19
Paul Anka. Ouch.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 23 October 2010, 18:05:08
Quote from: wellington1869;181692
I always thought this was one of the more ironic advertizing posters ever made, given Apple's censorship of the dalai lama (http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/apple-bends-to-chinese-censors-kicks-dalai-lama-apps-from-the-app-store-20091230/)!
But this was only the Chinese App Store. As a company doing business in China, they have no choice but to obey Chinese laws there.

Of course, doing business in China is morally questionable in itself, but the competition does so, so they really have little choice.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 23 October 2010, 20:21:48
Quote from: quadibloc;237759
But this was only the Chinese App Store. As a company doing business in China, they have no choice but to obey Chinese laws there.

Of course, doing business in China is morally questionable in itself, but the competition does so, so they really have little choice.


agreed, but then they should stop pretending like they're all about doing good and being responsible. If they're business ****s like everyone else, they should embrace that! ;)  The apple ad campaign (that featured gandhi and the dalai lama and others) was clearly meant to give the imperssion that apple was all about do-gooding, responsibility, innovation, etc. Well, no, they're ****s-like-everyone-else.
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 24 October 2010, 10:16:45
Quote from: ripster;237793
As a AAPL shareholder just let me say....
I remember the movie which that scene came from. Unfortunately, there aren't any clips of Kirsten Dunst from Cat's Meow on YouTube...
Title: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 24 October 2010, 10:20:46
I decided to go do some apple bashing today. How'd I do?
(http://www.thereviewcrew.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/smashed_apple.jpg)
Title: Re: A Gentle Request: Give the Apple Bashing a Rest Please
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 13 December 2017, 18:24:44
I WILL NEVER STOP BASHING APPLE, BECAUSE IT'S A CRAPPY COMPANY THAT SELLS OVERPRICED GARBAGE. TO HELL WITH APPLE!

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-prod/2013/08/Smashed-MacBook-Pro.jpg)