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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Zobeid Zuma on Wed, 24 January 2018, 21:39:58

Title: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Wed, 24 January 2018, 21:39:58: Several months back I got a couple of testers with a wide assortment of switches. After a lot of playing around with them in various combinations and conditions, the ones I kept coming back to were the Kailh BOX Pale Blue (clicky) and BOX Burnt Orange (tactile) switches. I wanted to build at least one keyboard with each of those. I'm typing on a Pale Blue board now, and I'm happy with it. Burnt Orange is another story.

They've been out of stock with "no ETA" at NovelKeys for months now. I heard first that they had about 10% with defective "twisted" stems from the first batch, and that Kailh was going to fix that. I waited patiently. Now I'm seeing that KBDFans still sells them. Apparently Kailh (or Kaihua) never stopped producing them, but NovelKeys just stopped carrying them until the stem problem is resolved. But that opens a question: Are Kailh actually working on a fix, or do they even admit there's a problem?

Making the situation more complicated, we've now got the BOX Hako True and Clear switches coming out. I haven't tried them yet, but I've heard good things. (Oh, and there's also the Aliaz silent switch coming out!) And there are certainly lots of other good options, but maybe I shouldn't get lured into chasing the newest thing? Or should I just order the Burnt Orange switches plus a few extras and then sort out any that seem defective myself?

It's not an urgent decision, since I'm still waiting on the PCB kits that I pre-ordered, and it'll probably be another two or three weeks on those (at a guess). Still a bit frustrating that something I thought I already had settled now has to be figured all over again.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 24 January 2018, 22:09:32: To me the Hako True and Clear force curves (by Haata) look more rounded than the sharp tactility drop off for the box heavy pale blues. It sounds like input club was shooting for a Topre like feel for the Hako switches, and I'm not interested in that (not a huge fan of actual Topre).
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Harms on Wed, 24 January 2018, 22:59:58: I'm also waiting for the fix for burnt oranges...

I was tempted to buy them off KBD Fans, but did not want to deal with the stem twist issue.

Hopefully the problem is fixed sometime soon.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Kevadu on Thu, 25 January 2018, 01:25:49: Is post this in the right board?

I have some Halo Trues (close enough) and I love them. It's true though that they are not very tactile at all in the traditional sense. But step back a second and ask yourself why are switches tactile? Generally the point is to let you know by feel when the switch actuates. Usually this is done by having a tactile event (a bump followed by a dip) before/during actuation.

The really unique thing about Trues is how much the slow of their force curve increases post actuation. The primary point of this is to discourage bottoming out, which is generally agreed to be a bad thing but still happens pretty frequently on most mechanical boards. The large post-actuation force really does work to prevent bottoming out and gives your typing a unique springy feeling. But going back to my point above there's also a secondary effect: with the large change in the force required it's also very easy to tell by feel when the switch has activated. It's completely different than a traditional tactile switch but it definitely works.

So no, Trues are not tactile in the traditional sense and they really don't feel like other tactile switches. They feel better.

Also I don't know why everybody compares them to Topre. Sure they're both very smooth switches but the defining characteristic of these switches to me is that large increase in force required post actuation, which Topre really doesn't have (at least not until you've almost bottomed out...). I think the Halo/Hako Clears are supposed to be more of a traditional tactile switch and don't have quite the extreme bottoming out force that Trues have (though it's still more than most switches), so they're probably a lot more Topre-like. But Trues are not.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Thu, 25 January 2018, 07:28:13: Quote from: Kevadu on Thu, 25 January 2018, 01:25:49
The primary point of this is to discourage bottoming out, which is generally agreed to be a bad thing but still happens pretty frequently on most mechanical boards. The large post-actuation force really does work to prevent bottoming out and gives your typing a unique springy feeling.

Generally agreed to be a bad thing? Agreed by who?

Based on what I've seen on YouTube and various forums, I suspect at least half of the guys saying we shouldn't bottom out have never even learned to touch type.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 25 January 2018, 07:43:27: We'll, I didn't mean to start a debate on the merits of Hako switches, just that the force curves behind those and the Novelkeys heavy click switches are very different. If you really enjoy sharp "drop-off" tactile feel as I do (and I think you do because you enjoy the pale blues), then know that you won't get that same feeling from Hakos.

Speaking to your point about feeling like you want to try everything that people like, I recommend filtering reviews through what you've discovered of your own preferences. For example, I could see a review of a linear switch calling it the smoothest, least scratchy switch ever, and I'd still never want to try it because I simply don't like linear switches.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Thu, 25 January 2018, 12:58:30: Quote from: Techno Trousers on Thu, 25 January 2018, 07:43:27
We'll, I didn't mean to start a debate on the merits of Hako switches, just that the force curves behind those and the Novelkeys heavy click switches are very different. If you really enjoy sharp "drop-off" tactile feel as I do (and I think you do because you enjoy the pale blues), then know that you won't get that same feeling from Hakos.

Well, I definitely like the feeling of the BOX Burnt Orange sample switch that I got. It has a distinct tactile bump right at the beginning of travel, and then it's smooth the rest of the way. It doesn't sound like Hakos are that.

I built a keypad with Kailh Pro Heavy Burgundy (tactile) switches, and I have a couple of samples of Outemu Ice Purple here, so I might consider those as alternatives.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Kevadu on Thu, 25 January 2018, 18:14:55: Quote from: Zobeid Zuma on Thu, 25 January 2018, 07:28:13
Generally agreed to be a bad thing? Agreed by who?

Based on what I've seen on YouTube and various forums, I suspect at least half of the guys saying we shouldn't bottom out have never even learned to touch type.

...wha?

I don't even know who you're talking about, nor do I have any idea if these people touch type or not, but the notion that you shouldn't be bottoming out when you type most certainly predates Youtube itself. What I can tell you is that I most certainly do touch type and I can assure you that it makes a pretty significant difference to me.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 25 January 2018, 22:40:47: Quote from: Zobeid Zuma on Thu, 25 January 2018, 12:58:30

Well, I definitely like the feeling of the BOX Burnt Orange sample switch that I got. It has a distinct tactile bump right at the beginning of travel, and then it's smooth the rest of the way.

That sounds almost like a complicated Alps switch. I'll have to try those burnt oranges as well if they fix the issues.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: mudcakehoney on Sat, 27 January 2018, 14:44:40: I got a recent batch of BOX burnt oranges and took the plunge and soldered them to my board. They are a lovely switch to use and to me feel most like a zealio 67g with a higher bump and slightly shorter travel. They are VERY quiet and smooth and very little wobble which makes them a real pleasure to type on. So far I haven't felt any issues with stem twisting but if / when I do I will swap out the individual switch for a new one.

I think these switches particularly shine with SA profile (or SA seems to suit them more than other switches) because of the little wobble and short travel.

Incidentally what exactly should I be feeling out for re defects so I know if I have to de-solder?

(https://i.imgur.com/yz6XZvS.jpg)
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: rich1051414 on Sat, 27 January 2018, 14:52:18: Most people avoided them because kailh stated they were based on Brown switches, so people assumed the tactility would be weaksauce.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: _haru on Sat, 27 January 2018, 17:21:40: I got to try BOX Browns at the perth meetup. I wasn't expecting much since the force curves hadn't really been kind to them. But I was actually pretty impressed. I think I'll buy some Burnt Oranges for another build now :D
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 27 January 2018, 18:41:01: Why is it called burnt orange and not burnt sienna ?
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 27 January 2018, 18:45:07: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 27 January 2018, 18:41:01
Why is it called burnt orange and not burnt sienna ?

bronze used to be called thick gold, it's just a translation thing
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 27 January 2018, 18:59:53: I don't usually even question Chinese/English translations anymore. I just feel lucky as long as we don't end up with something like...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180128/fceb75155be17ac4e4651d35a0e664ba.jpg)
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Sat, 27 January 2018, 19:57:30: Thinking now of using the Kailh Pro Heavy switches instead of BOX switches. I got some of the Sage (clicky) and Burgundy (tactile) for a keypad project not long ago, and they are pretty good. And there doesn't seem to be any supply problem with them. (Probably because I don't see anybody else using them!)
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: WheresTheSNES on Sun, 10 June 2018, 06:15:38: mudcakehoney, that case looks awesome, what is it?
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 10 June 2018, 06:23:51: Quote from: Techno Trousers on Sat, 27 January 2018, 18:59:53
I don't usually even question Chinese/English translations anymore. I just feel lucky as long as we don't end up with something like...
Show Image
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180128/fceb75155be17ac4e4651d35a0e664ba.jpg)

Just a lingua xplination for the curious.

干 (Gan) adjective, means dry, it also means To-Do, which becomes slang(colloquial) for (f-word),

爆（Bao) means explode, but also to (sautee/pan-fry)

鸭子（yazi) means duck.

Ultimately that's a perfectly reasonable translation.

The Software thinks you're translating a sentence, 干 (gan) was taken as a verb
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: mudcakehoney on Sun, 10 June 2018, 07:07:23: Quote from: WheresTheSNES on Sun, 10 June 2018, 06:15:38
mudcakehoney, that case looks awesome, what is it?
It’s a coffee brown CA66
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: WheresTheSNES on Sun, 10 June 2018, 07:49:24: I thought it might be. Looks great. Would love to get my hands on a navy blue one.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: nimblejacks on Sun, 10 June 2018, 10:01:04: Quote from: _haru on Sat, 27 January 2018, 17:21:40
I got to try BOX Browns at the perth meetup. I wasn't expecting much since the force curves hadn't really been kind to them. But I was actually pretty impressed. I think I'll buy some Burnt Oranges for another build now :D

Ditto! I was quite impressed with my BOX Browns and find myself wanting a bit more tactility, so Burnt Oranges might also be my next switch.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: rich1051414 on Sun, 10 June 2018, 18:24:42: I really like royal purples. If you want more tactility, that should be what you try next.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: portbaron on Sun, 10 June 2018, 21:13:39: I have a board with burnt oranges I got about 3 months ago and I don't notice anything. Maybe I'm a too much of a casual, but I have no problem with them.
Title: Re: Kailh BOX Burnt Orange
Post by: neemajon on Mon, 11 June 2018, 12:15:40: Heard nothing but good thing about burnt oranges