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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: MANISH7 on Wed, 14 April 2010, 20:43:24
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I don't know how Project Natal will be for games but I think that the concept has promise for basic interface control. As long as you don't need uber precision. I know some windows icons are small so maybe the screen can have a laser dot that shows tracking of your finger movement so you know when to "press" in the air to click. I don't expect the first version of Natal to replace the mouse as these things take years and maybe decades. But it is the future. The mouse is good but we can do better.
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No, it's not the future, and neither are touchscreens (in a desktop environment) or glass keyboards. Just because something looks futuristic, doesn't mean it's practical. In the case of Natal, it suffers from the same thing that touchscreens suffer from in a desktop environment: gorilla arm. Natal's gesture based control is only useful for brief periods. If you had to keep your hand flapping around in the air for a couple hours, you'd be damn sore.
That and the sort of control that Natal can provide is completely lost in a desktop environment. The desktop is predominantly overlapping 2D windows with control buttons. An optimal control scheme for that environment is something that is precise and operates on a (surprise) 2D plane. Natal is inherently a 3D control scheme. Our entire OS interface would have to be redesigned from the ground up to really make use of it. Unfortunately once you have redesigned the OS to integrate well with a Natal-like control scheme, you'll have made it highly inconvenient to use by traditional 2D input devices. Thus you're then stuck waving your hand around in the air all day long.
If anything will could effectively replace the mouse for general purpose work, it'd be a large mousepad sized trackpad with advanced gesture recognition. Even that has its drawbacks though, both ergonomically and functionally.
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I agree with the above criticisms. Whatever we'll be doing for input in the future, it won't involve making big arm motions for hours. And I've a feeling that unless they make some kind of haptic (tactile) feedback we won't quite enjoy their solution either. Could happen though.
For now, I think Skinput sounds promising as mentioned before. Tapping controls on your own skin is very tactile and can be done ergonomically. It'll be a while before they can deliver something to replace the mouse of course - hard to say how long, exactly.
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The ultimate answer to Project Natal?
Project Go Outside.
Seriously though, the OP was only referring to Natal replacing mouse input, rather than create total VR environments. How GH of me to go way off course.
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The ultimate answer to Project Natal?
Project Go Outside.
This. I hate being stuck inside, I would much rather go outside. With the generally good weather we have here (albeit hot at times), kids, including me, can go outside pretty much year-round. Ironically, we have one of the highest child obesity rates in the country.
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The ultimate answer to Project Natal?
Project Go Outside.
Seriously though, the OP was only referring to Natal replacing mouse input, rather than create total VR environments. How GH of me to go way off course.
i STRONGLY agree with you! i'd much rather play volley ball outside in the beach or go ride a bicycle in the forest than VR.
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In the case of Natal, it suffers from the same thing that touchscreens suffer from in a desktop environment: gorilla arm. Natal's gesture based control is only useful for brief periods. If you had to keep your hand flapping around in the air for a couple hours, you'd be damn sore.
That and the sort of control that Natal can provide is completely lost in a desktop environment. The desktop is predominantly overlapping 2D windows with control buttons. An optimal control scheme for that environment is something that is precise and operates on a (surprise) 2D plane. Natal is inherently a 3D control scheme. Our entire OS interface would have to be redesigned from the ground up to really make use of it. Unfortunately once you have redesigned the OS to integrate well with a Natal-like control scheme, you'll have made it highly inconvenient to use by traditional 2D input devices. Thus you're then stuck waving your hand around in the air all day long.
You raise some valid concerns but I don't entirely agree. I was thinking of pointing your finger at the screen and moving it for tracking. I don't think that's any more demanding than holding the mouse in a rigid way and moving it around. It's definitely more ergonomic since your hands are free to be positioned however you like rather than having to conform to the mouse shape & position. I'll agree to disagree on this.
As for 3D, here's a screen shot of my desktop with windows 7. Windows 7 lets me view and switch windows in a 3d manner. It's pretty cool.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/hobgoblin707/3d.jpg)
So I don't think 3D OS will be a problem. I'm sure MS is exaggerating just how well Natal will gel with Windows 7 but it will be released for Windows too.
We have to use our imagination. If I were alive 100 years ago I could have never imagined people would fly on planes or that we could record sound and video of people by 1s and 0s. Amazing stuff.
I won't compare motion based input to touch screens or glass keyboard which I agree are going to have limited use.
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I agree with the above criticisms. Whatever we'll be doing for input in the future, it won't involve making big arm motions for hours. And I've a feeling that unless they make some kind of haptic (tactile) feedback we won't quite enjoy their solution either. Could happen though.
I agree that it can't involve making "big arm motions". Just modest finger pointing and "clicking" in the air. That's definitely doable, comfortable, and ergonomic. They customize the occasional gestures to be ergonomic movements in the air. Even if this is a little more tiring than mouse use (I'm not sure that it is), it will be more ergonomic and therefore more sustainable in the long run.
As for tactility, I agree regarding keyboards. Surprisingly, the mouse is easier to improve upon than the keyboard. This is of course why people still use IBM keyboards from the late 80s which are better than most keyboards made today. Not much improvement has been made. Tactility is very important for the keyboard but not so much for the mouse IMO. Of course, the future of keyboard is speech recognition but that will take decades to get to.
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Actually I DID get a voice operated Alarm Clock just yesterday. (http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/lights/d280/) It's hilarious because I think a LOT of this technology still has a hard time figuring out humans.
>[/youtube]
Bridget Carey=hot.
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Bridget Carey=hot.
She's going for the geek girl look. Notice the still frame of Bridget resembles Ripster's avatar?
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The optimal viewing angle for your screen is slightly down (not lying flat on the table for instance) - like most people have their monitors today. Exercise: Point at your monitor for five minutes. See what I mean?
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That turns out not to be the case. The effective viewing angle of LCD screens varies by 90 degree increments, and is determined by the OEM availability, and manufacturer product spec. When a manufacturer buys screens for a particular device, the mfr specifies whether it's to be a 12 o'clock screen (to be viewed from slightly above), 6 o'clock (to be viewed from below) viewing angle. The OEM then delivers appropriate screens.
Theoretically 3 o'clock (right), or 9 o'clock (left) are possible but in real life I've never heard of anyone ordering one.
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Let's hope that whatever it is that MS comes up with, they don't make it here. (http://www.news.com.au/technology/microsoft-accused-of-52c-an-hour-slaves/story-e6frfro0-1225854187905)
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That turns out not to be the case.
We're talking about different things: I'm talking about ergonomics. Screens are made to be ergonomic to use, therefore you get these specs. Some screens will be suited for viewing from below or whatnot, but that's not the screen I want to be using while sitting at my workplace. Rather, it's a screen made for airports and the like. I think that viewing slightly downwards but not too much gives a pleasant neck angle. Of course, it's possible to look more downwards like we do when reading a sheet of paper, but when I read a book and get comfortable I hold it at approximately the same angle that my monitor is at.
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i have a dell 2209wa ips panel with ergonomic stand. i can view it from a wide range of angles and the ergonomic stand lets me adjust the screen at any angle i please.
i don't think the monitor position will have bearing. project natal simply needs to track a finger movement. hand - eye coordination will take care of the rest.
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Let's hope that whatever it is that MS comes up with, they don't make it here. (http://www.news.com.au/technology/microsoft-accused-of-52c-an-hour-slaves/story-e6frfro0-1225854187905)
52c an hour, thats shockingley cruel.
they should make microsoft products really bad and revolt
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We're talking about different things
I hate it when that happens. :-)