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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: gator456 on Wed, 17 March 2010, 16:08:35

Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Wed, 17 March 2010, 16:08:35: What is the best source for a trackpoint? Used keyboards?

I want to add one to a Datahand.

I would prefer USB. I see some HP/CPQ ones on ebay. Has any one gotten them to work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220560872293
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 17 March 2010, 18:10:57: If you could adapt that to USB and make it scroll, that would go great on a DT225 above the ball as a scroll device.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 19 March 2010, 00:26:37: Do you have a Datahand? How/where are you thinking it will go?

I bought an IBM KPD8923 and removed the TP (very easy). $40-70 on Ebay.
I called Unicomp, they said they would sell the TP for about $25+ plus shipping.

You can see it here:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 19 March 2010, 08:58:54: Can a trackpoint be configured as a 2-axis scroll device? If so, this could be perfect for a DT225 or many other trackballs out there that lack scroll functionality.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 10:30:01: Yes I have a datahand. I got a used one for under $500 on ebay. I like it but the learning curve is harsh. However I can type on it without any pain (which is the reason I am trying it out). The built in mouse is just not good enough. I am also thinking about making it wireless (except the power cable):

http://www.iogear.com/product/GUWH204KIT/
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 19 March 2010, 10:42:56: Lowpoly turned me into the IBM KPD8923 for the TP unit for my Contoured mod. He seems to have gone through several trial and errors, so probably a great person to ask.

A lot of interest on your trackpoint mod and wireless mod. Please take pics and be sure to share info!

Gator456: Did you get the Datahand from Ebay a week ago?
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 11:15:29: input nirvana: I read your Kenisis post extensively. Very cool. Before the Datahand I bought a Kenisis Contoured advantaged on ebay. I really like the layout of the keys but the keyboard does not have enough curve (veritically). My hands were too flat and my RSI got worse. I considered cutting the keyboard in half. I contacted Kinesis and was told that "We sell replacement top cases (with function rows installed) for $40"

So you contacted unicomp and they would sell you a touchpoint directly. Would it have been USB? I also followed your lead and searched for KPD8923. I see them for under $55 buy-it-now.

I live in Dallas so I think I will try the first-Saturday-sale(http://www.sidewalksale.com). Maybe I can get one cheap.

I have a question about the TP you pulled from the IBM keyboard. The TP was USB? Right? Was the IBM keyboard PS2 or USB.

On the Datahand I would mount the TP between the J and K fingers. The hope would be that I would only have to take one finger out of a key-well and not the whole hand.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 11:32:38: Yes, I did. I bought the Datahand personal. The auction was best offer and the seller accepted my offer of $469. I saw your comment on another tread about the price I paid...

My goal was to get it cheap enough that I could sell it for 95% of what I paid for it. The unit was/is in pristine condition. It has a 2007 firmware upgrade (data code on chip). With a new one from Datahand going for over $1000, I think I am safe. I was faced with 3 choices when the auction came up:

1) continue to let my RSI get worse in hopes that another unit would come up for sale
2) buy this unit for under $500
3) buy a new unit for $1000

As luck would have it the week after mine sold A PRO II went for slightly more than I paid for mine. Urrg.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 19 March 2010, 12:15:33: KPD8923 trackpoint is PS/2 and keyboard is a separate PS/2 :( Use a "Blue Cube" PS/2-USB converter from Cyberguys.com about $10

To clarify that particular model TP questions, call Bob at Unicomp so I don't tell you anything wrong :)

My personal thoughts on Datahand used prices are limited to the Pro II model only, and are only my opinion :) Keep in mind, I do NOT have any wrist problems, and I do NOT type for a living. If either of those were different, I would gladly pay $10,000 for a (new) Datahand. It's a value statement. I would hate to hear that someone who really NEEDS a Datahand (like you) bought a used unit sight unseen, and got stuck with a lemon., and now perhaps can't afford a new unit. I'm sure you can see my point. :)

Thanks for the input on TP placement thoughts!
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Fri, 19 March 2010, 12:54:59: webwit: That is totally hot. I was thinkin of doing something similiar with the IOGEAR version (One just sold on ebay for under $40).

What are you using for a mouse on the datahand? For your 12V battery have you considered using an LM317 linear voltage regulator to go from 12v to 5.7V?
Title: Best mousing device for use with the DataHand keyboard
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 12:52:33: The best mousing answer I have found so far is a $30 Ergonomic Touchpad mounted with velcro tabs on the middle of the display and easily reachable with the middle finger (though I use the index finger for scrolling). I am left handed, so my Touchpad is on the left-hand DH unit. I do not recall ordering a half-handed version, but this is perfect for a left-handed person, and I do not know how a right-handed person would feel. I see no reason why it could not be mounted upside down on the right hand unit, but I have not tried that. I have thought about putting an Ergonomic Touchpad on both sides (like a two gun cowboy), but I have not done it. I have been using the DH for 18 years (the current model since 1996 and two models before that), so I need to look at the display not more than once or twice a year. If I would need to look at the display under the Touchpad, I would pop it off the velcro tabs that hold it in place. Four small tabs of receptor velcro have been placed so they do not block the display. Before setting up this arrangement, I thought about installing a touchpoint or a small joy-stick on the triangle of plastic above the left thumb (for operation with the index finger), but now I like the Touchpad better than both of those choices (though the idiosyncracies of the Touchpad must be mastered). Now, that the Touchpad has been learned, it is the fastest mousing device I have ever used. Formerly, I moved my hand to use either a larger touchpad or a trackball mounted between the two "hands." I used the DH finger mouse rarely in the past and now virtually never. Information on the Ergonomic Touchpad can be found here: http://www.ergonomictouchpad.com/ergonomic_touchpad.php
(I have no interest in the Ergonomic Touchpad company and am not compensated for promoting their product. I just think it is the best and most efficient mousing partner for the DataHand keyboard I have found so far. Clicks are done on the pad (very lightly) and scrolling is done down the right edge of the pad. Every other mousing product I have ever used is a kluge by comparison. They can all ride the burro backwards in shame.
P.S. I agree with the $10,000 point (above), except that I feel I could lease the DH for $10,000 annually and still turn a handsome five figure profit with it. (That is partly because four hours is about the limit for me on any other keyboard. I normally have used the DH keyboard at least 12 hours per day for the last dozen years and slightly less before that.) In my opinion, all other keyboards are not just a false economy, they are a five digit net negative for anyone who does significant continuous daily hours of keyboard work---even if they only value their time at $10/hour. Take that with a grain of salt if you want, because I AM a DataHand shareholder and a strong supporter of the company. I invest in ideas I believe in, but that does not mean I would say anything but the truth as I see it. If the keyboard were a dog, I would want to be the first to say so. It is not perfect for everyone, but it can, in my opinion, help a lot of people be less stressed and more efficient.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 20 March 2010, 15:33:54: I really like my Ergonomic Touchpad. I am a Mac user so I have a few less stock options than in Win, but that is easily made up with 3rd party software nicely.

My goal now is for a multi-touch/gestures integrated touchpad.

Burro Volando: Could you post a pic of you DH-touchpad set up?
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Taliesin on Sat, 20 March 2010, 18:10:26: Quote from: ripster;164948
One bigger than the other? Why I'm already sensitive about the left one hanging lower like 65% of the population

Why oh why couldn't I have started blocking his posts last time I logged in...
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 18:14:30: Quote from: input nirvana;165684
I really like my Ergonomic Touchpad. I am a Mac user so I have a few less stock options than in Win, but that is easily made up with 3rd party software nicely.

My goal now is for a multi-touch/gestures integrated touchpad.

Burro Volando: Could you post a pic of you DH-touchpad set up?
(http:///Users/dp/Pictures/Palm Photos/dp/Expansion Card -74A0/Palm/Photo_032010_001.jpg)

I hope this works. I may have to do this more than once to present a good image.
Title: DataHand Keyboard with Ergo Touchpad Mounted
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 18:20:04: Quote from: burro volando;165725
Show Image
(http:///Users/dp/Pictures/Palm Photos/dp/Expansion Card -74A0/Palm/Photo_032010_001.jpg)

I hope this works. I may have to do this more than once to present a good image.

It looks like I might have gotten it right on the second try. Sorry about the learning curve here!
Title: Picture of the DataHand Keyboard with Ergo Touchpad
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 18:33:38: Maybe the third try will be the charmed one!
Title: Picture of DataHand Keyboard with Ergo Touchpad
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 18:38:33: Now, I figured out how to do it, and I got the wrong picture uploaded. Sorry for the maladroit performance. I think I have finally done it right.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 20 March 2010, 19:09:28: WOW!
You are not kidding about modding the bottom keys! Initially seems very extreme, but I can see how it potentially could have a large beneficial effect (I do not have a Datahand, but used one about 5 years ago).

I'm glad someone else likes the Ergonomic Touchpad, no one seems to know about it.

Thank you for pics and info on different tab lengths (mentioned in another thread).
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 19:22:05: Quote from: input nirvana;165741
WOW!
You are not kidding about modding the bottom keys! Initially seems very extreme, but I can see how it potentially could have a large beneficial effect (I do not have a Datahand, but used one about 5 years ago).

I'm glad someone else likes the Ergonomic Touchpad, no one seems to know about it.

Thank you for pics and info on different tab lengths (mentioned in another thread).
What is the third party software needed to add functionality for Mac users? I am a Mac user, and I have been getting along without it. Yet, I am still happier than I have ever been with any other mousing device!!!
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 20 March 2010, 19:31:09: There are several, paid and unpaid, many paid have free trials, here is one that can hopefully get you on the right track:

http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/index.html
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: burro volando on Sat, 20 March 2010, 21:56:42: Actually, the learning on the DataHand keyboard is faster than flat keyboard learning because of the tactile reinforcement (each key has a clearly different feel and movement direction), but people do not remember how long it took them to learn to type on the flat keyboard. I was reading yesterday a chapter in the U.S. military's "Human Engineering Guide to Equipment Design" by a Penn State psychologist. The book was written before 1972 (I was reading the revised edition published that year). This particular chapter is on data entry devices, and the psychologist, Robert Seibel, states (citiing studies) that it takes six months for average people to learn any new keyboard and achieve a high level of performance no matter whether it is a small change or a big one, because that is the amount of time most people need to fully and efficiently consolidate the kinesthetic muscle movements with reduced errors and optimal efficiency.

In other words, from the point of view of the hands, a small design change is no less significant in the learning time required than a large design change. Nonetheless, a professor of human factors at Arizona State once told me that he had worked with a blind man learning the DataHand keyboard, and that man was able to reach 90 wpm is less than an hour. If the story is true, and I trust the professor to have told the truth (he is now dead), I can only imagine that the blind or some of the blind must develop much greater intelligence in their fingers. I have also known of high school age students who can get pretty fast on the DH in a week, though most adults need at least 3-4 weeks to get back up to their former flat keyboard speed and much more time to maximize their speed and lower their error rate. That is consistent with my own experience when i was learning but so is Seibel's finding. I think six months are needed to push the error rate down and consolidate the learning process even when people can begin to do useful work by the end of week two (based on about four 20-30 minute training sessions per day). I hope this might be helpful.

(This is a response to an early posting in this thread by Gator456 talking about the learning experience with the DataHand keyboard. I should have included his message, but I failed to click that box.)

Added thought: Seibel's point means that people should make sure that any keyboard change they are contemplating is the best one they could make, because a change that may seem easier is actually going to take as much time to consolidate as one that seems more difficult.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: burro volando on Sun, 21 March 2010, 16:30:31: Quote from: input nirvana;165741
WOW!
You are not kidding about modding the bottom keys! Initially seems very extreme, but I can see how it potentially could have a large beneficial effect (I do not have a Datahand, but used one about 5 years ago).

I'm glad someone else likes the Ergonomic Touchpad, no one seems to know about it.

Thank you for pics and info on different tab lengths (mentioned in another thread).

After thinking more about your comment that my modification of the center (down) key looked extreme, I wanted to say more about the issues involved. With the factory design, fingernails need to be short enough not to get in the way. Theoretically, people could activate the switches with their fingernails, but that would limit the tactility. The north switch (in each key-well) which is designed to be activated by the fingernail can be felt through the fingernail, but in general, the attempt to operate the down switch and the side switches with long fingernails could be less satisfactory, though I would be interested to know if some lady somewhere is making it work. Apart from that, I think that DataHand Systems could have worked harder to accommodate the needs of women who do not want to cut their finger nails as short as men do.

   The point of my modification is improve the ability of the fingers to home to the center of the key well and to be able to constantly orient themselves in center of the key-well. This could also be accomplished by making a small bump or dimple in the center of the center key (using the factory design), but that would not fix the other issue resulting from the ridge at the outer edge of the key. That is like a jump the finger must cross on the way to the perimeter keys. It is too close to the perimeter keys to be helpfully orienting to the fingers as they attempt to home to the center of the key-wells. By cutting the center keys down as much as I have, I allow for somewhat longer fingernails, and that can have a benefit in improving operator leverage or reach to the north keys, but if the fingernails are longer, they could also catch on the center key when the fingers are moving to operate the south keys. If the diameter of the center key is larger than I have made it on my modification, this catching could be more likely depending on the diameter of the operator’s fingers.

   The objective is to allow fast movement among the five keys while also allowing the fingers to maintain a clear reference point in the center of the key-well. The center key needs to be big enough to be comfortable to operate the key and not so big that the fingernails of the operator might catch on the center key when the fingers make a southward movement. I have not experimented with different sizes of center key. I just did what I did about a decade ago and found that it achieved what I wanted to achieve.

   Nonetheless, I can see the size of the center key is related to the size of the operator’s fingers. A person with very slender fingers might find their fingernails could catch on even a center switch the size of mine. It is not a problem for me, but I have not studied the idea in relation to other operators. For me, the arrangement accomplishes the greater efficiency I consider important---even if my fingernails get a bit long for the male standard. I have average sized hands for a man and average sized fingers or maybe smaller than average.

   The center key is a comfortable size for me to operate, and I have now a decade of experience with it, sometimes working 18 hours. If this size was too small to be comfortable I would know it by now. This discussion might seem a bit arcane, but in my opinion it is central to the effective and most efficient use of the DataHand keyboard.

   In addition, I find that I can keep visual track of the amount of dirt and dander in the key-wells and blow them out more easily with a can of compressed air. This is important, because the infrared light beam in each switch can be blocked if dirt or dander get in its path. That can cause the switch to stop functioning or to operate erratically. It is important to keep the key-well clean, but with the factory design, people cannot see how much junk may have accumulated under the center key until it has built up excessively. Normally, they do not do periodic maintenance until a switch starts to malfunction. In my design, the need to do a cleaning can be seen without waiting for a blockage to occur. Most of the accumulation in the key-wells is from the fingers themselves. At least, in my case, other foreign matter is not a problem so much as the dander that flakes off of my fingers.

   This brings me to another matter I am thinking to address for your benefit inasmuch as I see you are a Colemak user. I use the Dvorak layout on the DataHand keyboard, and I have from the beginning, because I learned the Dvorak layout on the flat keyboard about seven years before I got my first DataHand keyboard in 1992. In the beginning, I used standard conversion software to make the change, but in 1998, DataHand Systems offered their own version of Dvorak, and it is better. It is optimized for the DataHand keyboard design. In addition, it improves on DataHand QWERTY by improving the functionality of the Arrow keys. They are placed on the right pinky in the NAS mode. Thus, by holding down the thumb on that hand, the little finger can quickly be used to navigate. I use this feature to avoid having to use the mouse. I estimate that this saves me from using the mouse about 30% of the time, maybe more. It is very fast, because there is no hand movement to get to the Arrow keys (as on the flat keyboard).

   I mention this, because you might want to get DataHand Dvorak and convert it to Colemac with a software package like Ukelele (which I have not tried to use on a DataHand keyboard, so I do not know how it would work). On DataHand QWERTY the Arrow keys are in the Mouse mode, and they require a more awkward double shift. I think DataHand Systems should give DataHand QWERTY users the same functionality they have given to DataHand Dvorak users, but they have not done it. They could have made the change 12 years ago when the idea was installed on DataHand Dvorak, but they did not. DataHand QWERTY users do not know about this feature, so they do not demand it.

   To me, one of the best features of Colemak is the swapping of the Backspace and the Shift Lock keys, but on the DataHand layout that is not needed, because the Backspace key is already in a very convenient place. If there are any keys to use less on the DataHand keyboard, it is the north keys, because the fingernail activation of keys is the most awkward movement for most people. After people get used to it, it is not so awkward, but with QWERTY, 50% of the work is on the north row. I would rather concentrate more of the work on the center and south rows, and both Dvorak and Colemak do that better than QWERTY does.

   Dvorak puts about 70% of the work on the center row, and I think Colemak does similarly. The Blickensderfer DHIATENSOR layout would probably be the best layout on the DataHand keyboard, but it took me until last year to figure that out. It puts 70% of the work on the south row on the flat keyboard and more than 95% of the work on the south and center rows plus four side keys on the DataHand keyboard. That leaves very little work to be done by the fingernails. I hope this will be a helpful expansion of the discussion.

   Finally, thanks for the helpful information on the trackpad enhancement software. That gives me a bunch of studying to do.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 21 March 2010, 18:36:52: There are more 3rd party software solutions besides the links I posted and PM'd to you. You should be able to use those to help find others.

Thank you for the info on the key pads (how + why)
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 21 March 2010, 19:52:12: Quote from: burro volando;165958
--huge Block of text--

Any chance we can get you to put a blank line between paragraphs? I'm having a hard time reading your posts for no reason other than they have no white space between paragraphs. :blabla:
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Mon, 22 March 2010, 00:41:05: Burro: thanks for your extensive replies. I find your feedback very interesting.

The comments about 6 months on learning the flat keyboard make sense to me. I took typing in high school and was the only guy in the class. I scraped by with a D at 10 words a minute. However it was the most useful class I ever took in high school. It took me forever to learn the QWERTY.

The Datahand is getting easier to use each week. Each night I watch some videos on hulu.com and go through the Datahand training exercises at the same time. I am slowly seeing improvement. During the work week I can use the Datahand for about 4 to 6 hours before my brain is exhausted. At the end of the day is hard to be mentally focused on my job and focused on hitting the correct key on the DH at the same time. I usually switch back to my Goldtouch Split out of frustration. Building muscle memory for the g, b,t, y, n, h and NAS are the worst. Many times I hit the shift instead of NAS for a number.

At my current level of proficiency I find the mouse feature of the DataHand un-usable. I am forced to use my external mouse. Right now, with my DH muscle memory so weak, going back to the home row on the DH after using the mouse is very inconvenient.

Burro, I think I saw a post somewhere else by you about that touch pad. I have considered getting the touchpad you mentioned. It would seem that to use the touchpad where you have it mounted you would need to move your entire hand off the home row to use it. My thought with a touchpoint (if it was mounted below the J and K wells, that I would only need to move one finger off the home rows. All this is theoretical for me at this point since I have tried neither.

Burro, I agree with your comments about DH QWERTY vs Dvorak. Before learning the DH I debated extensively which layout to learn. The layout of the NAS seems to be much better for Dvorak on the DH than QWERTY on the DH.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 22 March 2010, 00:44:58: Quote from: burro volando;165958

   This brings me to another matter I am thinking to address for your benefit inasmuch as I see you are a Colemak user. I use the Dvorak layout on the DataHand keyboard, and I have from the beginning, because I learned the Dvorak layout on the flat keyboard about seven years before I got my first DataHand keyboard in 1992. In the beginning, I used standard conversion software to make the change, but in 1998, DataHand Systems offered their own version of Dvorak, and it is better. It is optimized for the DataHand keyboard design. In addition, it improves on DataHand QWERTY by improving the functionality of the Arrow keys. They are placed on the right pinky in the NAS mode. Thus, by holding down the thumb on that hand, the little finger can quickly be used to navigate. I use this feature to avoid having to use the mouse. I estimate that this saves me from using the mouse about 30% of the time, maybe more. It is very fast, because there is no hand movement to get to the Arrow keys (as on the flat keyboard).

   I mention this, because you might want to get DataHand Dvorak and convert it to Colemac with a software package like Ukelele (which I have not tried to use on a DataHand keyboard, so I do not know how it would work). On DataHand QWERTY the Arrow keys are in the Mouse mode, and they require a more awkward double shift. I think DataHand Systems should give DataHand QWERTY users the same functionality they have given to DataHand Dvorak users, but they have not done it. They could have made the change 12 years ago when the idea was installed on DataHand Dvorak, but they did not. DataHand QWERTY users do not know about this feature, so they do not demand it.

   To me, one of the best features of Colemak is the swapping of the Backspace and the Shift Lock keys, but on the DataHand layout that is not needed, because the Backspace key is already in a very convenient place. If there are any keys to use less on the DataHand keyboard, it is the north keys, because the fingernail activation of keys is the most awkward movement for most people. After people get used to it, it is not so awkward, but with QWERTY, 50% of the work is on the north row. I would rather concentrate more of the work on the center and south rows, and both Dvorak and Colemak do that better than QWERTY does.

   Dvorak puts about 70% of the work on the center row, and I think Colemak does similarly. The Blickensderfer DHIATENSOR layout would probably be the best layout on the DataHand keyboard, but it took me until last year to figure that out. It puts 70% of the work on the south row on the flat keyboard and more than 95% of the work on the south and center rows plus four side keys on the DataHand keyboard. That leaves very little work to be done by the fingernails. I hope this will be a helpful expansion of the discussion.

I started using Colemak on a standard flat keyboard and saw benefits immediately. Mostly from the overall layout, the shortcut keys (zxcvb) stayed in the same positions unlike Dvorak, the Caps/Backspace change, and Colemak is perhaps a fraction more efficient than Dvorak. One big positive that I didn't get, is that there are many options (hardware/software) easily supported for Dvorak, unlike Colemak. Later, I started using the Kinesis Contoured keyboard, so the Caps/Backspace change is no longer a "Colemak plus" issue since the Backspace key is located on a thumb key. I've seen more typing benefits since switching to the Contoured keyboard. So, I can see how using a Datahand can change the dynamics of a more preferable layout. Sort of like the Maltron board with the Maltron layout. It seems like a good time to change layouts would be at the time of a Datahand acquisition.

Your info on the arrow keys in Dvorak vs. Qwerty vs. the mouse usage is invaluable. The mouse speed is one of the few consistent complaints I hear.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 22 March 2010, 00:53:32: Quote from: burro volando;165958
The Blickensderfer DHIATENSOR layout would probably be the best layout on the DataHand keyboard,

gator456 = Datahand new layout guinea pig :) :)
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: konz on Mon, 22 March 2010, 08:27:29: Quote from: input nirvana;166073
The mouse speed is one of the few consistent complaints I hear.

For what it's worth: I use the built-in mouse almost exclusively. I don't do much graphical work though, and will always prefer a keyboard shortcut.

With regards to learning Datahand: I almost went crazy with the t, b, y, n keys, only a single shift key, etc. However, I couldn't live without it now.

The only gripes I have are the sunlight problem, the bug in the USB converter with regards to the PAUSE key (the converter doubles PAUSE, making it impossible to use for Windows Remote Connection, which breaks nearly all other shortcut keys), and that right ring finger in 10-key pad mode on the international version doesn't produce ENTER, as it is supposed to, which breaks one-handed number entry.

Unfortunately, Lynn wasn't able to round up their firmware programmer when I reported the ENTER problem last year, so I see scant chance that improvements such as the Dvorak arrow keys will be realized, regardless of how loud users clamor for them.
Title: DataHand Finger Mouse, Other Issues, and the Ergo Touchpad
Post by: burro volando on Mon, 22 March 2010, 19:06:51: Konz said:
For what it's worth: I use the built-in mouse almost exclusively. I don't do much graphical work though, and will always prefer a keyboard shortcut.

With regards to learning Datahand: I almost went crazy with the t, b, y, n keys, only a single shift key, etc. However, I couldn't live without it now.

The only gripes I have are the sunlight problem, the bug in the USB converter with regards to the PAUSE key (the converter doubles PAUSE, making it impossible to use for Windows Remote Connection, which breaks nearly all other shortcut keys), and that right ring finger in 10-key pad mode on the international version doesn't produce ENTER, as it is supposed to, which breaks one-handed number entry.

Unfortunately, Lynn wasn't able to round up their firmware programmer when I reported the ENTER problem last year, so I see scant chance that improvements such as the Dvorak arrow keys will be realized, regardless of how loud users clamor for them.

Burro responds:
I have seen people who are astonishingly fast on the DataHand finger mouse, but I am not one of them. For most of two decades, I used a trackball or the trackpad on the laptop I mounted between the hands on a modified Laplander lap desk. Now, I find the Ergonomic Touchpad is everything I would have wanted for a DataHand mouse, better than the hand mouse that was on the original DataHand model back in 1992 (the whole hand moved on a platform to do mouse work). Back then, the finger mouse was intended as a supplementary utility.

They might be able to fix the sunlight problem in the future (I say as the afternoon sun comes through the window and I have to swivel so that it does not shine on the keyboard). It will be an issue for a few minutes, but, in my opinion, it is not a big deal once it is understood. I consider it a small price to pay for the beauty of the inverted force curve on the DataHand key switches.

I thought the USB converter issue was resolved. As a Mac user with an Aten PS/2 to USB converter (model: UC-100KMA) that works on both Mac and PCs, I have no problems. But if there are still problems, it would be possible to get the company to look at a Tripplite product that could be better than the no-name Taiwanese product I think they are still using. The Tripplite option might be a solid alternative. What are the continuing problems apart from the PAUSE and ENTER? I do not think they relate to the converter.

The Pause issue is out of my area, but it sounds like a ROM programming issue. The same with the Enter on the International version. They will get back onto those issues, I think, once the problems of the Great Recession can be overcome.

In an earlier posting, Gator456 said:
Burro, I think I saw a post somewhere else by you about that touch pad. I have considered getting the touchpad you mentioned. It would seem that to use the touchpad where you have it mounted you would need to move your entire hand off the home row to use it. My thought with a touchpoint (if it was mounted below the J and K wells, that I would only need to move one finger off the home rows. All this is theoretical for me at this point since I have tried neither.

Burro responds:
My hand slides forward on the palm pad about one-half inch when I need to use the Touchpad, and that could be reduced if I moved the Touchpad a little bit to the south. That would require some additional Velcro tabs to keep it firm (so it would not tip into the key-well area when pressure is applied to the then overhanging edge). I think that could be made to work, but as it is, my middle finger moves about an inch or slightly more from the key-well to the Touchpad. That is nothing compared with moving my hand a foot or more to a trackball or a trackpad as I have long done.

The Touchpad could also be mounted vertically at the front of the palm pad (between the key-wells and the palm pad), but to do that, about a half-inch of the northern nose of the palm pad and its supporting plastic would need to be cut away to create a flat area for mounting it. That could be interesting to try if someone wanted to put their keyboard under the knife. At the moment I am happy enough with my current system, but I might get curious and want to give that idea a try in the future. With this approach all the hand movement would be eliminated.

In the meantime, my modification efforts have gone into lap desk alternatives to improve the elimination of the static stress of hand flattening. I think this a much bigger stress and productivity issue than people have ever realized.

(These responses have been written off-line, because two attempts to respond on line resulted in getting punted by the forum software with some counterintuitive message about not being able to look at a thread before logging on to make responses.)
Title: Speed of the DataHand Finger Mouse
Post by: burro volando on Mon, 22 March 2010, 19:20:47: In the manual, it explains how to change the speed of both the slow finger and the fast finger, and of course, if both are pushed together the speed is additive. They can also be pushed together in different directions to move in an arc. The problem with all this for me is that there is no acceleration and deceleration. There is a nudge feature, but it is comparatively time consuming. The people who get good with the Finger Mouse are those with the reflexes needed to hit their target accurately without the benefit of deceleration. It is like a sports skill, and some take it as a challenge, but to me it is not user friendly enough. I am glad to have finally found the Ergonomic Touchpad even though it does have some idiosyncrasies of its own.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: konz on Tue, 23 March 2010, 02:53:34: Quote from: burro volando;166238
In the manual, it explains how to change the speed of both the slow finger and the fast finger, and of course, if both are pushed together the speed is additive. They can also be pushed together in different directions to move in an arc.

The manual omits that if the slow and fast finger are pushed in opposite directions, the speeds subtract. So you can actually get four speeds: slow finger, fast finger minus slow finger, fast finger, fast finger plus slow finger. On the other hand, if you release one finger before the other when using opposite mode, you will overshoot or undershoot by a large amount. This has prevented me from using this feature on a regular basis.

On Windows with activated MouseKeys and appropriate NUMLOCK, when in cursor keys mode, the left index finger continues to move the mouse, since it is transmitting numeric keypad keys. The MouseKeys nudge is better than the DataHand nudge. On the other hand, I know of no way to actually click the mouse---this would require keypad 5, which is not available. So this is useful mainly for moving the pointer out of the way.

Quote from: burro volando;166238
The problem with all this for me is that there is no acceleration and deceleration.

Well, the manual says that J followed by H or ' respectively decreases or increases mouse acceleration. However, I haven't been able to actually see an effect of these options, although Webwit has.

Quote from: burro volando;166238
There is a nudge feature, but it is comparatively time consuming. The people who get good with the Finger Mouse are those with the reflexes needed to hit their target accurately without the benefit of deceleration. It is like a sports skill, and some take it as a challenge, but to me it is not user friendly enough.

Yes, I agree. I will usually use the fast finger to move into the vicinity and the slow finger to actually hit the target.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Wed, 24 March 2010, 10:13:53: Well I just finished 3 emails and 1 phone call with Unicomp. The don't sell what is needed. From what he said on the phone is that the Unicomp Trackpoint keyboards have 2 circuit boards. 1 for the keyboard and 1 for the TP. But there is a ribbon cable that connects the two circuit cards together. I would the have to put both boards in my DataHand.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 24 March 2010, 11:22:41: IBM KPD8923:

-There are 2 PCBs, one for TP and one for KB.
-They are NOT connected to each other.
-Each of the 2 PCBs has a 4 pin to PS/2 cable. That's it. (both PCBs are very small)

My mod thread (see my sig for link) has a pic of the TP close up and you will see the 4 pin connector on the left. Some of the ribbon cable is out of the frame, but it belongs to the buttons or TP stress unit.

I will take more pics of everything with measurements and post if you need later today.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Thu, 25 March 2010, 12:45:06: Your post has pictures of two different trackpoints. I sent both of those to Chuck at unicomp. He tried to tell me they were from a laptop. He INSISTED that was was in the pictures was not available to be purchased.

I kinda got the impression that in the past the keyboard controller and the trackpoint controller were independent, but this is no longer the case.

He INSISTED that what is available for purchase has a cable that runs between the TP controller and the keyboard controller. He was more than willing to sell me a TP plus the controller board. It is unclear if the TP controller board will operate without the connection to the keyboard.

The prices he gave me were:

The $15.00 is for the pointing stick and cable. The logic cards are $15.00 for the pointing stick logic and $12.00 for the control logic.

It looks like I would have to buy all 3 and see what could be done.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: TexasFlood on Thu, 25 March 2010, 13:52:35: Do you know if Unicomp is proposing to sell you their force-sensing resistor version of the trackpoint or the IBM strain gauge version?

I'm not saying the Unicomp version is unusable just that compared to the IBM trackpoint it feels a bit "wobbly" and takes some getting used to, as there is a bit (1mm or so) of travel in each direction before any movement of the trackpointer is detected.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Thu, 25 March 2010, 15:51:55: Dont know. I have only used the ones on Dell laptops. They have no dead zone.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 25 March 2010, 22:06:59: I am using this TP unit from the IBM KPD8923. It is what you see here (nothing more needed other than the PS/2 cable that needs to be plugged into the white 4 pin socket on left side) NOTE-on the logic board you can see 8923 printed upside down in white lettering:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6944&d=1262500053)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6942&d=1262499513)

In the second pic you can see the TP-cable-logic board-cable-dark buttons and the PS/2 cable connected (white square on logic board). The KB logic board is hidden on the upper right of the KB bottom case (under the IBM logo when KB is assembled) covered by the folded over trace/matrix. I did not remove the KB logic board, it is still screwed to the bottom case and the trace/matrix is attached, that is why it's folded over and not removed. The KB works fine by itself too. The only item that is "shared" is the double PS/2 cable, which is split at each end. There is an orange metal plate connected to the logic board in the picture as well.

It works, no issues with that at all (on my Mac, too!).
I was told the TP unit would be sold separately for about $25...but maybe they don't sell them anymore...

You can go to Ebay, there usually seem to be several in the $40-$50 range. I have not looked to see if there are other IBM models to consider.

EDIT: Since the TP is PS/2, I plugged it into my Rollermouse, which is USB, but has a PS/2 input. That is why I know it works with my Mac. I've also used it on a PC. I suppose it should work with a PS/2-USB converter or adapter.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: gator456 on Sun, 04 April 2010, 13:30:59: I was hoping to find an IBM keyboard with a TP cheap at the first Saturday surplus sale in Dallas(firstsaturday.com). I really dont want to pay $50 for a used keyboard on Ebay when similiar keyboards without a TP can be had for $5.

So here is the funny part. You always find the things you dont need at sales like this. I got a broken Kenesis classic for $8. Now I can also do a split kenesis project). I also got an IBM mouse with a touchpoint. (google image search: http://bak1.beareyes.com.cn/2/lib/200212/26/20021226106.htm)

So in the in between time I bought a ergonomictouchpad.com. It works very well but is still not like a regular mouse.

Thanks for asking.

Glenn
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 04 April 2010, 14:00:30: I am adding an Apple 360 degree scroll ball to the left side thumb cluster above backspace key, left of control key. Full mouse with 2 hands. See the very end of my mod thread (link in my sig) I added a couple pics.

Check your PM for other info.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 10 April 2010, 19:23:20: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Rt-3200-trackpoint-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ250611478224QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3a599baed0#ht_6473wt_1167

A 3 button TP on a desktop keyboard! I'm wondering if this is the same internals as the KPD8923 which has a 2 button TP (with the TP totally separate from the keyboard)?
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 04 May 2010, 22:40:14: I'm not sure where to post this...MOUSELESS BROWSING (Firefox add.) IS THE ****!

It's been mentioned here a few times, mostly by Webwit.
I'm posting in this thread because of my trackpoint/pointing device quest for the Kinesis Contour and future Datahand acquisition. I believe Mouseless Browsing is particularly functional for the Datahand by far, though I have not used this combo. MB is no slouch with the Contour, I think it's more functional on the Contour than on a standard keyboard I've tried MB with. As for splitting the Contour, an MB/trackpoint/scrollball combo is definitely looking like the accessibility standard to beat.

Thanks Webwit :)
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 04 May 2010, 22:59:58: Quote from: input nirvana;171288
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Rt-3200-trackpoint-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ250611478224QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3a599baed0#ht_6473wt_1167

A 3 button TP on a desktop keyboard! I'm wondering if this is the same internals as the KPD8923 which has a 2 button TP (with the TP totally separate from the keyboard)?

AKA IBM Space Saver II, used to see a lot of them in data center rack kits. Not a bad keyboard. Not a great keyboard. I like them, small, fairly solid build, three button trackpoint and keys are OK if not outstanding.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 04 May 2010, 23:38:24: So I need to see the internals of a Space Saver II to see if the TP can be removed...

EDIT:
Looking online...it appears to be tied into the keyboard controller :(
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:28:39: I'm going to a metal shop next week I occasionally have fab up cool stuff for me. I want to have a couple small stent type extensions made from aluminum or 20 gauge steel to lengthen the post of a laptop trackpoint to be used more easily in more full size mods. It opens up using more modern laptop trackpoints.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: TexasFlood on Wed, 05 May 2010, 07:54:15: Quote from: input nirvana;179056
So I need to see the internals of a Space Saver II to see if the TP can be removed...

EDIT:
Looking online...it appears to be tied into the keyboard controller :(

Your googling skills are better than mine as I found nothing.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 08 May 2010, 23:20:03: Tex:
This shows the Space Saver II TP going to the keyboard controller.
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: TexasFlood on Sun, 09 May 2010, 10:34:41: Quote from: input nirvana;180305
Tex:
This shows the Space Saver II TP going to the keyboard controller

Thanks for the picture input nirvana. I peeked inside a 31P9490 "ThinkPad Travel UltraNav USB Keyboard" quite a while back and that looks similar to what I remember seeing in it. At the time I was wondering if it was possible to physically disable the touchpad as I didn't think I could tolerate the keyboard if there wasn't some way to disable it. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of that.

FYI, 31P9490 is the older model of Lenovo external USB keyboard, looks like:
(http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/31p9490_thinkpad_travel_keyboard.jpg)
Title: Source for Trackpoints? USB??
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 09 May 2010, 14:27:39: TRACKPOINTS FOR MODDING OPTIONS?

Workable for uses
Readily available
Affordable

So far, this seems to be the best option: Use TP from existing keyboard. TP has a separate controller board from the keyboard. (ie: KPD8923) What if these are unavailable?

1-Use laptop TP and make post extension if needed? Don't most of these connect to the main board?

2-Use a combination TP/KB controller card, using the TP only. Any drawbacks? (ie: Space Saver II)

3-Use the TP unit from a combination TP/KB controller card, and build a controller card using parts from the TP/KB combo controller?

Are there other options that are reasonable?