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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 11 April 2010, 22:51:08

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 11 April 2010, 22:51:08

Whatchall know about this ergonomic keyboard? I've heard it's mechanical; if so, what switches does it use? How much is one worth? Are they rare? Who is John Galt? And who cares?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 12 April 2010, 17:25:28

I hated mine. They failed when I breathed on them.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 17:34:54

They use low profile Alps or something don't they?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 17:48:56

Is this just the normal Apple Adjustable?

If so it uses the blue-slider version of the switches in that 386 laptop numpad I presented a while back, or certainly appears to.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:44:34

Manyak thought they used either Alps white or orange.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:45:25

They aren't "normal" Alps...the slider design is different. It's a bit weird. Search 386 numpad (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6834)...

Warning: one of my earlier posts. I was still nooby.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:00:45

So what do they feel like? Is it worth paying $50 for one?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:06:38

I don't own the keyboard, I'm wondering about buying it. It's $53 shipped on eBay, and the seller claims two in stock.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:12:37

I dunno if the switches feel the same as what I've got or not. The ones in the Apple Adjustable are blue sliders, but appear to be of the same design.

These white ones are similar to Cherry browns in feel...without being exact here. There is a tactile point but it is rather subtle.

They're a "full travel" type of switch, not really low profile.

The feel comparison is based on one switch vs one switch, not typing on them. The feel of a single switch isn't necessarily a good way to judge the feel of a keyboard.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:18:58

I really beg to differ. Low profile ALPS is somethin (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3860&d=1250627540)g differen (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3858&d=1250624669)t.

These, the ones already described in this thread, have the approximate travel of a normal white simplified. What I've identified as "low profile ALPS" has the travel of a scissor switch laptop rubber dome.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:28:05

Quote from: ripster;171695

Ayn Rand's philosophy of "Objectivism" sez not to give links to people who don't check the ALPS wiki first.

OK, OK..... Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww7.ocn.ne.jp%2F~hisao%2Fimage%2Fadjustable.htm&sl=auto&tl=en)

...but I'm telling you, the travel is approximately the same...

I just got the numpad out and I'm holding it next to a simplified white. It's the same travel, if we're not gonna go down to the half milimetre here...

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 19:40:34

The sliders are the same length, I just put them against each other. If this is low profile, so are normal simplified whites.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:17:50

If I decide I don't like it, will someone be willing to buy it for their collection or curiosity?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:21:24

You are aware that it's ADB, right?

Either you've got an ADB-equipped computer or one of the relatively rare USB converters for it.

I've wanted one for a while...what kinda cost would that be pre-shipping?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:23:43

Aaah... Didn't notice that. Might be worth it just for the novelty though.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:29:49

*sigh* back to the eBay hunt.


Is there any guide to understanding Cherry's nomenclature? I'm looking for something clicky, preferably MX blues.

What switches would the G80-8113LRCUS have?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:44:52

Quote from: ripster;171727

?

Just because it's low profile non-clicky ALPS doesn't mean you might not like it. Chimera liked his a lot.

Ayn Rand would have bought it.

Ayn Rand would have either called Apple communists, or embraced them as the pinnacle of capitalism.


The more worrying thing than the switches is that it needs a converter to go from ADB to PS/2/USB and I can't find any in a quick search.
EDIT: found a few, but they're kinda pricey.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:47:41

Griffin iMate

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 April 2010, 20:50:17

Someone's got an iMate in Classifieds right now, $30...jump on it.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 21:31:06

Ain't got the money. $50, I might swing. $50+$30? Nope.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 12 April 2010, 23:01:25

Pictures from the seller:

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2c62752556&view=att&th=127f5156b49098ef&attid=0.1.1&disp=inline&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2c62752556&view=att&th=127f5156b49098ef&attid=0.1.3&disp=inline&zw

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 13 April 2010, 04:18:32

Lawl, did you try to link us to an email in your inbox?

I think the general consensus is that these keyboards are pretty mediocre and not really worth the time.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 13 April 2010, 09:33:19

I think I did. :doh:

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 13 April 2010, 09:43:41

(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/103/6/2/apple_kb1_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

White Alps?

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/103/4/9/apple_kb2_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:46:49

Alright, those are definitely what's in my 386 laptop numpad, and low profile is definitely not the right way to refer to them because they have the full travel of a normal ALPS switch.

BTW these are not referred to as white ALPS, those are slightly different. Slider design is obviously different if you compare.

ALPS wiki needs repairs if this is what we've got them labeled as. Low profile is low profile is low profile. Low profile is not normal profile.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 13 April 2010, 10:57:32

Well, I'm not going to pick one up if I'll need a $30 adapter to use it, so feel free to have at. There are three available at decent prices on eBay, and one for $200.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:04:15

What choice do I have, this is ridiculous...it's a full travel switch. Unless I'm missing something here low profile would mean shorter travel.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Tue, 13 April 2010, 11:29:09

Sooner or later I'll figure out the exact distance away from a switch that's necessary to take a clear picture of one...

Seems to be somewhere in the 2-3ft range, but the details are too small by that point.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:26:18

Quote from: ricercar;146568

I compare the ALPS key feel here to squishy Cherry browns.

• The keystroke is silent, with an almost immedate tactile bump that's more pronounced than Cherry browns.
• Yet the ALPS switches seem to have a lighter force required than Cherry browns
• These ALPS switches feel sort of rubber-domey squishey, which is why I never thought of this keypad in terms of key switches.

I just tested that ALPS keypad against a Cherry blue Scorpius M10. The ALPS have a definite squishy stiffness to them, like a rubber dome feel. This makes them stiffer than Cherry blues, with a tactile bump, but totally silent.

My subjective stiffness scale: Brown > ALPS > Blues. Maybe I'll be motivated to try the nickel method on these. Maybe not.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 16 April 2010, 08:12:19

I think the main difference with "regular" Alps switches is that these here are not plate mounted. Probably necessary considering how close some are mounted to the edge of the case.

I think $50 is way too much, btw. Maybe for NIB.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 15:42:39

I really just wanna know how and why they're being called low profile, that's all. Who determine this for sure, when and on the basis of what?

Unless I somehow have magically different switches...and I'm convinced I don't...they have full normal travel.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 16 April 2010, 15:45:13

It was decreed by Sandy. I, for one, refuse to question the word of the master.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 16 April 2010, 15:51:51

Quote from: ch_123;172784

It was decreed by Sandy. I, for one, refuse to question the word of the master.

;) This is why i stopped editing the alps wiki many moons ago. Nothing against sandy (and i dont have his energy or his knowledge either), but i had issues with nomenclature which i made a half-hearted attempt to rectify and was brushed aside by the real alps folks and i said fine. I cant compete there. "In my own mind" i have different names for the alps features and switches ;)

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 16 April 2010, 15:55:08

Ripster has done a good job with the list of switches, but a lot of the nomenclature has stuck. To be honest, most of it makes sense.

The low-profile could well be a lost-in-translation thing referring to the physical profile of the switch as opposed to it's travel? I'm not sure.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 16:19:30

Quote from: ch_123;172787

The low-profile could well be a lost-in-translation thing referring to the physical profile of the switch as opposed to it's travel? I'm not sure.

This is what I'd assume. I'm going to desolder one of what I've got and try my best at a photoshoot next to a normal white-slider ALPS.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 16:27:14

I found the answer myself. Full travel but the keycap ends up being closer to the PCB because the switch itself is freakin tiny, I didn't realize they were also very shallow in height.

Edit: photos.

Showing the slider interfaces and relative sizing:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9174&stc=1&d=1271453937)

Angle view:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9175&stc=1&d=1271453937)

Taped together, but with no real pressure. Sliders are not pressed in at all on either switch. Both sliders can travel until they are more or less flush with the switch top before stopping, so they both have the same amount of travel as each other.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9176&stc=1&d=1271453937)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9177&stc=1&d=1271453937)

The answer, then, is that they are low profile because they allow the height of the keyboard itself to be lower. They are a full travel switch.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 16:59:55

Believe it.

I dunno about ACTUATION POINTS...I'm talking about actual slider travel.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9178&stc=1&d=1271455184)

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 16 April 2010, 17:10:58

How do you take these apart? I tried it before and failed.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 17:11:31

The slider on a normal white ALPS - bigfoot? - would need to sink into the switch an additional what, half a millimetre, in order for that number to be possible.

Lowpoly: 4 tiny clips around the perimeter of the switch. It'll need to be desoldered to lever them open, though.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 17:29:23

You're allowing the fact that the parts are smaller to make it seem that they move less.

They move the same distance, they're just smaller. Maybe bigfoot switches DO sink into the switch further, I dunno, but they sure don't want to when I try.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Fri, 16 April 2010, 17:58:32

I don't have a caliper (or micrometer, or straightedge, or even a decent ruler) so I'm not gonna go myth-busting. If indeed he went by the specs then we know there's room for error.

It just seemed too obvious to me that the travel was approximately the same (could be off by 0.1mm, but I doubt it's as much as 0.5mm).

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 17 April 2010, 19:56:34

That ruler seems to use the standard system, not Metric. Since when were centimeters divided up into 32nd's?

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: sandy55 on Sun, 18 April 2010, 09:29:00

Source of 3.5mm travel of SKSF switch is ALPS catalog '94 edition.
That of usual Bigfoot class ALPS is also listed  as 3.5mm in that catalog.

Checked my blue clicky ALPS. My vernier caliper indicated key travel as  3.5mm.  Actually the length of a stem from the upper case to the top oa stem is 4.0mm, but there still is 0.5mm left from a surface of an uppercase when a stem is pressed down completely.

Quote

Show Image

(http://www.google.com/patents?id=0M46AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA4&img=1&zoom=4&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3oVwbj7aKmQHnqhLQAA6Oh5K4nRw&ci=155%2C277%2C808%2C750&edge=0)

It's for a plate spring switch. No relation with M1242 switch so far.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 09:57:17

So wait, if you post something on-topic on a forum known for typically going off-topic, is that a type of trolling?

I knew I wasn't crazy.

I suspect the "low profile" thing comes from the fact it allows the keyboard itself to have a lower profile while maintaining full proper travel.

Title: Apple M1242
Post by: kishy on Wed, 28 April 2010, 10:08:50

They could make the car bounce but they didn't bother to make the scanner go back and forth?

Dipsticks.