geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Grossmeister on Thu, 14 December 2017, 09:37:41
-
Hi,
I was reading this forum for quite long time before posting, but couldn't get enough information to pick a keyboard.
Now here are input parameters:
* I never had a mechanical keyboard, I hate 99% of membrane keyboards and I really like scissor-based keyboards, especially those used by ThinkPads (that means I am looking for a keyboard with short travel, good feedback and minimal or nonexistent click)
* Want to try a mechanical keyboard
* I don't need any backlight or additional buttons
* Looking for TKL (87 keys) version
* First of all it must be very comfortable for typing, only after that gaming usage is coming
Now, I initially read some theory and saw that Browns must be the best option, cause, as people say "they offer tactile feedback w/o clicky sound of Blue".
I checked some Tesoros, one with Chery MX Blue and another one with Kailh Brown, I really liked Blue feedback, but I didn't like its sound, but as for Browns, I found their feedback almost nonexistent, also different keys had different feeling - some gave more feedback, others much less.
Then I checked HyperX line with Blues, Browns and Reds. As for Blues I had the same impression as with Tesoro, I really didn't like Browns because their feedback was even harder to detect then on Tesoro with Kailh Brown. I also really liked Reds, I assume they can be very good for gaming, since it is easy to press fast and they are very light, but since they have no feedback I don't think I can type on them.
And finally I checked SteelSeries Apex 100 (I didn't know it was membrane) - I really liked both feedback and silence, but I'm not going to buy it because: 1) I don't believe membrane can keep that nice feeling for a long time, 2) its not TKL, 3) it is being sold locally for $50 which is a huge overprice.
I couldn't try any "cool" keyboards like with PBT caps, or Topre switches or some other types.
As a result - I really didn't like Browns, because instead of what I read about them like "they avoid drawbacks of both Blues and Reds" I found that first of all they lack benefits of both Blues and Reds: they don't have nice Blue feedback and they don't have nice Red speed.
Now I'm thinking what should I buy. I consider the following options:
* CM MasterKeys S PBT TKL Blue $80 - though I have no idea how it is going to feel :)
* Cheap (~ $30) Outemu Blue TKL keyboard, there is a bunch of them on Amazon: Aukey, Tecware, Plugable, TOMOKO
* Something else?
About that "something else". I saw a thread about Apex 100 and people say that "it feels like a cheap NovaTouch". Unfortunately, NovaTouch seems to be discontinued. Is there something else in mechanical world with the same feedback? Because to me - Apex 100 felt exactly like "non-clicky Blue mechanical keyboard". Or, maybe another company makes cheap TKL keyboard based on these membrane switches?
Thanks.
-
I would suggest that you try a Logitech G Pro. It is TKL and the switches are mechanical but unique for Logitech: short key travel but a little bit like the Cherry MX Brown. Also, the backlighting looks better on Logitechs boards than on anything I have seen with Cherry MX (-like) switches.
"Steelseries Apex" is a product line that contains both rubberdome and mechanical keyboards. The mechs have a product number starting with an M, such as M400 or M500.
-
Clear switches are pretty tactile and silent. Far superior to browns imo. They can be a little heavy so you may want to swap out the springs for something else
-
None of the Cherry switches are very tactile. It sounds like you might be a good candidate for Matias switches (http://matias.ca/miniquietpro/pc/).
-
There arenīt a lot of good tactile alternatives in MX easily available (imo). The most similar tactility as the blue should be the clear switch, however the mechanism is a bit different.
Elitekeyboards have some very good illustrations on this:
Here is the MX BLUE
(http://i.imgur.com/gPj2k.gif)
And here is the actuation table for it:
(http://www.elitekeyboards.com/suppdata/images/cherrybluemx.png)
Here on the other hand is a Clear and a brown switch:
(http://i.imgur.com/pqGA9.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/O8djh.gif)
(http://www.elitekeyboards.com/suppdata/images/cherrybrownmx.png)
Sadly I could only find the actuation table for the brown, but as you can see they are very similar, but the bump is bigger on the clear = a more tactile switch. However they cant mimick the blue-switch-feel exactly since the moving part inside of the MX-Blue creates more force just before the switch actuates, and require less force right after the click.
The mechanism that was used in Nocatouch is topre. The topre boards are not as easily found but they all are very well built. I do think that the tactile feeling of a Topre switch is more like a clicky switch but it doesnīt click like a MX Blue. Example of a TKL topre boards is the Realforce.
If you invest more money it should get you a more solid board with higher build quality, but the ones you listed are all very good keyboards.
Edit: There is also a mod you can do to the MX Blue that is called jailhouse blues. You essentialy block the moving part of the switch, just creating a tactile switch. This mod is very time consuming and removes the original MX-Blue feel, and by the looks of it, it should act more like a MX-Clear.
Picture in courtesy of Giorgio:
(http://i.imgur.com/ITw7MxR.jpg)
-
Unfortunately its impossible to find or even buy keyboard with Clear switches here locally, but I remember that I removed them from my checklist after reading reviews here, many people said these switches make their fingers tired - and my current #1 ThinkPad laptop scissors keyboard keys are very light. Also, Clears are hard to find. Anyway, thanks for reminder, I will check them again.
About Matias - I don't see standard TKL on their website, all keyboards are either full size or really small.
The Realforce TKL keyboards are really expensive. I have them on my list but for future. :) I'm not ready to spend that amount of money for a keyboard I can't try.
Coming back to my options from initial post:
1) CM PBT Cherry Blue - can you tell, in general, do PBT caps make Blue click more loud or more silent than ABS caps?
2) What would you recommend to go with in a cheap (~$30) price range (with Blue non-Cherry switches)? I guess this might be a good place to start, get more clear opinion based on real experience and then deciding what to do next.
-
It's not made by Matias but KBParadise makes a pretty standard TKL board that uses Matias switches, the V80.
Though really there are no silent switches that are as tactile as some of the clicky options out there, not even Matias's. The fact of the matter is, most mechanisms for adding tactility also generate some noise.
-
I hate 99% of membrane keyboards and I really like scissor-based keyboards
Membrane is typically (outside microwave ovens) an alternative to a solid circuit board or wires. IBM Model M or Cherry G81 are membrane keyboards.
"Scissor switch" is almost always only a stabilization mechanism for a rubber dome without a slider; typically paired with a circuit printed on membranes.
About Matias - I don't see standard TKL on their website, all keyboards are either full size or really small.
KBP V80
Also, Matias * Mini have 75% layout, i.e., only two columns smaller (minus ~6 physical keys). That's not what I call "really small", just less standard but more convenient than tenkeyless.
do PBT caps make Blue click more loud or more silent than ABS caps?
The difference stemming from material density is negligible. Keycap profile and thickness make much more of a difference.
Though really there are no silent switches that are as tactile
There are no silent switches with moving parts, period. That's basic physics.
-
Though really there are no silent switches that are as tactile
There are no silent switches with moving parts, period. That's basic physics.
Are you seriously being this pedantic? There is no such thing as a keyboard without moving parts in the first place, unless you're talking about a touchscreen or something. Obviously 'silent' was meant to be relative here. Matias's Quiet Click switches, for example, are very quiet switches that are still tactile. Just not as tactile as the clicky version.
BTW, while moving parts often do generate noise, the physics behind that is actually fairly complex. Nothing 'basic' about it.
-
Using "silent" to mean "quiet" is generally typical modern ignorance, but coming from a marketing department is pure deceit. "Silent" mechanical keyboards (including those from Matias) all make far more noise than a scissor switch keyboard, so how can a scissor switch make less noise than silence?
"silent" is not a relative term, and using it in that manner is worthless. Besides, it's not just a case of pure amplitude, but also pitch and frequency spread.
-
+1 for Matias switches. Person I'd also go with gateron variants over cherry. Much smoother feel.
-
If you like scissor switches, you will LOVE alps. Matias is the modern equivalent, and they are very tactile. You could also look for vintage keyboards with black alps. Although black alps are kind of rough for alps switches, they are cheap, and you will get an idea of the typing feel, as long as you remember that black alps are pretty low on the totem pole, and others are much better.
The quiet pro from matias feels very tactile, and is also very quiet, due to rubber dampeners. You will probably love them if you think the sacrifices are worth the silence.
-
Based on user feedback at amazon, mechanicalkeyboards and here, KBParadise V80MTS quality very much depends on exact sample.
-
As mentioned the only way to really make blues/greens quiet is jailhousing them, while I am a big supporter of it, it's far from something someone new to the hobby should be doing. Very far. Short of making your own keyboard, it's probably the most hardcore mod you can do.
My advice to the op is to look into the Matias, the new Razer keyboard (it's not actually mechanical, but feels like it, beware they were changed so buy somewhere you can try it) or the Logitech line (these too changed but for the better). People here often place far too much emphasis on the mechanical aspect, yes, they tend to last longer, but wear is not usually what kills non-mechanical keyboards anyway, it usually damage (food, water...) or they get a new one with a new computer.
So ignore the longevity and hype and just buy what feels good.
Edit: There is also a mod you can do to the MX Blue that is called jailhouse blues. You essentialy block the moving part of the switch, just creating a tactile switch. This mod is very time consuming and removes the original MX-Blue feel, and by the looks of it, it should act more like a MX-Clear.
Even when locked, Blues, despite how it looks on charts (or even when measured with a micrometer) are surprisingly more tactile than Clears.
The bumps are very similar in measurement, but how they ramp up to activate is different giving a different, more tactile feel.
Also, Jailhousing them cuts travel in half, which is very noticeable.
-
Just a heads up... I would wait and see what Zeal has for the silent switches over the next few months. Gateron silent browns with a heavy spring might also be a great option.
-
As mentioned the only way to really make blues/greens quiet is jailhousing them, while I am a big supporter of it, it's far from something someone new to the hobby should be doing. Very far. Short of making your own keyboard, it's probably the most hardcore mod you can do.
My advice to the op is to look into the Matias, the new Razer keyboard (it's not actually mechanical, but feels like it, beware they were changed so buy somewhere you can try it) or the Logitech line (these too changed but for the better). People here often place far too much emphasis on the mechanical aspect, yes, they tend to last longer, but wear is not usually what kills non-mechanical keyboards anyway, it usually damage (food, water...) or they get a new one with a new computer.
So ignore the longevity and hype and just buy what feels good.
Edit: There is also a mod you can do to the MX Blue that is called jailhouse blues. You essentialy block the moving part of the switch, just creating a tactile switch. This mod is very time consuming and removes the original MX-Blue feel, and by the looks of it, it should act more like a MX-Clear.
Even when locked, Blues, despite how it looks on charts (or even when measured with a micrometer) are surprisingly more tactile than Clears.
The bumps are very similar in measurement, but how they ramp up to activate is different giving a different, more tactile feel.
Also, Jailhousing them cuts travel in half, which is very noticeable.
I think some of the tactility in jailhouses has to to with how the slider isn't TOTALLY locked in place, and does jerk a bit after the bump, and thus, acts a bit like a tactile leaf. I have done the mod before and it does feel different than a clear switch, which one would assume it would feel like, which only makes sense if there is something else going on.
-
I think some of the tactility in jailhouses has to to with how the slider isn't TOTALLY locked in place, and does jerk a bit after the bump, and thus, acts a bit like a tactile leaf. I have done the mod before and it does feel different than a clear switch, which one would assume it would feel like, which only makes sense if there is something else going on.
Jspacers pretty solidly lock slider in place, I assume o-rings are pretty similar, the wire method leaves a bit of slop.
Like I said, it's all in the ramps. Because of the two piece slicer, the blue has a shorter ramp, you can see this on the force graph as clears have a gentle ramp up and fall over, while blues ramp up slowly, almost flat, then as it nears the switch point ramps up sharply followed by a fast drop off. It's like going over a slight rise in the road versus a speed bump.
Interestingly, if you start too close or even on the ramp itself, the switch will almost feel like there is just resistance then a collapse, this is the case with some of shorter throw Kailh speed switches, a feel I didn't like.
From WASD
Blues:
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/guide/graph-mx-blue.jpg)
Clears:
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/guide/graph-mx-clear.jpg)
-
I have never used jspacers, but I used o'rings, which still allows the slider to wobble a bit. I always assumed this contributed the most to the feel, but you may very well be right. Of course, my experience may have been tainted by using an oring too small for the job, but I did like the feel it left me with.
I ended up ordering a batch of gateron greens, as I intended to jailhouse them all, but laziness got the better of me, and I ended up just lubing them. It is quite the undertaking jailhousing a whole set for a keyboard.
-
It is quite the undertaking jailhousing a whole set for a keyboard.
It's quite the undertaking. :))
-
It is quite the undertaking jailhousing a whole set for a keyboard.
It's quite the undertaking. :))
Did it the other day
It was quite the undertaking...... lol
-
[attach=1]
-
After more reading about different switches (I found that ThinkPad keyboards have ~60g actuation force - close to Cherry MX Clear), I decided to go with Ducky One TKL MX Clear with PBT. Option #2 is KUL ES-87 TKL MX Clear with ABS. Does anyone have something to say against one or another? :)
-
PBT is the way to go
.
-
PBT is the way to go
.
thin PBT is not much better than thin ABS.
You have to get thick on either. Its all subjective though. In general just avoid the cheap painted abs caps you get with your Chinese see-through rgb 'gaming' setups.
-
thin PBT is not much better than thin ABS.
Define "better".
PBT should resist shine better than ABS (coatings aside) regardless of thickness.
PBT is more/less resistant to different kinds of damage compared to ABS.
Thickness affects key acoustics much more than material (when comparing those plastics, there are other outliers, such as metal. wood or gel).
-
thin PBT is not much better than thin ABS.
Define "better".
PBT should resist shine better than ABS (coatings aside) regardless of thickness.
PBT is more/less resistant to different kinds of damage compared to ABS.
Thickness affects key acoustics much more than material (when comparing those plastics, there are other outliers, such as metal. wood or gel).
That may be true, but thin PBT also feel like a cheap Chinese knockoff plastic.
Even with shine (which is overplayed by many in my opinion), I would rather have ABS over thin PBT, I cannot stand the feel. Thick PBT on the other hand, is fantastic.
-
I would think that thin PBT would be more prone to warpage, which may end up costing more in the long run, which explains why PBT caps are usually thicker. Beyond that, PBT does have a different sound as it is harder and more brittle than ABS, and PBT does not require flame retardants to be added, which means they don't yellow. Since they are harder, they also take much longer before they shine up. In most keyboards I find with shattered caps though, the caps were PBT. However, those keyboards were HEAVILY abused. Worth thinking about though.
-
Which PBT caps are installed on Ducky One, thin or thick? And caps on Leopold FC750R - are they thicker or thinner then Ducky's?