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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: AgentHeavy on Tue, 16 March 2010, 15:46:39
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Hi everybody !
I am new on the forum, and French, so be indulgent plz.
I bought and received today a brand new Topre Realforce 55g coming from elitekeyboard.
Well, the feeling with it, is sensational. Just imagine that i am coming from a Razer tarantula.
The funny part is the realforce is better at gaming than the tarantula ! So wierd. The travel of a key on my old board was ridiculous 2mm ? Now i can do some little moves with my hero. Awsome.
The noise is fantastic too, no point going on a silent model !
But i wonder if i did a good choice because keys are quite stiff.
I have hesitated for a long time going for a differentweighted model or a 55g, even the HHPK2 but the layout is **** for playing. (F1/F2, cross...)
The multi weighted keyboard seems so wierd, i was afraid of having 35g A, 40g W/S and 45 for the D. I already tested a 30g keyboard, come on, you blow on keys and thats it !
What's your opinion about these two keyboards, for those who have both. Can you tell me if the difference is huge, or am i crying for anything ?
Sincerely.
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You made the right choice; just give it a few weeks. I didn't really care for the HHKB at first, because I felt the switches were heavier than the Cherry browns in my Filco, but now, I like them. You'll feel the same, too, just give it a little time.
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Although I don't have any Topre keyboards, one thing I can note on general principles: having different weights on the different keys makes sense if the keyboard is used for touch-typing, because the weights are based on which finger presses which key in the usual touch-typing layout.
For playing games, where the keyboard is treated as a mass of buttons... I would think that a uniform-weighted keyboard would be the obvious choice.
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While I haven't personally used a variable-weighted 'board, I would think it might be awkward at first since you would expect the keys to be the same weight. Like anything, you would get used to it, but at first it would be hard. I think, personally, I will stay with a fixed-resistance 'board.
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I have a variable 87u and an all-55g 87u. I've used them side by side, taking turns. Some days I would prefer one over the other, some days my opinion reversed. Finally I just took the 55g home as my main driver and left the 87u at work as my main driver. I like them both and can't really say I have a definite preference for either. They do feel different, neither is more comfortable. The all 55g feels more springy and a little tighter but you quickly adjust to typing on either one. My plan was to test them and then sell the one I liked less, but honestly I like them both about the same.
If I had to buy one today, I honestly can't say which I would prefer.
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I have the topre 86uk (sale pending to another geekhacker) which is variable weights. I think the 45grams keys are a lot crisper than the 30gram keys, and would prefer a keyboard with all 45gram keys. I can't tell if I would like a 55gram keyboard. The 30gram keys are very very light, and they don't push your finger back like a brown cherry does, it has bad "rebound"
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^ I was about to ask the exact same thing.
If you happen to still have that 30g board, or know how to get one easily in Belgium, I'm interested.
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Thank you for answering me guys.
The truth is, whatever model i would have take, i would be not satisfy. For gaming, the multi-weighted keyboard is maybe less attractive. Some keys are to ligth. Putting the cross on "T H G F or Y G H J" is less interesting and instinctive. Nethertheless, for typing, i think the experience is better and you are less tired typing one for a day.
For the 55g, better for gaming with it's homogeneity, but "seems" to be less pleasant to type on for a day. Pushing a key is harder.
I am crying because i can't buy both, or i can't buy the HHPK2 (layout), or the japanese 45g version suxx with the little space bar.
Peraphs the gap between them is not big. The didjamatic message confirm this in a certain way.
edit for rlm80 and Ripster : Hi, i didn't try it on a Topre keyboard unfortunately, it was a Logitech. Just tried some random keyboards to feel the difference. It's not the same experience as a Topre, but it gives you an idea.
My tarantula was 55g, it is almost the same but now it's not a "push ON/OFF" anymore but a progressiv touch. it's way better.
edit2: The 30gram keys are very very light, and they don't push your finger back like a brown cherry does, it has bad "rebound"
Man, i was just thinking about that, what about the feedback in relation with the weight ? Is it prouved ?
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I would say you made the right choice. The keys might feel a little stiff now but in a week or two your fingers will be use to it and it will feel perfect. I've been typing on the 55g for a few weeks now and I couldn't be happier.
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I will stick with it and see if i like it or not.
Thank you for answers guys :)
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I almost feel sorry for the manufacturers. 30g is seen as so light that blowing on them sets keys off, yet 55g is heavy enough to tire people out. When they try to fix this dilemma with a clever design with variable weight to match finger strength, that too is criticized. They can't win.
Quadibloc makes a good point about gaming, but for normal typing the 87U's variable weighting suits me fine. I find it comfortable without even being aware of the difference. (A wrist rest ensures I never put the weight of my hands on the keys, so I've never encountered the accidental aaaaaa;;;;;;;;; problem.)
I think you can adjust to any keyboard if you give it time, provided it doesn't cause pain or tiredness. For that reason I think lighter is better. And variable weighting is good as long as it is subtle enough that you don't notice it in normal use.
Anyway, I suggest using your all-55g board for a while. If you still find it tiring after a month you should have no problem selling it.
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Having used the Tarantula at work (I work in a retail electrical store), I'd have to say that that thing is friggin light, lighter than my Cherry Brown Filco. Give it a little while, and your fingers will get used to the feel of the Topres.
You won't look back.
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I tested keys with the Tarantula, the G15 and my Topre. (putting coins on keys)
The result = 55/60/55.
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In fact, there have been demands for the all-45g Realforce in US layout in Japan too, for quite a while, but they seem to be minority and resellers don't take them serious enough to get Topre make one.
This situation might change if there should be a brave that orders a few hundred of them at one time.
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Yep, typed all day on a variable 87u, now I'm home on an all-55g and it mostly just feels tighter and springier.
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So, what's the one you prefer ? Do you like both with their pros/cons ?
springier = do you mean more "rebund ?". (i am french, some diffiiculties to traduce).
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Yes, the rebound is snappier. The all 55g feels a bit tighter and more crisp, but honestly I can't say which I prefer. They're both rock solid, incredible keyboards. I just wish I had one in WHITE.
(http://image.yes24.com/momo/TopCate72/MidCate07/7165176.jpg)
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The springiness is the only thing I really miss in the Topre switches compared to the Cherry browns. I just don't feel like I get that same energy return from the Topres.
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I am starting to get used to my keyboard.
I have another question about it.
Do keys turn shiny with this board ? How to avoid the shiny thing ? Just washing your hands ? often washing your keyboard with some alcohol ?
If the problem happens a day, where can i find some replacement keys ?
With older keyboards, they were shiny in 1/2 years... Just garbage after that.
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Pretty much all black keys will go shiny eventually, Topre keyboards tend to be quite resistant though.
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Pretty much all keys will go shiny eventually, Topre keyboards tend to be quite resistant though.
FTFY.
I have had my HHKB for about a month now, and the keys haven't started to go shiny yet. I would be able to see my reflection in the Filco caps after about two weeks. Keeping your hands clean definitely helps (I don't think I would go as far as cleaning them with alcohol, though), but shininess will happen over time regardless.
Elitekeyboards sells replacement caps for the HHKB, but not the Realforce. You can use the letter keycaps on the Realforce (and probably the spacebar), but you will have the HHKB legends.
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Okay, thank you again guys.
I knew Filco keyboards turn shiny faster, that's why i didn't buy one.
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I've been using my HHKB every day for over a year, and cannot see any shinyness on the top of the spacebar. However, the front of the spacebar is all shiny ! I just noticed I've been pressing it by pushing with my thumb on the edge rather than on top of it.
It's a bit hard to capture with a webcam and dorm room lighting, but you can somehow see the large shiny spot on the front causing specular reflection.
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I noticed that too. It looks like they "velvetize" the top of the spacebar. The command and Alt keys next to it are completely "velvetized."
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I don't have a high-powered flash to check (nor would I break it out at work), but I don't think the HHKB spacebar is a different color like the one on the RF. I could be totally and utterly wrong, though.
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In the pics on Elitekeyboards, you really can't see the difference. I can, however, see the slight mismatch of blacks on my SPOS, though. The keys are closer to a "true" black where the case has a slight blue tint. I can see the smooth finish on the front of the spacebar, though. That one's pretty obvious.
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Before I gave my 55g away, I used it at work and I still use the variable-weight one at home. I'm a programmer and I find that when I get frustrated, I tend to hit the keys quite hard, which was great on the 55g. But at home, where I'm much more relaxed, I prefer the less stiff keys on the variable-weight. However, I've had issues before where I'll rest my finger on the A key and end up typing a row of A's before I realize that I've slightly depressed it (since Topre's activate the moment it starts to travel, not halfway through).
So if I didn't have either and had to choose one, which one would I go for? I'd probably get the variable weight one. Because the keys are lighter to press, they fatigue my fingers less than the 55g one.
I also find it essential to remove the spring beneath the spacebar (not the spring in the dome, but the one that rests between the keycap and the stem). Taking it out is as simple as popping off the spacebar and then just removing the spring. I find that this makes the activation force of the spacebar in line with the other keys. Otherwise, it feels much stiffer and, due to the sharp edge, can be painful to press.
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Thank you for the answer.
I stated that it's difficult to choose one or the other. In game, the 55g is near perfection.
Not stiff, not light.
For typing, maybe a little bit stiff, but fun to type on fortunately.
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In fact, there have been demands for the all-45g Realforce in US layout in Japan too, for quite a while, but they seem to be minority and resellers don't take them serious enough to get Topre make one.
This situation might change if there should be a brave that orders a few hundred of them at one time.
I just picked up a uniform 45g Just branded 91U NIB on Yahoo Japan :) I'm really looking forward to getting it :)
But on the 45g boards here are the options you have:
Very limited run of the FD0100 and the FD01D0 (blank version of the FD0100).
SA0100 (Full size keyboard) which you can still get here (http://www.vshopu.com/TP_108UH/index.html) I think.
JUST Limited 108UB (Model #SJ08J0) only 700 of them made not sure if you can still get this one.
JUST Limited 91UW2 (white tenkeyless Model #NG02J0) only 300 of them made. Haven't seen this one in the wild.
JUST Limited 91UB2 (Black tenkeyless Model #NG22J0) only 300 of them made. This one I have seen on Yahoo Japan a few times. This is the one I just got New In Box for a arm and a leg :)
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Hi everybody,
I up this topic.
I was hesitating between both the multi weighted or the all 55g one.
I bought the multi weigthed one to see who's the best.
I can't decide, they are both fantastic...
I think the multi weighted is awsome for typing and relaxing but the 55g is so funny too. The sound is better.
I will use them both. It's just a collection piece. I can't sell one.
sincerely,
edit : Just one thing i HATE :mad2:, the spacebar. so crappy !
It wears so fast !
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That always becomes a (good) problem - when you have multiple keyboards you really like. It's hard to figure out which one you want to use.
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That always becomes a (good) problem - when you have multiple keyboards you really like. It's hard to figure out which one you want to use.
The 55g for gaming is better, maybe for holidays. The bad part : I have some difficulties to touch type with it because sometimes i miss keys.
I can't really put my arms on my desk and type with ease.
With the multiweighted is flawless.
The 55g is for a special use.
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I was hesitating between both the multi weighted or the all 55g one.
I bought the multi weigthed one to see who's the best.
I can't decide, they are both fantastic...
I think the multi weighted is awsome for typing and relaxing but the 55g is so funny too. The sound is better.
I will use them both. It's just a collection piece. I can't sell one.
I did the same thing, I used them at work for 2 weeks rotating back and forth a few times through each day and never could choose a clear favorite. Sometimes I preferred one, other times I liked the other. Either is a great board.
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The 55g for gaming is better, maybe for holidays. The bad part : I have some difficulties to touch type with it because sometimes i miss keys.
I can't really put my arms on my desk and type with ease.
With the multiweighted is flawless.
The 55g is for a special use.
This is exactly what I have experienced with my 55g. I feel like I have to chase this board down rather than finesse it, changing my work position has also really helped.
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That's a pretty good description, and it's how I felt on the HHKB. Like to finesse some brown Cherrys.
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I have actually tried both the uniform 55g version and the multi-weighted version. I used the 55G version for a few weeks and I loved it, then I got the multi-weighted version as there is no uniform weighted version in the white color available in the U.S. I don't think the multi-weighted version was difficult to adapt to at all. I was originally vary wary of the different weights, but once you start using it you don't notice it at all. It is very comfortable to use, and the lighter weighting on the pinky and ring fingers make a huge difference when typing for extended periods of time.
As far as gaming goes, I have not started playing my FPS games again yet (too much work at the moment) but I fired up Star Wars Jedi Academy to test the keyboard out. The WASD cluster only takes a few minutes to get used to, as the A key is easier to press than the others. However, because with the topre switch the resistance is at the top of the key rather than at the middle, you just have to learn to rest your fingers on the keys and really just let them sit there. I made a few accidental presses of the A key in the game, but after awhile I was able to play just fine.
The multi-weighting is no biggie of a concern. I was worried that I would hate it, but actually it is very comfortable to type on. Like another poster said, you can really finesse the keys on it. The different weights are almost undetectable when typing, and when you game, you'll easily get used to the different weighting there as well.
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Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but is there anyone that sells the black 87U 55g stateside or on a webpage that doesn't need to be translated?
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Rather than create a new thread I thought I would revive this one as it may be beneficial to those on the fence.
The reason why I'm asking this now is because I need a replacement workboard. Everytime I bring a board in from home it's promptly jettisoned within 72 hours. My relationship with a keyboard at work is completely different than ones I use at home. My workboard should be very quiet and a tad bit boring - preferably having as little 'personality' in the switch as possible. Also having one as low profile as possible without it also having chiclet/scissor height is also preferable (ie: middle of the road.)
Arguments for Topre:
1) Lowest profile mechanical keyboard: I'm not a fan of wrist rests - I want this as low profile as possible and the GH majority seems to agree that it is.
2) Quiet. I've tried the Matias Quiet Alps, SGI Granite, Apple Extended II, as well as O-Ring and Soft Pad Cherry's and they still aren't quiet enough - or they alter the feeling in a way I don't find pleasing.
3) Boring. I want the board to be boring in a way that it doesn't have a ton of personality the way Buckling Springs or Space Invaders do.
I've narrowed it down to the Variable Silent and 55g. 45g isn't available, but even if it was it wouldn't make the cut unless a silent variant was available.
I'm 99.9% sold on the Silent but have a nagging feeling that not only it's too light but that it has the tactility of a MX Brown.
So I ask you - if you eliminate the variable nature of the Silent Topre from the equation and compared it to the 55g which would likely be closer to the average HP rubberdome you see at most places? BTW: The model I am inferring is the HP SK2880 which is a damn fine rubberdome. I like it even more than the Thailand made Dell Quietkey and it has unsurped a lot of Cherry MX/ML, Alps, Buckling Springs, Space Invaderes, and an avalanche of supposibly good rubberdomes from my work area. I have nothing against all these switch types but for a work board boring and/or "invisible" is good.
Current guess is:
55g is somewhere stiffer than Blues but less than Clears.
45g is somewhere -5/+5g than Browns.
Close?
Edit: If HP made a tenkeyless 2880 I probably wouldn't be asking this question! My entire motivation in using tenkeyless because my shoulders can't take it anymore >:D
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edit: nm. order placed.
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edit: nm. order placed.
if you mean what you say, and are not just trying to blow money... buy an $8 rubber dome..
The thin domes are extremely quiet... and no one is ever going to try and steal it...
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If you dont like it, Im almost positive many people here will trade their 45g for it!
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edit: nm. order placed.
if you mean what you say, and are not just trying to blow money... buy an $8 rubber dome..
The thin domes are extremely quiet... and no one is ever going to try and steal it...
Hard to find ANSI 87 domes.
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^^^Oh...
I bought the multi weigthed one to see who's the best.
I can't decide, they are both fantastic...
I think the multi weighted is awsome for typing and relaxing but the 55g is so funny too. The sound is better.
I will use them both. It's just a collection piece. I can't sell one.
sincerely,
AgentHeavy if you'd like two variable weight instead of one of each, let me know... I don't know, let say one at home the other at the office?
I also got one of each, and I personally prefer the 55g. I will not hesitate if you offer a trade your all 55g for a variable :-)
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I will use them both. It's just a collection piece. I can't sell one.
sincerely,
edit : Just one thing i HATE :mad2:, the spacebar. so crappy !
It wears so fast !
The joys of owning the Topres. You can not sell them once you've used them because you will miss typing with them even if you have dozens of Cherries sitting around you.
The ONLY real disgust I have for Realforce is their reliance on using an ABS spacer key, just not cricket there chums >:( . The Japanese can make anything yet can't even bother to make a mould for a spacer key........what gives, cheap western philosophy of supplying sub-par part to the masses because the OLD Japanese work ethic was to do ONE better than the rest and never stop developing better solutions as time goes by.
The cheap-arse ABS spacer key has been with us for more than 8 years now. When is it going to go PBT like the rest of the caps?
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You guys realize your quoting a post from 2010 right?
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You guys realize your quoting a post from 2010 right?
Yep. We live by late night TV show re-runs ;D .
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You guys realize your quoting a post from 2010 right?
Why do you always have to burst my bubble. :-(
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I'll add my two cents here. I hope I'm not being redundant.
I own the Realforce with variable key weighting and the EK 45g uniform. And I have the 55g version ordered.
First I only had the variable one. And playing games was awful, but typing was amazing! I play starcraft and I would have to switch to my Filco to play. But as soon as I was done playing, I would type on the Filco and immediately yearn for the typing experience of the realforce.
Problems with the variable weighting? Only for gaming, but when touch typing, it's difficult to notice the different weights. Granted the difference is obvious when you use the same finger or if you're typing and actively "listening with your fingers" for the difference. It doesn't jump out at you as you type. The only other thing is if you rest your fingers on the home row and look away for a while, you might find a line of "ddddddddddddddddd's" or "aaaaaaaaaaa"s when you look back.
Then EK had a "sale" with the EK 45g uniform selling for 200 instead of 225 so that was a good enough reason to buy it. Well that's the keyboard that I'm typing on right now. Thought it doesn't have that extra special little feel of the variable weight, it's at least 99% as enjoyable to type on. But I can play starcraft with it no problem.
I still like cherry switches better for gaming because I like the way they bottom out compared to Topre; When you bottom out on a cherry switch, it's hard plastic on hard plastic, very firm. Bottom out on a topre switch and you'll see that it's not quite as firm. Also I like the crisp very defined tactile bump on the cherry blues for starcraft; when I wear headphones and can't hear the keyboard, I find that disorienting. Not a problem with cherry blues, these f*ckers are loud.dddddddddddddddddddddddddddd <-- that's an actual line of "d"s that happened for real, Ima leave it there. I scratched my head and looked at something on my desk while I was thinking of what to write next. It happens, especially when coding because you write a bit and think if it's going to work, and what's the next step.
Well, now I'm getting the realforce 55g uniform, because keyboards. It's in the mail.
Since I started playing starcraft with my realforce 45g, I've really started to like how snappy the keys are. They are not very snappy but I like the way that they snap. So if they could snap that way but more, I'd be in paradise. So I'm looking forward to seeing how it's going to be. I'm sure the typing experience will be great also.
Final words on the different weighting of realforce keyboards:
Typing
-The realforce variable gives a magical typing experience through smoothness. The light keys are in no way snappy, which at first made me feel disapointed because it didn't feel expensive and I was used to paying for crispness and snappyness. But it became my favorite keyboard to type on very quickly (it's competition was HHKB, Model M, Cherry brown, Cherry blue, so that's no mean feat!). But gaming is totally awful.
-The realforce 45g gives a wonderful typing experience through snappyness rather that smoothness (not saying it isn't smooth, that's just not what makes THIS typing experience special). The uniform weighting makes it good for gaming. Not exactly as good as cherry blue for me, but only by a hair.
The difference for gaming is not enough to make me get up and change keyboards (for the cherry blue keyboard), whereas the difference it typing is (in favor of the realforce).
Your preference between smoothness and snappyness. As I said I was a snappyness man myself before I got the variable realforce. What made me get it is that I wanted a realforce but already had an HHKB (which is uniform 45g) so I thought about it and decided to buy the variable weight one. So even if you read my comparison and you say "I'm a snappyness man so I won't get the variable one", well that's what I would have said had I read this post before I got mine. I wouldn't say that now. Not at all!
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Interesting observations!
I think the point that the variable became your favourite very quickly continues to reinforce the tenet that one should give Topre a chance, a couple of weeks or so, before making a final decision. For many Topre just seems to much like rubber dome (which, technically, it is), but given a chance you discover that it is a fantastic keyboard (speaking only from my experience with HHKB).
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Wrong choice.
HHKB Type-S!!!
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Wrong choice.
HHKB Type-S!!!
Whistle while you work :))
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Wow, necro bump. I was reading through the first page saw the word "Ripster" and checked the date - 2010...
On topic - I really like my HHKB but would be interested in trying a 55g board, maybe even doing a dome swap. As the others have said you can probably get used to the heavier keys after a few days.
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I'd like to have 3 HHKBs, one ergonomic, one standard and one with 55g. Ergonomic HHKB would be good for the right pinky which is used a lot to do arrow keys and such.