Someone around here had a Maltron and said that they weren't particularly impressed by it's quality...
Maltron is available with a trackball between the left and right hands.Ah, yes... I forgot about the fact that Maltron has a trackball option. I'm not too sure that'd be any more convenient than a trackball to the right of the keyboard though. When I compare hand movement to the middle of the keyboard vs to just right of the keyboard, it feels about the same. I guess it would allow you to have both a mouse and a trackball both within short reach, which would be a plus.
Maltron split is more appropriate for old-skool typists like me.Given that the general design is so similar between the two split wise, I'm curious as to why you think the Maltron is more appropriate. Unless you're just referring to where they stick a given key by default?
I think that Maltron has more thumb keys.Maltron does have one to two more thumb keys. (Depends on whether you have a double width key turned into two smaller ones.) That said, I don't think the thumbs are really that great at fine motor movements to hit the smaller keys. Maybe it's just me, but while stronger, my thumbs are nowhere near as effective as my pointer digits on hitting varying small locations without fatigue. While I can hit the 4 main thumb keys on the Kinesis without any problem, the smaller ones just don't feel that natural in comparison. Even if the Maltron is better in that sense, I can't see myself really wanting to use my thumbs for small keys. (Even when positioning my hands for best comfort on hitting the thumb pads, the finger movement needed to actuate multiple smaller keys just feels awkward.) Given the fact that even the Maltron relegates the smaller keys to lesser used things (home/end/arrows/etc), I think they agree. Note that I have large hands though, so perhaps other people would have an issue even using the main thumb keys on the Kinesis.
Personally, I think the Maltron's separate Num Pad is a disadvantage, as you have to leave the home row (also for escape, etc). Non-tactile F and J key caps make this worse. Lillian Malt was a typing instructor and designed the general layout in the early 70's; it is geared more towards secretaries than programmers. That said, Kinesis puts square brackets into unusual positions.I agree with the numpad assessment. As for the brackets on the Kinesis, I personally find the arrow placement to be more unusual and downright confusing to use. Thanks to the programming ability of the Kinesis though, you can fix any placement problem easily. For instance, I've modified the embedded keypad keyboard level so that when toggled, ESDF become the arrow keys. Since I also have the foot pedal attachment, I can toggle that keyboard level hands free no less! There are too few keyboards out there with that level of flexibility.
You can probably badger Maltron into using brown Cherrys instead of blacks --- they are custom made. The Maltron case is made using vacuum forming, so it's a bent plastic sheet. MX-keys are snapped into this sheet and I assume the keys are basically individually wired to the controller, not PCB mounted (which would be difficult because of the 3-D design). I think the light construction is actually an advantage, as bottoming out forces are readily absorbed by the case.Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.
Ultimately, I ended up very satisfied with Datahand mechanics.I'd like to try a Datahand at some point, but given the price combined with the fact that the company is all but dead, I'm weary of investing into one.
They do support their keyboards long term though and they can repair / refurb old keyboards in the interests of ongoing support.For what it's worth, the Maltrons have a 1 year warranty while Kinesis have a 2 year warranty on their keyboards.
Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.
Supposedly the Maltron has been around since the 70s. Back then, linear switches were very popular/common, so maybe they've stuck to them because that are what their customers are used to by now.
Given that the general design is so similar between the two split wise, I'm curious as to why you think the Maltron is more appropriate. Unless you're just referring to where they stick a given key by default?
Maltron does have one to two more thumb keys. (Depends on whether you have a double width key turned into two smaller ones.) That said, I don't think the thumbs are really that great at fine motor movements to hit the smaller keys.
Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.
Also, while I know I'm coming off as almost anti-Maltron in these posts, I really don't have an axe to grind with them. I just see them as having stagnated. If they put half the effort into improving the design as originally went into inventing it, I'm sure they'd beat the Kinesis hands down. As it stands though, I'll stick with my Kinesis without any regret. Heck, I'll probably end up buying another Kinesis to hack into two eventually if they don't come out with their own split version.
The Maltron QWERTY layout matches the way I was taught touch typing, which is apparently "Old Skool". In particular, the split is between the 6 and 7 keys. I don't remember the details, but the Advantage is further removed from the standard layout than Maltron.I thought it might have something to do with the 6/7 split vs 5/6 split. But yeah, I will give you that the layout is a bit nonstandard when compared to a normal keyboard. Of course, the whole keyboard is nonstandard, so I didn't find the changes all too hard to pick up on. However, I also had the benefit of changing from improvised QWERTY touch typing to more or less by the books Dvorak touch typing when I moved to the Kinesis. This allowed me to keep the majority of my QWERTY typing speed on normal keyboards, while giving me a better experience on the Kinesis.
Kinesis seems to have become pretty conservative too (Freestyle instead of split contour, Maxim a re-badged Fujitsu (-Siemens)).I wont disagree there, but in the case of the Contour/Advantage, they have the luxury of having what is essentially the most updated/advanced version. So long as Maltron doesn't really do anything to raise the bar, Kinesis will have no competitive motive to advance their own. As far as I see it, the ball's in Maltron's court, and they're just sitting on it.
Their idea is that hand-soldering the point-to-point circuit results in better durability. While this is likely true for the wires to the keyswitches, I wonder if the connection to the controller holds.I question even the switches part. Humans are far more likely to mess up soldering or any other precision task when compared to a machine. While things like "hand made" always sound good, the fact of the matter is machines beat us at doing repetitive precision work long ago.
The DataHand is just so much better than all the rest..The whole DataHand ordeal pits me against myself. The impulsive part of me really wants to try it, price and bleak future be damned. The more reasonable side, however, holds me back every time. With such a low chance the company will ever recover or be bought out, I just cant bring myself to buy one. This isn't even a matter of the near future. It's a matter of the far future. I'm relatively young (25), and if I invest in something so different and get attached to it, what am I going to do 20, 30, 40+ years down the line if something breaks? It's such a radical departure from the normal keyboard, that there will probably never be anything made like it again. They're way too expensive to just stock up on for future parts.
Not that it is perfect. I can't rate it compared to other boards, if the other board gets a 9, then I should rate the DataHand a 10. But if that kind of layout and design was the standard, the DataHand would get 7/10, and there's room for improvement. It's a pity they never got there. There was a new version planned, the DataHand Spider, but then the **** started to hit the fan.
As for the fact that the DataHand could use improvements, it brings to light the down side to such a complex design: it is beyond the ability for any normal person to hack up a DIY version with improvements. With a standard keyboard concept, anybody willing to put in the time and effort could create any layout they wanted. The keyswitches and other parts are there, the wiring matrices are known, and all that is really needed is a way to hold it all together. The DataHand, however, would require access to a CNC machine or a 3D printer to even have a chance at creating a similar device. Pretty much every piece would have to be redesigned and recreated from the ground up.
At one point I want to take the finger and thumb units and logic boards out of their bulky cases, and integrate them in swivelable chair arm rests.
I've found a few tantalising hints that something nasty went on between Maltron and Kinesis but can't really find anything to back it up. It looks like anything that did occur was a while back so I wondered if it was within the collective memory but not written up anywhere.
I think the main reason I've been reluctant to post a negative review of the Maltron is they address a market space no one else does as well: the one-hand keyboard. If I was in need of a right-hand only board, I'd buy a Maltron in an instant: no hesitation. (I own a Maltron left-hand only keyboard.)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9110&stc=1&d=1271188550)
On a nearly-related note, I'm looking for the person who posted this image. Is this the forum where I nicked this picture? PM me if this is your relative.
I dislike it when people recommend Kinesis, but I supposed they don't know what they're doing.That or they simply don't care. A lot of people recommend products primarily based on the merits of the product - not the company behind the product. Personally, if I had to concern myself over every ethically questionable move that a company / manufacturer made, I'd be buying a heck of a lot less stuff. I'd certainly not be using a computer at any rate lol. Between the crazy lawsuits, patent abuse, price fixing, outsourcing, lies, etc., there's nary a company out there with a clean record.
At one point I want to take the finger and thumb units and logic boards out of their bulky cases, and integrate them in swivelable chair arm rests.
Am I seeing a Noctua-board?? :)
What did the shell cost?
Hi all,
...
Currently in the works is an updated model which will be programable. Also all future keyboars will be cable detachable. In respect to materials used, owing to the unique shape and design of them, we have explored alternative methods of production and struggled to move beyond vacuum forming. Our dual handed models and single handed models are very "deep" in terms of curvature and we have found that the most effective way of ensuring ergonomics is to vacuum form them.
...
Many thanks,
Adam
Marketing Chap at Maltron
Ah, well, it won't be long until you produce them with 3D printers. ;-)
Joe
Of course in dealing with these types of keyboards..."It's about the ergo, stupid." (Prez Clinton quote I still find funny, so no one get offended). That being said the positioning/placement/feel of the keys/keyboard/usage are 90% of what we mostly look at. Some is affected by programming different keys into different locations....some is not. And, like with most things, some people will find either Maltron or Kinesis more or less comfortable/effective depending on a variety of factors. But I'm sure that if we compared the two with 100 people, I'm so curious to know if there would be a big swing in one direction or the other or would it be relatively evenly split?
Personally I found the thumb keys better on the Kinesis, and I never had a problem with the shifts. Also the placement of Tab or backslash shouldn't be listed as a con in the Kinesis, because you can remap them. I changed the left backslash to do "Insert" (it has a backslash AND an Insert label anyway). And the tab ? Yes, I loved the tab on the Maltron, so I swapped Tab and Delete on the Kinesis to achieve the same effect!
Another advantage of the Kinesis is the 2nd layer it has. I also found that the Kinesis sent cleaner keycodes to the computer; for some keys the maltron seemed to send multiple key codes, like it sent a shift along with some keys, making it very hard to remap keys with software.
Overall my choice went to the Kinesis ... I've done some modifications to it as well, namely added several extra keys (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) to it.
it's a travesty both kinesis and maltron don't redesign their ergonomic keyboards. My nephews are my groomsman one is 21 and i think the kinesis/maltron designs are still older than him. Kinesis just needs to make a production copy of the ergodox, hey if what they are good at is taking a proven design (maltron) and putting it into production and shrinking the cost by 2/3's then go for it kinesis. Why the ergodox? it's basically a nice acceptable alternative that many have given their input on, me personally i'd want a concave ergodox with 2 levels of incline, i don't think kinesis could make that tho. Don't we have both a maltron and kinesis rep here? or at least they posted a while back.
I've just had this great thought (and it'll be great for 5 minutes and then I'll come to my senses).
Why don't we send manufacturers Christmas cards (or other suitable holiday related stuff) with images of what we want them to make...
Sorry for the threadcapping...
I know this an old thread, but this might be the most useful discussion I've found on the web comparing Maltron vs. the Kinesis Advantage. I am currently in possession of both (I will get rid of one), so I would like to contribute my bit to anybody that stumbles upon this thread.
After using both alternatively for a few days using the QWERTY layout, I must say that I prefer using the Maltron 89 series. Here are the strengths of the Maltron in my opinion:
Thumb keys. I prefer the depressed position of the thumb keys on the Maltron. The 89 series makes better use of these thumb keys than the 90 series Maltron or the Kinesis Advantage. The depressed position of the thumb keys compared the raised position of the Kinesis makes a difference for the farther away, smaller thumb keys and caused less hand strain with heavy typing.
The shift keys. The Maltron has those big shift keys, while the Kinesis Advantage had those tiny shift keys. When switching between the two keyboards, I made considerably more mistakes with the Kinesis. The pinky is not the most useful finger, so it helps to have a big shift key. But I've always had trouble with smaller shift keys.
Space between keys. The Maltron has more space between the keys and I find that very useful for reducing mistakes and not double typing. I think the Maltron is better suited for people with bigger fingers that always have trouble double-hitting keys.
Less concave shape. I'm not sure if that is the right term, but the Kinesis seems to have more curve to it. That made my fingers feel crowded in that typing position. Didn't like it. Plus that bottom row of the Kinesis was very uncomfortable to use.
F keys. I don't use these much, but those rubber pieces of crap on the Kinesis really need to be upgraded. And I can't imagine it will raise the price of the keyboard that much.
The Alt/tab combo. This has been criticized many times on the Kinesis Advantage. The location of the Alt/tab is wretched. Maltron did a good job putting the tab in the thumb keys.
Another perk with my particular used Maltron is that the parenthesis, brackets, slashes, and carrot things are on separate sides of the keyboards. This is much more useful than the normal location on any keyboard, and on the locations of the Kinesis. I also don't understand why Kinesis puts two backslash keys on the keyboards. What a waste.
After tearing apart the Kinesis Advantage, I will list what I like about it better than the Maltron.
Programmability That certainly is nice and a huge plus. I can move keys around like those poorly placed arrow keys and use different key layouts. If I don't like something on the Maltron, tough, I am stuck with it.
The big Backspace/Delete keys I like these better than 89 series Maltron's smaller keys on opposite sides of the keyboard.
Cherry MX red keys I preferred the Cherry MX red key switches on the Kinesis rather than the more resistant Cherry MX blacks on the Maltron. However, the harder to hit Cherry MX black keys do reduce mistakes because I can't type as fast.
Overall, I found the Maltron to be a more ergonomic design and more comfortable to use. I preferred the position of many keys, and the feel of the keyboard while using it. I made less mistakes with the Maltron. The Kinesis Advantage does have the huge advantage of programmability and a much lower price. However, I obtained a used Maltron for about the same price as the Kinesis, so price wasn't as large of a factor. I would have a lot of trouble justifying the purchase of new Maltron considering the rumored programmable Maltrons. I have an email from a Maltron representative say they are testing a prototype of a programmable keyboard at the moment. Should be interesting.
Great info and geat comparison info. Thank you.
Really needed and will be of help to many, including the companies.
Interesting thoughts on the key caps....really need your feedback on that.
I'm crying because I have an opportunity to get a Maltron at a very reasonable price in the next 2 weeks, but because of my immediate situation I can't justify the few hundred dollars. I'm crying big time...as most of you know, a Maltron will complete the split-Kinesis I have and some thumb cluster adjustments I wanted to do (using the Maltron measurements). Such a waste :(