Hello,
I used a membrane MITSUMI KFKEA4XT for a long time. Now that it's gone, I cannot find a replacement.
Would anyone recommend any modern keyboards with a similar feel? Price is not an issue. Thank you.
7 available
The photos are of the actual item that the winner will receive
What was so great about that board?
The squishy feel and the low thumping sound.
Lets file this under "additional evidence that it takes all kinds" ;-)
Nods and backs slowly out of the thread....
Basically, I'm asking if there any high-quality rubber dome keyboards out there.
Consider the topre line.
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce
They are certainly the most expensive rubber dome based keyboards out there. And they feel pretty nice for sure, I have owned two of them previously.
Why'd you sell yours?
Keytronic or IBM rubber boards are good, cheap, plentiful.
I found my PCB mounted cherry browns to be superior in terms of rebound force, resulting in a bounciness that assisted in typing faster. Cherry browns require less effort of my fingers (in terms of lifting my fingers)
i still want to try a keytronic. one of these days i'll part with $25 and get one of those lifetime series ones on ebay I guess. Just to know what it is.
I have a Designer P2 that I'll send you for shipping plus a buck fifty (bottle of coke zero), but honestly I don't think you'll like it, given your tastes (which aren't far off from mine I don't think). It's an unimpressive rubber dome that tries to emulate mechanical switch and kinda fails at delivering the qualities of either. It's friggin gargantuan while managing to still be light and flimsy. The keys have an unrefined friction that's almost like sticking. Just IMO.
hey otter, hold that for me. You're probably right that i wont like it, its more just curiosity.
i'll google the p2 once i get out of the library this afternoon and i'll pm you. Your description of it doesnt make it sound enticing, lol. Could it be its one of the suckier keytronics? The lifetime series is the one with most consistently good reviews. (or is the p2 the same as that?).
thanks man.
hey otter, hold that for me. You're probably right that i wont like it, its more just curiosity.
i'll google the p2 once i get out of the library this afternoon and i'll pm you. Your description of it doesnt make it sound enticing, lol. Could it be its one of the suckier keytronics? The lifetime series is the one with most consistently good reviews. (or is the p2 the same as that?).
thanks man.
It's actually the most expensive Lifetime, the "Designer" http://www.keytronic.com/home/products/specs/ltdesigner.htm
Strange thing, though. It's rated at 20 million keystrokes whereas their other ones, the cheaper, non-Lifetime models, are rated at 30 million. I guess those are expected to last longer than a lifetime. The E03600 P2 in particular, is less than half the MSRP and rated at 30 mil, and yet everywhere I look, it sells for more than the $60 MSRP Designer. The 30mil rating at least suggests different domes, I think. Or something. I have a feeling maybe I'm not getting the full Keytronic experience with this "Designer".
I briefly used a different model keytronic a while back that wasn't working right, and it wasn't the Designer. I recall it being better, more solid, heavier, but I didn't use it for more than a few minutes before returning it since some keys didn't work, and it was before I really got into trying different keyboards so I didn't approach it with the same awareness I would now and I can't remember which model it was.
All the models listed here.http://www.keytronic.com/Home/shop/shop.asp?h_ck=TM453Z
Imma gonna email them folks now and ask whats up.
Just DomeShow Image(http://susywchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/dsc00264-01.jpg)
Gotcha, and thanks for the deets. Sounds like they might have different domes then. The eo3600 was the one i was looking at on ebay. Maybe i'll just pick up one of those then. Thanks for the offer though.
The eo3600 isnt terribly expensive, even new ones are only about $25 shipped. The only reason i'm hesitating (despite the curiosity) is because in the end I actually dont think i'd like it, so its really just $25 for a pure experiment. I'll prolly pull the trigger one day when i'm bored though. ;)
If you do, do a review, or at least make a video typing on it
I'm very confused. Variance between different types of mechanical switch is something I can believe, but when Keytronic says that their rubber domes last twice as long as Cherry's... what exactly is the difference that causes this magical longevity? Gold plating? Holy water?
Keytronic just responded saying that both boards use the same domes, and that the Designer is rated at 30mil. Pretty sure the site says 20mil but whatevs.
out of curiosity, what are topres rated at? They're basically domes right?
also according to most reviewers on amazon and newegg, not all keytronics boards are the same (in feel or noise level or etc). Maybe you got someone at the helpdesk who just attached a form response?
Oh Welly, don't you remember the Vestal virigns? The Capacitive contacts? The springs?
And 30 million is what they say.
Key Life Expectancy
30 million keystrokes or more
※The durability of the membrane system is about 10 million strokes.
It even shows some dude's hand holding a digital counter and it reads 20,000,000!!! If that isn't proof I don't know what is.
which brings up another point about topre -- either its great for a membrane (10 million!) -- or lousy for $300 ;)
Well to their credit, the topre boards aren't membrane. The membrane part refers to the two thin sheets of plastic with super thin circuitry embedded, two sheets, when one presses into the other it actuates. In the topre, I think that's where the whole capacitive thing comes into play.
Ummmmmmmmmmmm....
Two membranes, it actuates when one is pressed into the other... this is different how?
Keytronic says that their rubber domes last twice as long as Cherry's... what exactly is the difference that causes this magical longevity? Gold plating? Holy water?
this is different how?
Topres don't have either of those features. A solid circuit board carries the tracks, and the switching is done by metal springs forming a capacitive circuit when compressed.
Btw, these topre specs posted on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsaAgY_22I)says "10 million before the membrane dies". Which is interesting, topre sounds like they're fudging a bit too (if the membrane dies at 10 million, the switches continuing on for another 20 million doesnt do anyone much good).
which brings up another point about topre -- either its great for a membrane (10 million!) -- or lousy for $300 ;)
On the other hand, i guess that means membranes can be manufactured today that last at least 10 million. (And as I like to remind people, thats like half a century of use (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5023)for most mortals, even if you're a novelist. So these high quality membranes should last thru the entirety of whole careers).
Cant say anything about cheaper membranes, but the technology clearly exists.
Ever have a remote control that you have to JAB, JAB, JAB to get to register?
In those specs the "membrane" they are referring to is the sheet of rubber domes.
Well to their credit, the topre boards aren't membrane. The membrane part refers to the two thin sheets of plastic with super thin circuitry embedded that the dome collapses onto, when one presses into the other it actuates (pretty sure, at least). .
I'm also reluctant to accept a Youtube video as an official specification.
I agree that we cant compare domes directly across boards, and that other parts of the switch construction play into the longevity. But then we also dont have enough info about keytronics switch construction to say they dont last 10, 20, or 30 million. (I mean, that migrant worker is fairly certain it lasts 20 million, but who is he?) So I guess if I wind up buying one, after I review it I'll crack it open, and we can speculate some more.
Either way, I'm not convinced that the tactile element in a Topre switch is going to magically explode 1/3 of the way through the useful life of the keyboard.
Speaking of cheaping-down materials, why do the premium boards like Filco et al use plastic housings?
And why are there so many songs about rainbows?
Speaking of cheaping-down materials, why do the premium boards like Filco et al use plastic housings?
Also are there any new boards that use cherry white/clears other than the Deck (which uses them I think)? I'm still in my learning process concerning what I like, and oddly I think I like the firmness of the cherry blacks, but they're just a bit too firm. And why are there so many songs about rainbows?
I think one thing thats interesting here is the possibility that topres actually functionally only last 10 mill. Again I hasten to add that in my view 10 mill is plenty. But if thats the case, thats info that is probably worth inserting into the topre wiki, for reference, where we have saved all other aspects of specs for these keyboards.
When was the last time you saw a metal keyboard that wasn't a gimmicky special edition?
Not really, Cherry is discontinuing their manufacture afaik... nowhere else seems to be able to get them.
The MX8100 MAY come with Cherry Clears. Not sure the secret decoder ring here.
Exactly. Is a metal housing only worthwhile as a gimmick? Maybe. I can see how good quality plastic would even be preferable, really. Is the metal housing of old IBMs a cherished quality, or would model M appreciators not care one way or the other if it were plastic.
At work, there are some rubber domes which are still being used even after more than eight years. My colleague is still using the first Microsoft Natural keyboard. He has been using the same keyboard before I started on my present job (8 years).
Can you name another piece of office equipment that is just as functional 25 years later? :)
But ultimately the debate about 'how long is enough' will never end cuz its also just a subjective question of value for the money, which each of us answers for ourselves. From that same thread:
We've had these dell d750's at work for 2 or 3 years now and they're perfectly fine.
The only flaw is the spacebar. It is reluctant to move if you hit it at the edge. And it is much louder than the other keys. Overall I'd say the sound is more intrusive than a blue Cherry or buckling spring board, purely because of the space bar. The tragic thing is it would be more likely to be accepted in a shared environment, because although it is loud it would be considered "normal."
I'll have to look up that guide for fixing the spacebar, maybe it can be made quieter as well as smoother.
My only complaint, like many others, is that the Space Bar was very loud. It had a completely different sound and feel than all the other keys. I solved this problem quite easily; I'm surprised a similar solution isn't included in the design. I removed the Space Bar key. There are two straight wire springs under the key, each having a 90-degree bend at the end. The bent ends fit under tabs on the keyboard base. The noise results from the springs contacting the tabs as the key is depressed. I cut two slivers of packing foam and inserted one under each tab before re-installing the key. Not only does it sound better - it also feels better.
That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.
That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.
I get shiny keys but as far as I can tell my Cherry Blue keyboards have gotten a tad smoother comparing a Filco NIB "spare" and a well used one.
Randomly ran across this pic.Show Image(http://geekfeat.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/cost-graph.jpg)
From a Das review. (http://geekfeat.com/2010/03/das-keyboard-model-s-professional-review/)
I noticed this on my last Filco. Fresh out of the box, the switches were a little frictiony, but after about a week or two of use, they were smooth as butter. I didn't have that "issue" with either of my Cherry 'boards. I wonder what makes the Filco different. Could it be that some of the spray-on keycap coating gets into the switch, and it wears away over time?*
*This is going off the information provided by Brian explaining that the keycaps are coated after they are mounted on the switches.
That's not an ergonomic keyboard. Once they found out that true ergonomic keyboards don't sell, this cowardly design came out, aimed at lazy people who like "ergonomic" splashed out over the box, but don't like to use an ergonomic keyboard because doing that is actually too much trouble. Marketing ergonomics. Most stuff is like that today. But it is designed not to alienate people and thus paradoxically not to be ergonomic.To be fair, the MS Natural 4000 is the most ergonomic keyboard currently mass-produced by a major manufacturer. The rest of Logitech/Microsoft's "ergonomic" keyboards are nothing more than wave types. Why they even make those dumbed down hybrids is beyond me. They're like a 5% deviation from the standard design... Just enough to make typing on them require adjustments from a standard keyboard, but not enough of an adjustment to have any impact whatsoever ergonomically speaking. It's like change for change's sake.
Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000...
I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't been spoiled by mechanical switches and wants to stick with domes.
Show Image(http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/images/products/nek4k/mk_productdetails_nek4k.jpg)
Aaaand now that you posted that, I realize we're talking about two very different things. I thought you were talking about the Ergonomic Desktop 7000.... Which has a 4k type design in it. Damn you Microsoft...
GG MS on using the same number allowing confusion.
From now on to alleviate confusion, every keyboard model will get a unique GH##### serial independent from the manufacturer's identifier. ;)
That keyboard is the only one that has the official "Super Duper Windows" key.
To be fair, the MS Natural 4000 is the most ergonomic keyboard currently mass-produced by a major manufacturer.
what did that do, anyway? just a regular win key?
The Hero Start Button functions as a Start Button just like the other implementations in this specification. It is not required and is provided as an option for keyboard manufactures that want to take advantage of its more dramatic look—its larger size, clear dome, and full-color printing and placement on the keyboard. The Hero Start Button uses a lens insert and is placed directly below the space bar. If implemented, the Hero Start Button must meet the following requirements:
Which counts for absolutely nothing really because it isn't really anything, and who cares how big or small the company who made it is. If you're someone who actually needs one an ergonomic keyboard, you're better off coughing up the dough and getting a real one from a small name manufacturer.
The word "Ergonomics" comes from two Greek words "ergon", meaning work, and "nomos" meaning "laws". Today, however, the word is used to describe the science of "designing the job to fit the worker, not forcing the worker to fit the job."
Big corps don't sell the obscure, high end ergonomic keyboards, no. But in the case of the MS Natural line, I find it is indeed more ergonomic than a standard keyboard. It's not the most ergonomic thing in the world, but the fact is that I, and others I know, found it more comfortable than a standard keyboard. And no, it wasn't placebo in my case. I found straight keyboards uncomfortable to use for long periods of time pretty much from the point my growth spurt ended as a kid. The Natural series allowed me to type longer with less discomfort right off the bat, and many years down the line that remained the case.
Here's my elitist opinion: big brands don't sell ergonomic keyboards, only cynical marketing ploys using that term, if any. Keyboards are bad, you have to face it. Real ergonomic input devices are economically not viable because they are too alien and have a learning curve. They learned that in the nineties. Bigcorp won't touch it. For example, look at this special DataHand prototype for HP. That would have been nice, the HP DataHand. Except that no deal was made.
Bigcorp only sells wavy keyboards to the sheeple which you champion. Bigcorp gets your money, you don't get an ergonomic solution, but perhaps you feel better with your placebo.
no one is more similar than itself
That's a short sighted, and elitist attitude. Back in the real world, things like price, availability, and name recognition matter. Not everybody interested in an ergonomic board is in dire need of one due to RSI or some such. Some are just curious, or perhaps want to avoid the risk of RSI in the first place. Those people aren't likely to shell out hundreds of dollars for some product they've never seen in person from some company they've never heard of. Considering they've never used any ergonomic board before, you can hardly blame them for not taking that risk.
Gateway devices have their purpose, and IMO are a vital thing to any market. Without them, the interest in the pricier, more obscure products would dwindle and potentially even die.
no one is more similar than itself
"I yam what I yam!" (http://www.vindcreatieven.nl/resources/popeye1.gif) - Descartes.
Be Yourself.
Better watch that Magic Arm Welly!