geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Kavik on Sat, 03 February 2018, 23:03:02
-
About a year and a half ago, I got a KBP V80 with Matias click switches. It took me a while to warm up to the switches, and they seem to have had a break-in period (they started out way too stiff but became usable after about 2 weeks), after which they felt inconsistent across the board. But they sounded nice and felt decent overall when typing though.
Within four months, the left arrow key stopped working. After messing with it for a while, I got it to register, but it was extremely chattery: three or four registers per key press. Keep in mind I'd only used this keyboard about 30% of the time at work during this four month period, so, in effect, it only had 5 weeks of real use. Since it was under warranty and I didn't have any spare Matias switches, I sent it back for repair.
After getting it back, I really didn't use it much. I used it for gaming for a couple weeks after getting DSA Lightcycle, but it mostly just sat in the corner of my room collecting dust.
Earlier this week, I got a TEX TKL case for it since that was my original plan for this board. I used it for a few days, and then I got the idea to switch out the fixed cable that came with the TEX case with the daughterboard from the KBP plastic case. It worked, but I had to disassemble it a second time it to secure the daughterboard better.
Well, now the danged comma key doesn't register. I tried switching back to the fixed cable with no success, and I see no damage to the PCB or switch pins, so I guess the switch just crapped out.
TL;DR Minimally used keyboard has two switches crap out in less than a year and a half. Do Matias switches just suck reliability-wise?
P.S. I'm going to see if disassembling the switch has any effect.
-
Apparently, disassembling and reassembling the switch fixed it... I have no idea what was wrong with it though.
At least switch disassembly is possible on these without desoldering.
-
Yeah, if it's a year and a half ago they suck when it comes to consistency; apparently they retooled recently, which has been said to help a lot, but I've never tried a retooled Matias switch keyboard so I can't say.
Disassembly can help sometimes, but other times you are just out of luck.
-
I owned a Quiet Pro when it first came out (so maybe 3-4 years now?) And haven't had any issues.
I maybe different batches are a little different, I had the original white stem ones (now they are grey stem I believe).
But hopefully the retool will help.
-
Had to send a V80 with Matias quiet clicks for repair after one of the switches started chattering extremely badly, it would go on forever repeating the key if it started, and then shortly afterwards the switch stopped working altogether. I'm getting the board back soon, so I can only hope nothing else comes up with it.
I do like the switches and the board very much, so It'd be a bummer if there was more trouble with it.
-
Because it can be so difficult to remove keycaps from Matias switches, I think the process of wrenching them off can cause issues. I've ruined a couple that way. Overall I think Matias switches are very sensitive. There isn't a Matias keyboard I own that hasn't had a defective switch. I have a bag of spares and just replace them when they go bad.
-
Hmm, sounds like a bit of a mixed bag from what I'm hearing. I've also read that vintage ALPs boards have some reliability problems, so maybe it's just something inherent with the design.
Mine does have the white sliders. I didn't know that the newer switches have gray ones. I got this board in October 2016 if that's any indication of which batch of switches it has.
I agree that the stock keycaps were very difficult to remove, to the point that I thought I was going to break the switches. However, I had to file down these DSA keycaps' stems so much for them to fit that they are actually fairly easy to remove.
-
It really seems like kbparadises qc is really bad I got a v80 with matias clicks that double ghosted and had super bad stabs
-
I personally don't like the way the quiet clicks feel. They also seem to have a significant failure rate? Maybe its just because i repair a lot of them. But they're the best of the new ALPS compatible switches! ;)
-
I personally don't like the way the quiet clicks feel. They also seem to have a significant failure rate? Maybe its just because i repair a lot of them. But they're the best of the new ALPS compatible switches! ;)
they went overboard with the dampening. its not like the original dampened Alps where the dampening doesn't extend past the slider. So the Matias are mushier and the travel is noticebly shorter. but the Matias have a great tactile leaf and have less of the "roughness" of SKBM Alps.
-
I personally don't like the way the quiet clicks feel. They also seem to have a significant failure rate? Maybe its just because i repair a lot of them. But they're the best of the new ALPS compatible switches! ;)
they went overboard with the dampening. its not like the original dampened Alps where the dampening doesn't extend past the slider. So the Matias are mushier and the travel is noticebly shorter. but the Matias have a great tactile leaf and have less of the "roughness" of SKBM Alps.
They're decent if you remove the dampeners.
-
For whatever it's worth, I got one of the new-and-retooled Matias Mini clicky keyboards, and it's been pretty solid and reliable. And I did remove the keycaps (with difficulty, the first time) and put them back on, twice, without causing any malfunction.
-
For whatever it's worth, I got one of the new-and-retooled Matias Mini clicky keyboards, and it's been pretty solid and reliable. And I did remove the keycaps (with difficulty, the first time) and put them back on, twice, without causing any malfunction.
Yeah matias like to hold on really tight tighter than alps idk why but they do
-
Had to send a V80 with Matias quiet clicks for repair after one of the switches started chattering extremely badly, it would go on forever repeating the key if it started, and then shortly afterwards the switch stopped working altogether. I'm getting the board back soon, so I can only hope nothing else comes up with it.
I do like the switches and the board very much, so It'd be a bummer if there was more trouble with it.
So the board arrived yesterday. The original offending switch works like charm, but now two other switches randomly give me doubles. The board is usable, but it's somewhat annoying, because the chattering occurs on often used keys (D and L). I will open up the switches and put them back together and see if that helps.
edit: Ok, I opened the switches up and the problems seem to be gone. I can still make the switch on key D to chatter a bit if I try really hard to hover around the actuation point, but in normal typing I cannot make it happen. L is completely fine with no signs of chatter.
There was lube on the switches which I cleaned with a piece of soft cloth. Don't know if that was actually what helped or not, but I'm happy that the switches and they keyboard is in full health again :)
-
I built a board of Matias quiet click switches, I also bought a batch of quiet click, non-quiet click and linear. The board was inconsistent. VERY inconsistent. The angle of pressing made a huge difference to the feel as well, which added to the inconsistency.
I compared the 3 switch types in a small switch tester too. the non-click and click varieties were impossible to tell apart with any - wait for it - consistency. sometimes the quiet click would 'click', the non-quiet click would often not click (more oftne than not in fact).
and the linear actually has a small bump. wtf
Despite all this inconsistency (read: disappointment), there was something very compelling about the tactility of these switches, so I bought a batch of cream ALPS. They were very nice and very consistent.
So my conclusion after all this was that overall, Matias switches feel more satisfying than other tactile MX variants, but in comparison to the ALPS they were intended to replace, they don't feel anywhere near as good or consistent.
PS: I have not tried any of the new batch of Matias switches.
PPS: I didn't have any chatter issues, or other electronic issues.
PPPS: Appealing keycaps are still a ***** to find.
-
I built a board of Matias quiet click switches, I also bought a batch of quiet click, non-quiet click and linear. The board was inconsistent. VERY inconsistent. The angle of pressing made a huge difference to the feel as well, which added to the inconsistency.
I compared the 3 switch types in a small switch tester too. the non-click and click varieties were impossible to tell apart with any - wait for it - consistency. sometimes the quiet click would 'click', the non-quiet click would often not click (more oftne than not in fact).
and the linear actually has a small bump. wtf
Despite all this inconsistency (read: disappointment), there was something very compelling about the tactility of these switches, so I bought a batch of cream ALPS. They were very nice and very consistent.
So my conclusion after all this was that overall, Matias switches feel more satisfying than other tactile MX variants, but in comparison to the ALPS they were intended to replace, they don't feel anywhere near as good or consistent.
PS: I have not tried any of the new batch of Matias switches.
PPS: I didn't have any chatter issues, or other electronic issues.
PPPS: Appealing keycaps are still a ***** to find.
I want to comment that my board of matias quiet was also very inconsistent, some of them were even borderline clicky, compounded by the issue with the second tactile bump feeling strange. I ended up swapping them, but I chalked my experience up to being spoiled, as I came from a keyboard with orange alps.
However, I would take a board of matias quiet over a keyboard with ANY cherry mx tactile switches any day. No contest.
-
I built a board of Matias quiet click switches, I also bought a batch of quiet click, non-quiet click and linear. The board was inconsistent. VERY inconsistent. The angle of pressing made a huge difference to the feel as well, which added to the inconsistency.
I compared the 3 switch types in a small switch tester too. the non-click and click varieties were impossible to tell apart with any - wait for it - consistency. sometimes the quiet click would 'click', the non-quiet click would often not click (more oftne than not in fact).
and the linear actually has a small bump. wtf
Despite all this inconsistency (read: disappointment), there was something very compelling about the tactility of these switches, so I bought a batch of cream ALPS. They were very nice and very consistent.
So my conclusion after all this was that overall, Matias switches feel more satisfying than other tactile MX variants, but in comparison to the ALPS they were intended to replace, they don't feel anywhere near as good or consistent.
PS: I have not tried any of the new batch of Matias switches.
PPS: I didn't have any chatter issues, or other electronic issues.
PPPS: Appealing keycaps are still a ***** to find.
I want to comment that my board of matias quiet was also very inconsistent, some of them were even borderline clicky, compounded by the issue with the second tactile bump feeling strange. I ended up swapping them, but I chalked my experience up to being spoiled, as I came from a keyboard with orange alps.
However, I would take a board of matias quiet over a keyboard with ANY cherry mx tactile switches any day. No contest.
Yeah, comparing Matias switches to Orange Alps is just isn't a fair comparison. Using Orange Alps as a baseline comparison for almost anything is going to lead to disappointment IMO. And I agree with you that Matias switches are preferable to anything Cherry puts out.
-
and the linear actually has a small bump. wtf
This is normal with linear Alps. Even complicated linear Alps have a little tactile bump caused when the slider clears the switchplate. It is a little bit more noticeable on Matias though.
-
Have used tactile keyboard for over a year with no issues
-
Never had any issues with my Mini Tactile Pro, and it's a pretty great little keyboard.
-
Never had any issues with my Mini Tactile Pro, and it's a pretty great little keyboard.
Same here. I've had mine for about a year and it gives one of the most satisfying tactile typing experiences this side of Buckling Springs. I'd like to get a full size board with these switches, but I'm not sure about the way the Matias full size boards look. I'd love to find one that is built more solid (like a Leopold) and more understated in looks. But so far the switches are going great on my mini.
-
Yea Matias switches are crap. Stick with skcm oranges, or NEXT’s skcm creams if you can still find them.
-
Yea Matias switches are crap. Stick with skcm oranges, or NEXT’s skcm creams if you can still find them.
Are the NEXT SKCM creams any different than the ones that came on the AEK II?
-
Are the NEXT SKCM creams any different than the ones that came on the AEK II?
Yes. NeXT keyboards had what seems to be SKCMAF, plain old tactile. AEK (Alps version) used SKCMBB, "cream damped", which are, well, damped switches.
-
I also returned a V80 with Quiet Clicks for chatter that developed within days. Replaced it with a Matias Mini Quiet Pro, which has been solid for a year with no chatter.
I'm forgetting now, but back when I had to return the board, I think I recall reading a thread where someone was claiming the chatter was caused by excessive lubrication. I never inspected the chattering switches. But that was also around the time of the re-tool. I like the Quiet Pro a lot, but I swear it's a tad scratchier than the V80.
-
I also returned a V80 with Quiet Clicks for chatter that developed within days. Replaced it with a Matias Mini Quiet Pro, which has been solid for a year with no chatter.
I'm forgetting now, but back when I had to return the board, I think I recall reading a thread where someone was claiming the chatter was caused by excessive lubrication. I never inspected the chattering switches. But that was also around the time of the re-tool. I like the Quiet Pro a lot, but I swear it's a tad scratchier than the V80.
The clicks were lubbed? Excessively even? Lube has the problematic side effect of silencing click leafs, excessively lubed click leafs wouldn't even be clicky. That is, unless the lube was only used on the switch plate side, which I find silly. The click leaf side would most benefit from the lube in the first place(if not for the silencing side effect).
However, you can lube them, but you have to use really thin dry lube, and only lube the sliders.
With that said, the lube application was inconsistent on my quiet mini leading to some of the keys feeling scratchy and/or clicky. However, what bothered me most was the second tactile bump. Either way, the keyboard felt great and I would have been thrilled with it had I been a bit more ignorant :) I still plan on putting that bag of matias switches to use, as soon as the opportunity arises. My matias quiet mini now has pine white alps. If anyone is curious, the PCB quality is outstanding, and I had no fear at all that I would lift a pad desoldering.
-
I'm one of the folks who's experienced the overlubrication problem with Matias QC switches.
The loud-click switches are not lubricated.
The quiet-click and linear switches are lubricated. The lubricant is, to the best of my knowledge, hand-applied. After we experienced a...very high defect rate with overlubricated quiet-click switches in the first couple batches of Model 01 production, Matias' switch vendor changed from a wet lubricant to a lubricant which goes on thinner and dries in place. This appears to have dramatically reduced the rate at which we run into problems with chattery quiet click switches, though it does slightly change the sound and feel of the switches.
-
I,'ve bought about 5 v60 boards and every one had issues with key chatter. I don,t think it is from bad switches. I think it's a firmware issue. I've managed to fix most of the offenders by replacing switches, sometimes multiple times. Also screwing with the tactile leaves. I've had this issue both with boards with Gateron switches as well as MX.
-
I own two Matias boards. The first one was from the third iteration, so it had white Fukka switches in it. One switch needed to be replaced, but that's it. The other board is a Matias Mini and it ROCKS. I always recommend this board to people looking for a high-quality board with crisp and precise switches. I must also mention that Matias’s customer service is spot on. If something's faulty, they replace--no questions asked. For ALPS in the modern day, you can't go wrong with Matias click switches. I've never been a big fan of dampened switches, so I can't speak to the quiet, linears.
-
Matias switches are perfectly good switches. I have used them extensively. They are quite reliable never had a failure and reasonably good feeling/sounding. The worst part of their keyboards is that the case is made of a plastic that gets dirty extremely easily.
Obviously mint-condition blue/complicated ALPS will feel and sound better but they are a perfectly reasonable approximation of later alps. Overall they are a good switch with a good feel and good sound.
-
Matias switches have a lot of issues. They sound hollow, and have issues with the stem catching on the housing.
If you want a modern Alps alternative I suggest checking out my Hua-Jie group buy.
-
I'm dealing with chatter in my Tactile Pro 3. It started shortly after purchase (maybe 3 years ago) and has been on-going since. I stopped using it for a while because it was so frustrating to type on; meanwhile, my warranty expired. I just recently got around to troubleshooting with instructions from Matias, to no avail. Now, I'm fighting with them for a replacement since it's apparent that the kb is defective and can't be fixed using official Matias troubleshooting steps. I've done everything but dismantle the switches. Matias offered me a 30% discount on a future purchase since they won't replace the kb due to warranty lapse.
-
I'm dealing with chatter in my Tactile Pro 3. It started shortly after purchase (maybe 3 years ago) and has been on-going since. I stopped using it for a while because it was so frustrating to type on; meanwhile, my warranty expired. I just recently got around to troubleshooting with instructions from Matias, to no avail. Now, I'm fighting with them for a replacement since it's apparent that the kb is defective and can't be fixed using official Matias troubleshooting steps. I've done everything but dismantle the switches. Matias offered me a 30% discount on a future purchase since they won't replace the kb due to warranty lapse.
In my experience, disassembling the switch and putting it back together fixes it half the time. They're a little difficult to open, but you can do it without desoldering.
If that doesn't fix it, soldering in a new switch is the only option that I'm aware of.
-
The theory is that because the tabs/'contacts can move around in the housing, they can move while being soldered into place. Matias boards are more carefully soldered, but if a company isn't really careful, you get a mixed bag, which is what you see in the KBP boards. I can't say it's true or not, but my own experience backs this theory as just handling a new switch and moving the tabs around can change things quite a bit. This also explains why pulling them apart and putting them back together often fixes problems.
While I liked the feel when it worked, my own V80 with Quiet Clicks was getting some dampened whites to fix the problem, unfortunately other projects have gotten in the way.
-
Since some of the switches in my Tactile Pro might have gone bad I'm thinking of just replacing them all with Quiet-Click switches. Does anyone here know if they're compatible? I would assume yes since it's basically the same switch with added dampeners. Or am I incorrect?
-
Yes they are crap, just like all Alps SKCM based switches.
-
Since some of the switches in my Tactile Pro might have gone bad I'm thinking of just replacing them all with Quiet-Click switches. Does anyone here know if they're compatible? I would assume yes since it's basically the same switch with added dampeners. Or am I incorrect?
The housing and contacts are the same on them.
-
You may be onto something. I bought a lightly used Tactile Pro a couple of years ago and one of the keys had already stopped working. I swapped it out with one of the never-used keys, and it's been okay since—but in my experience, it's quite odd for a lightly used MK to have any problems. (That's the whole idea about MKs, right—durability, reliability?)
In fact, the only other MK I've owned that's failed is a NIB Cherry MX Board 3.0 (which, unfortunately, I bought online and couldn't return). But it really failed, generating random characters and so on. Judging from the nature of the failure, though, I'm sure it was the controller or matrix, etc., and not the switches. (I haven't had time to fuss with it.)
I have mixed feelings about dissing Matias; you have to admire the hell out of anyone who's even willing to wade into something as complex and specialized as MK manufacturing. But still, yeah, you have to do it right; reputation is so important in this game.
-
I have mixed feelings about dissing Matias; you have to admire the hell out of anyone who's even willing to wade into something as complex and specialized as MK manufacturing. But still, yeah, you have to do it right; reputation is so important in this game.
Not to mention a company that continues to support the Alps switch design.
-
I installed a set of Quiet Clicks in a Dell AT101W and have used it off and on for a few years with no issues except for the occasional doubled character on maybe 3-4 of the keys.
I am typing on it now and I must say that it is pleasant and truly quiet even though it is quite tactile.
-
I would say Matias would be good if there warranty & costumer support was also good. But so long cream damped and black Alps boards are easy to find i will say nah.
-
it's quite odd for a lightly used MK to have any problems. (That's the whole idea about MKs, right—durability, reliability?)
Honestly, I think this is waaaaaaaay over played.
I have some Montereys that are inconsistent as all get out (used and abused), my Matias were great day one, not so great after that. We've seen Cherry Blues that had click problems right out of the box...
When was the last time you saw a rubber dome with a bad key (that didn't have soda spilled on it)?
Sure, it happens and they feel like crap most of the time, but I'm willing to bet rubber domes have a FAR, FAR higher reliability rate for the first say 20, 30, maybe even 40 or 50 million clicks than a mechanical does, there is far less parts to go wrong. Now think about how long people keep keyboards... About as long as they keep the computer it came with. Odds are, even if you have a perfectly good mechanical you have bought more than one in 5 years, so even if it lasts longer, it's not an actual benefit to you.
I have mixed feelings about dissing Matias; you have to admire the hell out of anyone who's even willing to wade into something as complex and specialized as MK manufacturing. But still, yeah, you have to do it right; reputation is so important in this game.
Meh.
They have my money and while I admire the effort their product is something that has literally been around for decades and they still can't get the basics right. Keyboards are long past the point where they shouldn't be taken for granted, they are so abundant you can get them for free at recycling centers.
-
When was the last time you saw a rubber dome with a bad key (that didn't have soda spilled on it)?
There is a lot of wishful thinking involved amongst keyboard fanatics.