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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: skcheng on Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:08:20

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:08:20

What cherry switch would be ideal for a Filco spacebar since it needs to be replaced?  The board is a cherry blue board that I just purchased from Dcozart.    White?  Brown?  Just replace it with a blue?  

Also, does anyone have a link to Filco switch replacement??  I found a link to opening up the Filco case by Rip, but not one specifically for soldering in a Filco switch.

Thanks!!

skc

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: nanu on Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:15:43

I don't think you can easily replace or modify Filco's plate-mounted Cherry MX switches.  I'm under the impression that because they're all plate-mounted, you have to desolder all switches just to access one.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:25:58

Quote from: nanu;165121

I don't think you can easily replace or modify Filco's plate-mounted Cherry MX switches.  I'm under the impression that because they're all plate-mounted, you have to desolder all switches just to access one.

I've been in touch with Brian over at Elite and this is what he had to say:

The frame on the 87key FILCOs has a tighter fit than the 104keys but
both can be opened relatively painlessly using a dull butter knife after
you've removed the screws on the back of the keyboard (1 screw on the
back of 87key and 3 screws on the back of 104key boards). Once you get
the board open your soldering/desoldering skill will come into play.
Note that the 87key boards have 2 small screws below the F1-F12 keys
that must be removed to access the back of the PCB.

Good luck!

I like the good luck part.   I'm fairly certain that Ripster along with others here have swapped out Filco switches.  

So, what would be the perfect switch for a space bar??  

skc

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:31:14

Quote from: ripster;165126

Look at the "Kinesis Keypad Cherry Key Swap" mod in the Mods section of the forum for how to swap keys.

Personally I like the Cherry blue for  spacebar in Cherry blue keyboards.  The Cherry Clear spacebar for Cherry brown keyboards.

Thanks Rip.  I'll check that out.  While I'm swapping out the switch, I'll swap out the majority of the keys for double shots.   I bought 3 keyboards for the appropriate keys LOL.   And it looks like I'll probably keep the bottom row standard like you did.  

skc

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: nanu on Thu, 18 March 2010, 20:12:37

It makes sense to me now.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8509&stc=1&d=1268960977)

In the absence of a mounting plate the PCB-mounted MX switch has a pair of fixation pins, one to either side of the switchpost at the bottom center, to ensure a proper alignment for soldering.  The restriction imposed by a mounting plate is that you cannot open up a switch while it's still soldered in place, because the 4 clips on the sides are blocked by the plate, but indeed the mounting plate still only serves to align switches.  Switches are removed from above the plate.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Thu, 18 March 2010, 21:50:04

I'm on a horse.

Relevance? None.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: elservo on Fri, 19 March 2010, 00:32:16

I can't believe Canada decided to move away from the red Mountie coats.  Big mistake if you ask me.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Fri, 19 March 2010, 11:48:23

Since when?!?

I can deal with the coats I guess...but the hats stay.

(you may know what I'm talking about)

I've only seen an RCMP officer in full dress uniform once. For the most part they drive around in lame-ass Chevy Impalas (sorry if you have an Impala, anyone, but that is not a police car...nothing FWD belongs in a police fleet) and wear whatever the brown uniform is called in my area.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: trievalot on Sat, 20 March 2010, 06:55:14

you asked for it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RjMSWhGWak

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 21 March 2010, 03:07:59

Quote from: kishy;165416

Since when?!?

I can deal with the coats I guess...but the hats stay.

(you may know what I'm talking about)

I've only seen an RCMP officer in full dress uniform once. For the most part they drive around in lame-ass Chevy Impalas (sorry if you have an Impala, anyone, but that is not a police car...nothing FWD belongs in a police fleet) and wear whatever the brown uniform is called in my area.

I've never seen an RCMP officer before. I do know someone who works at an RCMP office though, but, just standard business clothes. They threw out all of the IBM model Ms they were using because to get "new" keyboards (still like the RCMP?).

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Sun, 21 March 2010, 11:30:18

I think the presence of RCMP in my city (which has its own police force + local provincial police presence) relates to North America's most significant border crossings being here.

The Americans got mad that we were being friendly.

Filco switch swaps to RCMP? This is a new one...

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 23 March 2010, 11:15:22

Not to derail the current Canadian discussion, but I finally found some time to remove the broken space bar switch.  Just like Rip described, remove 2 solder connections and the switch pops right out.  I just had to take the switch apart to see why it's broken and this is what I found:

(http://fototime.com/F471AFE110ACCC5/medium.jpg)

(http://fototime.com/728FEF60BD950A3/medium.jpg)

(http://fototime.com/491C1C92D8D94D8/medium.jpg)

So, what do you think caused this??  Switch is totally corroded?

skc

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 23 March 2010, 13:44:18

I don't see how gold plated contacts could corrode like that. Either Cherry's QC has completely gone down the drain, or Costar uses counterfeit switches.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 March 2010, 13:47:30

Yeah, I kinda thought that was the point of using gold on the contacts.  That might be why some people have experienced switch bounce (chattering) in their older Filcos.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kriminal on Tue, 23 March 2010, 13:54:08

this is not good news

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 23 March 2010, 13:55:46

The instances of chatter are pretty few and far between but something to be aware of.
 
I wish I could see the pics, though. They are getting blocked here at work.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 23 March 2010, 14:07:09

@skcheng: Would you please upload some photos at high resolution?

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 23 March 2010, 15:39:41

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;166362

@skcheng: Would you please upload some photos at high resolution?

Here you go Mental:

(http://www.fototime.com/F471AFE110ACCC5/orig.jpg)

(http://www.fototime.com/491C1C92D8D94D8/orig.jpg)

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 23 March 2010, 15:47:30

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;166351

I don't see how gold plated contacts could corrode like that. Either Cherry's QC has completely gone down the drain, or Costar uses counterfeit switches.

I was just thinking that maybe something was spilled onto the switch??   I checked the keyboard and the rest of the switches appear to work fine??  That almost looks like battery acid on the contacts?

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: clickclack on Tue, 23 March 2010, 19:39:14

Water can cause that kind of corrosion/oxidation, but more likely a juice drink (perhaps citrus) would cause something like that. One would think soda pop would do that but soda pop can be used to clean copper.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Tue, 23 March 2010, 19:55:04

It's green...like the way copper corrodes.

It does look a bit like battery acid though, like the remnants of those old barrel-shaped CMOS batteries on really old motherboards.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 24 March 2010, 02:23:11

For gods sakes man, can someone with a background in metallurgy tell me what is going on here?  Does this mean the Gold crosspoint MX switch on the filco is Copper and predisposed to corrosion?

Anyone?  Ripster, you used to be a metalluragist right?

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 24 March 2010, 02:45:28

Quote from: elbowglue;166465

For gods sakes man, can someone with a background in metallurgy tell me what is going on here?  Does this mean the Gold crosspoint MX switch on the filco is Copper and predisposed to corrosion?

Anyone?  Ripster, you used to be a metalluragist right?

This is simple corrosion/oxidation, perhaps advanced at somepoint by some spillage. The gold crosspoint technology refers to the very tiny vertical and horizontal contacts on those copper leaf contacts. The very tips of them seem to be gold plated. On the older (but current style) cherry switches there seems to be either a higher propensity to corrode but this could be due to a variety of reasons, different alloy, purity, factory oils, age, plating... and so on. I am not sure however if the older cherry switches have the gold contacts or if they have just worn so much that you cant tell anymore.

In all  honesty I wouldn't worry too much, if at all.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 24 March 2010, 02:55:04

I was just looking at the pics again and noticed that the two copper contacts are not making contact! If they have been bent out of the way to somehow illustrate the problem then nevermind. If however they are not bent out of the way on purpose then that would most certainly cause a problem. Just take a pair of pliers or tweezers or toothpics... and bend it back. I just figure I should point that out just in case it was not on purpose, if it was then...umm.... just kidding =P

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 24 March 2010, 07:48:24

Quote from: clickclack;166467

I was just looking at the pics again and noticed that the two copper contacts are not making contact! If they have been bent out of the way to somehow illustrate the problem then nevermind. If however they are not bent out of the way on purpose then that would most certainly cause a problem. Just take a pair of pliers or tweezers or toothpics... and bend it back. I just figure I should point that out just in case it was not on purpose, if it was then...umm.... just kidding =P

This was my first attempt at removing a switch from a Filco board and I sort of just ripped it out.   And they I used needle nose pliers to take the switch apart.    So I probably bent the contacts inadvertently.  

Still......that's a LOT of corrosion on a "newish" switch.   And I'm assuming a liquid spill of some kind??   I don't want to believe that the switch would just oxidize like that after only a short time in operation??

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Wed, 24 March 2010, 08:09:45

Doczart mentioned the broken switch in his sales ad. Did you ask him if anything unusual happened to that board? Guess you don't feel like desoldering and opening another working switch to see if there are any signs of corrosion too?

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 24 March 2010, 08:21:00

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;166493

Doczart mentioned the broken switch in his sales ad. Did you ask him if anything unusual happened to that board? Guess you don't feel like desoldering and opening another working switch to see if there are any signs of corrosion too?

I bought a bunch of switches from DigiKey so I might take a few of the other switches out to inspect.   Not difficult to do.  I should probably make a tool to remove these switches to make removal easier.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Wed, 24 March 2010, 08:31:49

I just had a really dumb idea.

Solder in a white Alps switch instead :D

(in case it's not obvious, I realize how impractical this is)

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 24 March 2010, 09:09:23

Quote from: kishy;166500

I just had a really dumb idea.

Solder in a white Alps switch instead :D

(in case it's not obvious, I realize how impractical this is)

I'm new here.......and quite impressionable  :smile:

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: kishy on Wed, 24 March 2010, 11:12:21

Quote from: skcheng;166513

I'm new here.......and quite impressionable  :smile:

Well...what can I say? Don't listen to me lol.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 24 March 2010, 13:16:37

Switch swapped out and two solder dots and I'm up and running.   Really not that bad.   And I'm happy it was only one faulty switch.   Just tested everything again and all is well.   If I can swap out a switch, anyone can.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 25 March 2010, 00:47:42

Quote from: ripster;166674

After extensive RS MIZAR M24 testing I've determined....................................................................

You really don't want to know.

Show Image

(http://dudespaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/thug-peeing-rug.jpg)

A shame really.  That rug really tied the room together.

But Rip, I licked the broken switch and it didn't taste of urine???    :tongue1:

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Thu, 20 May 2010, 08:51:43

Yeah, looks like copper oxidation...

Regarding the quality control thing:
There is no flawless QC! Look at NASA and airlines, I guess they have some very strict QC...
Still, there are exploding rockets, space-shuttles, death-stars, and even snakes on a plane :P

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 20 May 2010, 09:11:14

Quote from: TheSoulhunter;184644

Yeah, looks like copper oxidation...

Regarding the quality control thing:
There is no flawless QC! Look at NASA and airlines, I guess they have some very strict QC...
Still, there are exploding rockets, space-shuttles, death-stars, and even snakes on a plane :P

Yeah, but none of that compares to the stress of a non-functioning cherry switch  :)

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: JBert on Thu, 20 May 2010, 14:15:27

Quote from: TheSoulhunter;184644

Yeah, looks like copper oxidation...

Regarding the quality control thing:
There is no flawless QC! Look at NASA and airlines, I guess they have some very strict QC...
Still, there are exploding rockets, space-shuttles, death-stars, and even snakes on a plane :P

It used to be different. Read Feynman's observations on the reliability of the space shuttle (http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/challenger-appendix.html) for more details.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 20 May 2010, 15:11:46

Quote from: JBert;184885

It used to be different. Read Feynman's observations on the reliability of the space shuttle (http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/challenger-appendix.html) for more details.

Feynman breaks his own Feynman-Tufte principle:  A visual display of data should be simple enough to fit on the side of a van. That page is too dense.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: JBert on Thu, 20 May 2010, 16:10:39

He ain't going to fix it, that's for sure.

Title: Filco Spacebar Switch Exchange
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 20 May 2010, 18:03:09

Quote from: skcheng;166675

But Rip, I licked the broken switch and it didn't taste of urine???

You people are just not right  :)