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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: T0mb3ry on Sun, 10 June 2018, 16:56:34
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Hello fellow geeks.
In this thread i'd like to tell you about my experiment i did recently which had the goal to improve typing feel or at least make it different.
The subject for my experiment is a plate which i made for my CA66 keyboard. Before i introduce you the plate, i'd like to explain the idea.
The Idea
I got already few custom keyboards and most of them are 65% layouts. However compared to TKL Keyboard for example are smaller layouts like 65% stiffer in typing feel. This is actually not a bad thing but lets be honest larger layot keyboard have smoother typing feel. And the reason for this is the flexing of the plate. Sure there are other factors like switches, plate material, etc. Anyway i'd like to point out here particulary the size of the plate, which is crucial for the flexing and the typing feel. To say more precise its about the distance between mounting points. You can compare it to the guitar strings if you like. Short strings are stiffer and provide higher freqency sound where long strings are more flexible and have deeper sound.
So the idea is to increase the distance between the mounting points of the plate with extensions.
The plate
For this experiment i've decided to use CA66 keyboard, because it has plenty of space inside the case, which can be utilized for the plate extensions. PlayKeyboardTW provided me the cad file for the plate and i am very thankfull him for this. Otherwise i hade to recreate the original CA66 plate first and this would take some time.
Anyway let me show you the implementation of those extensions.
(https://i.imgur.com/lH2Qw04.jpg)
As you can see i made those extensions horizontaly in order to save space. To be honest this is not the optimal extension placements, because for optimal result the extension should begin at the mounting points in order to provide balance.
Anyway whole flexing moves are now done by those extensions. Say whole plate with pcb is now able to move up and down. The plate is made of carbon fiber because it does not bend like metal and is stiff enough for such extensions.
(https://i.imgur.com/WDVptlf.jpg)
The extensions made the plate slightly larger but overall its actually acceptable increase in space. To utilize such plate in a keyboard you have to plan it from the start or provide some space inside the case. For example you cant make such plate for most already existing keyboards due to the missing space.
Now let me show you how flexible those extensions are:
Plate in its usual position
(https://i.imgur.com/7esMNZC.jpg)
and here you can see how the extensions allow the plate to move down. Tho keep in mind i had to use some force to bend it this way and usually the plate will never go down that low. During the typing, the plate moves probably not more than 500 micrometers.
(https://i.imgur.com/QjAVkqi.jpg)
Conclusion
I've typed this whole topic on my CA66 with this plate and i had not the feel i am typing on a small keyboard. For refernce it has lubed retooled cherries with 50g springs. These are pretty light switches and this is how i like it. Compared to my Canoes (also retooled light cherries) the typing feel much softer, even softer than my tkl keyboard. I could even feel with the pinky how the plate flexes all the time of typing. Tho keep in mind it does not provide mushy feel. The typing feel is just about right. It softens downstroke in a pleasing way. Tray mounted keyboards do feel like typing on a brick or concrete in comparisson to this. Tho as i said there are some things which are not optimal. For example CA66 has almost no space for lower part of plate to move down. I think if it had more space the bottom row would feel much better.
Note: I've tested that plate only with linear switches and its designed for linear switches. How it may affect bumpy switches i dont know but i assume it might lower the bump feel of the switch.
So in the end i am pretty much happy with the result. And i recommend keyboard designers to consider such plate (tho optimized and improved) for their next possible projects.
If you has some questions feel free to ask.
Thanks for reading :D
SVG File with the plate.
[attachimg=1]
Keep in mind the plate covers only following layout.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1750/41982237244_0a91642481_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26XPWuC)IMG_6696 (https://flic.kr/p/26XPWuC) by T0mb3ry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151659186@N03/), auf Flickr
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Interesting read - thank you!
There is so much potential for mods like this with plates. I never tried carbon fibre, but it looks like it worked for you which is great :thumb:
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I don't understand the story.. Who is the villain, the hero, the victim, the support character w/untapped potential.
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This is a really brilliant idea. One thing I don't think you mentioned: even with larger boards the typing feeling is much stiffer around the edges (F keys, arrow keys, bottom mods) where the switches are mounted near the plate mount points, while the alphas are usually the most comfortable as they are given the most leeway to flex. The genius part of this mod to me is that it allows all of the switches across the entire board to flex more, including the ones at the top and bottom edges. I think the middle row would still flex more than the outer rows, but depending on the material of the plate vs. the material of these expansion tabs, you might be able to even out the typing feel across all of the switches on the board.
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This is a super interesting concept. Would love to see it on a purpose built board or a least try this in person.
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How would you compare this typing feel to that of a polycarb plate in the same situation?
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This is a really brilliant idea. One thing I don't think you mentioned: even with larger boards the typing feeling is much stiffer around the edges (F keys, arrow keys, bottom mods) where the switches are mounted near the plate mount points, while the alphas are usually the most comfortable as they are given the most leeway to flex. The genius part of this mod to me is that it allows all of the switches across the entire board to flex more, including the ones at the top and bottom edges. I think the middle row would still flex more than the outer rows, but depending on the material of the plate vs. the material of these expansion tabs, you might be able to even out the typing feel across all of the switches on the board.
Your are absolutely right. The closer the switch to the mounting point is - the stiffer it gets.
Yeah this approach allows also to make flexing evenly. Whats why i was saying what the plate i did is still not optimized. There should be done some math in order to balance whole flexing evenly across the plate. But that can only be done for completely new board.
How would you compare this typing feel to that of a polycarb plate in the same situation?
I've never typed on a polycarb plate before. Cant say really. Tho i got pcb mounted board but thats very different in feel if you ask me.
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Very interesting experiment! I hope there'll be follow ups because I'd like to see where this is going. :thumb:
Do you think carbon fibre is best suited for this type of plate or could it also work with more traditional materials such as steel and brass?
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Do you think carbon fibre is best suited for this type of plate or could it also work with more traditional materils such as steel and brass?
Probably only stainless steel would work. But i highly recommend CF because stainless still may deform anyway. CF does not deform because it breaks if you bend it over its limits.
Actually i see not a minor reason not to use CF for such plate. The force put on those extensions is actually big other time. Imagine 360+ keystrokes per minute. Thats a lot.
Also you want to make main plate as stiff as possible and let the extension do the flex work. That way you will be able to provide more consistent type feel over all keys regardless their postion.
CF is the way to go.
In case for aesthetics. You can color CF plate as you like. If you like brass then you can make also double layered plate. Brass plate on top of CF plate (actually very nice idea ;) ). As i said the properties of a CF plate are here important and it has nothing to do with coolness factor of CF material.
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Have the same problem with my plate, arrived bent :(
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I love the idea behind this!
I'd love to see a board built around this idea. One of my favorite MX builds I've done was a pcb mount linear 60%. I used an FMJ case which does not have any center standoffs. This allows the pcb to flex quite a bit when typing, and I love the feel of it other than the fact that it was so uneven as the edges were stiff and the middle was more flexible.
Looking forwards to more updates on this :thumb:
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Did some short video on my instagramm acount about the experimental plate in action.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj7ztsFjyXp/?taken-by=t0mb3ry_gh
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Do you think carbon fibre is best suited for this type of plate or could it also work with more traditional materils such as steel and brass?
Probably only stainless steel would work. But i highly recommend CF because stainless still may deform anyway. CF does not deform because it breaks if you bend it over its limits.
Actually i see not a minor reason not to use CF for such plate. The force put on those extensions is actually big other time. Imagine 360+ keystrokes per minute. Thats a lot.
Also you want to make main plate as stiff as possible and let the extension do the flex work. That way you will be able to provide more consistent type feel over all keys regardless their postion.
CF is the way to go.
In case for aesthetics. You can color CF plate as you like. If you like brass then you can make also double layered plate. Brass plate on top of CF plate (actually very nice idea ;) ). As i said the properties of a CF plate are here important and it has nothing to do with coolness factor of CF material.
Thanks for the informative reply! Sure sounds like CF is the way to go then. The double layered plate with CF+brass sounds very interesting! Do you think your experiments will take you down this path as welll for further investigations? ;D
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Thanks for the informative reply! Sure sounds like CF is the way to go then. The double layered plate with CF+brass sounds very interesting! Do you think your experiments will take you down this path as welll for further investigations? ;D
Oh i think this particular experiment is done for me. I got this idea some years ago and i was always curious if it will make it what i am expecting. And it did. I am satisfied with the experience and i am glad i was able to share it with you. Tho i wish you all could test it in person and make your own conclusion. In the end i am hoping some of the keyboard makers will implement this feature in their projects. Atleast they are aware of it.
In case of the brass plate (on top of CF plate): I think it does not need any testing. Its obvious the main plate (excluding extensions) will gets stiffer and heavier. The additional weight from the brass will have minor effect since 1.5 strong cf extensions will handle it easily. For example i've unscrewed some mounting points from the keyboard and the plate is held only by 4 screws and four extensions. And it still provides solid and robust hold. The extra stiffnes is actually very positive for this approach because in the best case scenario the main plate should be stiff as possible and flexing moves should be done only by extensions in order to provide consistent typing feel.
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This is a really brilliant idea. One thing I don't think you mentioned: even with larger boards the typing feeling is much stiffer around the edges (F keys, arrow keys, bottom mods) where the switches are mounted near the plate mount points, while the alphas are usually the most comfortable as they are given the most leeway to flex. The genius part of this mod to me is that it allows all of the switches across the entire board to flex more, including the ones at the top and bottom edges. I think the middle row would still flex more than the outer rows, but depending on the material of the plate vs. the material of these expansion tabs, you might be able to even out the typing feel across all of the switches on the board.
Your are absolutely right. The closer the switch to the mounting point is - the stiffer it gets.
Yeah this approach allows also to make flexing evenly. Whats why i was saying what the plate i did is still not optimized. There should be done some math in order to balance whole flexing evenly across the plate. But that can only be done for completely new board.
How would you compare this typing feel to that of a polycarb plate in the same situation?
I've never typed on a polycarb plate before. Cant say really. Tho i got pcb mounted board but thats very different in feel if you ask me.
I had one board that had PCB mounted switches. I loved the feeling/flex of he board but I gave it away because it was too big. I wonder if you wouldn't be happier with this type of board vs. a plate mounted type switch.
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This sounds really interesting! Did you also try the default plate that (supposedly) came together with the board to see the difference or do you think it's the same for all boards of this size?
Really love DYI works like this and while I myself am not (yet?) a big "customizer" (except for maybe switches), I really enjoy at least reading about this aspect of this hobby!
Would it be possible to get that plate file? As far as I've seen, the regular CA66 plate is already linked in the OP of the GB.
I understand of course, if you'd rather not share it..! (pretty cautious at this point, since I already annoyed others by asking for source files.. :-X)
Thanks for taking your time for this write-up!
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I had one board that had PCB mounted switches. I loved the feeling/flex of he board but I gave it away because it was too big. I wonder if you wouldn't be happier with this type of board vs. a plate mounted type switch.
This is not comparable with pcb mounted board. It feels different. To compare switches for example, are very stable because of plate so it will never feel like pcb mounted.
Also i said it does not make typing "better". It makes it different. For my personal preference the bottoming out does feel better. ;)
This sounds really interesting! Did you also try the default plate that (supposedly) came together with the board to see the difference or do you think it's the same for all boards of this size?
I've described the cause previously. In general the smaller the distance between mounting points of plate the stiffer it gets. Its physics. So smaller keyboards are stiffer. Depens also on how the mounting points are implemented.
Would it be possible to get that plate file? As far as I've seen, the regular CA66 plate is already linked in the OP of the GB.
I understand of course, if you'd rather not share it..! (pretty cautious at this point, since I already annoyed others by asking for source files.. :-X)
Thanks for taking your time for this write-up!
Yeah i will share the SVG File during this week. I have to correct something before.
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how does it sound
i might add this to my tkl plate
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I've added SVG File to the first post in this thread. Usually every serious CFK online shop will be able to make the plate for you from this SVG file.
Keep in mind the plate covers only following layout:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1750/41982237244_0a91642481_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26XPWuC)IMG_6696 (https://flic.kr/p/26XPWuC) by T0mb3ry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151659186@N03/), auf Flickr
how does it sound
i might add this to my tkl plate
I made an video on my instagram which i posted here already. But that is not a reference since you need to hear it in person in order to get proper conclusion. Afaik from sources CA66 is a loud keyboard. Tho i did not heard the default plate in person. However with this plate the typing sound deeper as you would expect from small layouts.
By the way how you would add that plate to your tkl keyboard? As i said you need some space inside for extensions...
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how does it sound
i might add this to my tkl plate
I made an video on my instagram which i posted here already. But that is not a reference since you need to hear it in person in order to get proper conclusion. Afaik from sources CA66 is a loud keyboard. Tho i did not heard the default plate in person. However with this plate the typing sound deeper as you would expect from small layouts.
By the way how you would add that plate to your tkl keyboard? As i said you need some space inside for extensions...
i'll make a case that works with it
i'm already designing a case, so can't hurt to do some prototyping
i might be able to do it so that it doesn't flex QUITE as much as your version
we'll see
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i'll make a case that works with it
i'm already designing a case, so can't hurt to do some prototyping
i might be able to do it so that it doesn't flex QUITE as much as your version
we'll see
My plate does not flex as much as you say. I push it down with my hand to show off how far it can go down but during typing it flexes very little but effective. Keep in mind shortening extension may make your plate too stiff. Say your extension would give you nothing.
I suggest you to make adjustable extensions. You just need to add few mounting points per extension.
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i'll make a case that works with it
i'm already designing a case, so can't hurt to do some prototyping
i might be able to do it so that it doesn't flex QUITE as much as your version
we'll see
My plate does not flex as much as you say. I push it down with my hand to show off how far it can go down but during typing it flexes very little but effective. Keep in mind shortening extension may make your plate too stiff. Say your extension would give you nothing.
I suggest you to make adjustable extensions. You just need to add few mounting points per extension.
i want it to be jane mounts, i expect to make like 4 or 5 different revisions to the plate before i settle on a final version
this project is at least 6 months out from being ready for the IC phase so i'll test some things and see what works
the money from RR and yolch is probably going into this project
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Bump
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Just got new version of the plate prototype.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ay8b2I96c/
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T0mb3ry, sorry to hijack, but since you know so much about plates, I was wondering about your opinion on something.
If you were putting Zilents [silent tactiles] on a TKL, which plate of 2 would you use: brass, or polycarbonate? [Half or full is also an option.]
I'm asking because I'm getting a custom, and I see people mounting what are basically light MX Clears [the Zealios and Zilents] on both brass and polycarb plates, so I'm not sure what to get.
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T0mb3ry, sorry to hijack, but since you know so much about plates, I was wondering about your opinion on something.
If you were putting Zilents [silent tactiles] on a TKL, which plate of 2 would you use: brass, or polycarbonate? [Half or full is also an option.]
I'm asking because I'm getting a custom, and I see people mounting what are basically light MX Clears [the Zealios and Zilents] on both brass and polycarb plates, so I'm not sure what to get.
I am definitely not a guru of plates. The reason i am doing this here is the obvious problem of keyboards with plates. Those are stiff and actually rather unpleasant to type on if you compare it for example with vintage plateless cherry keyboards. But plate gives great stability to the switches - so the keycaps are less wobbly. This here is the solution how to get the best from both worlds. It still will not get you the same feel of plateless switch but it softens bottom out, makes whole build quiter (or rather sound different) and makes it a joy to type on it.
Now back to your question. Zilents have rubberrized impact points on sliders which will minimize the impact on bottom/top out and i don't think you will get noticeable difference from any plate (in terms of bottom and top out). Regarding if you get more tactile feels from any those plates i can't say much because i am fully into linears. If you want to know which plate is better for tactile switches then you should probably ask Brian from TopClack, as far as i know he is a tactile guru. He also invented the Holly Pandas if i remember it right.
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Thanks for the advice.
Yeah, Zilents have a rubber bottom-out, which I find helpful [because I know how it will feel, so it thereby lessens the impact of choosing the plate].
If it were straight-out Zealios I were using, I would probably choose the Polycarb full-plate.
Half-plates are also an option for those seeking a more plateless feel, I suppose.
You're right about the allure of plateless. I almost got on the JER-A06 group buy, because I want to try MX Browns as they were intended - plateless.
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If someone is interested then you can try flexing plate on Thermal keyboard by RAMA and Wilba.
https://ramaworks.store/products/foundry-thermal
This is probably the first custom keyboard implementing the idea of full flexing plate. ;)
I hope to see more makers to utilize this idea because it truly improves typing experience.
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Ok i am releasing new version of the plate which does fit the CA66 without any issues (at least in my case).
Before getting the plate file there are few notes to read through:
- It is only for personal use!
- This is an experimental plate and there is no guarantee or what ever. Use it on your own risk!
- I highly suggest to lower expectation before trying it. This is just proof of concept and it is not optimal by any means. The length of extensions is not adjustable - which should be the case if we consider what every person has its own preference how much flex they would like to have. There are also factors like spring strength etc. It needs to be individually adjustable. There are many of possibilities how to implement such adjustable extensions but in this case you can only choose between 4 or 8 fix points. The more fix points you use the more stiff it gets. I personally use only 4 fix points for my light linear switches (50g).
- The plate moves constantly while typing. If there is any friction in you switches (say your switches are scratchy) it will amplify the scratchy feel beyond good and evil. My suggestion is to install only extremely smooth switches (carefully sorted vintage blacks or tealios for example). I've done two builds with it and i know what i am talking about. In my first build it was really a dilemma.
- I've tried one tactile switch (zealio) on the plate and i can't say if there is an improvement in tactility. In my honest opinion the idea of flexing plate benefits mostly linear switches. I don't want to say you should not try it with tactiles. Probably there are some benefits but i can't feel any from trying only one switch. Usually i am against making a conclusion of just one switch. You can get proper conclusion only after typing in several sessions on a fully assembled board. So all those switch testers are pretty useless.
- Since the plate is moving up and down it needs some space for its movement. Especially for the down movement. CA66 is not designed for the flexing plate thus the plate will hit with its bottom pcb edge against the bottom piece/plate. You need to add some band aid to the impact points. If you are using GMK screw in stabs like me, then you have to add band aid at the points there the screws are. Otherwise you will get nice metal sound every time you will hit the spacebar.
Otherwise if you got time and money to make this plate, then enjoy the experiment. You might like or not but it would be nice if you could share your experience.
[attach=1]
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That's a super cool idea.
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