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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: excelsium on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:05:14

Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:05:14: Hi :)

Aspects of the keys on my Acer Aspire 5315 laptops keyboard..
very light, very short travel, low tension, nice click and a nice sound.. they don't feel "squidgy" at all which is great and they flow really well, out of the keyboards I own this is the one I type the fastest on... 90wpm
I've tried a ms keyboard, logitech perfectstroke keyboard, new apple keyboard and I only manage 75wpm on these.. they have more tension and travel.. and I don't like the shape of the keys on the apple keyboards, so I wonder.. is there a desktop keyboard available that closely matches the laptop keyboard I'm describing?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Nonmouse on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:15:22: Your laptop has scissors switches, which exist in a few desktop kbs, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm sure somebody around here will chime in, though.

Cherry ML (G84-boards) are short travel (3mm) and low actuating force (45cN). They've been used for some laptop keyboards for that reason. They can be found pretty cheap (<$20 shipped) on fleaBay- probably worth trying out.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Otterclock on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:19:29: Hiya.:wave:

One of the nicest scissor switch boards I've come across recently has been the Rosewill RK-7300 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201033). It's way nicer than the $15 suggests. It's even kinda pretty, and sticks to the desk like no board I've ever used. They use some crazy rubber for the pads. I dropped a pen that rolled underneath it slightly, and I just picked the thing up because sliding it took too much effort. It also has a nice convex curve to it. Very good value board if you like scissor switch.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:22:42: The Logitech UltraX is a decent scissor switch keyboard, but there are lots others too. Flat keyboards are currently on vogue, so all manufacturers make them.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 03 April 2010, 14:33:22: I have three scissor switch keyboards to hand: Logitech dinovo, IBM Ultranav, and a Typematrix 2030. They all feel good (by scissor switch standards) and have similar tension and travel. When prodding individual keys they feel very similar, but if you roll your fingers over a few keys quckly and repeatedly, the IBM feels a bit faster and easier than the other two.

I think my old dinovo uses what they now call the perfectstroke switches, which you've tried. So it might be worth trying an IBM keyboard for something that feels subjectively ilghter and faster. The difference is very small, though.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 03 April 2010, 15:38:22: I wonder if the M4-1's spiritual successor is any good.

(http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/thinkpad-usb-keyboard/lenovo_thinkpad_usb_ultranav_keyboard-top.jpg)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: nowsharing on Sat, 03 April 2010, 15:54:33: There's also the Kensington Slim Type (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5770) that I reviewed a while back.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Otterclock on Sat, 03 April 2010, 16:59:18: I got inspired to bust out the Rosewill. I really like this thing, if only because it's 15 bucks and so well done. Half an inch thick yet almost as heavy as my Scorpius. Aesthetically, it's a really nice balance of gloss and subtlety. I enjoy just looking at it.

Thing has bright orange anti-skid rubber (http://www.rosewill.com/products/ShowPicture.aspx?id=1129&imgId=3802) on the sides. That is some hardcore anti-skiddage and also hilariously pointless. Trying to slide this thing across the desk is like forcing a cat into a garbage can.

I hear good things about the Kensington (I mean in addition to your review). It's quite popular.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Sat, 03 April 2010, 18:38:44: thank yews :3.
out of those mentioned the logitech ultrax was the only one available and available at a sane price here in the UK, £20... I'll post back how I like it... I use sellotape, pencils, metal mouse pads and dvd cases to mod my keyboards so that they are as comfortable as tenkeyless.. the mousemat resting over the keypad etc.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 03 April 2010, 20:11:44: Quote from: ch_123;169302
I wonder if the M4-1's spiritual successor is any good.

Show Image
(http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/thinkpad-usb-keyboard/lenovo_thinkpad_usb_ultranav_keyboard-top.jpg)

I bet you wish your laptop matched that keyboard!
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 03 April 2010, 20:54:46: My Latitude has a decent keyboard. I have no clue how fast I can type on it, but all I know is that I can type fast enough.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Sat, 03 April 2010, 21:13:52: re: Nonmouse: Scored a Cherry ML G84-4100 on eBay :) ... someone said the switches are heavier than the cherry browns... so less travel.. but the same weight as the cherry blues?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Sat, 03 April 2010, 22:39:06: Quote from: ripster;169381
Looks like it. Though people keep complaining about off center hits.

Show Image
(http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/cherry_ml_diagram.gif)

I wouldn't be surprised if somebody puts out a decent quality scissor switch this year. They gotta be putting R&D money into SOMETHING.

Hehe, are you saying that the ones available in some laptops now are the kings of scissor switches and all the desktop ones available now are inferior in varying degrees?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 03 April 2010, 23:53:23: Consider the Cherry G84-4100. Short-travel Cherry ML switches, fairly durable, very compact, and you can get one "buy it now" on eBay for $25 shipped, or for cheaper if you're willing to bid.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Mon, 05 April 2010, 14:44:45: Has Cherry made a switch that's less than 3mm, i.e. 2mm? this article (http://www.cherry.de/english/service/ergonomics_requirements_keyboards.htm) seems to suggest they have.. in particular this clipping "

No additional strain on the body, eyes, eyesight, or the mind. The keyboard can be used with no tiring effects.

Due to the short key travel (MARLIN Wireless Laser MultiMedia Desktop, STINGRAY Wireless MultiMedia Desktop and BARRACUDA Wireless MultiMedia Desktop: approx. 2mm total travel. STREAM Corded MultiMedia Keyboard: approx. 4 mm total travel), less force is required to confirm the keys.

I am very interested in obtaining a desktop keyboard with decent switches and a 2mm travel, I have the mentioned cherry and logitech keyboards on order but they are in the 3mm travel range :|

Apparently most notebook keyboard use 2.2mm travel switches, and this is what gives me the typing speed boost.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 05 April 2010, 14:49:19: It probably uses scissor switches. Cherry has a funny habit of coming up with fancy names for basic rubber domes and scissor switch implementations.

A lot of people think that low travel switches are better because cheap low travel keyboards tend to be better than cheap full travel keys. In reality, full travel mechanical keys are better still. Also bare in mind that whilst a mechanical keyboard may have a travel of 4mm or so, the switch actuates about 2mm down, sometimes less depending on the design of switch. I wouldn't limit yourself based on your preconceptions.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Mon, 05 April 2010, 15:19:59: Quote from: ch_123;169794
It probably uses scissor switches. Cherry has a funny habit of coming up with fancy names for basic rubber domes and scissor switch implementations.

A lot of people think that low travel switches are better because cheap low travel keyboards tend to be better than cheap full travel keys. In reality, full travel mechanical keys are better still. Also bare in mind that whilst a mechanical keyboard may have a travel of 4mm or so, the switch actuates about 2mm down, sometimes less depending on the design of switch. I wouldn't limit yourself based on your preconceptions.

frankly I'm satisfied with my laptops cheap keyboard that lets me type at 90wpm, I just want that in a desktop keyboard:P and that means cheap scissor switches with 2mm travel. fair enough if it doesn't exist I suppose. I don't fancy spending a lot on a mechanical keyboard that requires additional training and effort to use (e.g. higher activation force and to stop bottoming out keys to obtain maximum speed).
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 05 April 2010, 15:22:36: "training" is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but if you are happy with what you're familiar with, that's a good thing.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 05 April 2010, 15:26:27: Quote from: excelsium;169800
e.g. higher activation force

I would disagree with you here. Cherry browns are your friends. That said, we have been getting the new Dell stock, scissor switch keyboards in, and they are pretty nice, FWIW. Kensington makes some nice scissor-based keyboards as well.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 05 April 2010, 16:00:07: FWIW, and now that i'm infamously a scissor afficianado, THIS (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/I_O_Devices/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=330-1824)dell board has the best scissors i've typed on so far. Came across it at work, it came with a new dell vostro (or whatever they're calling it these days). You can find them for $30 on ebay.
By "best scissors" I mean medium-to-short throw, crisp feel, reassuring snip-snip noise, smooth action and non-wobbling keys. The kind of scissor board that stands out from other scissor boards, I thought.

Only reason i didnt get one is cuz the spacebar is too long for me on the left side. (as some of you know, i use the alt keys as function keys in an elaborate autohotkey script and i need to reach them easily with my thumbs).

Anyone mention the logitech k300 (http://www.jr.com/logitech/pe/LGI_920000918/)? I like the compact layout but I havent liked the latest round of logitechs that i tried at staples. Might take a trip to j&r to try one out. [update: I tried the k300 at staples, it blew.]
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 05 April 2010, 16:17:56: Quote from: excelsium;169791

I am very interested in obtaining a desktop keyboard with decent switches and a 2mm travel,.

if you're looking for ultra-short throw, these kensingtons (http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Keyboard-Profile-Design-K64397US/dp/B0014J1P64/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1270502059&sr=8-1)(the ci73) have that and are quite crisp. I owned one for a while, it was actually too short a throw for me but you might like it.
As a bonus they're pretty as heck (ultra low profile). I believe there's a wireless version too.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Mon, 05 April 2010, 16:37:30: Quote from: excelsium;169791
Has Cherry made a switch that's less than 3mm, i.e. 2mm?

Don't focus on Cherry in the false assumptiom they generally made quality keyboards. They generally make terrible crap. 99% of their production are scratchy rubber domes, spongy membranes, clones of Logitech scissor switches, Apple chiclets and whatever else sick abomination is currently en vogue. So unless a board has MX switches, avoid Cherry like [strike]the plague[/strike] any Chinese $2-keyboard manufacturer.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Mon, 05 April 2010, 17:17:44: Thanks for the tips :3

I'd probably love the kensington ci73, but sadly there are no UK stockists for this.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 05 April 2010, 17:24:16: Quote from: excelsium;169859
Thanks for the tips :3

I'd probably love the kensington ci73, but sadly there are no UK stockists for this.

there are some on ebay.co.uk (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=kensington+ci73&_sacat=See-All-Categories). I think you'd like it too; it was definitely the closest to a laptop keyboard i've ever tried.
Looks like the ones shipping from australia are only 10 pounds shipping cost. (30 pounds from US).
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:32:07: just got back from best buy, they had this one which was very laptop-like. Ultra-short throws, and reminded me of the keyboards on the sony vaio laptops. Looks nice too.
HP Wireless Elite Keyboard (http://www.amazon.com/Hewlett-Packard-FQ480AA-Wireless-Elite-Keyboard/dp/B001IOHAVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1270585688&sr=8-1)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:36:15: Ouch. That looks painful; even for a scissor-switch keyboard.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:38:37: Quote from: itlnstln;170136
Ouch. That looks painful; even for a scissor-switch keyboard.

lol, yea too shallow throws for me, but he might like it. Its about as shallow as the ci73.
I already bang on the keys as it is, my fingers need some travellin' room.

Speaking of getting back from best buy, also visited j&r. They had the das keyboard 3, got to try it out. Sweet and looks like a million bucks, only $109. (J&R was also where I first got to try out the Matias tactile pro in person; one of the few B&M shops that carries mechanicals from time to time).

But here's a sign of the times - I spent more time on the Microsoft Wireless Laser Desktop 7000 (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wireless-Laser-Desktop-7000/dp/B0012OKAP8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1270586530&sr=8-1) that they had there. ;)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:39:11: One of my friends has those. He got it off eBay from the US, and learned about ANSI and ISO layouts the hard way...
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:47:09: Quote from: ripster;170147
Hey Welly, you're back to buying keyboards!

;) Thats what i get for spending 3 days on this forum.

So what do you guys think if I submit a rash of non-mechanical board reviews?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:48:10: Hey, we were doing it for i-Rocks for awhile. Why not?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Nonmouse on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:53:17: Quote from: wellington1869;170150
;) So what do you guys think if I submit a rash of non-mechanical board reviews?

Go for it.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:55:43: Quote from: itlnstln;170152
Hey, we were doing it for i-Rocks for awhile. Why not?

Cool. I'll try to limit the reviews to non-mechanicals that I think are a cut above the trash, but wonder if its worth a separate non-mech subforum?
Most people prolly come here looking for mechanicals, though non-mech talk has definitely increased on this board.
[on the other hand, the keyboard forum lists "dome, scissor, capacitive..." in the title]
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 07 April 2010, 10:59:51: Quote from: wellington1869;170150
So what do you guys think if I submit a rash of non-mechanical board reviews?

Go for it. [2]

Do you want to limit it to new ones or are used ones eligible as well?
In terms of new ones, try the Logitech Classic Keyboard 200. Looks a bit dorky, but felt pretty decent indeed when I tried one, and I think it's got "decal look" lettering. (I think a fancier relative is what ripster's son used to tear up within months before he got that Unicomp. The price has got to show somewhere, right?) Stay far, far away from anything backlit, the junk ratio seems to be near 100% there (unless it's a Deck, but that's not non-mechanical).
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:14:37: What do we know about ebay item 290421115633 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290421115633)?

Looks like scissor type to me.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:00:30: Quote from: kishy;170339
What do we know about ebay item 290421115633 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290421115633)?

It looks like your picture of an asshat.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:22:32: Quote from: kishy;170339
What do we know about ebay item 290421115633 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290421115633)?

Looks like scissor type to me.

microsoft has a new mini/portable one (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=120)(sorta like the one you linked above). I typed on it at bestbuy and thought it was definitely a cut above trash. Quite crisp and nice, if I had a need for a portable keyboard i'd seriously consider it. Usb receiver stows away inside.

As a bonus, it doesnt look like an asshat.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:28:56: Quote from: keyb_gr;170331
Go for it. [2]

Do you want to limit it to new ones or are used ones eligible as well?

why not, we do that for the mechanicals after all.

Quote

In terms of new ones, try the Logitech Classic Keyboard 200.

i'll check it out. The reviews i'm thinking of lining up: saitek eclipse I, kensington ci73, logitech s510, dell wireless keyb & mouse bundle (all boards i once owned in the past); and ms laser desktop 7000 (about to buy a used one).

Quote

somewhere, right?) Stay far, far away from anything backlit, the junk ratio seems to be near 100% there (unless it's a Deck, but that's not non-mechanical).

ya i like the backlight concept but have yet to see a non-irritating deployment of one.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:40:33: Welly never called me an asshat. I just took it upon myself to do that anyway.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Nonmouse on Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:53:03: I think I'm responsible (partially, at least) for kishy's avatar.

I refuse to apologize, though.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:02:17: Ultimately kishy did it to himself. It's always that way.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:05:58: I find the image humourous, which is why I put it there. I'd been looking for an avatar for a while.

Whoever said "asshat" just reminded me to find that image again, that's all.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:10:28: We could all use that for our avatars and keep the riff-raff away.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:16:17: one interesting combo, with less ass like design
(http://www.ergocentre.co.uk/images/keybsat1.jpg)
(http://www.ergocentre.co.uk/images/keybsat1n.jpg)

price about $129
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: test157 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:19:17: and one more, with exactly layout as this IBM model above:
(http://www.ergocentre.co.uk/images/KEYB001.jpg)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:21:34: I dislike this communist ***gotry. Where's MW when you actually need him to go on a Model M rant?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:23:25: Canadian Asshattishness, in this case. I can't believe I posted a suggestion rather than condemning the OP's desires.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 07 April 2010, 13:31:04: Quote from: ch_123;170416
I dislike this communist ***gotry. Where's MW when you actually need him to go on a Model M rant?

Win.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 07 April 2010, 17:10:04: Quote from: wellington1869;170374
[used boards, too?]
why not, we do that for the mechanicals after all.
In that case you may want to ask around for review samples of some of the better '90s rubber domes. Dell QuietKeys (and other similar NMBs), Keytronics and BTCs (those with metal plate), stuff like that. I bet there are a few floating around here that folks could afford to part with for a while.
(Otherwise one could still look around on the 'bay, most of them won't cost an arm and a leg I guess.)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 21:55:23: Quote from: keyb_gr;170462
In that case you may want to ask around for review samples of some of the better '90s rubber domes. Dell QuietKeys (and other similar NMBs), Keytronics and BTCs (those with metal plate), stuff like that. I bet there are a few floating around here that folks could afford to part with for a while.
(Otherwise one could still look around on the 'bay, most of them won't cost an arm and a leg I guess.)

good idea. Nice thing about non-mechs - usually cheap and not-easily-moddable. Thus saving both time and money ;)

So I was in the b&h superstore (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/NYSuperStore08.jsp)today. What a trip. Cant believe i've never visited this store before, all the years i've been in manhattan. Fantastic store, great experience. Hard to describe: A labyrinth jam packed with electronics (and tourists), felt like a street bazaar. Best of all, some really neat stuff (a whole section on "surveillance gear" for instance, *grin*). I need to go back there, there's one more floor I didnt get to check out.

They dont have the keyboards out of the boxes, but I did notice the cashiers were using cherry POS boards.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 07 April 2010, 22:35:35: Quote from: ripster;170522
I've bought much of my photo equipment from B&H. Great store.

I just discovered "the magic arm" there. I-must-have-one. Its brilliant. Here's a youtube-dude demonstrating it:

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]

pricey though! But magical alright. Great design, a single lever tightens the entire arm in one shot. Great for closeup shots of keyboards. Or lego figures.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhjAgSezt6I&feature=related[/youtube]]Here's a better demo (http://"[youtube))
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Thu, 08 April 2010, 10:29:17: Just to say the Cherry G84-4100 so far seems to be a total fail for me, the keys (cherry ml 3mm) have too much travel and require too much effort (same weight as cherry blues apparently), the right shift key seems awkward and there's no windows key.. *roll eyes*.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 08 April 2010, 11:10:43: Quote from: excelsium;170622
Just to say the Cherry G84-4100 so far seems to be a total fail for me, the keys (cherry ml 3mm) have too much travel and require too much effort (same weight as cherry blues apparently), the right shift key seems awkward and there's no windows key.. *roll eyes*.

good to know, i was wondering what ML's were like. I'll scratch those off my list ;)
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 08 April 2010, 11:35:07: I just bought an MS laser desktop 7000. Couldnt get myself to pay retail ($70-$100 for a scissor board?!), bought a used one for a more reasonable $30. Should have it in a week. It was impressive (for a scissor/dome board) in the store. Heavy, nice looks, decent feedback on the keys and medium-to-short throw. It'll be my first "curved" board (6 degree angle on the keys).
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 01:10:08: I'm currently using a "Keysonic ACK-540 RF Wireless Keyboard" (scissors) at my desk.. cheap by UK standards, and it's almost as nice as the one in my laptop.... low tension and low travel.
I can relax really well and very delicately pick at the keys, at 75wpm, that's what I look for in a keyboard, not a tough manly bash bash whack whack type experience:3.. I get tired really easily from that.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 09 April 2010, 07:42:49: I have used a niceish BenQ A800 (I think its successor is called the X800 for its 'X' shaped scissors) board.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:00:14: Been testing the Logitech Ultra X.. the keys are of the type I'm looking for and are extremely similar to what's on the mentioned keysonic board. The board and keys are on a sight angle, I suppose perfectly flat is best. Board itself is heavy enough to not move at all when used.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:13:11: I'll say this for dome/scissor makers, they've been improving steadily, innovating a lot, which is more than one can say for the mechanical switch makers. The domes/scissors of today are much better than the ones from 90s. Both in reliability and in feel. While continuing to keep costs low.

Not saying they're as good, just observing that there is steady innovation there of the type that I wish we would also see among mechanical switch makers, if they want to keep up with the times or broaden their markets. They dont have to dump classic designs but they could add new ones. Laptop mechanicals, quieter mechanicals, lower cost production techniques or new designs, etc.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:30:07: Just scored 87wpm with my first test on the logitech ultra x...definitely keeping this as my main board for some time to come :D. Yea.. I can't imagine why I would want to get a mechanical keyboard. it would have to match the very low travel and activation forces of good scissor boards. I wonder what the action force for these boards are, perhaps lower than the cherry browns (40)?
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:02:14: Quote from: ripster;171004
Stick some nickels on it. My bet is about 70g. That's been my experience. It feels lighter because of the low travel.

So one cannot look only at the activation force with regards to lightness? these keys feel much lighter and more pleasant than the (45) keys on my G84-8100
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:24:32: Quote from: excelsium;170999
I can't imagine why I would want to get a mechanical keyboard. it would have to match the very low travel and activation forces of good scissor boards. I wonder what the action force for these boards are, perhaps lower than the cherry browns (40)?

Just measured my UtraX: 80g. I was surprised myself. I used them several years (new one every year, they're short-lived) and I think they're among the least annoying keyboards one can get in an average electronics market. Can't compete with my beloved Cherry blues though.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:41:16: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;171016
Just measured my UtraX: 80g. I was surprised myself. I used them several years (new one every year, they're short-lived) and I think they're among the least annoying keyboards one can get in an average electronics market. Can't compete with my beloved Cherry blues though.

But do the cherry b's feel heavier to you? Even if the keys are "technically better" (longer lasting, more accurate etc) if it requires more effort from my physical body parts.. then I don't need it..

I could feel the extra physical strain of typing on Cherry ML's after just a few minutes.. they have the same weight feel as the cherry b's supposedly.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:45:32: Cherry blues are 50g, a lot lighter. I find typing on them perfectly effortless. 80g is extremely heavy.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: excelsium on Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:21:30: Quote from: Mental Hobbit;171022
Cherry blues are 50g, a lot lighter. I find typing on them perfectly effortless. 80g is extremely heavy.

Doesn't add up with my experience I guess we'll have to disagree :p.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:31:59: Quote from: excelsium;171012
So one cannot look only at the activation force with regards to lightness? these keys feel much lighter and more pleasant than the (45) keys on my G84-8100

i think this is correct. seems to me there are other factors that go into how light/heavy a key "feels", including length of key travel, softness/hardness of the bottom, etc.

I bottom out with authority, but I dont feel like I make any additional effort for that to happen, my fingers merely 'fall', i dont feel like i'm exerting any extra effort when i bottom. On the contrary, if I try not to bottom I feel like I have to put in a lot of muscular effort on my fingers (to keep them from bottoming).

but thats just the way I've always typed, I suspect people have different styles of typing.
Title: A desktop keyboard that's like my laptop's?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 10 April 2010, 00:31:44: Quote from: excelsium;171019
I could feel the extra physical strain of typing on Cherry ML's after just a few minutes.. they have the same weight feel as the cherry b's supposedly.

No. ML switches feel nothing like MX switches. You can't even use them as a good reference point for describing the difference.

Between different types of MX switches (blues, browns, blacks) you can make meaningful comparisons. They are fundamentally the same but each is tweaked to have its own character.

But ML switches are completely different. They are a compromise designed to give reasonably long travel from a low-profile switch. It's a fairly neat trick for people who want that, but they can't compete with the smoothness of MXes.