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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: phototristan on Wed, 31 March 2010, 20:04:05

Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: phototristan on Wed, 31 March 2010, 20:04:05: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver' clone of the IBM Model M Spacesaver with no number pad but with USB and Windows key like their other keyboards.

I think that would sell very well. I know I would definitely purchase.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 31 March 2010, 20:18:45: That has been flogged to death here but I think the general consensus is that Unicomp is a small company that is cruising into the sunset.
It doesn't have the money or desire to create a new model.
But yes, if they produced one, I would buy one.

Join the club : )
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 March 2010, 20:28:01: I think the technical answer had something to do with them needing to re-create/engineer the components. Like pook said, too, they have the company riding on autopilot right now.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: phototristan on Wed, 31 March 2010, 21:22:02: I don't know why it would be any more difficult than them making the current keyboards that they make. If they have inherited the tooling for that model from Lexmark/IBM that is.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 31 March 2010, 21:26:57: I spoke to Chuck during a keycap order (a little cheaper than Webwits metal masterpieces) and the kicker is what Unicomp used to sell the Space Saving keyboard for...... $59!!!

Chuck did mention that if the demand increased 100x from where it is now, that they would reconsider manufacturing the board.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: D-EJ915 on Wed, 31 March 2010, 22:16:33: Yeah that guy on ebay who sells them will go out of business lol
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: phototristan on Wed, 31 March 2010, 22:39:28: I want one in USB and with the extra Windows key.

I had a Model M (not Spacesaver) for a while and missed not having the extra key. I had assigned Option (I'm on OSX) to the Caps lock key but I got tired of that.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 01 April 2010, 03:36:59: Quote from: phototristan;168539
I don't know why it would be any more difficult than them making the current keyboards that they make. If they have inherited the tooling for that model from Lexmark/IBM that is.

Well, if they had a magic machine that just spat out keyboards I'm sure they could do it. The economic realities of manufacturing are such that they'd have to spend a load of money to get the production line up and running again, probably have to deal with various legal issues such as FCC certificaiton and then the engineering costs of adding various modern doohickies such as USB and Windows keys. All this would be exasperated by the fact that the internals of the 84-key are based on the older design of Model M (detachable cable, old-school controller etc) which is quite different to the 42H' based ones, meaning that they'd probably have to re-engineer it to be more similar to their other models, or spend more time and expense having it use it's own electronics. Then of course you need volume, so they'd need to know that they could sell 50,000+ to make it worth their time. That realistically isn't going to happen.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: spremino on Thu, 01 April 2010, 04:08:37: Quote from: skcheng;168540
I spoke to Chuck during a keycap order (a little cheaper than Webwits metal masterpieces) and the kicker is what Unicomp used to sell the Space Saving keyboard for...... $59!!!

Chuck did mention that if the demand increased 100x from where it is now, that they would reconsider manufacturing the board.

Well, I guess they could double the price and lower the demand threshold down to 50x.

I'm still convinced that Unicomp lacks decent marketing. Das Keyboard managed to ship three (buggy) releases and is still selling. Are they doing that at a loss?
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 01 April 2010, 04:14:28: Again, the issue here is not as much price as it is volume. People who want one of these things are as likely to pay $100 for it as they are likely to pay $50, or even $150. The issue is trying to get enough people to buy enough of them in a sufficient space of time as to allow them to break even on the initial costs and make a worthwhile profit. For a company with non-existent marketing manufacturing for a niche market, this is not easy.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: Half-Saint on Thu, 01 April 2010, 06:42:20: I wonder are they making any new keyboards at all or just selling old stock at the moment?

cheers
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 01 April 2010, 08:07:20: They are. They do live old off stock to an extent - I'm certain that their silver keys (or at least some of them) are just beige ones dyed a different colour. I'm pretty sure they also make their own keycaps, but the fact that they make keyboards with a weird mixture of two-piece and one-piece keycaps suggest that they are using old ones to an extent.

Oh, and the electronics are copyrighted Unicomp from the 2000s.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: salcan on Thu, 01 April 2010, 08:21:28: Quote from: ch_123;168584
Again, the issue here is not as much price as it is volume. People who want one of these things are as likely to pay $100 for it as they are likely to pay $50, or even $150. The issue is trying to get enough people to buy enough of them in a sufficient space of time as to allow them to break even on the initial costs and make a worthwhile profit. For a company with non-existent marketing manufacturing for a niche market, this is not easy.

Exactly. I think it's easy to underestimate just how niche of a market this is.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Thu, 01 April 2010, 08:28:59: Quote from: ripster;168541
I think Chuck is spot on. Webwit and I could lose serious bucks if they started flooding the market.

Me too!!!!

I've spoke to Chuck numerous times in the past. VERY NICE GUY!!!!!!
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 01 April 2010, 10:11:49: Quote from: ch_123;168584
For a company with non-existent marketing manufacturing for a niche market, this is not easy.
And, of course, the other problem is that we're not the niche they're manufacturing for.

Their core business is corporate customers which used genuine IBM/Lexmark product in the past and wish to remain with it. Like the Japanese corporate customers of Topre, they presumably have found that a quality keyboard reduces typing errors and increases speed.

So, they did go to the extent of making a modified full-size keyboard with Windows keys, since their corporate customers would want to keep up with the times to that extent, but a tenkeyless is mainly a home enthusiast sort of thing.

At one point, based on discussions here of their limitations, I had thought that perhaps they could just change the electronics, without changing the mechanical design of the keyboard, and produce something interesting based on the terminal keyboards with one extra key over the 101/102 key design. But it's their keyboard with Windows keys for which they offer some custom preprogramming, and they have no dynamically programmable keyboard at this time. (That is a common enough point-of-sale product, I'm actually surprised they haven't branched out to that.)
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: phototristan on Thu, 01 April 2010, 17:26:48: It still doesn't make sense to me; why would Unicomp create their own 'Spacesaver' which was not even a model ever produced by IBM (or was it?). And then not produce the real Spacesaver model that was in fact made by IBM?
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 01 April 2010, 20:24:49: You know, Unicomp made space savers in the late 1990's. I'd bet you all they've still got the equipment to make them.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 02 April 2010, 04:45:47: I think we've established that it's a bit more complicated than who has the machinery or not.

Quote
It still doesn't make sense to me; why would Unicomp create their own 'Spacesaver' which was not even a model ever produced by IBM (or was it?).

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1946&d=1232367712)

The 5576-C01, manufactured by Lexmark for IBM Japan.

Quote
I blame sloppy research by Geekhack oldtimers. It comes from relying on internet sources like Wikipedia and vendors like Clickykeyboards.

"Space Saving Keyboard" is a bit of a mouthful though isn't it? This is why I prefer the term "Mini" or "84-key Model M"
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: pfink on Fri, 02 April 2010, 09:57:16: Quote from: microsoft windows;168777
You know, Unicomp made space savers in the late 1990's. I'd bet you all they've still got the equipment to make them.

Unicomp *sold* Space Savers in the '90s, however I thought it was already determined that they were leftover stock from IBM/Lexmark.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 02 April 2010, 10:44:10: I wonder if you asked them very nicely whether they'd make an Industrial Grey keyboard for you...
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: kishy on Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:10:59: Quote from: ch_123;168828

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1946&d=1232367712)
thful though isn't it? This is why I prefer the term "Mini" or "84-key Model M"

Whoa...is that the same casing as a Unicomp Endurapro?
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:12:51: C'mon, Kishy, that's been posted on here a bunch. You disappoint me, son.
Title: Why doesn't Unicomp make a real 'SpaceSaver'?
Post by: kishy on Fri, 02 April 2010, 13:24:47: Quote from: itlnstln;168935
C'mon, Kishy, that's been posted on here a bunch. You disappoint me, son.

Uh...April Fools!

Damnit.